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View Full Version : Putting the 2012 Reds Into Perspective



Benihana
07-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Are they the best Reds team since...

1990?
1976?
2010?

Best team of your lifetime?
Best pitching staff they've ever had?

Of course all of this is predicated by the usual disclaimer- let's see what happens the rest of the way...

Cedric
07-29-2012, 01:46 PM
Are they the best Reds team since...

1990?
1976?
2010?

Best team of your lifetime?
Best pitching staff they've ever had?

Of course all of this is predicated by the usual disclaimer- let's see what happens the rest of the way...

Best pitching I think. I liked the 99 team better except for the gaping hole at the backend of the bullpen.

_Sir_Charles_
07-29-2012, 01:46 PM
Best since 76. Best pitching in my lifetime, but overall...76 would've pounded them. That offense....*drool*

cincrazy
07-29-2012, 01:47 PM
Are they the best Reds team since...

1990?
1976?
2010?

Best team of your lifetime?
Best pitching staff they've ever had?

Of course all of this is predicated by the usual disclaimer- let's see what happens the rest of the way...

I think they're better than the 2010 team, and on par with the 1999 team. The 1999 team had a better offense, but no single player as good as Votto. Both bullpens are pretty dominant, but the 2012 starting rotation is better than the 1999 rotation. Too pretty close clubs IMO.

wolfboy
07-29-2012, 01:54 PM
I think there's still a lot of baseball to play ths season.

George Anderson
07-29-2012, 02:04 PM
I think there's still a lot of baseball to play ths season.

Agreed, this team still may not even make the playoffs.

Superdude
07-29-2012, 02:16 PM
I think they're better than the 2010 team, and on par with the 1999 team. The 1999 team had a better offense, but no single player as good as Votto. Both bullpens are pretty dominant, but the 2012 starting rotation is better than the 1999 rotation. Too pretty close clubs IMO.

They showed the opening day lineup in '99 on the broadcast last night. I was about ten at the time, so I was more interested in legos, but what a solid 1-4. Cameron, Larkin, Casey, Vaughn. Would certainly be nice to have those first two right about now.

mth123
07-29-2012, 02:54 PM
I think there's still a lot of baseball to play ths season.

There's only 62 games. I think the meaning of "a lot" should be debated for 250 posts or so and then we can pull this thread up and say I told you say if the last 62 games proves to be less telling than the first 100. ;) It seems to be the Redszone way these days.

My take is that this is a better team than 2010. Add a Lefty bat who can get on base vs. RHP to replace or platoon with Stubbs and its probably better than 1999. Not sure beyond that. As you say. There is still a lot of season left.

fearofpopvol1
07-29-2012, 02:58 PM
Too early to say. This team is not as good offensively as the 2010 team, but the pitching is unquestionably better. Still, because the pitching is better, I might say they're the best team since the '99 team. That was a pretty balanced team, sans the backend of the bullpen.

M2
07-29-2012, 03:01 PM
Best team since 1999, to whom they're almost identical.

_Sir_Charles_
07-29-2012, 03:03 PM
Best team since 1999, to whom they're almost identical.

Really? I think the pitching is like night and day. I didn't get to watch the 99 team as much as I'd like to...but even just looking at the stats...seems pretty clear with team is better. But maybe it's just me. I'm a pitching/defense guy. I'll sacrifice offense every time for pitching/defense.

Looking at that club though, the thing that stands out at me is the OBP of the starters. Good lord!

Vottomatic
07-29-2012, 03:08 PM
I can't wait until someone dredges this thread up in about 60 games and quotes people. That's always a good time when someone does that. :eek: :lol:

wheels
07-29-2012, 03:17 PM
They compare favorably with the 1990 club.

Great pitching top to bottom (I actually like the 2012 rotation better), especially in the pen. They are/were both superior defensive teams, and they both had just enough offense to get by.

I think I'd have to give the nod to this year's team because of the Votto factor.

Vottomatic
07-29-2012, 03:21 PM
The 1990 team had both power and speed offensively. Eric Davis, Larkin, even Sabo could steal you a base, along with Duncan and others. They also knew how to manufacture runs.

Rijo was as lights out as they come and the bullpen is in all baseball history books as one of the greatest, "The Nasty Boys".

The Big Red Machine's offense is the greatest the Reds have ever seen. But the pitching was underrated.

M2
07-29-2012, 03:22 PM
Really? I think the pitching is like night and day. I didn't get to watch the 99 team as much as I'd like to...but even just looking at the stats...seems pretty clear with team is better. But maybe it's just me. I'm a pitching/defense guy. I'll sacrifice offense every time for pitching/defense.

The pitching in '99 was better than the offense. It just doesn't look that way at first glance because scoring throughout baseball was insanely high. NL teams averaged 5.00 rpg in 1999. The Reds had a 3.98 ERA (4.36 rpg overall). NL scoring this season is 4.21 rpg. Relative to league scoring, the '12 Reds are in the same basic spot as '99 in terms of run prevention.

The '99 Reds had better defense. It was one of the best defensive teams you're ever likely to see. Both teams had deep power bullpens and steady five-man rotations (the Guzman trade and Neagle return solidified the '99 rotation). Yet the '99 team did not have an ace like Cueto.

Both teams had some OB issues (essentially league average for both) and rode their power to score runs, though the '99 team had speed too.

Both teams also had busy offseasons prior to the season and got off to slow starts before hitting their stride.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 03:31 PM
The pitching in '99 was better than the offense. It just doesn't look that way at first glance because scoring throughout baseball was insanely high. NL teams averaged 5.00 rpg in 1999. The Reds had a 3.98 ERA (4.36 rpg overall). NL scoring this season is 4.21 rpg. Relative to league scoring, the '12 Reds are in the same basic spot as '99 in terms of run prevention.

The Reds ERA+ in 1999 was 117, which is very good. The Reds ERA+ in 2012 is 127, which hasn't been bested in a full season since 2003. This team has better pitching.

wheels
07-29-2012, 03:37 PM
The Reds ERA+ in 1999 was 117, which is very good. The Reds ERA+ in 2012 is 127, which hasn't been bested in a full season since 2003. This team has better pitching.

Doug, am I understanding your post correctly?

I think you're saying the 2003 Reds had an ERA plus higher than 127.

_Sir_Charles_
07-29-2012, 03:46 PM
Doug, am I understanding your post correctly?

I think you're saying the 2003 Reds had an ERA plus higher than 127.

Not the 2003 Reds. A TEAM in 2003. Not sure which team though.

Tom Servo
07-29-2012, 04:47 PM
They have more wins at this point then the 2010 Reds did.

wheels
07-29-2012, 05:00 PM
Not the 2003 Reds. A TEAM in 2003. Not sure which team though.

Ahhhh... Makes more sense than my reading of it.

Kc61
07-29-2012, 06:23 PM
Been a Reds fan since 1961. This has certainly turned out to be one of the best teams Reds have had.

Last starting staff I recall similar to this in quality is the Rijo, Jackson, Browning staff in 1990.

Nasty Boys was a better bullpen IMO. Imagine Chapman in that pen, though. Imagine Charleton (sixth) Dibble (seventh) Chapman (8th) Myers (9th). Dibble and Chapman, whew. Maybe Marshall as the LOOGY.

When the Reds have had great defenses, they have won. The 1975-76 teams had great defenses. The 1990 team had a great defense. This team is up there. Phillips is sensational defensively and I like sure handed SSs like Cozart. And Scott Rolen at third, just excellent in the infield and the outfield is very good too. As is Hanigan for that matter.

Offense is doing better than I expected, but I'm afraid it will have trouble against big time pitchers unless it adds some OBP and LHH. The other top Reds teams had more well rounded offenses.

Good team, but - as they say - hasn't won anything quite yet.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 06:28 PM
Doug, am I understanding your post correctly?

I think you're saying the 2003 Reds had an ERA plus higher than 127.

As sir charles said, I meant any team, not just a Reds team. This team has great pitching.

powersackers
07-29-2012, 06:40 PM
Its tempting to make statements when we are most likely at the highest high on a season. 11 or 12 days ago when we were losing at home to Arizona no one was calling this team the best in decades.

dougdirt
07-29-2012, 07:06 PM
Its tempting to make statements when we are most likely at the highest high on a season. 11 or 12 days ago when we were losing at home to Arizona no one was calling this team the best in decades.

I think this is the best team in at least a decade. I am not ready to say they are better than the 99 team, though I do think they have better staying power than the 99 team did because our pitching is real. Most certainly am not ready to say it is anywhere near that 1990 team until they at least reach the WS.

RedsManRick
07-29-2012, 08:32 PM
I'm waiting until the end of the season to pass judgment. That said, this team is definitely Red Hot.

1990 Cincinnati Reds Rap: Red Hot - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGfY2l6Niw)

Raisor
07-29-2012, 08:40 PM
That was the beginning of my senior year of highschool. I did NOT dress like Myers.

dougdirt
07-30-2012, 06:47 AM
That was the beginning of my senior year of highschool. I did NOT dress like Myers.

No, he just dressed like you, right? :laugh:

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 07:23 AM
I'm waiting until the end of the season to pass judgment. That said, this team is definitely Red Hot.

1990 Cincinnati Reds Rap: Red Hot - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGfY2l6Niw)

Holy cow. My thoughts:

1) I can't believe I never saw that before.

2) I can't believe how much acid washed denim was in that video.

3) What was Dibble's story in his part? He looked like Clark Griswold before he jumped in the pool with Christie Brinkley.

4) I never realized how much Charlton looked like Owen Wilson, at least in grainy 22 year old videos seen on an iPhone.

5) I've heard some say that Sabo may have juiced back in the day...he didn't look like it in that mock turtleneck.

6) I can't believe I never saw that before.

7) If this went viral before the HOF voting, do you think B Lark of "B Lark and the Homeboys" would have still been voted in?

8) What outfit lost out to the one Randy Myers wore?

9) ED's glasses were pretty...interesting.

10) I can't believe I never saw that before.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 08:48 AM
I was 13 when that came out. I have had those lyrics burned in my head for 22 years.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 09:33 AM
When was the last time the Reds won 17 of 19?

cumberlandreds
07-30-2012, 09:52 AM
When was the last time the Reds won 17 of 19?

My guess would be at least 1999. I know the 75 team went on a crazy streak of 41 out of 50 or something like that. That's still one of the more amazing in season streaks I can remember by anyone.

Sea Ray
07-30-2012, 09:55 AM
Been a Reds fan since 1961. This has certainly turned out to be one of the best teams Reds have had.

Last starting staff I recall similar to this in quality is the Rijo, Jackson, Browning staff in 1990.



This yr's starting staff tops the 1990 one big time because of the dropoff at #4 and 5. In fact Danny Jackson was nothing to write home about with 6-6 record and starting only 22 games. Jack Armstrong go off to a great start but tailed off badly in the second half. Win big prizes if you can even identify the team's #4 and 5 starters that year

George Anderson
07-30-2012, 10:10 AM
. Win big prizes if you can even identify the team's #4 and 5 starters that year

Rijo
Browning
Jackson
Armstrong
Mahler

The Operator
07-30-2012, 10:19 AM
Norm Charlton and Scott Scudder both started some games in 1990 too, IIRC.

Sea Ray
07-30-2012, 10:56 AM
Rijo
Browning
Jackson
Armstrong
Mahler

So who were the #4 and 5 guys? Armstrong and Mahler? Mahler pitched more games out of the bullpen than the rotation. In the post season Jackson was the #3 starter but he was in and out of the rotation until the 2nd half of the yr. My point: #4 & 5 was a revolving door and we're far better in that position than we were in 1990. Of course the strength of the 1990 staff was the bullpen and that's what carried them to the championship

wheels
07-30-2012, 11:06 AM
So who were the #4 and 5 guys? Armstrong and Mahler? Mahler pitched more games out of the bullpen than the rotation. In the post season Jackson was the #3 starter but he was in and out of the rotation until the 2nd half of the yr. My point: #4 & 5 was a revolving door and we're far better in that position than we were in 1990. Of course the strength of the 1990 staff was the bullpen and that's what carried them to the championship

I know Chris Hammond made some starts too. I saw his debut after the club returned from a nightmarish west coast swing.

Does anyone remember Standing Ovation night?

George Anderson
07-30-2012, 11:27 AM
I know Chris Hammond made some starts too. I saw his debut after the club returned from a nightmarish west coast swing.

Does anyone remember Standing Ovation night?

Hammond had 3 starts. Charlton had 16, Scott Scudder had 10 and Ron Robinson had 5

What was Standing Ovation Night?

Cyclone792
07-30-2012, 11:57 AM
This squad is better than the 2010 squad, and they're the best squad since the calendar flipped to 2000, but I'm not yet ready to say they're better than the 1999 squad.

As has been already mentioned, the 1999 squad had an all-world defense and a shutdown bullpen (this year we're very strong in both too). The 2012 Reds can stay hot most of the rest of the year and send 1999 (along with 1990 and/or 1995) in the rearview mirror, or they could settle down and coast their way to 90 wins. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Speaking of 1999, I was glancing at their roster, and unless I made a mistake, I think every player who appeared for the Reds that season is now out of the big leagues. Reyes and Tomko pitched in the majors last year, and I believe Dawkins was in the minors last year as well. I didn't flip through everyone - I figured the guys who were 30+ in 1999 were long out of baseball by now - but it appears everyone on that 1999 team is now out of the majors.

And boy do I suddenly feel old ...

Big Klu
07-30-2012, 01:48 PM
The 1992 rotation was pretty strong:

Jose Rijo
Tom Browning
Tim Belcher
Greg Swindell
Chris Hammond

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 01:57 PM
This squad is better than the 2010 squad, and they're the best squad since the calendar flipped to 2000, but I'm not yet ready to say they're better than the 1999 squad.

As has been already mentioned, the 1999 squad had an all-world defense and a shutdown bullpen (this year we're very strong in both too). The 2012 Reds can stay hot most of the rest of the year and send 1999 (along with 1990 and/or 1995) in the rearview mirror, or they could settle down and coast their way to 90 wins. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Speaking of 1999, I was glancing at their roster, and unless I made a mistake, I think every player who appeared for the Reds that season is now out of the big leagues. Reyes and Tomko pitched in the majors last year, and I believe Dawkins was in the minors last year as well. I didn't flip through everyone - I figured the guys who were 30+ in 1999 were long out of baseball by now - but it appears everyone on that 1999 team is now out of the majors.

And boy do I suddenly feel old ...

Kind of hard to believe. Tomko did pitch this season in the minors for the Reds. Not sure if he's still pitching though.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 02:02 PM
Kind of hard to believe. Tomko did pitch this season in the minors for the Reds. Not sure if he's still pitching though.
He's scheduled to start tonight for Louisville, looking for his first W. :)

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 02:03 PM
He's scheduled to start tonight for Louisville, looking for his first W. :)

Which reminds me...starting pitching depth would be a nice get for the trade deadline. :D

Big Klu
07-30-2012, 02:25 PM
I think Tomko has spent most of the season on Louisville's DL.

savafan
07-30-2012, 02:27 PM
I was 13 when that came out. I have had those lyrics burned in my head for 22 years.

Ditto :thumbup:

Crumbley
07-30-2012, 02:31 PM
I can't even process that video. My brain is fried.

wheels
07-30-2012, 02:59 PM
Hammond had 3 starts. Charlton had 16, Scott Scudder had 10 and Ron Robinson had 5

What was Standing Ovation Night?

They had a tough trip out west, so a bunch of radio celebs (Collinsworth, Furman, etc) begged the fans for a few days before that first home game to give them a standing ovation when they took the field.

Hammond started and got kicked around for four runs in the first (Mitchell hit a towering drive for the Giants), but they ultimately came back and won. It was probably the best game a saw in person all year (until game two of the World Series).

I wish I could remember the date.

RedsBaron
07-30-2012, 03:41 PM
Best since 76. Best pitching in my lifetime, but overall...76 would've pounded them. That offense....*drool*

That's where I'm leaning, but in the end the 1990 team won a World Series, so it has to outrank the 2012 team at this point. This team could still fade and ultimately rank behind the 1999 team as well. I am very comfoprtable in stating that they will not outrank the 1976 team. The only Reds team that might outrank the 1976 Reds is the 1975 Reds.