PDA

View Full Version : Home Grown Team



Captain Hook
07-26-2012, 03:34 PM
When's the last time the Reds had three guys pitching in their rotation at such a high level that they can take credit for drafting?My guess is never.Joey Votto is one of if the best players in baseball and they've drafted him along with Bruce, Mesoraco and Stubbs.I'm sure there's a few if not a bunch of guys that I'm forgetting that are currently still in the Reds system or that have been traded that are still excelling at baseball on one level or another.The Reds front office and scouts deserve a ton of credit for what's going on this year at GABP!

I know there's been some turnover through all of this but is there any one person that you guys know of that has been a constant voice during the drafting process in the organization?

westofyou
07-26-2012, 03:46 PM
1967 - Maloney, Queen and Nolan

On the field

Lee May
Rose
Perez
Pinson
Bench (cup of coffee)

George Anderson
07-26-2012, 03:59 PM
Gullett
Nolan
Zachary

On the field:

Peter
JB
Davey
Tony
Ken

Scrap Irony
07-26-2012, 04:17 PM
All Home-Grown Red Team:
C Ryan Hanigan
Devin Mesoraco
Yasmani Grandal
1b Joey Votto
Yonder Alonso
2B Justin "Red" Turner
SS Zack Cozart
MI Paul Janish
3B Todd Frazier
OF Adam Dunn
Drew Stubbs
Jay Bruce
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
SP Johnny Cueto
Homer Bailey
Mike Leake
Dustin Moseley
Travis Wood
RP Sam LeCure
Logan Ondrusek
Brad Boxberger
Aroldis Chapman
Todd Coffey
Jeremy Horst


Not great. Not great at all.

redsmetz
07-26-2012, 04:28 PM
All Home-Grown Red Team:
C Ryan Hanigan
Devin Mesoraco
Yasmani Grandal
1b Joey Votto
Yonder Alonso
2B Justin "Red" Turner
SS Zack Cozart
MI Paul Janish
3B Todd Frazier
OF Adam Dunn
Drew Stubbs
Jay Bruce
Chris Denorfia
Chris Heisey
SP Johnny Cueto
Homer Bailey
Mike Leake
Dustin Moseley
Travis Wood
RP Sam LeCure
Logan Ondrusek
Brad Boxberger
Aroldis Chapman
Todd Coffey
Jeremy Horst

Not great. Not great at all.

I'm not sure of the point you're making. I'm guessing these are Reds developed players who are currently playing in the big leagues. The fourteen I've highlighted in bold are on our current 25 man roster (save Votto, now on the DL). That's over half that of our current team developed by us and many are integral to us being in 1st place. Are you suggesting that this is somehow mediocre? Presently 13 of our 25 man roster are homegrown and it will go to 14 when Joey's activated (I'm assuming that the player sent down will be one of the guys not originally with the Reds). I'm just now sure how that's not a good thing.

dsmith421
07-26-2012, 04:38 PM
I'm not sure of the point you're making. I'm guessing these are Reds developed players who are currently playing in the big leagues. The fourteen I've highlighted in bold are on our current 25 man roster (save Votto, now on the DL). That's over half that of our current team developed by us and many are integral to us being in 1st place. Are you suggesting that this is somehow mediocre? Presently 13 of our 25 man roster are homegrown and it will go to 14 when Joey's activated (I'm assuming that the player sent down will be one of the guys not originally with the Reds). I'm just now sure how that's not a good thing.

If we start from the current 25 man roster plus Votto, there are 14 players the Reds can truly claim as homegrown -- either drafted (11) or signed as undrafted FAs (Hanigan) or from Latin America (Chapman, Cueto).

There are seven players the Reds acquired in trade. Of those seven, four were acquired in deals where the Reds gave up virtually all homegrown players:

* Phillips (acquired for Jeff Stevens, a Reds draftee)
* Valdez (acquired for Jeremy Horst, ditto)
* Latos (acquired for Alonso, Boxberger, Grandal, all draftees, plus Volquez who was more of a throw-in)
* Marshall (acquired for Torreyes, Wood, and Sappelt)

Rolen was acquired for a Reds draftee in Zach Stewart and a guy the Reds acquired very young in Encarnacion. Homegrown talent Austin Kearns was the lynchpin of the deal that brought Bray.

The remaining five players were acquired via waiver or free agency, with the only one requiring any substantial outlay being Ryan Ludwick (at $2.5M which is peanuts for an MLB team).

You would have to conclude that the Reds have been extraordinarily shrewd in building a club from the inside-out over the last half-decade.

RedsBaron
07-26-2012, 04:41 PM
The 1965 Reds were loaded with home grown talent. The starting lineup included future Hall of Famer outfielder Frank Robinson, Hall of Famer but for you know what second baseman Pete Rose, and all stars/Gold Glovers catcher Johnny Edwards and shortstop Leo Cardneas, all orginally signed and developed by the Reds.
The lineup also had outfielder Tommy Harper, a terrific all around talent who who later be an all star after leaving the Reds and who scored 126 runs for the '65 Reds.
The lineup further had near Hall of Fame outfielder Vada Pinson.
The members of the regular lineup not developed by the Reds were Deron Johnson and Gordy Coleman, neither of whom were stars until they arrived in Cincinnati.
Reserves included future Hall of Famer Tony Perez, catcher Don Pavletich (his average/OBP/slugging line that season was .319/.394/.513), and, in brief roles, future NL rookie of the year Tommy Helms, slugger Lee May, and future Mets star Art Shamsky-all home grown.
The starting pitching staff was almost all home grown, starting with 20 game winners Sammy Ellis and Jim Maloney, former ace Jim O'Toole (who sadly collapsed as a pitcher in '65), and a fellow named Nuxhall.
The bullpen also had home grown talent in Billy McCool and Teddy Davidson.

medford
07-26-2012, 05:09 PM
A guy like Phillips obviously isn't home grown, and even though your average Reds fan probably doesn't realize he played for Cleveland at one point, he's a guy I sort of consider a home "grown up" guy as in most of his significant development in the majors was done here.

I mean, how is he significantly different in that regard from Mike Leake? Mike was obviously drafted by the Reds, but has spent little time actually developing thru the minors. One could argue he was developed for the bigs by Arizona St prior to getting drafted by the Reds.

Captain Hook
07-26-2012, 05:11 PM
If we start from the current 25 man roster plus Votto, there are 14 players the Reds can truly claim as homegrown -- either drafted (11) or signed as undrafted FAs (Hanigan) or from Latin America (Chapman, Cueto).

There are seven players the Reds acquired in trade. Of those seven, four were acquired in deals where the Reds gave up virtually all homegrown players:

* Phillips (acquired for Jeff Stevens, a Reds draftee)
* Valdez (acquired for Jeremy Horst, ditto)
* Latos (acquired for Alonso, Boxberger, Grandal, all draftees, plus Volquez who was more of a throw-in)
* Marshall (acquired for Torreyes, Wood, and Sappelt)

Rolen was acquired for a Reds draftee in Zach Stewart and a guy the Reds acquired very young in Encarnacion. Homegrown talent Austin Kearns was the lynchpin of the deal that brought Bray.

The remaining five players were acquired via waiver or free agency, with the only one requiring any substantial outlay being Ryan Ludwick (at $2.5M which is peanuts for an MLB team).

You would have to conclude that the Reds have been extraordinarily shrewd in building a club from the inside-out over the last half-decade.

And that club currently sits in first place with one of the best records in baseball.I'm not sure how that's "not great at all".

Scrap Irony
07-26-2012, 05:50 PM
I'm not sure of the point you're making.

I'm saying the Red home-grown team isn't nearly as good as other squads. That's all.

For example, check out the Ranger squad. Or the Kansas City team. Or even the Indian team.

SunDeck
07-26-2012, 07:32 PM
Interesting topic. I consider it less important to have players make their way up to the big league club than it is to have a good big league club, so if talent needs to be traded away to achieve that, so be it. But this has gotten me to thinking about the real strength the Reds have right now, which seems to be the pitching staff and it's solid roots in the farm system. By far, the best thing to happen to the Reds has been the rebuilding of their farm, but now I'm wondering if the best thing really hasn't been more specifically the job they have done developing pitching. Out of their best two position players, Votto is home grown and Phillips was claimed from the Cleveland reject pile, but in terms of pitching, it's the home grown crew that has had the most effect, especially [Praying hands]with Bailey coming around[/Praying hands].

RedlegJake
07-27-2012, 02:34 PM
I'm saying the Red home-grown team isn't nearly as good as other squads. That's all.

For example, check out the Ranger squad. Or the Kansas City team. Or even the Indian team.

All that tells me is that the Reds have been extraordinarily shrewd in trading and keeping the right players or they wouldn't be sniffing a good team right now!

Tom Servo
07-27-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm saying the Red home-grown team isn't nearly as good as other squads. That's all.

For example, check out the Ranger squad. Or the Kansas City team. Or even the Indian team.
Lord knows it's benefitted the Royals and Indians tremendously.

Scrap Irony
07-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Sigh.

It was a tangential discussion, one that focused on Cincinnati's lack of pitching acumen or development before the emergence of Cueto, Leake, Bailey, and Chapman.

It had little to do with any other conversation, but was (I thought) an interesting side-note to it.

It wasn't meant as some sort of castigation of the pitchers currently in the Red pipeline or pitching in the major leagues.

RedsBaron
07-27-2012, 02:54 PM
I mentioned the 1965 Reds, WOY mentioned the 1967 Reds and George Anderson mentioned the 1976 Reds. We could of added the 1970 NL champs, as the '70 Reds had a starting lineup that had 7 of 8 regulars being "home grown": Bench, May, Helms, Concepcion, Perez, Carbo and Rose--Tolan was the only exception.
The Reds for two decades, 1956-76, had an amazing run of home grown talent: Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson, Curt Flood, Jim O'Toole, Claude Osteen, Mike Cuellar, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Tommy Helms, Johnny Bench, Lee May, Jim Maloney, Sam Ellis, Billy McCool, Tommy Harper, Art Shamsky, Dave Concepcion, Gary Nolan, Mel Queen, Wayne Simpson, Don Gullett, Ken Griffey Sr., Bernie Carbo, Hal McRae, Pat Zachary, Rawly Eastwick, Will McEnaney, Leo Cardenas, Johnny Edwards, Don Pavetich, et al.
In retrospect it is somewhat disappointing that it was only at the end of that amazing run, 1975 and 1976, that the Reds finally brought home World Series crowns.

redsmetz
07-27-2012, 03:36 PM
Sigh.

It was a tangential discussion, one that focused on Cincinnati's lack of pitching acumen or development before the emergence of Cueto, Leake, Bailey, and Chapman.

It had little to do with any other conversation, but was (I thought) an interesting side-note to it.

It wasn't meant as some sort of castigation of the pitchers currently in the Red pipeline or pitching in the major leagues.

I understand now what you were getting at, but didn't come off like that, which is fine (hindsight is 20/20, as they say). It diminished the present club's make-up and the team's success by just adding in those players who are presently in the ML's albeit most with other clubs, long after they've sailed from our shores, if you will. Then we all got to smack you around a bit.

oregonred
07-27-2012, 03:43 PM
This is one of the best things about this team that makes it fun to watch. Plus management has been shrewd in using the home grown talent to gain other important pieces.

Most systems spawn a Votto type player about once every 25 years. So that alone makes the Reds development over the past 5-6 seasons an overwhelming success.

Chip R
07-27-2012, 04:57 PM
The 1965 Reds were loaded with home grown talent. The starting lineup included future Hall of Famer outfielder Frank Robinson, Hall of Famer but for you know what second baseman Pete Rose, and all stars/Gold Glovers catcher Johnny Edwards and shortstop Leo Cardneas, all orginally signed and developed by the Reds.
The lineup also had outfielder Tommy Harper, a terrific all around talent who who later be an all star after leaving the Reds and who scored 126 runs for the '65 Reds.
The lineup further had near Hall of Fame outfielder Vada Pinson.
The members of the regular lineup not developed by the Reds were Deron Johnson and Gordy Coleman, neither of whom were stars until they arrived in Cincinnati.
Reserves included future Hall of Famer Tony Perez, catcher Don Pavletich (his average/OBP/slugging line that season was .319/.394/.513), and, in brief roles, future NL rookie of the year Tommy Helms, slugger Lee May, and future Mets star Art Shamsky-all home grown.
The starting pitching staff was almost all home grown, starting with 20 game winners Sammy Ellis and Jim Maloney, former ace Jim O'Toole (who sadly collapsed as a pitcher in '65), and a fellow named Nuxhall.
The bullpen also had home grown talent in Billy McCool and Teddy Davidson.

It's much more amazing to have as many home-grown players on the roster these days than it was then. Now there are exponentially larger salaries combined with arbitration, free agency and 6-year minor league free agency.

savafan
07-27-2012, 10:45 PM
I feel as though the last significant starting pitcher developed by the Reds prior to the guys mentioned, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman, was Tom Browning in 1985. This is just my opinion, but that's quite a long period of time between developing starters.

George Anderson
07-27-2012, 10:54 PM
I feel as though the last significant starting pitcher developed by the Reds prior to the guys mentioned, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman, was Tom Browning in 1985. This is just my opinion, but that's quite a long period of time between developing starters.

Browning was indeed the last quality starter developed. I can't think who would be second it was that bad.

dsmith421
07-27-2012, 11:14 PM
Browning was indeed the last quality starter developed. I can't think who would be second it was that bad.

Brett Tomko. I looked.

Yikes.

Vottomatic
07-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Next year with Rolen gone, other than BP......when Cueto, Bailey, or Leake pitches and Mez catches, the entire infield other than 2nd base will be home grown with Frazier at 3B. Shoot, even the OF will be except for LF if Stubbs or Heisey is in CF.

traderumor
07-28-2012, 10:31 AM
I think it is a little bit too strict definition to not consider Brandon Phillips homegrown. He had been through two organizations where he failed to develop, then he comes to the Reds and develops at the major league level at a young age. I consider him to fit the concept of "homegrown."

Vottomatic
07-28-2012, 10:34 AM
I don't consider BP part of the discussion of home grown.

I do consider BP a Red through and through and look forward to him being in the Reds HOF some day. So glad we traded for him.

traderumor
07-28-2012, 11:31 AM
I don't consider BP part of the discussion of home grown.

I do consider BP a Red through and through and look forward to him being in the Reds HOF some day. So glad we traded for him.I'm challenging the definition, think "homegrown = drafted by Reds" is unnecessarily limiting to the point being made in this thread. In a case like Phillips, its like saying I didn't raise the flowers in my garden because I bought them from Lowes.

Vottomatic
07-28-2012, 12:20 PM
I'm challenging the definition, think "homegrown = drafted by Reds" is unnecessarily limiting to the point being made in this thread. In a case like Phillips, its like saying I didn't raise the flowers in my garden because I bought them from Lowes.

I tend to view it another way. We traded our neighbor tomatoes for their beautiful flowers. Cleveland got tomatoes and we got BP.

Big Klu
07-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Next year with Rolen gone, other than BP......when Cueto, Bailey, or Leake pitches and Mez catches, the entire infield other than 2nd base will be home grown with Frazier at 3B. Shoot, even the OF will be except for LF if Stubbs or Heisey is in CF.

Hanigan is also homegrown, so it doesn't matter who is catching.

kaldaniels
07-28-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm challenging the definition, think "homegrown = drafted by Reds" is unnecessarily limiting to the point being made in this thread. In a case like Phillips, its like saying I didn't raise the flowers in my garden because I bought them from Lowes.

If you want to challenge the baseball meaning of homegrown, that's for another day, another thread.

Phillips is not homegrown.

RedlegJake
07-28-2012, 07:06 PM
I can't call BP homegrown. He did a ton of developing with Montreal and then Cleveland - we got a kid ready to blossom, with a chip on his shoulder that they gave up on, with something to prove. He felt accepted and wanted by Cincinnati and exploded into prominence but all the development had been done in other organizations - they were just too locked into his "attitude" that they saw something bad when what there really was just great drive and youthful flippancy they couldn't see past.