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View Full Version : Could Todd Frazier win Rookie of the Year?



batsfan
07-25-2012, 09:00 PM
According to the Fangraphs rookie leaderboard, Todd Fraizer has a 1.9 WAR compared to Bryce Harper's 1.6 - even though he has almost 100 less at bats. He is batting .015 points higher, hitting many more extra base hits and home runs, and walking at about the same rate. If they both continue to play like this for the rest of the season, does anyone think Frazier has any chance to win Rookie of the Year, or is Harper a lock if he can put up decent numbers due to his age and status as "future star"?


Edit: I forgot to mention that Fraizer's 1.9 WAR also leads all rookie batters in the NL. However, Wade Miley, Lance Lynn, and Michael Fiers all have higher WARs as pitchers.

LegallyMinded
07-25-2012, 09:09 PM
Frazier certainly has the stats to back up a Rookie of the Year win, but I think barring injury or a prolonged slump from Harper, Frazier doesn't have a realistic chance. The one other scenario I could see leading to a Frazier win is if the Reds win the NL Central while the Nationals fade down the stretch, leading to more face time and press coverage for Frazier, but even then, it's going to be hard to overcome Harper's advantage based on his age, potential and media exposure.

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2012, 09:12 PM
Hard to say. How much playing time will Frazier receive once Votto is back? Also, I'm sure Harper will receive extra accolades for being much younger than Frazier is.

You can't overlook Simmons from the Braves. He's actually put up similar numbers in even fewer ABs than Frazier has. But really, Wade Miley is making a pretty strong case he should be the ROY as of now.

redsmetz
07-25-2012, 09:16 PM
Here's the piece I put in the other Frazier thread from SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/baseball/mlb/07/23/todd-frazier-reds-jake-bullinger/index.html

oneupper
07-25-2012, 09:41 PM
Hard to say. How much playing time will Frazier receive once Votto is back? Also, I'm sure Harper will receive extra accolades for being much younger than Frazier is.

You can't overlook Simmons from the Braves. He's actually put up similar numbers in even fewer ABs than Frazier has. But really, Wade Miley is making a pretty strong case he should be the ROY as of now.

Age is not a criterion, as far as I know. Heck, Ichiro won the award at 28 and was hardly a rookie in the "greenhorn" sense.

DGullett35
07-25-2012, 09:54 PM
To answer the question. Yes he could but reality is that he wont. Harper will win it just because the name on his jersey and the fans loving the young superstar. However Id bet that at the end of the year Frazier will have made a very compelling argument. He really has saved this Reds team with his versatility and clutch bat.

westofyou
07-25-2012, 10:39 PM
Age is not a criterion, as far as I know. Heck, Ichiro won the award at 28 and was hardly a rookie in the "greenhorn" sense.

Only in the NHL

I believe you have to be over 27, I think the European invasion caused the rule to be introduced

fearofpopvol1
07-25-2012, 10:48 PM
Age is not a criterion, as far as I know. Heck, Ichiro won the award at 28 and was hardly a rookie in the "greenhorn" sense.

Didn't mean to imply it was an official criterion, but rather, sports writers may give Harper the edge because his numbers are similar to Frazier and he is much younger.

klw
07-26-2012, 09:22 AM
I think Wade Miley is probably the favorite at this point despite the hype for Harper.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2012-value-pitching.shtml#players_value_pitching::11
Miley has posted 2.6 WAR to date.

DGullett35
07-26-2012, 10:45 AM
I think Wade Miley is probably the favorite at this point despite the hype for Harper.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2012-value-pitching.shtml#players_value_pitching::11
Miley has posted 2.6 WAR to date.

I had forgot about Miley. He has had one heck of a year. This may be off-topic but talking about WAR. Did you guys know that Johnny Cueto has the second highest WAR of all pitchers in the MLB behind only Verlander. i thought that was amazing

Benihana
07-26-2012, 10:46 AM
ESPN Insider wrote about this very topic yesterday.

MikeThierry
07-26-2012, 11:55 AM
According to the Fangraphs rookie leaderboard, Todd Fraizer has a 1.9 WAR compared to Bryce Harper's 1.6 - even though he has almost 100 less at bats. He is batting .015 points higher, hitting many more extra base hits and home runs, and walking at about the same rate. If they both continue to play like this for the rest of the season, does anyone think Frazier has any chance to win Rookie of the Year, or is Harper a lock if he can put up decent numbers due to his age and status as "future star"?


Edit: I forgot to mention that Fraizer's 1.9 WAR also leads all rookie batters in the NL. However, Wade Miley, Lance Lynn, and Michael Fiers all have higher WARs as pitchers.

Lynn doesn't qualify as a rookie this year becaus he pitched too many innings in the bullpen last year.

I just don't see Fraizer winning it. The media has already determined the Golden Child in Washington as ROY.

This brings up another issue I have with ROY. Why do they not separate the pitchers and hitters? Why not give a Rookie Pitcher of the Year award and Offensive Rookie of the Year award? I think it would be more fair.

DGullett35
07-26-2012, 12:01 PM
This brings up another issue I have with ROY. Why do they not separate the pitchers and hitters? Why not give a Rookie Pitcher of the Year award and Offensive Rookie of the Year award? I think it would be more fair.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this statement 100%. The NFL does this with defensive and offensive ROY.

savafan
07-26-2012, 02:05 PM
There's precedent for Harper winning. Looking back to 1988, Reds' media darling Chris Sabo won the award over Mark Grace, who had the better overall season.

Also in 1989 when Dwight Smith played well above teammate Jerome Walton only to lose the Rookie of the Year award to Walton.

PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 02:14 PM
There's precedent for Harper winning. Looking back to 1988, Reds' media darling Chris Sabo won the award over Mark Grace, who had the better overall season.



Baseball reference had Sabo with a 4.8 WAR, Grace only 0.7. FanGraphs has them 4.9-1.2.

savafan
07-26-2012, 02:25 PM
Baseball reference had Sabo with a 4.8 WAR, Grace only 0.7. FanGraphs has them 4.9-1.2.

These numbers didn't even exist in 1988 :lol:

Sabo put up a hash line of .271/.314/.414 while Grace's numbers were .296/.371/.403. There's not really any way you can convince me that Sabo was the better player, and I love Spuds.

Homer Bailey
07-26-2012, 02:32 PM
These numbers didn't even exist in 1988 :lol:

Sabo put up a hash line of .271/.314/.414 while Grace's numbers were .296/.371/.403. There's not really any way you can convince me that Sabo was the better player, and I love Spuds.

WAR didn't exist, but recognition of good defense did. Not to mention position scarcity at 3B over first base, and the fact that Sabo stole 46 bases.

PuffyPig
07-26-2012, 03:08 PM
These numbers didn't even exist in 1988 :lol:

Sabo put up a hash line of .271/.314/.414 while Grace's numbers were .296/.371/.403. There's not really any way you can convince me that Sabo was the better player, and I love Spuds.

But speed and defense certainly mattered then, as it does today.

MrCinatit
07-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Mike Trout will win it in both leagues, because he is that awesome.




Off topic, but showing my age: I could only think of Steve Trout for a moment.

westofyou
07-26-2012, 04:38 PM
Mike Trout will win it in both leagues, because he is that awesome.




Off topic, but showing my age: I could only think of Steve Trout for a moment.
Ya Mean Dizzy Trouts kid?

savafan
07-26-2012, 08:48 PM
But speed and defense certainly mattered then, as it does today.

I didn't expect it to be a debate, but then, this is a Reds board. Sure, Sabo's .966 fielding percentage certainly trumped Grace's .987 fielding percentage, and while Sabes did steal 46 bases, he also was thrown out 14 times that season. Couple that with the fact that he didn't get on base near as often as Grace, and you have to start to accept that Sabo won because he was the media darling.

camisadelgolf
07-26-2012, 08:58 PM
I didn't expect it to be a debate, but then, this is a Reds board. Sure, Sabo's .966 fielding percentage certainly trumped Grace's .987 fielding percentage, and while Sabes did steal 46 bases, he also was thrown out 14 times that season. Couple that with the fact that he didn't get on base near as often as Grace, and you have to start to accept that Sabo won because he was the media darling.
That may be why Sabo won--the media darlings usually seem to win--but Sabo was clearly the superior player to Grace back in '88. Sure, Grace got on base more that year, and I don't mean to devalue that. But Sabo did everything else better. More power (7 home runs from a first baseman just isn't that impressive), elite defense (yes, elite--compared to Grace's bad defense at first), better base-running (a plus ability for Sabo and a negative ability for Grace), etc.

Sabo was one of the easier selections, and surprisingly, the writers got it right that year. Mark Grace shouldn't have even been in the top-3+ for Rookie of the Year conversation. Just ask Ron Gant, Robbie Alomar, Tim Belcher, and others who were more deserving.

savafan
07-26-2012, 09:14 PM
That may be why Sabo won--the media darlings usually seem to win--but Sabo was clearly the superior player to Grace back in '88. Sure, Grace got on base more that year, and I don't mean to devalue that. But Sabo did everything else better. More power (7 home runs from a first baseman just isn't that impressive), elite defense (yes, elite--compared to Grace's bad defense at first), better base-running (a plus ability for Sabo and a negative ability for Grace), etc.

Sabo was one of the easier selections, and surprisingly, the writers got it right that year. Mark Grace shouldn't have even been in the top-3+ for Rookie of the Year conversation. Just ask Ron Gant, Robbie Alomar, Tim Belcher, and others who were more deserving.

Gant and Alomar? Okay, if OPS seems to be the best barometer for a player's offensive worth, then considering that Grace had the highest OPS among he, Sabo, Gant, and Alomar in 1988 would show he had the better season among those 4, no?

Tony Cloninger
07-26-2012, 09:36 PM
Sabo got off to a .300+ start (When BA meant you were a good hitter) and he hit a lot of doubles. He tailed off badly last 2 months. Should have led the NL in 2B but he just stopped hitting.

Tom Servo
08-11-2012, 01:27 PM
Frazier continues to up his stats. Right now I'd say he should logically be ahead of Haper, with only Wade Miley currently standing in his way. A few bad outings could swing the momentum Frazier's way.

Roy Tucker
08-11-2012, 01:34 PM
I will also say that Frazier has been a better player this year than what I expected. More SLG and more OBP than what I thought he'd do.

He's been a pleasant surprise in my eyes.

Hoosier Red
08-11-2012, 02:58 PM
There's precedent for Harper winning. Looking back to 1988, Reds' media darling Chris Sabo won the award over Mark Grace, who had the better overall season.

Also in 1989 when Dwight Smith played well above teammate Jerome Walton only to lose the Rookie of the Year award to Walton.

I'm not sure Sabo was more of a media darling (outside of Cincinnati) than Grace anyway. He certainly wouldn't have had more exposure as nearly every Cubs game was on TV nationwide in those days.

I know the Cubs weren't as overexposed in other media outlets as they are today. But they still got a lot more attention than the Reds.


Gant and Alomar? Okay, if OPS seems to be the best barometer for a player's offensive worth, then considering that Grace had the highest OPS among he, Sabo, Gant, and Alomar in 1988 would show he had the better season among those 4, no?

I think it would be overly simplistic to say any one stat is the best barometer. In those days, when very few people paid attention to stats like OBP, SLG, or anything outside of the triple crown stats, I don't think they were looking at OPS in making their decisions.

Grace's numbers(.296 BA, 7 HR, 57 RBI) were modestly better than Sabo's (.271 BA, 11 HR, 44 RBI) but when factoring in the other related ways we can analyze the game, I don't think his numbers were so far and above Sabo's that he deserved to win the award if only not for Sabo having the media wrapped around his pinky.

That said, if ever there were a year for a Reds rookie to compete with a Cubs rookie for media attention, it was certainly 1988 with the all-star game and bicentennial bringing some extra attention to the Queen City.

Wonderful Monds
08-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Frazier continues to up his stats. Right now I'd say he should logically be ahead of Haper, with only Wade Miley currently standing in his way. A few bad outings could swing the momentum Frazier's way.

With the Astros being a glorified AAA club and the Reds being among the league's best, that may swing a few votes Frazier's way.

EDIT: Except he plays for ARIZONA and not the ASTROS, so I guess that's irrelevant.:lol:

Slyder
08-11-2012, 03:27 PM
According to the Fangraphs rookie leaderboard, Todd Fraizer has a 1.9 WAR compared to Bryce Harper's 1.6 - even though he has almost 100 less at bats. He is batting .015 points higher, hitting many more extra base hits and home runs, and walking at about the same rate. If they both continue to play like this for the rest of the season, does anyone think Frazier has any chance to win Rookie of the Year, or is Harper a lock if he can put up decent numbers due to his age and status as "future star"?


Edit: I forgot to mention that Fraizer's 1.9 WAR also leads all rookie batters in the NL. However, Wade Miley, Lance Lynn, and Michael Fiers all have higher WARs as pitchers.

That award is Harper's to lose regardless of what anyone else does. Baseball showed its cards with the all star invite that they are going to try and make Harper an every house word. He will get it for the headlines.

Wonderful Monds
08-11-2012, 03:33 PM
That award is Harper's to lose regardless of what anyone else does. Baseball showed its cards with the all star invite that they are going to try and make Harper an every house word. He will get it for the headlines.

He's hitting .170 since the break, as many have been quick to point out. Barring a long hot streak, I think he already has lost it, honestly.

Superdude
08-11-2012, 04:42 PM
That award is Harper's to lose regardless of what anyone else does. Baseball showed its cards with the all star invite that they are going to try and make Harper an every house word. He will get it for the headlines.

The All Star game is an over-hyped exhibition match. The hype may garner him some ROY votes, but he's gotta justify his case a little bit. No way he slides by on publicity for a distinction with some actual integrity and merit to it. It's gotta be Miley right now.

Brutus
08-11-2012, 05:30 PM
He's hitting .170 since the break, as many have been quick to point out. Barring a long hot streak, I think he already has lost it, honestly.

He's not done anything in over a month, but it doesn't mean he isn't the leader in the clubhouse. It's still an award about hype, and Harper still gets his fair share of that.

Right now, there's no justification for Harper getting it over Frazier, but justification doesn't always win these things.

marcshoe
08-11-2012, 05:44 PM
I may be wrong, but I've read enough about Harper's funk lately to think that, if things don't change, writers will go out of their way to show they're not voting for the hype.

'course in the end, Harper will likely have the better career by far.

Brutus
08-11-2012, 05:50 PM
I may be wrong, but I've read enough about Harper's funk lately to think that, if things don't change, writers will go out of their way to show they're not voting for the hype.

'course in the end, Harper will likely have the better career by far.

If he keeps hitting the way he has the last month, then I don't think there's any way he'll win the award as his OPS could well end up under .700. But assuming he snaps out of his slump in the next few weeks, I still think he's got a bit of a head start.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2012, 07:57 PM
Even though he has way more ABs this year than Frazier, Cozart actually is tied with Frazier for the highest WAR number this season of any rookie position player in the NL. Frazier is having a better offensive season while Cozart is having the better defensive season.

Think about that. The Reds have the 2 best performing rookies (position player wise) in the NL this year. That's pretty rad.

Miley is still having the best season though. He's already at 132 innings though. He's 25, so I wonder if he'll be shut down early? That as well as a few rough outings could make the race interesting. Mike Fiers has been ridiculous too, but I think he's due for a correction. Lance Lynn could be in the mix as well, although I'm not sure he'll be considered.

kaldaniels
08-11-2012, 09:11 PM
I may be wrong, but I've read enough about Harper's funk lately to think that, if things don't change, writers will go out of their way to show they're not voting for the hype.

'course in the end, Harper will likely have the better career by far.

While I gotta say it is currently Miley's to lose, I have been thinking the same thing for a month or two...if Miley falters and Fraizer and Harper keep going at their current clip, many media guys will go out of the way to pimp Todd for ROY in order to appear "the smartest guy in the room".

LegallyMinded
08-11-2012, 10:57 PM
Buster Olney had an article (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/olney_buster/id/8254971/early-guesses-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting-mlb) breaking down the end of season award races on ESPN today (insider required). For the NL Rookie of the Year, he had Miley as the leading candidate, and then mentioned Mike Fiers, Todd Frazier and Bryce Harper as also being "in the conversation." I feel kind of bad for Frazier: a month ago, it looked like he was going to lose out on the award to Harper, but now that he's narrowed the gap between himself and Harper, it seems they've both been surpassed by Miley.

WVRedsFan
08-11-2012, 11:59 PM
Todd Frazier plays in Cincinnati. That's a handicap in itself. The media loves Harper and Miley is fools gold, as all pitchers really are after one season, but you can bet that Miley is looked at because he is a pitcher. Never mind that his ERA is good, but he has been inconsistent (much like rookies are, I guess). Regardless, I find a kid with a OPS like Frazier much more attractive, but you might say I'm prejudiced. I'm betting on Harper getting the award because Linda Cohn said tonight tonight that the Nats had the best record in baseball and Harper was the best rookie. Media rules,

PuffyPig
08-12-2012, 11:54 AM
Lance Lynn could be in the mix as well, although I'm not sure he'll be considered.

He's not a rookie, otherwise he'd likely be the front runner.

blumj
08-12-2012, 12:05 PM
For some reason, the Fangraphs rookie category leaves in some players who already used up their rookie eligibility for the award.

RedsManRick
08-12-2012, 12:13 PM
Harper since the-star break: .171/.270/.257

FWIW, I think Wade Miley has been the best rookie in the NL this year. I don't think he's an ace in the long run, but ROY is a performance-based award and Miley has been the best. I think Mike Fiers should be in the conversation too. I'd probably have them 1-2.

RichRed
08-13-2012, 10:51 AM
While I gotta say it is currently Miley's to lose, I have been thinking the same thing for a month or two...if Miley falters and Fraizer and Harper keep going at their current clip, many media guys will go out of the way to pimp Todd for ROY in order to appear "the smartest guy in the room".

This morning on the Steve Czaban Show, a sports talk radio show based in DC, Czaban's sidekick whose name I forget was talking to Steve Gardner, who writes for USA Today. The sidekick said, "So who are the Rookies of the Year right now, Mike Trout and Todd Frazier?" Gardner said that was right on the money, then went on to talk about Frazier being sort of a "stealth" candidate that people were just now starting to notice.

medford
08-13-2012, 11:24 AM
I love Czab, wish he still had his national show.

At least I can always thank him (and Dick & Jack) for turning me on to Summer Shandy before Fox dropped him for Steven A Smith.

lollipopcurve
08-13-2012, 11:28 AM
Biggest surprise of the year for me, hands down. I was not very high on Frazier coming into the season. Just goes to show me....

Tom Servo
08-13-2012, 11:37 AM
This morning on the Steve Czaban Show, a sports talk radio show based in DC, Czaban's sidekick whose name I forget was talking to Steve Gardner, who writes for USA Today. The sidekick said, "So who are the Rookies of the Year right now, Mike Trout and Todd Frazier?" Gardner said that was right on the money, then went on to talk about Frazier being sort of a "stealth" candidate that people were just now starting to notice.
Abed - Cool. Cool Cool Cool - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IIrf_JSuQk)

Hoosier Red
08-13-2012, 12:58 PM
I love Czab, wish he still had his national show.

At least I can always thank him (and Dick & Jack) for turning me on to Summer Shandy before Fox dropped him for Steven A Smith.

His show is national through Yahoo Sports Radio. (If your market supports 3 Sports Radio stations like Indianapolis does.)

VR
08-13-2012, 01:13 PM
Biggest surprise of the year for me, hands down. I was not very high on Frazier coming into the season. Just goes to show me....

He's really been amazing.....and has balance the tsunami debris disappointments on the roster that have been Valdez and Cairo.

medford
08-13-2012, 02:41 PM
His show is national through Yahoo Sports Radio. (If your market supports 3 Sports Radio stations like Indianapolis does.)

thanks, I didn't realize that. Cincy doesn't have yahoo sports radio but I'm sure it can be found on the net. I just assumed he went back to his mostly local DC show.

membengal
08-13-2012, 03:24 PM
I love Czab, wish he still had his national show.

At least I can always thank him (and Dick & Jack) for turning me on to Summer Shandy before Fox dropped him for Steven A Smith.



Hey medford, he has been national again for about a year now. Yahoo Sports radio, same show with same group of co-hosts. There is an app for yahoo sports radio that will let anyone listen live. He's got the 6 am to 9 am slot still.

Tom Servo
08-13-2012, 04:18 PM
Biggest surprise of the year for me, hands down. I was not very high on Frazier coming into the season. Just goes to show me....
Never underestimate New Jersey. :)

mth123
08-13-2012, 08:16 PM
Biggest surprise of the year for me, hands down. I was not very high on Frazier coming into the season. Just goes to show me....

Me too. I hope he continues to prove me wrong and this isn't just an early career success that will disappear when the league adjusts. I think Todd's got a decent head for hitting. I'm much more confident of him being able to adjust to what the league may come up with again than I was before getting a longer look at him at the plate. .

membengal
08-13-2012, 08:50 PM
I mused somewhere or another that he reminded me a lot of Chris Sabo (in hindsight and upon reflection). Both came up at age 26 and both were unheralded. Sabo fashioned a nice career, obviously, and Frazier can perhaps do the same.

757690
08-16-2012, 03:13 AM
I mused somewhere or another that he reminded me a lot of Chris Sabo (in hindsight and upon reflection). Both came up at age 26 and both were unheralded. Sabo fashioned a nice career, obviously, and Frazier can perhaps do the same.

Both got a break with aging an All-Star thirdbasemen getting injured, too.

Btw, MLB network did a segment on why Frazier should win the ROY over Harper, at this point. They said it wasn't even close.

membengal
08-16-2012, 05:39 AM
As of this morning, he has a line of .286/.343/.541 in 290 at-bats. That's good for an OPS of .884.

That's a stunner.

mth123
08-16-2012, 06:14 AM
As of this morning, he has a line of .286/.343/.541 in 290 at-bats. That's good for an OPS of .884.

That's a stunner.

Yep. I was expectig a useful guy who can spot in at all 4 corners and play SS in a pinch who could OPS .750 driven mostly by HR power. I love what I'm seeing in the "how he plays the game" category. I really think he'll be able to make adjustments throughout his career to help keep him productive (the exact thing I don't see Drew Stubbs ever being able to do). I have doubts that he'll be an .884 OPS and I'm still not sold on him as an every day defender at 3B, but he'll be a productive player for a long time IMO.

Caveat Emperor
08-16-2012, 08:16 AM
As of this morning, he has a line of .286/.343/.541 in 290 at-bats. That's good for an OPS of .884.

That's a stunner.

It's been a fun ride with Frazier this year -- but I'm not expecting anything beyond this year. His minor league numbers were OK (.788 OPS over 1,000 PAs in AAA), but not eye-popping. Usually when something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Enjoying every minute of his ~.900 OPS bat turn, though.

Benihana
08-16-2012, 09:45 AM
It's been a fun ride with Frazier this year -- but I'm not expecting anything beyond this year. His minor league numbers were OK (.788 OPS over 1,000 PAs in AAA), but not eye-popping. Usually when something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Enjoying every minute of his ~.900 OPS bat turn, though.

Are you saying the 2012 Todd Frazier = 1997 Chris Stynes?

Remember, while Stynes did revert to a sub-.700 OPS for the next two years after his breakout rookie campaign, he did put up an .883 OPS again in 2000 before being traded to Boston that offseason.

mdccclxix
08-16-2012, 10:10 AM
I don't think it's outrageous for Frazier, who batted .800 OPS in Louisville to see a little jump in GABP, but he's hitting well everywhere this year. I don't see the Chris Stynes comp. I think Frazier's making a case that he's that doubles hitter with an ok eye at the plate vs RHP. I like what I'm seeing.

Chip R
08-16-2012, 10:13 AM
The bigger question is if he is the starter at 3rd in 2013 or do the Reds bring Rolen back and keep Frazier in a supersub role?

757690
08-16-2012, 11:01 AM
The bigger question is if he is the starter at 3rd in 2013 or do the Reds bring Rolen back and keep Frazier in a supersub role?

The key to that is $$$. If Rolen is willing to accept around $2-3M for next year, why not bring him back and have them split the position like they did his year. Chances are good Rolen will miss a similar number of games due to his age.

WildcatFan
08-16-2012, 11:06 AM
The key to that is $$$. If Rolen is willing to accept around $2-3M for next year, why not bring him back and have them split the position like they did his year. Chances are good Rolen will miss a similar number of games due to his age.

I love that plan. Until Rolen inevitably goes down for an extended period of time, you have one of your best hitters moving around the field as needed. I see him as a left fielder, too, if Ludwick doesn't make it back and a free agent doesn't get signed this offseason.

oneupper
08-16-2012, 11:06 AM
What I like about Frazier is that, although he strikes out quite a bit, when the situation requires contact, he'll make an adjustment (not always successfully, but he tries).

OnBaseMachine
08-16-2012, 11:09 AM
It's been a fun ride with Frazier this year -- but I'm not expecting anything beyond this year. His minor league numbers were OK (.788 OPS over 1,000 PAs in AAA), but not eye-popping. Usually when something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Enjoying every minute of his ~.900 OPS bat turn, though.

Joey Votto was an .862 bat in the minor leagues. Some players get better.

Dan
08-16-2012, 11:12 AM
The bigger question is if he is the starter at 3rd in 2013 or do the Reds bring Rolen back and keep Frazier in a supersub role?

I'd be shocked if Rolen was back in a playing capacity. He strikes me as broken down (last night notwithstanding). I think he and Cairo are both moving on after this year. However, if they chose to retire, I'm sure they'd find jobs in the Reds organization.

Screwball
08-16-2012, 11:18 AM
Just about every time I watch Frazier play I'm reminded of what M2 once said about him -- "He came out of the womb playing baseball." He's got a high baseball IQ who's practically the eiptome of substance over style.

Is he really a .900ish OPS bat? Probably not. But he does find ways to beat the other guy, and IMO he's the type of complementary player a championship team needs.

RedsManRick
08-16-2012, 11:19 AM
I'd be shocked if Rolen was back in a playing capacity. He strikes me as broken down (last night notwithstanding). I think he and Cairo are both moving on after this year. However, if they chose to retire, I'm sure they'd find jobs in the Reds organization.

I would love to see Rolen stay in the organzation as a coach/instructor -- I'd even be open to having him as the bench corner infielder and RH pinch hitter getting 1-2 starts a week, assuming he'd take a commensurate pay cut. But particularly given Fraizer's performance, I cannot see the Reds bringing him back in a starting capacity.

RedsManRick
08-16-2012, 11:22 AM
Peas in a pod:


As of August 16th

PA AVG OBP SLG wOBA BB% K% ISO% BABIP
Todd Frazier 318 .286 .343 .541 .372 7.9 23.3 .255 .335
Ryan Ludwick 344 .268 .335 .552 .372 8.1 21.2 .284 .286

Frazier's gotten some more singles. Ludwick has hit a few more extra base hits. But the similarities between them is scary. Scary good in this case.

Wonderful Monds
08-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Peas in a pod:


As of August 16th

PA AVG OBP SLG wOBA BB% K% ISO% BABIP
Todd Frazier 318 .286 .343 .541 .372 7.9 23.3 .255 .335
Ryan Ludwick 344 .268 .335 .552 .372 8.1 21.2 .284 .286

They've both been really fun to watch over the past couple months.

traderumor
08-16-2012, 11:27 AM
I wouldn't hold my breath on Rolen coaching. He has made it pretty clear that the toughest thing about his job now is being away from his family. I can't imagine him volunteering to continue that lifestyle, just reading signals he's sent out over the years. Maybe he'll be a ST instructor and "special assistant."

Homer Bailey
08-16-2012, 11:32 AM
The Ludwick/Frazier unexpected production rivals the Stubbs/Rolen unexpected production in 2010, except these two have been even better. This team needed this to compete, and they're getting it. Been incredibly fun to watch.

Scrap Irony
08-16-2012, 11:43 AM
Frazier allows the Reds great flexibility for 2013. If Ludwick's looking to make one last cash grab, Frazier can take over there and some combination of Henry Rodriguez and Scott Rolen could man the hot corner.

If Scott Rolen's looking to retire, Frazier can do 3B and provide a league average or better bat at that spot, while some combination of Ludwick, Heisey, or a free agent/ trade acquisition can play LF.

Nice, that.

medford
08-16-2012, 11:44 AM
I think it depends on Rolen's ability to recognize his deterioting body (something many athletes struggle to accept) and his willingness to accept something less than a starter's role.

Scott has shown over the last month or so, when he came off the DL, that he still has something left in the tank. Problem is, he can't tap into that tank near as often as he has in the past, otherwise his shoulder and body wear down. In my ideal world, Walt approachs Scott at seasons end, if not sooner and gives it to him straight (at least my version as I see it). Tells him his a valuable assest to the team, a great leader, but his body just won't hold up to every day play. If he wants to continue playing another couple of seasons for the Reds, they'd love to have him back. $2-$3 mil w/ an option for a 2nd year w/ a buyout if they don't pick up that option. An understanding that he'll play roughly 40-50% the time, pinch hit on a regular basis, mentor Frasier at 3b, pick up a 1b glove to occasionally spell Votto when needed at 1b. If he'd rather retire than serve that role, call it a great career and hope the hall calls someday great, offer him a roving instructor role in the organization so he can remain connected to the game semi-regularly. If he thinks he still have a few more seasons playing 120+ games a year, wish him well and tell him the coaching spot remains available should he ever want it and thank him for all he did for the Reds the last few seasons.

Regarding Frazier's minor league numbers, remember this is a guy who's moved around a lot defensively. How much time was spent working on his defense at SS or 2b or LF or 1b or 3b rather than hitting. I think we're seeing that as a bonus in his versatility at the majors, perhaps just the last few seasons has he had the time to dedicate himself to the craft of hitting. I'd tell Frasier of my plans in the offseason, tell him the organization would like to bring Scott back as a part time player and defensive mentor for him at 3b. Tell him the plan is to have Todd starting at 3b 80-100 games next season, but to not lose his LF or 1b glove as he'll fill in there occasionally depending either Scott Rolen's ability/willingness to pick up 1b or the other veteran player's ability to play 1b that they bring in to fill as the bench/mentor role at 3b.

FWIW, I think calling todd a doubles hitter is a bit of a slight. He's shown the incredible amount of power he can generate on several occasions. he's hit a humer roughly once every 19 at bats. Sure he doesn't have Adam Dunn power, or even Jay Bruce power, but plenty enough power.

mdccclxix
08-16-2012, 12:30 PM
I can't think of another doubles hitter other than say Alonso off the top of my head. I just know Frazier hit a ton of them in the minors. It's a great compliment and I definitely recognize his HR power (last nights bomb!), but I don't categorize him as a HR hitter.

Nasty_Boy
08-16-2012, 12:41 PM
After Frazier's call up last season and his spring training performance, I was pretty confident that he had this kind of pop. I wasn't as confident in his OB skills or the ability to hit for much AVG but I felt that he would hit LHP and provide some nice power in a platoon role. He seemed to be a big kid with a powerful looking swing that left him vulnerable to some offspeed stuff and the ball away... But he seemed like a guy that would hit 20-25 HRs if he had 450 ABs.

gonelong
08-16-2012, 04:18 PM
Just about every time I watch Frazier play I'm reminded of what M2 once said about him -- "He came out of the womb playing baseball." He's got a high baseball IQ who's practically the eiptome of substance over style.

Nice.

I am a bit taken aback by how many guys on this team are just plain old fun to watch.

Frazier is one of them, BP, Votto, Cueto, Latos, Leake, and Chapman. It's been along time that we had this many guys on one team that make me sit up and take notice.

GL

lollipopcurve
08-16-2012, 04:24 PM
Frazier is one of them, BP, Votto, Cueto, Latos, Leake, and Chapman. It's been along time that we had this many guys on one team that make me sit up and take notice.

And once Hamilton arrives, wow.

The play Frazier made to Leake last night was a nice example of a couple of baseball rats showing off some mastery -- the ball he gloved and then flicked from the glove toward first, leading Leake perfectly as he ran to the bag. Enjoyed that a lot.

OesterPoster
08-17-2012, 12:17 PM
Dougdirt, do you have some old batting stance video of Frazier? I was watching some old ABs by Todd while in Dayton, and his stance looked totally different than it does now. He didn't have that front foot and leg all coiled up and was much wider. It'd be cool if you could show a side-by-side clip of how he's really changed his stance over the years.

MWM
08-17-2012, 08:52 PM
There's a lot of season left, but at this point the question is how could Frazier NOT win ROY.

PuffyPig
08-17-2012, 08:53 PM
There's a lot of season left, but at this point the question is how could Frazier NOT win ROY.


Miley.

Plus Plus
08-17-2012, 09:01 PM
Miley.

ESPN still has Harper ahead of Frazier as well, with a predicted top 3 of Miley-Harper-Frazier.

...for what that's worth.

MWM
08-17-2012, 09:08 PM
I had forgotten about Miley. I still think Frazier's season is the most impressive of the three. Harper shouldn't even be in the conversation anymore.

sonny
08-17-2012, 09:20 PM
Todd has been the best cog in this machine. He has played admirably everywhere, putting up great numbers, and from what I understand is a clubhouse gem. He may not be MVP of this team, but he's in the conversation.

Brutus
08-17-2012, 09:22 PM
I had forgotten about Miley. I still think Frazier's season is the most impressive of the three. Harper shouldn't even be in the conversation anymore.

Yep. It's ridiculous to even mention him right now. He's hit two homers in the past six weeks and his OPS is down to .732.

He should not even remotely be in the conversation.

dougdirt
08-17-2012, 09:31 PM
Dougdirt, do you have some old batting stance video of Frazier? I was watching some old ABs by Todd while in Dayton, and his stance looked totally different than it does now. He didn't have that front foot and leg all coiled up and was much wider. It'd be cool if you could show a side-by-side clip of how he's really changed his stance over the years.

I am going through some serious computer problems right now. I will try to see what I can track down after the weekend.

fearofpopvol1
08-17-2012, 10:20 PM
I think another interesting question is...how will Dusty Baker keep Frazier out of the lineup whenever Votto returns??

Brutus
08-17-2012, 10:26 PM
I think another interesting question is...how will Dusty Baker keep Frazier out of the lineup whenever Votto returns??

I don't think it's really that big of a problem. Ludwick and Rolen each have been sitting once or twice a week to be kept fresh, and the Reds will probably want to sit Votto once a week as well. That's at least 4-5 starts a week for Frazier even accounting for an occasional Heisey start in left.

guttle11
08-17-2012, 11:58 PM
ESPN still has Harper ahead of Frazier as well, with a predicted top 3 of Miley-Harper-Frazier.

...for what that's worth.

ESPN has presented Bryce Harper as the next Ken Griffey Jr (or the baseball Tebow) since before he was drafted. They aren't slowing the hype train down to a reasonable speed when his numbers show he's every bit the hit or miss player you'd expect from a 19 year old, even one with Harper's exceptional talent. Heck, it took until just a couple weeks ago before ESPN talked about Mike Trout without Harper also being mentioned in the same sentence. That's not to say Harper can't get back to the top of the NL crop with a huge September, but right now he has to be no higher 3rd on an honest list.

Frazier and Miley had a nearly impossible uphill climb for national respect. The media as a whole is more open-minded than ESPN, but it took a long time for any NL rookie other than Harper to get much love.

I think right now Frazier has to be the favorite. Miley is good, very good, but something has to be said for helping lead a first place team. Remove the clutch factor of being in a pennant race and the two are very, very close. But if Frazier keeps playing well (in multiple lineup and defensive roles) and the Reds win the division, I think that breaks the virtual tie.

oregonred
08-18-2012, 12:23 AM
Frazier - I thought we traded him as part of the Upton package :)

If both were qualified (and both are getting close)

Ludwick's .907 OPS would be 8th in the NL
Frazier's .889 OPS would be 10th in the NL

Simply amazing what Frazier has done in the Votto and Rolen absences. Lifesaver in 2012...

marcshoe
08-18-2012, 12:12 PM
Miley had a nice game yesterday against the Astros (I'm assuming games against Houston still count toward major league stats), picking up his 13th win and getting his ERA back under three. Fangraphs has his WAR at 3.7 now and Frazier's at 2.5. I checked before last night's games, and Miley was at 3.3 and Frazier at 2.3, so both picked up a little. This should be interesting to watch down the stretch. I haven't looked into it, but it seems to me that the writers tend to choose position players over pitchers, all else being equal. And, as others have said, the Reds being (more than) in contention and Arizona not may play into it. These are two excellent candidates.

fwiw, there seems to be a push for Wilin Rosario based on his home run numbers, but I don't see it.

DGullett35
08-18-2012, 01:13 PM
ESPN loves any great story that will attract viewers esp. young viewers. I honestly cannot stand ESPN's baseball coverage except for Larkin and mostly watch MLB Network. Dan Plesac and Harold reynolds both said a couple nights ago that Frazier has to be ahead of Harper in the voting based on numbers. They've played in almost the same amount of games(Harper has played like 2 more) and the Toddfather has him beat in every major offensive category. Id give Miley some votes but no way does Harper deserve more votes than Frazier. Frazier has meant more to this Reds club than Harper to the Nats and by a wide wide margin. Im sure we wouldn't be 21-9 or whatever it is since Votto got hurt without Todd.(and Luddy:))

cincrazy
08-18-2012, 02:15 PM
HR #17 today. This guy is an absolute keeper, and one of the crucial differences between this year's team and the 2010 squad.

bellhead
08-18-2012, 02:16 PM
HR #17 today. This guy is an absolute keeper, and one of the crucial differences between this year's team and the 2010 squad.

Looks like 3rd base is locked up for the next 5 years.

NJReds
08-18-2012, 02:16 PM
I don't think you can minimize how important Todd has been to the Reds this year. He filled in for Rolen, filled in for Votto and played decent defense at both positions in addition to his offense. Votto and Chapman may be the Reds MVPs this year, but Frazier is right there with them.

Tom Servo
08-18-2012, 02:21 PM
Big Klu will have to add Frazier to the Reds All-Time HR list soon:)

traderumor
08-18-2012, 02:26 PM
Votes are in from Chicago: Frazier for ROY :D

RedsManRick
08-18-2012, 02:29 PM
I would very much like to see an OF of Ludwick, Bruce, Frazier when Votto gets back. The defensive step down would be more than offset by the offensive boost at this point.

mth123
08-18-2012, 02:31 PM
I would very much like to see an OF of Ludwick, Bruce, Frazier when Votto gets back. The defensive step down would be more than offset by the offensive boost at this point.

Good idea. I was wondering if Frazier could play CF. Forgot about Bruce playing there in a past life. It wouldn't be all the time. I'd guess Frazier will play 3B at least a couple times each week.

redhawkfish
08-18-2012, 03:31 PM
Good idea. I was wondering if Frazier could play CF. Forgot about Bruce playing there in a past life. It wouldn't be all the time. I'd guess Frazier will play 3B at least a couple times each week.

Votto will probably not play every single day for a while when he comes back.

mth123
08-18-2012, 03:46 PM
Votto will probably not play every single day for a while when he comes back.

Agreed. A start at 1B, 2 or 3 at 3B and a couple in RF with Bruce in CF would be a solid week and would allow the Reds to limit Stubbs exposure to RHP. Maybe sit Bruce once in a while against a lefty while they are at it. Should be plenty of PAs for Frazier.

Blitz Dorsey
08-18-2012, 04:14 PM
I thought for sure Anthony Rizzo would win it. But I've completely changed my mind. It's Todd Frazier's award to lose now. It's an absolute no-brainer at this point. Frazier's offensive numbers blow everyone else away ... and he's also made a huge impact defensively filling in for Votto and Rolen. And not just "filling in" but playing extremely well offensively and defensively. All the while doing it for a likely divisional champion.

Has to be Frazier. What's great is that the "clown" himself Bryce Harper isn't even in the discussion.

Nasty_Boy
08-18-2012, 04:36 PM
I think Miley is his stiffest competition at this point... Honestly though, how is Cozart not mentioned more often? Not that I think he should win, but his power numbers and excellent defense at SS for a 1st place time should garner more attention. Looking around the team and the pitching staff, you have to feel great about the guys doing the scounting and developing. Tons of home grown talent... even a surpluss that allow you to acquire an arm like Latos. This season has been an absolute joy... Well, after the first two weeks! :D

Chip R
08-18-2012, 05:14 PM
I will admit that I was not happy with how the Reds used Frazier in the minor leagues. It seemed that they were grooming him as a utility player. By design or by happenstance, all that experience in the minors at the different positions has paid off in spades.

As for being ROY, I think when Votto comes back, it's going to hurt his chances. Instead of playing 6 days a week, unless Rolen or Ludwick get hurt, he's back to being a supersub and getting 2-3 starts a week.

Homer Bailey
08-18-2012, 06:15 PM
I would very much like to see an OF of Ludwick, Bruce, Frazier when Votto gets back. The defensive step down would be more than offset by the offensive boost at this point.

I would love this too, but I don't think there is much of any chance that Dusty would do that.

buckeyenut
08-18-2012, 06:35 PM
My question is, is Todd Frazier having an amazing season and is going to come back to earth next year? Or is he going to get better and we need to plan on him being an integral part of this team going forward instead of just a utility guy?

Oh, and is it just me or has Todd's defense at 1B been OUTSTANDING? Seems like every night he is making a great play over there.

dougdirt
08-18-2012, 07:07 PM
I would still vote for Wade Miley at this point in time. He has been more valuable IMO.

Tom Servo
08-18-2012, 07:21 PM
I would still vote for Wade Miley at this point in time. He has been more valuable IMO.
I disagree. The D'Backs are a 3rd place team with or without Miley. The Reds are not a first place team without Frazier.

Brutus
08-18-2012, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure who's more valuable, but isn't the award based on the best rookie? I'm not sure that value is supposed to have anything to do with it. Who's the best? I think you can make a good argument for both Miley and Frazier, but neither should be on value to his team.

dougdirt
08-18-2012, 07:38 PM
I disagree. The D'Backs are a 3rd place team with or without Miley. The Reds are not a first place team without Frazier.

I could care less about who is on a wining team. Miley has been the better player this year.

I would vote the same way for the MVP too. Finish in last place but be the best player, you get my vote.

Tom Servo
08-18-2012, 07:40 PM
I could care less about who is on a wining team. Miley has been the better player this year.

I would vote the same way for the MVP too. Finish in last place but be the best player, you get my vote.
When you said valuable my mind went to value to the team, not VORP, WAR, or other statistics. My bad.

dougdirt
08-18-2012, 07:53 PM
When you said valuable my mind went to value to the team, not VORP, WAR, or other statistics. My bad.

Value = value. If a player is worth X value to team A he is also going to be worth that value to every other team given the same playing time.

WildcatFan
08-18-2012, 07:58 PM
Value = value. If a player is worth X value to team A he is also going to be worth that value to every other team given the same playing time.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, which is why I vote Frazier. I'm taking considerations other than numbers for this race for a couple reasons: pitcher vs batter, but mostly that Frazier has had more VALUE to the Reds because of what he has done at the plate and filling in for Votto/Rolen, etc. around the field. It's an incredible feat to have done what he's done this season, and I just don't believe numbers would tell you the whole story.

Homer Bailey
08-18-2012, 08:12 PM
I disagree. The D'Backs are a 3rd place team with or without Miley. The Reds are not a first place team without Frazier.

Probably don't have a 7 game lead, but yeah, they're still in first without Todd Frazier. He's not a 7 win player.

WildcatFan
08-18-2012, 08:15 PM
Wrong thread

Tom Servo
08-18-2012, 08:17 PM
Probably don't have a 7 game lead, but yeah, they're still in first without Todd Frazier. He's not a 7 win player.
This is true. I'd argue my belief further, but I suppose I'd just be getting us back into the value of a player outside of stats, a fruitless argument already debated about with Cairo.

757690
08-18-2012, 09:51 PM
Probably don't have a 7 game lead, but yeah, they're still in first without Todd Frazier. He's not a 7 win player.

Frazier's a 2.5 player, but that doesn't mean the Reds would be 70.5-49.5 without him.

Cairo plays third and first for around 100 games if the Reds don't have Frazier. Plus, no way the Reds go on their huge winning streak after losing Votto without Frazier. No freakin' way.

I say it's hard to imagine any scenario in which the Reds are in first place this season without Frazier, except trading for Beltre, Wright, or someone similar.

I don't know how many more wins the Reds have this year because of Frazier, but it sure is a heck of a lot more than seven.

cincrazy
08-18-2012, 09:59 PM
Todd Frazier plays mostly every day. Miley pitches every five. Give me Frazier every day of the week for ROY.

muddie
08-18-2012, 10:00 PM
Super day. Former Mudcat Todd Frazier gets it done. So awesome to see the guys that went through here contributing like they have. Heisey got a nice base knock as well today.

Matt700wlw
08-18-2012, 11:42 PM
Frazier. Hands down.

vic715
08-19-2012, 12:12 AM
I'm not sure who's more valuable, but isn't the award based on the best rookie? I'm not sure that value is supposed to have anything to do with it. Who's the best? I think you can make a good argument for both Miley and Frazier, but neither should be on value to his team.

You are right,but I think thats what cost Votto the award in 08,Soto played for a divisional champ and I felt that the writers looked at it that he was more valuable to his team than was Votto was to his.So in a way it was like an MVP rookie award.

KittyDuran
08-19-2012, 08:08 AM
Todd has a legitimate shot at ROY if Votto doesn't come back... IMHO it's just that pure and simple. He just won't get enough playing time spot starting in different positions. Also, I haven't read the whole thread but is there a rule that would prohibit Todd from winning because of starting in different positions?

PuffyPig
08-19-2012, 09:05 AM
You are right,but I think thats what cost Votto the award in 08,Soto played for a divisional champ and I felt that the writers looked at it that he was more valuable to his team than was Votto was to his.So in a way it was like an MVP rookie award.

I think it was the fact that Soto was a catcher, which IMO is relavent.

oneupper
08-19-2012, 10:37 AM
I think it was the fact that Soto was a catcher, which IMO is relavent.

That was it. Soto put up a .868 OPS, playing 141 games, mostly as a CATCHER.
Joey was at .874 as 1B.
Soto took 31 of 32 first place votes.

(Just saw that Volquez and Bruce came in 4th and 5th on that same vote).

Vottomatic
08-19-2012, 11:37 AM
Frazier's only competition right now is probably that starting pitcher whose name eludes my brain cramp right now.

I hope Todd wins it.

Nasty_Boy
08-19-2012, 03:10 PM
That was it. Soto put up a .868 OPS, playing 141 games, mostly as a CATCHER.
Joey was at .874 as 1B.
Soto took 31 of 32 first place votes.

(Just saw that Volquez and Bruce came in 4th and 5th on that same vote).

Volquez wasn't even eligible... He used up his rookie eligibility in Texas. I can't remember who voted for him, but it was a running joke on how many votes he would get in the next years ballot.

Crumbley
08-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Frazier's only competition right now is probably that starting pitcher whose name eludes my brain cramp right now.

I hope Todd wins it.
Wade "Not Dave" Miley

fearofpopvol1
08-22-2012, 02:34 AM
The case keeps becoming stronger (a home run, a double and a walk tonight -- Season OPS now .913), but Frazier is still going to have to keep playing at this level and Miley is going to have to pitch some stinkers, be shut down early, or a combination of both.

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 08:13 AM
That was it. Soto put up a .868 OPS, playing 141 games, mostly as a CATCHER.
Joey was at .874 as 1B.
Soto took 31 of 32 first place votes.

(Just saw that Volquez and Bruce came in 4th and 5th on that same vote).


How did Volquez not win it?

17-6, 3.21, 206 K's, made the All Star team, with a 4.2 WAR (Soto and Votto were 3.1).

Even Jurriens beat out Volquez, and he went 13-10, 3.68 with 139 K's, with a 2.2 WAR.

Degenerate39
08-22-2012, 08:23 AM
How did Volquez not win it?

17-6, 3.21, 206 K's, made the All Star team, with a 4.2 WAR (Soto and Votto were 3.1).

Even Jurriens beat out Volquez, and he went 13-10, 3.68 with 139 K's, with a 2.2 WAR.

Volquez wasn't really a rookie

redsmetz
08-22-2012, 08:26 AM
Volquez wasn't really a rookie

Just to clarify? Did Volquez not have rookie status that season or is it that voters didn't perceive him as a rookie? I haven't looked it up to see what his actual status was.

Degenerate39
08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
Just to clarify? Did Volquez not have rookie status that season or is it that voters didn't perceive him as a rookie? I haven't looked it up to see what his actual status was.

I remember hearing that he had too many innings to qualify as a rookie. Some voters made a mistake.

dougdirt
08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
Just to clarify? Did Volquez not have rookie status that season or is it that voters didn't perceive him as a rookie? I haven't looked it up to see what his actual status was.

Volquez was not a rookie, some voters simply didn't get it and voted for him anyways.

Raisor
08-22-2012, 08:28 AM
I think it's going to come down to who is scrappier.

redsmetz
08-22-2012, 08:32 AM
Thanks for the clarification from both of you. That sounds familiar now.

oneupper
08-22-2012, 08:35 AM
Volquez was not a rookie, some voters simply didn't get it and voted for him anyways.

How can that actually happen and they counted the votes? I mean, what if he would have had the votes to win.

MLB should fix that. When you vote for the Easter Bunny for President, they don't actually count those, do they?

OesterPoster
08-22-2012, 09:28 AM
Someone needs to turn this little 3 second video of Frazier in the dugout into an animated gif. Watch Cozart's home run from about the 14 second mark to the 17 second mark. See if you can read Frazier's lips like I have. :)

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24100407&topic_id=8877986&c_id=cin

PuffyPig
08-22-2012, 09:29 AM
How can that actually happen and they counted the votes? I mean, what if he would have had the votes to win.

MLB should fix that. When you vote for the Easter Bunny for President, they don't actually count those, do they?

No, because the Easter Bunny isn't American and doesn't qualify to become President.

FWIW, the Easter Bunny, like Santa Claus and Joey Votto, are all Canadian.

oneupper
08-22-2012, 10:03 AM
Someone needs to turn this little 3 second video of Frazier in the dugout into an animated gif. Watch Cozart's home run from about the 14 second mark to the 17 second mark. See if you can read Frazier's lips like I have. :)

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24100407&topic_id=8877986&c_id=cin

You can also check out the condensed game around 12:00 for a more complete opinion from Mr. Frazier :D

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24114111

klw
08-22-2012, 11:14 AM
You can also check out the condensed game around 12:00 for a more complete opinion from Mr. Frazier :D

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24114111

The fan at 12:07 is great as well.

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2012, 12:47 PM
Someone needs to turn this little 3 second video of Frazier in the dugout into an animated gif. Watch Cozart's home run from about the 14 second mark to the 17 second mark. See if you can read Frazier's lips like I have. :)

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24100407&topic_id=8877986&c_id=cin

I noticed that as well, and I love it. I love how animated Frazier gets. I'm so glad this guy is a Cincinnati Red.

OldRightHander
08-22-2012, 05:09 PM
The fan at 12:07 is great as well.

That's priceless.

Tadasimha
08-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Someone needs to turn this little 3 second video of Frazier in the dugout into an animated gif. Watch Cozart's home run from about the 14 second mark to the 17 second mark. See if you can read Frazier's lips like I have. :)

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24100407&topic_id=8877986&c_id=cin

Pretty clear to me!

Brutus
08-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Pretty clear to me!

Who's this other focker and why is Frazier calling for him?

camisadelgolf
08-22-2012, 05:55 PM
The fan at 12:07 is great as well.
http://i49.tinypic.com/iefa0y.jpg

dougdirt
08-22-2012, 07:59 PM
With Dusty basically saying today that he is heading to the bench when Votto gets back, I will say no.

fearofpopvol1
08-22-2012, 08:43 PM
is there a quote of that somewhere?

dougdirt
08-22-2012, 08:46 PM
is there a quote of that somewhere?

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/22/baker-talks-about-frazier-question/

Dusty was asked about Frazier when Votto came back. He then said Votto is going to play. No one is better at third than Rolen and that "is he going to play left over Ludwick"? He followed that up with "Sometimes when you’re on really good team, you’ve got to wait your turn to play."

Brutus
08-22-2012, 08:48 PM
I think it just means Frazier won't technically be the starter anywhere when Votto gets back. I still stand behind my prediction that he plays at least four times a week as a fill-in. Further, if the Reds continue to build a bigger lead, they'll be more apt to keep resting Votto, Rolen & Ludwick.

edabbs44
08-22-2012, 08:49 PM
He'll get enough playing time when you factor in how much time Rolen and Ludwick need off.

reds44
08-22-2012, 08:53 PM
And where should Frazier play? Rolen has a 1.005 OPS since the ASB including 1.034 in August.

fearofpopvol1
08-22-2012, 08:54 PM
Season WAR

Frazier - 2.8
Rolen - 0.7
Ludwick - 2.4

Rolen is a gold glove 3B, a repeat all star and a future hall of famer. Age and what you have done lately do not apply. It's all about earning your dues. Declining players, regardless of production, should be given preference because of how long they've been in the game.

dougdirt
08-22-2012, 08:56 PM
And where should Frazier play? Rolen has a 1.005 OPS since the ASB including 1.034 in August.

I wouldn't count on Rolen's .400 BABIP since the ASB to continue....

reds44
08-22-2012, 09:01 PM
http://i49.tinypic.com/iefa0y.jpg
I'm gonna bet that's not the first time Cozart made a female's face look like that.

CySeymour
08-22-2012, 09:01 PM
I think it just means Frazier won't technically be the starter anywhere when Votto gets back. I still stand behind my prediction that he plays at least four times a week as a fill-in. Further, if the Reds continue to build a bigger lead, they'll be more apt to keep resting Votto, Rolen & Ludwick.

I agree. Once Votto comes back, I think he'll get similar treatment as Rolen, not playing day game after night game and probably will only play 3 or 4 days in a row. Frazier will still get a lot of at-bats between 1st, 3rd and left.

reds44
08-22-2012, 09:03 PM
I wouldn't count on Rolen's .400 BABIP since the ASB to continue....
Would you expect Frazier's .340 season BABIP to?

reds44
08-22-2012, 09:05 PM
Season WAR

Frazier - 2.8
Rolen - 0.7
Ludwick - 2.4

Rolen is a gold glove 3B, a repeat all star and a future hall of famer. Age and what you have done lately do not apply. It's all about earning your dues. Declining players, regardless of production, should be given preference because of how long they've been in the game.
That's just completely ignoring how great Rolen has been the last 2 months of the season.

Wonderful Monds
08-22-2012, 09:10 PM
That's just completely ignoring how great Rolen has been the last 2 months of the season.

It also relies on the fact that Rolen has been a below average fielder this year, which frankly I don't buy at all.

fearofpopvol1
08-22-2012, 09:11 PM
That's just completely ignoring how great Rolen has been the last 2 months of the season.

Have you been ignoring Frazier's numbers since the ASB?

edabbs44
08-22-2012, 09:13 PM
Season WAR

Frazier - 2.8
Rolen - 0.7
Ludwick - 2.4

Rolen is a gold glove 3B, a repeat all star and a future hall of famer. Age and what you have done lately do not apply. It's all about earning your dues. Declining players, regardless of production, should be given preference because of how long they've been in the game.

Rolen has been doing ok lately.

fearofpopvol1
08-22-2012, 09:14 PM
Rolen has been doing ok lately.

Do you want okay or do you want great? Frazier has been great lately.

edabbs44
08-22-2012, 09:15 PM
I wouldn't count on Rolen's .400 BABIP since the ASB to continue....

The same way that he shouldn't have been pronounced dead in the first half with a .213 babip?

edabbs44
08-22-2012, 09:16 PM
Do you want okay or do you want great? Frazier has been great lately.

Rolen had been great lately.

And, for the record, I don't care who plays. As long as this team wins. I don't care who hits lead off. I don't care who plays 3rd. I don't care who pitches the 8th. Just win.

reds44
08-22-2012, 09:22 PM
Rolen is going to play. Tie goes to the better defender and the veteran.

cincrazy
08-22-2012, 09:23 PM
Doug, you act like it's just a cut-and-dried situation. As if Dusty can just bench Rolen, insert Frazier in the starting lineup, and it's as simple as that.

If Rolen goes back in the tank, I'm confident that Frazier will get the third base spot. But Rolen has been fantastic, and is getting healthier. It's a good problem to have.

cincrazy
08-22-2012, 09:23 PM
With Votto still needing some days off, and Ludwick needing to sit on occasion, Frazier will get plenty of PT going forward.

Brutus
08-22-2012, 09:24 PM
If one of the biggest problems the Reds have heading into September is how they're going to find room for a .915 bat, I like where they're sitting.

Homer Bailey
08-22-2012, 10:01 PM
I'm gonna bet that's not the first time Cozart made a female's face look like that.

Bahahahahahah

dougdirt
08-22-2012, 10:02 PM
Doug, you act like it's just a cut-and-dried situation. As if Dusty can just bench Rolen, insert Frazier in the starting lineup, and it's as simple as that.

If Rolen goes back in the tank, I'm confident that Frazier will get the third base spot. But Rolen has been fantastic, and is getting healthier. It's a good problem to have.

One guy has hit all season long. One guy has hit for 6 weeks. The guy who has hit for 6 weeks is getting the nod here because he is older. Plain and simple.

Wonderful Monds
08-22-2012, 10:04 PM
One guy has hit all season long. One guy has hit for 6 weeks. The guy who has hit for 6 weeks is getting the nod here because he is older. Plain and simple.

Or maybe because he has a career history of hitting, has hit very well as recent as a couple seasons ago, is an all-world defender etc.

So no, not plain and simple as that at all Doug.

cincrazy
08-22-2012, 10:07 PM
One guy has hit all season long. One guy has hit for 6 weeks. The guy who has hit for 6 weeks is getting the nod here because he is older. Plain and simple.

So you want Dusty to just totally ignore the human part of the game, and sit Rolen, even though he's turned it around and is playing great ball. You really think that would go over well in the clubhouse? With other players? I agree with you, if Rolen tanks, you play Frazier. But it's not like Cairo is starting over Frazier here. I just don't feel like you have a legitimate gripe here. Frazier is going to play. Even if it isn't at third every night. Sometimes in LF, Sometimes at 1B. Dusty isn't stupid, and deserves more respect than you give him.

VR
08-22-2012, 10:14 PM
If Frazier goes to the bench....he is guaranteed of starting at least once, if not twice at 3rd. He'll probably get a start at first once a week w/ Votto injured. He will be the first guy off the bench to PH every night

I don't believe they are sending him to Bakersfield.

kaldaniels
08-22-2012, 10:16 PM
If Frazier goes to the bench....he is guaranteed of starting at least once, if not twice at 3rd. He'll probably get a start at first once a week w/ Votto injured. He will be the first guy off the bench to PH every night

I don't believe they are sending him to Bakersfield.

Todd will get decent PT the rest of the year, I have faith. But how strange would it be for the ROY to be on the bench for a playoff series...it could happen.

Matt700wlw
08-22-2012, 10:17 PM
These are good things to worry about :)

OldRightHander
08-23-2012, 12:06 AM
I was just thinking about the last Reds 3B to win the ROY...

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 12:53 AM
Considering that Rolen and Ludwick each have about two days off a week normally, and Votto will likely get a weekly rest, I'm guessing Frazier will play.

No, Rolen wont continue to BAPIP .400, but he's OPSing over a thousand during that span. That's not all BAPIP, not at all.... Rolen's K:BB is back to being to the point where it looks like he's healthy and legit playing well.

Honestly, just one of those situations where Frazier is the best candidate to sit because he has the positional flexibility to do, will get regular rests, and his competition is hitting as well as him. It's a good problem to have. Frazier will play if he keeps hititng like a maniac.

11larkin11
08-23-2012, 09:59 AM
How can you not love how this guy plays? From playing air guitar with his bat, to hitting one handed homeruns, to the constant fist bumps after crucial plays. The dude is just a fun guy, and from what we've heard, he and Scotty both really carry the clubhouse.

All hail the Toddfather!

Jamz
08-23-2012, 10:27 AM
Frazier is quickly becoming one of my favorite players. The guy is a gamer. He cares more about the team than he does about himself, and I think he's used that to really allow himself to become like a sponge. He soaks up everything and you can see little improvements in his play all the time.

Also as far as the Frazier vs. Rolen debate goes...if it comes down to one of the two, despite how good Rolen has played recently, Frazier has been better. On top of which Frazier has been better and much, much more consistent. I take Frazier every time and have Rolen as a spot starter and a pinch hitter. It probably would also help with Rolen's ability to stay healthy to not have him start every game.

MikeThierry
08-23-2012, 10:29 AM
Todd will get decent PT the rest of the year, I have faith. But how strange would it be for the ROY to be on the bench for a playoff series...it could happen.

Well... the Nats are shutting down Strasburg so stranger things have happened.

medford
08-23-2012, 10:46 AM
Its pretty easy to me, Frazier won't be the everyday starter, however he'll get a minimum of 1 day a week in LF, 1 day a week at 3b and 1 day a week at 1b. he'll also likely get an additional day a week at either LF or 3b. Don't forget, this is Frazeir's first turn at playing this late into the season, the dude could probably use some rest himself as well.

On top of that, I wouldn't be all that surprised to see them rest Bruce in RF a time or two if/when they clinch. I'm not sure that he's ever played out there, but he appears to have the arm for it.

CarolinaRedleg
08-23-2012, 11:05 AM
Nice hometown column on The Toddfather

http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2012/08/bradley_toms_rivers_todd_frazi.html#incart_flyout_ sports

REDREAD
08-23-2012, 11:12 AM
I think it just means Frazier won't technically be the starter anywhere when Votto gets back. I still stand behind my prediction that he plays at least four times a week as a fill-in. Further, if the Reds continue to build a bigger lead, they'll be more apt to keep resting Votto, Rolen & Ludwick.

Yes, I agree with that.
With Votto back and the lead we have, there's no reason at all to not frequently rest Ludwick and Rolen.. We want to keep Rolen's back healthy for the playoffs.
Heck, I can even see Votto getting a day off per week and Frasier playing 1b.

I think Heisey will start to see a little more playing time too (Bruce/Stubbs resting) if we maintain this type of lead.

It's kind of nice to be crusiing towards the end of the season.

Tom Servo
08-23-2012, 11:26 AM
And you guys wanted to trade him. :)

RANDY IN INDY
08-23-2012, 11:38 AM
I'm still glad it was Francisco that they traded.