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Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 06:46 AM
Please continue discussion here.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 06:57 AM
Frankly, Jay Bruce has become one of the weakest offensive links in the lineup. He's not much better than Stubbs or Heisey at this point, other than his HR's. He's becoming Adam Dunn with better defense. Platoon him.


From the other thread.

Not sure that I totally agree with this, but unless he gets it going my guess is that he will be hitting 6th when Votto comes back, or soon there after.

kbrake
07-30-2012, 07:22 AM
I don't think Bruce is even close to Adam Dunn when it comes to an offensive player.

OldXOhio
07-30-2012, 08:18 AM
From the other thread.

Not sure that I totally agree with this, but unless he gets it going my guess is that he will be hitting 6th when Votto comes back, or soon there after.

What has Dusty shown you previously that'd make you think he'd make that switch? Short of a monumental collapse, I don't see Bruce being dropped out of the 5 hole.

medford
07-30-2012, 08:48 AM
Hasn't Dusty dropped Bruce in the past when he was in a funk? Can't remember for sure, so correct me if my memory is failing me.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 09:43 AM
With approximately 30 hours to go until the deadline, here are my current priorities accompanied by their perceived cost on a 1-to-4 scale:

1. Justin Upton (4) - the only guy I would give up Frazier, Bailey or Leake for (not all 3), but I'd prefer to do it in the offseason because we need SP down the stretch.
2. Shin Soo Choo (3) - If we can get him without giving up Frazier, Hamilton, Stephenson or a major league SP, do it.
3. David DeJesus (2) - I'd prefer him as a cheaper alternative to Pence. He hits RHP and can play LF or CF and is signed through 2013. Would want to platoon him with Stubbs and Ludwick.
4. Hunter Pence (3) - Only if Choo is unavailable and the Cubs won't trade DeJesus in the division. Still would have to figure out who plays CF, and he's really expensive next year.
5. Shane Victorino (2) - Would still do the Ondrusek straight up swap.
6. Juan Pierre (2) - Only because he would cost way less in talent than Span.
7. Denard Span (3) - I wouldn't trade a top 3 prospect for a guy who isn't much of an upgrade to Stubbs. We'd be paying in talent for his 3 years of team control which we don't really need.

I have only included names that are strongly rumored to be on the block, hence no Dexter Fowler.

RedEye
07-30-2012, 09:43 AM
Looks like you can strike Pence from that list.

SidneySlicker
07-30-2012, 09:51 AM
Mark it down the Indians will be looking for a haul for Choo. They are already fighting
An uphill battle of fan perceptiion that they trade away all their quality players and their attendance
Was bad early in the season even when they were in it. My guess s they will start with a mlb
With 3 yrs experience as was stated and 2 top ten prospects. Ridiculous I know but they have an asset that they really don't have to trade at ths time and its a sellers market.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 09:56 AM
If the Reds did add Choo, I think they'd still need Victorino or someone to cover CF with expertise. Ludwick and Frazier could cover RF and LF vs LHP and Bruce and Choo could vs RHP. It would all be very unlikely though. For the sake of it:

Vs RHP
Victorino
Choo
Votto
BP
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
C

vs LHP
Victorino
Frazier
Votto
BP
Ludwick
Rolen
Cozart
C

bucksfan2
07-30-2012, 10:03 AM
With approximately 30 hours to go until the deadline, here are my current priorities accompanied by their perceived cost on a 1-to-4 scale:

1. Justin Upton (4) - the only guy I would give up Frazier, Bailey or Leake for (not all 3), but I'd prefer to do it in the offseason because we need SP down the stretch.
2. Shin Soo Choo (3) - If we can get him without giving up Frazier, Hamilton, Stephenson or a major league SP, do it.
3. David DeJesus (2) - I'd prefer him as a cheaper alternative to Pence. He hits RHP and can play LF or CF and is signed through 2013. Would want to platoon him with Stubbs and Ludwick.
4. Hunter Pence (3) - Only if Choo is unavailable and the Cubs won't trade DeJesus in the division. Still would have to figure out who plays CF, and he's really expensive next year.
5. Shane Victorino (2) - Would still do the Ondrusek straight up swap.
6. Juan Pierre (2) - Only because he would cost way less in talent than Span.
7. Denard Span (3) - I wouldn't trade a top 3 prospect for a guy who isn't much of an upgrade to Stubbs. We'd be paying in talent for his 3 years of team control which we don't really need.

I have only included names that are strongly rumored to be on the block, hence no Dexter Fowler.

Justin Upton isn't getting moved. If by chance he does the haul will be a Mat Latos type haul, one the Reds don't have or can't afford to give up.

Choo would be my #1 choice right now. However I don't think the Reds will move Stubbs, rather Choo would be a LF with Ludwick heading towards the bench. The Reds built a team around pitching and defense, I don't see them giving up a key cog to that in Stubbs.

If the price for Victorino is Ondrusek and the Reds are unwilling to take on salary I will be disappointed. Bob opened up his pocket books and the Reds have increased attendance by 10%(?). To balk at that type of deal because of money screams John Allen and Carl Linder.

Span or Fowler would be very nice I just don't really see the fit looking forward especially at the cost.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 10:09 AM
Looks like you can strike Pence from that list.

From everything I've seen, Pence is still a Phillie despite last night's report.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 10:10 AM
Justin Upton isn't getting moved. If by chance he does the haul will be a Mat Latos type haul, one the Reds don't have or can't afford to give up.

Choo would be my #1 choice right now. However I don't think the Reds will move Stubbs, rather Choo would be a LF with Ludwick heading towards the bench. The Reds built a team around pitching and defense, I don't see them giving up a key cog to that in Stubbs.

If the price for Victorino is Ondrusek and the Reds are unwilling to take on salary I will be disappointed. Bob opened up his pocket books and the Reds have increased attendance by 10%(?). To balk at that type of deal because of money screams John Allen and Carl Linder.

Span or Fowler would be very nice I just don't really see the fit looking forward especially at the cost.

Upton would be a target for the offseason IF we don't acquire an OF that is signed beyond this season (ie Victorino or Pierre). Once you remove him from the list, my top two choices are Choo and DeJesus, in that order.

Edd Roush
07-30-2012, 10:31 AM
With approximately 30 hours to go until the deadline, here are my current priorities accompanied by their perceived cost on a 1-to-4 scale:

1. Justin Upton (4) - the only guy I would give up Frazier, Bailey or Leake for (not all 3), but I'd prefer to do it in the offseason because we need SP down the stretch.
2. Shin Soo Choo (3) - If we can get him without giving up Frazier, Hamilton, Stephenson or a major league SP, do it.
3. David DeJesus (2) - I'd prefer him as a cheaper alternative to Pence. He hits RHP and can play LF or CF and is signed through 2013. Would want to platoon him with Stubbs and Ludwick.
4. Hunter Pence (3) - Only if Choo is unavailable and the Cubs won't trade DeJesus in the division. Still would have to figure out who plays CF, and he's really expensive next year.
5. Shane Victorino (2) - Would still do the Ondrusek straight up swap.
6. Juan Pierre (2) - Only because he would cost way less in talent than Span.
7. Denard Span (3) - I wouldn't trade a top 3 prospect for a guy who isn't much of an upgrade to Stubbs. We'd be paying in talent for his 3 years of team control which we don't really need.

I have only included names that are strongly rumored to be on the block, hence no Dexter Fowler.

I think my list is much different than yours. I think Denard Span is a major upgrade over Stubbs. His OBP is much better and he has done much better defensively per most of the prevalent defensive metrics in the past couple years. Additionally, he is on a very team-friendly deal. I view Denard Span as a core piece for this Reds' team going forward.

If Pierre or DeJesus could play centerfield as well as Span, I may view them higher than Span due to the fact that they would both make great platoon partners for Stubbs. That being said, even if they could play that plus D, I am not sure if Dusty would correctly implement the platoon in the first place. Therefore, I view Span as a better fit than both DeJesus and Pierre. Even if I could get DeJesus and Pierre for next to nothing and Span cost me Hamilton or Cingrani or Corcino, I think I go with Span at those prices because I do see him as a great fit for the next 3.5 years.

Furthermore, I think Victorino may be as good as Span, but he is gone after this year. Since I see Span as a core piece, I like him (at the same prospect price) more than Victorino. If it was Victorino for essentially nothing and Span cost me Hamilton or Cingrani or Corcino, I think I would go with Victorino.

I have stated on the Trade Targets thread that I do not see Pence as a fit due to his inability to play center, his bad contract and lack of real upgrade over Ludwick. I actually am to the point of not wanting Pence at any price unless the Phillies pick up a good chuck of his contract, which I donít see them doing.

I have stated on the other thread that I do like Choo a lot. If my scouts told me that Choo or Bruce could play center competently, I would want Choo (at the same prospect price) more than Span. However, I feel like the Indians price for Choo will be much higher than the price for Span. I want Choo as an upgrade over Ludwick or as a huge upgrade in center, but I just think they may ask for Hamilton+Corcino+Frazier or something ridiculous, especially if the Pirates are willing to go Marte+Cole/Tallion. Again these packages are complete guesses on my part, but I think Choo will be very expensive.

As for Upton, I think he would be a great get. His price is probably artificially low due to his low HR/FB % (9.2% in 2012 compared to 13.8% for his career), but he has never played centerfield and I am very happy with both of our corner outfielders for 2012 and 2013. I know Ludwick is on a mutual option, but I think he knows he is a much better hitter in GABP than 90% of the other ballparks out there (as most hitters are), so I believe Ludwick will be back for at least 2013 and probably 2014 as well. Therefore, you will have to move either Upton or Bruce to center. If Upton was the same prospect price as Span, I take Upton. Since Upton will be 2 to 3x more expensive than Span, I honestly see Span as the best fit on this list.

Give me Span (who I think we may be able to get for Heisey + Lotzkar/Sulbaran + 2 C Level prospects) and then start printing playoff tickets.

SidneySlicker
07-30-2012, 10:31 AM
Upton would be a target for the offseason IF we don't acquire an OF that is signed beyond this season (ie Victorino or Pierre). Once you remove him from the list, my top two choices are Choo and DeJesus, in that order.

With reports Castellini won't add payroll or part with A+ prospects, its hard to believe he'll add a piece that will costs 28 mill over the next two years and require the trade haul that Upton would . They'll find a cheaper option or stand pat.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2012, 10:41 AM
With approximately 30 hours to go until the deadline, here are my current priorities accompanied by their perceived cost on a 1-to-4 scale:

1. Justin Upton (4) - the only guy I would give up Frazier, Bailey or Leake for (not all 3), but I'd prefer to do it in the offseason because we need SP down the stretch.
2. Shin Soo Choo (3) - If we can get him without giving up Frazier, Hamilton, Stephenson or a major league SP, do it.
3. David DeJesus (2) - I'd prefer him as a cheaper alternative to Pence. He hits RHP and can play LF or CF and is signed through 2013. Would want to platoon him with Stubbs and Ludwick.
4. Hunter Pence (3) - Only if Choo is unavailable and the Cubs won't trade DeJesus in the division. Still would have to figure out who plays CF, and he's really expensive next year.
5. Shane Victorino (2) - Would still do the Ondrusek straight up swap.
6. Juan Pierre (2) - Only because he would cost way less in talent than Span.
7. Denard Span (3) - I wouldn't trade a top 3 prospect for a guy who isn't much of an upgrade to Stubbs. We'd be paying in talent for his 3 years of team control which we don't really need.

I have only included names that are strongly rumored to be on the block, hence no Dexter Fowler.

1. Pass on Justin Upton, cost is too prohibitive for an underachiever.
2. Choo's game & approach to the game I love but he isn't a CF so unless your trading a COF to get him, forget it.
3. DeJesus could work out perfectly and likely wouldn't cost too much but he will cost a decent prospect or 2 if the Cubs pay some of his salary, which I would guess might be a part of the deal. But worth it likely.
4. Pence similar to Choo in that he'd be playing out of position but I like his game a whole lot less. Not to mention his salary which I'm sure Philly would chip in as little as they could.
5. The more I look at Victorino the more I like him. One of the few out there who can hit a curveball somewhat consistently from both sides of the plate. Something I think we lack as a team. If the Phils pay some of his contract I think we can make this deal. Better do it before Pittsburgh does.
6. Pierre, worst case scenario addition only. In fact this deal has a chance to be a negative on this team.
7. Span is a guy I like and as usual it's said that his team wants the moon for him. Well maybe they do in which case I don't think he is so special to warrant it with a DeJesus or Victorino available for much less.

A few others
Chase Headley - He I would pay a premium for because he is a LHH with a nice skillset that we need some of and plays a position of need for beyond this season which he is so conveniently signed for and he is versatile enough to play other positions for us in the short term. I wouldn't give up a Latos package for him and I really don't believe the Pads believe they can get such a return either. But it will cost a Heisey or Frazier and probably 2 prospects like Corcino or Cingrani & someone like Didi. I think GABP would help him decide to stay in the future but can we afford him long term for such a haul, we'd need to IMO?! Tough one but someone I wouldn't wanna rule out just yet.

Ryan Sweeney - This one could be the perfect guy for us. He's one I think that would really flourish with a change of scenery and in a more hitter friendly park. He's not the ideal guy at the top of the lineup but he has a history of close to a .350 OBP%, .280 hitter and near .400 Slg. while playing all 3 OF positions. Since he hasn't had a great season in Boston I think he will come the cheapest and he has another season plus before FA.

Emilio Bonifacio - Still like him but his name isn't really circulating, same with Fowler. But I think Bonifacio could be had with a Stubbs plus Sulbaran/Lotzkar type package and I would do it. And then I'd add Sweeney/DeJesus on top of it.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 10:46 AM
With reports Castellini won't add payroll or part with A+ prospects, its hard to believe he'll add a piece that will costs 28 mill over the next two years and require the trade haul that Upton would . They'll find a cheaper option or stand pat.

Where does it say that Bob won't add payroll? All the stories I've read have said the attendance boost allows the Reds to bump payroll by up to $3 million, for the right player.

_Sir_Charles_
07-30-2012, 10:46 AM
With reports Castellini won't add payroll or part with A+ prospects, its hard to believe he'll add a piece that will costs 28 mill over the next two years and require the trade haul that Upton would . They'll find a cheaper option or stand pat.

Actually, I heard the exact opposite. Walt said that they could take on some payroll.

SidneySlicker
07-30-2012, 11:02 AM
Where does it say that Bob won't add payroll? All the stories I've read have said the attendance boost allows the Reds to bump payroll by up to $3 million, for the right player.

Rumblings. Nothing concrete, but 3 mil ain't gonna put a dent in the 14mil the reds would owe upton next year.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 11:02 AM
Still trying to cram Choo into the lineup:

Choo, Brantley, & Perez for Bruce, Stubbs, & Joseph

Extend Choo 4 years. Perez closes next year, Chapman to the rotation. Leake or Bailey as a principle for Upton in the offseason.

Brantley
Phillips
Votto
Upton
Choo
Frazier

OesterPoster
07-30-2012, 11:12 AM
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Since back in June, Reds have quietly evaluated Juan Pierre as possible target. Won't cost much, great clubhouse guy, good # against RHP.


Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale

The #Reds coaching staff loves Juan Pierre and believe he would be perfect fit for their playoff run. #Phillies

Puffy
07-30-2012, 11:13 AM
I am OK with Pierre as long as they don't give up anything of value. Spot lefty starter is always nice for bench.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 11:14 AM
Still trying to cram Choo into the lineup:

Choo, Brantley, & Perez for Bruce, Stubbs, & Joseph

Extend Choo 4 years. Perez closes next year, Chapman to the rotation. Leake or Bailey as a principle for Upton in the offseason.

Brantley
Phillips
Votto
Upton
Choo
Frazier

Not interested in a radical shakeup like that at this point- too risky. Plus I see no reason to jettison Bruce and his team friendly LTC.

corkedbat
07-30-2012, 11:16 AM
Still trying to cram Choo into the lineup:

Choo, Brantley, & Perez for Bruce, Stubbs, & Joseph

Extend Choo 4 years. Perez closes next year, Chapman to the rotation. Leake or Bailey as a principle for Upton in the offseason.

Brantley
Phillips
Votto
Upton
Choo
Frazier

One thing to consider there, Choo's agent is Scott Boras.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 11:31 AM
Not interested in a radical shakeup like that at this point- too risky. Plus I see no reason to jettison Bruce and his team friendly LTC.

It would be a heck of an offseason though, right? :beerme:

redsfan30
07-30-2012, 11:32 AM
I would be in favor of a Pierre aquisition. We would not have to mortgage the farm for him and his on base skills would look very good setting the table for Joey Votto.

GoReds
07-30-2012, 11:34 AM
I don't mind a Pierre acquisition, provided Pierre is in a platoon with Stubbs. I still think Stubbs could be a valuable piece for the Reds and could excel in a platoon. Pierre shouldn't cost much and will not radically alter a lineup that needs a couple of good tweaks.

Likewise, I could get on board with either Dejesus or Span, but if Span is coming here, I would then prefer that Stubbs is included in the return.

Mario-Rijo
07-30-2012, 11:35 AM
One thing to consider there, Choo's agent is Scott Boras.

That just turned me off on that idea. :eek:

RedEye
07-30-2012, 11:41 AM
Still trying to cram Choo into the lineup:

Choo, Brantley, & Perez for Bruce, Stubbs, & Joseph

Extend Choo 4 years. Perez closes next year, Chapman to the rotation. Leake or Bailey as a principle for Upton in the offseason.

Brantley
Phillips
Votto
Upton
Choo
Frazier

Goodness gracious. Are you sure you didn't mean to post in the "pipe dream" thread?

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 11:41 AM
I wonder how significant the Reds can upgrade the OBP in the top of the order with just Pierre, especially if Cozart is still hitting 1st or 2nd? I think that may be the link to Choo and Pence, who may be able to push BP back to leadoff. They don't see Ludwick as ideal in the cleanup spot? I don't know. It looks like they've definitely thought about getting 2 bats. I'd look for a few 3 team trades in the next day. I hope the Reds can come out the strongest from this deadline.

RedEye
07-30-2012, 11:42 AM
Still trying to cram Choo into the lineup:

Choo, Brantley, & Perez for Bruce, Stubbs, & Joseph

Extend Choo 4 years. Perez closes next year, Chapman to the rotation. Leake or Bailey as a principle for Upton in the offseason.

Brantley
Phillips
Votto
Upton
Choo
Frazier

Not to mention the Reds probably lose that deal in every way...

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 11:42 AM
Goodness gracious. Are you sure you didn't mean to post in the "pipe dream" thread?

Where is that thread? Please direct me there.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 11:45 AM
I wonder how significant the Reds can upgrade the OBP in the top of the order with just Pierre, especially if Cozart is still hitting 1st or 2nd? I think that may be the link to Choo and Pence, who may be able to push BP back to leadoff. They don't see Ludwick as ideal in the cleanup spot? I don't know. It looks like they've definitely thought about getting 2 bats. I'd look for a few 3 team trades in the next day. I hope the Reds can come out the strongest from this deadline.

Pierre would play almost exclusively against right handed pitching. His OBP against them for this year is .374.

Even if he is the only addition, that's going to help quite a bit I would think.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 11:47 AM
What has Dusty shown you previously that'd make you think he'd make that switch? Short of a monumental collapse, I don't see Bruce being dropped out of the 5 hole.

He already said that BP is his #4 guy and I was thinking, if Ludwick keeps it up and Bruce keeps it down, maybe Ludwick moves up a spot. Dusty finally relented on moving Rolen down, maybe that loosened him up on these decisions.

I think it is a possibility. Probability? Unsure.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2012, 11:48 AM
Those of you who are in favor of Juan Pierre where do you think he's going to play? Ryan Ludwick has been our best hitter lately, are you really going to bench him in favor of Pierre? The Reds need a CFer. Victorino would be a much better fit. We also need some bench help.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
Those tweets just confirmed it for me that JP will be a Red.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 11:49 AM
Not to mention the Reds probably lose that deal in every way...

I look at Ludwick and what he's done in 60% of the time of Bruce and feel like it may not be that special to hit 30 HR in GABP. Bruce is splitty that way. I didn't know Choo was a Boras guy, but if he were able to sign for 3-5 more years at 10-12 per, he'd be an upgrade on Bruce for this team, IMO. If that failed, you'd still have a cost controlled upgrade in CF in Brantley and a cost controlled closer/set up guy in Perez. I don't know, Bruce is a great player, but he's replace-able.

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 11:50 AM
If you can acquire Pierre for pennies on the dollar I'd do it and make him the LH OF bench guy rather than Paul.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 11:50 AM
Those of you who are in favor of Juan Pierre where do you think he's going to play? Ryan Ludwick has been our best hitter lately, are you really going to bench him in favor of Pierre? The Reds need a CFer. Victorino would be a much better fit. We also need some bench help.

I would also like to see Victorino instead. I don't mind Pierre per se, but I have real concerns about his ability to play CF.

cincrazy
07-30-2012, 11:51 AM
If you can acquire Pierre for pennies on the dollar I'd do it and make him the LH OF bench guy rather than Paul.

But in theory, we'd be acquiring him to be our leadoff hitter... where does he play? Playing him in center would be a huge drop-off defensively, and Ludwick has been one of our best hitters. I just have trouble seeing how we could fit Pierre into the lineup without taking away from what we currently have. I'm with OBM on this one, I think Victorino is a better fit.

kaldaniels
07-30-2012, 11:52 AM
But in theory, we'd be acquiring him to be our leadoff hitter... where does he play? Playing him in center would be a huge drop-off defensively, and Ludwick has been one of our best hitters. I just have trouble seeing how we could fit Pierre into the lineup without taking away from what we currently have. I'm with OBM on this one, I think Victorino is a better fit.

Fay had tweeted he would be a bench guy if acquired.

cincrazy
07-30-2012, 11:55 AM
Fay had tweeted he would be a bench guy if acquired.

Interesting. Certainy helps the bench. Can't argue with that. Doesn't do much to fix our leadoff problem on a regular basis, however.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Those of you who are in favor of Juan Pierre where do you think he's going to play? Ryan Ludwick has been our best hitter lately, are you really going to bench him in favor of Pierre? The Reds need a CFer. Victorino would be a much better fit. We also need some bench help.

If the Reds scouts think that he can play there in a platoon, then I believe them. Also, JP has about a .175 OPS advantage over Stubbs vs RHP. Is that enough to offset any potential defensive loss that would take place in those games?

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2012, 11:57 AM
Fay had tweeted he would be a bench guy if acquired.

I wouldn't mind Pierre much if he was just acquired to upgrade the bench. But knowing Dusty Baker, if he gets his hands on Puan Pierre it more than likely will turn into Pierre stealing atbats away from Ludwick and he'll play him in CF too.

I'd like to see a bat with some pop acquired for the bench.

OldXOhio
07-30-2012, 11:59 AM
He already said that BP is his #4 guy and I was thinking, if Ludwick keeps it up and Bruce keeps it down, maybe Ludwick moves up a spot. Dusty finally relented on moving Rolen down, maybe that loosened him up on these decisions.

I think it is a possibility. Probability? Unsure.

I'd be all for it, just don't think it'll happen. Same as I wish he'd move BP up in the order and hit Ludwick clean up. Same as I wish he'd move Cozart down regardless of who's throwing. Same as......

CF
Phillips
Votto
Ludwick
Frazier - flip he and Bruce against RHP
Bruce
Hannigan
Cozart

Kc61
07-30-2012, 12:01 PM
If the Reds scouts think that he can play there in a platoon, then I believe them. Also, JP has about a .175 OPS advantage over Stubbs vs RHP. Is that enough to offset any potential defensive loss that would take place in those games?

Good point.

I think Pierre would start against a lot of righty pitching. He would play some LF. I'm guessing he would play some CF too, but just don't know if that's feasible. Haven't followed whether Pierre can still play there.

Folks should keep in mind that Dusty sits Ludwick at least once every series. For whatever reason, he rests him a lot. And I think I heard yesterday that Ludwick wasn't entirely healthy, although I have no firm info on that.

If the Reds get Pierre, I doubt that he will be sitting on the bench too much.

DeJesus, who still plays a lot of CF and has similar OBP skills, therefore might be a better match, although he probably would cost more and is signed for 2013 at a real salary number.

hebroncougar
07-30-2012, 12:06 PM
I think we're down to DeJesus and Pierre. I'd like to see if they could get Michel Brantley. I think everyone else is shooting for the moon for what they are holding. I don't blame the Reds for not parting with any serious goods.

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Another fake account reporting Reds traded Arroyo and B. Hamilton for Pence. Twitterverse went int full-on panic mode. LOL

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 12:12 PM
I think Daniel Murphy would be a decent target.

.312 /.352 /.440/.792 the last 2 seasons.

That's the type of tough out this team could use in the postseason. He's a platoon LHB that plays LF, 1b and 2b.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 12:14 PM
I think Daniel Murphy would be a decent target.

.312 /.352 /.440/.792 the last 2 seasons.

That's the type of tough out this team could use in the postseason. He's a platoon LHB that plays LF, 1b and 2b.

Defensive issues I believe.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 12:17 PM
Pierre is also a great bunter. Score another for JP.

bucksfan2
07-30-2012, 12:26 PM
I wouldn't mind Pierre much if he was just acquired to upgrade the bench. But knowing Dusty Baker, if he gets his hands on Puan Pierre it more than likely will turn into Pierre stealing atbats away from Ludwick and he'll play him in CF too.

I'd like to see a bat with some pop acquired for the bench.

Far be it for Dusty to put a guy with a current .346 OBP ahead of a guy with a .323. The Reds currently have a huge hole at the top of the order with regards to finding 1b. If Pierre can help fill that I have no problem with Dusty playing him.

Ludwick has been hot of late and is making a push for more playing time. But the season isn't close to being over and the more talent the Reds can add the better. If Ludwick goes into a funk as the season progresses it would be nice to slide Pierre in there.

IMO its important not to get too caught up in the Reds current win streak. Its been fantastic as a fan but we need to realize the last 6 games have been against two of the worst teams in the league. A Stubbs hot streak doesn't hide the fact that he has been poor at getting on base this season. Ludwick catching fire is great for now but what happens if he goes cold in September?

Dan
07-30-2012, 12:27 PM
So...

Pierre
BP
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Mesigan
Cozart

- or -
BP
Stubbs
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Mesigan
Cozart

Thoughts?

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2012, 12:31 PM
Far be it for Dusty to put a guy with a current .346 OBP ahead of a guy with a .323. The Reds currently have a huge hole at the top of the order with regards to finding 1b. If Pierre can help fill that I have no problem with Dusty playing him.


So you think it's a good idea to replace Ryan Ludwick's .850 OPS (over .950 since June) with a .719 OPS? Sorry, but that's a bad idea. Pierre isn't the answer because he can't play CF, which is the position the Reds need to upgrade. If the Reds acquire Pierre strictly as a bench player/spot starter, fine. But as the new LF/CFer? No thanks. It's not an improvement.

reds44
07-30-2012, 12:34 PM
From the other thread.

Not sure that I totally agree with this, but unless he gets it going my guess is that he will be hitting 6th when Votto comes back, or soon there after.
Jay Bruce has an .806 OPS. That puts him higher than everybody on the team other than Votto, Ludwick, and Frazier. If you're a fan of counting stats, he leads the team in both HRs and RBIs.


But yes, he's turning into one of the worst hitters on the team.

bucksfan2
07-30-2012, 12:35 PM
So you think it's a good idea to replace Ryan Ludwick's .850 OPS (over .950 since June) with a .719 OPS? Sorry, but that's a bad idea. Pierre isn't the answer because he can't play CF, which is the position the Reds need to upgrade. If the Reds acquire Pierre strictly as a bench player/spot starter, fine. But as the new LF/CFer? No thanks. It's not an improvement.

In a platoon basis? If Ludwick gets cold? Yes I think its a nice option to have on the 25 man roster.

The 25 man roster is a flawed roster, especially when you consider that both Stubbs and Cozart are having difficulty finding 1b. Right now Ludwick has earned the right to start in LF, but I also worry about what could happen if he morphs into the April and May Ludwick. I think in a short series a guy like Pierre at leadoff could be a benefit. I don't think Pierre is the optimal solution but I think he is a nice option to have.

reds44
07-30-2012, 12:36 PM
The Reds shouldn't be looking for a LFer. The biggest need on this team is a CFer who can get on base. If you acquire Pierre, he's going to end up in CF. If you acquire Choo, either Bruce or Choo will end up in CF.

Who do you think would be a better defensive CFer right now, Bruce or Pierre?

For the record, I'm okay with Pierre if Stubbs is around to platoon with him and come in late in the game for defense against righties.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 12:37 PM
Cliff Lee In Play In Trade Talks
By Tim Dierkes [July 30 at 11:29am CST]

Cliff Lee is in play in trade talks today, tweets ESPN's Buster Olney. Olney considers the Rangers the most logical landing spot, and Joel Sherman of the New York Post names them the frontrunners. Olney says the Yankees are not expected to be in the mix due to lack of budget space. Sherman talked to one executive who expects Lee to be dealt by this month's deadline or in the offseason, to allow the Phillies to save money and add young players. On Friday, Jon Heyman of CBS Sports wrote that the Phillies' lefty would not be traded this month.

Like Pence, this is likely too expensive, but he's also always had Walt's eye.

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 12:43 PM
Jay Bruce has an .806 OPS. That puts him higher than everybody on the team other than Votto, Ludwick, and Frazier. If you're a fan of counting stats, he leads the team in both HRs and RBIs.


But yes, he's turning into one of the worst hitters on the team.

If I said that I apologize. But i dont recall making that statement. Either way, we can't even talk about moving him down in the order behind guys who have been out performing him for months? Is Jay that untouchable?

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 12:45 PM
So you think it's a good idea to replace Ryan Ludwick's .850 OPS (over .950 since June) with a .719 OPS? Sorry, but that's a bad idea. Pierre isn't the answer because he can't play CF, which is the position the Reds need to upgrade. If the Reds acquire Pierre strictly as a bench player/spot starter, fine. But as the new LF/CFer? No thanks. It's not an improvement.

I doubt you'd see JP play over anyone, including Ludwick, with a lefty on the mound. And that's where the difference is btw those 2.

Dan
07-30-2012, 12:47 PM
Like Pence, this is likely too expensive, but he's also always had Walt's eye.

Imagine a top 3 in the playoffs of Lee, Cueto, Latos and a #4 of Bailey? :eek:

jhu1321
07-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Crazy idea:

Choo for Frazier, Heisey & Soto

Span for Stubbs, Corcino & Gregorious

Lineup:
Span
Choo
Votto
Philiips
Bruce
Rolen
Cozart
Hanigan/Mes

Promote Hrod to back up 3rd.
Keep XP as lefthanded bench bat and ultility outfielder.

I would assume in that scenario either Choo or Bruce could play left? Not sure how Ludwick would fit into that equation?

I know, I know...... it won't happen but man would Votto's RBI chances jump through the roof in that scenario.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 01:07 PM
Crazy idea:

Choo for Frazier, Heisey & Soto

Span for Stubbs, Corcino & Gregorious

Lineup:
Span
Choo
Votto
Philiips
Bruce
Rolen
Cozart
Hanigan/Mes

Promote Hrod to back up 3rd.
Keep XP as lefthanded bench bat and ultility outfielder.

I would assume in that scenario either Choo or Bruce could play left? Not sure how Ludwick would fit into that equation?

I know, I know...... it won't happen but man would Votto's RBI chances jump through the roof in that scenario.

Too many lefty bats. LOL.

reds44
07-30-2012, 01:07 PM
If I said that I apologize. But i dont recall making that statement. Either way, we can't even talk about moving him down in the order behind guys who have been out performing him for months? Is Jay that untouchable?
You didn't say it, the post you quoted did. Jay is fine at 5th. I think you could move Ludwick in front of him and Phillips ahead of Votto. I'm not going to sit here and say I don't expect more of Bruce, but to say he's not better than Stubbs and Heisey and is one of the weak spots in the lineup is just inaccurate.

Spitball
07-30-2012, 01:10 PM
So...

Pierre
BP
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Mesigan
Cozart

- or -
BP
Stubbs
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Mesigan
Cozart

Thoughts?

I like this possibility and almost posted similar thoughts. Unfortunately, I fear Baker won't see this logic.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2012, 01:17 PM
From Jon Morosi:


Indians receiving a number of calls on Perez and Choo. They are available. But nothing close at this hour, sources say.

reds44
07-30-2012, 01:22 PM
For the record, Adam Dunn with good defense is a really really good player. Adam Dunn with Adam Dunn defense was a good player.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 01:23 PM
Please no Pierre, unless it's strictly for the bench. I'd just as soon keep Stubbs over Pierre. Span or Choo is what this team needs to make some noise in the postseason.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 01:28 PM
I'll dream again:

Choo, Perez and Brantley for

Stubbs, Hamilton, Corcino, and Rodriguez.

SidneySlicker
07-30-2012, 01:32 PM
From Jon Morosi:

Again they are going to want major compensation. 2 all star caliber players.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 01:38 PM
Been saying it all along: stay the course with the Everyday 8. Get a bench bat and/or a Just-In-Case starter to stash in L'Ville.

dunner13
07-30-2012, 01:41 PM
Looks like Cliff Lee is available. Obviously the biggest problem is that hes making 21M this year and 25M for 3 years after that. If the Phils would take arroyo back in the deal and throw in some money could this somehow be possible? Rolen will be gone after this year which will help some. Lee is a difference maker and would be a huge upgrade to our rotation over arroyo.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 01:46 PM
Looks like Cliff Lee is available. Obviously the biggest problem is that hes making 21M this year and 25M for 3 years after that. If the Phils would take arroyo back in the deal and throw in some money could this somehow be possible? Rolen will be gone after this year which will help some. Lee is a difference maker and would be a huge upgrade to our rotation over arroyo.

IIRC, Arroyo earned his ten and five rights earlier this year. I see no reason why he'd approve a trade.

reds44
07-30-2012, 01:47 PM
And why would the Phillies trade a better pitcher and cash for a worse pitcher who is also expensive.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 01:52 PM
Yeah, Castellini said he'd take on some payroll - I doubt he meant the 12 million dollar difference next year and the $25 million left the 2years after that

Brutus
07-30-2012, 01:54 PM
While Drew Stubbs is incredibly hot right now, even looking back at his July totals, 11 of his 20 hits came against LHP, including three of his four homers. His OPS against lefties this year is .908 while it's only .615 against righties.

This is a situation where the Reds might be better off finding someone to play center against most right-handers. They don't have to replace Stubbs against lefties, but there could be a huge improvement against righties. I'm not crazy about acquiring guys for platoons, but if it's believed Pierre could play center on a part-time basis, he might be the type of guy worthwhile. His speed and ability to get on base would play well off the bench even if he's not meant to completely take over for Stubbs in center.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2012, 01:57 PM
A couple of things from Jon Heyman:


Jon Heyman‏@JonHeymanCBS

#reds obviously dont need much. will consider leadoff, so they too need to talk to phillies. #pierre #victorino



asking price said "outrageous'' by 1 team on victorino. #phillies are making things interesting

I would pass on Victorino as it looks like the Phillies are asking a lot.

REDREAD
07-30-2012, 01:59 PM
So you think it's a good idea to replace Ryan Ludwick's .850 OPS (over .950 since June) with a .719 OPS? Sorry, but that's a bad idea. Pierre isn't the answer because he can't play CF, which is the position the Reds need to upgrade. If the Reds acquire Pierre strictly as a bench player/spot starter, fine. But as the new LF/CFer? No thanks. It's not an improvement.

That's my take too. Pierre would be good to add as a bench player, but I really don't want him taking time away from Stubbs' or Ludwick's playing time significantly.

Stubbs has been OPsing 793 the last 28 days, according to Baseball Reference. Sure, part of that was his hot June. He's going to be hot and cold. However, he's a good guy to have in the lineup over the long haul. He's been a big reason why the team is on a 10 game winning streak (Not the only reason, but a big reason).

It's a great idea to upgrade the bench and get some depth.. But I am not sure that Pierre is an offensive upgrade to Stubbs. A useful player yes.. but not necessarily an upgrade.. When you figure that Stubbs blows him away defensively in CF, the gap widens.

As you said, Ludwick vs Pierre, Ludwick wins hands down.

Superdude
07-30-2012, 02:01 PM
I would pass on Victorino as it looks like the Phillies are asking a lot.


We went from Ondrusek to outrageous? Interesting.

LoganBuck
07-30-2012, 02:02 PM
A couple of things from Jon Heyman:





I would pass on Victorino as it looks like the Phillies are asking a lot.

The idea of "Outrageous" differs. Whereas the Reds turned down Logan Ondrusek for Victorino. We as Reds fans might laugh. If the Phillies asked for Evan Meek the Pirates might scream "Outrageous", especially with the remaining salary. We all know how this works.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 02:03 PM
I dunno.

The price seems high for all these potential leadoff hitters through trade. Doesn't interest me that much. In the end they'll all be traded for much less than those teams were asking from the Reds. It seems opposing teams always ask the Reds for a haul and then turn around and take some rinky dink deal from some other club. I sure wish they'd take our rinky dink deal. But they won't.

Nor am I interested in trading away the farm again.

Plus, they're talking Votto might be back this Friday. He's already doing running and hitting drills again.

I'd wait until the deadline and see if any teams blink on their requests. Otherwise, I'd stand pat. I think fairer deals can be made in the offseason.

dunner13
07-30-2012, 02:06 PM
And why would the Phillies trade a better pitcher and cash for a worse pitcher who is also expensive.

Because we would obviously send a package of prospects back in the deal. I was just throwing out some ideas of how the reds could try to make the $ on Lee work. Obviously its going to take Hamiltion, Corcino and probably another prospect. They would have to take arroyo just to help balance us out with the money, however if has 10-5 rights then nevermind hes not leaving.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 02:09 PM
Johnny Smith just tweeted something imminent with the Reds. Stay tuned.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 02:10 PM
This will go to the wire likely. Tomorrow night. Choo? Pierre? Victorino? Span? Most of the smoke seems to be coming from the Philly area lately.

As for Stubbs hot streak - a LOT of that is against lefties. He is much, much better against lefties. Pierre against righthanders for 6-7 innings then sub in Stubbs for defense the last couple of innings?

Seems the Phils want the moon for Victorino at least to this point. Given the new rules about comp picks a rental simply isn't worth too big a haul unless you're certain the guy is going to put you over the top. Victorino just doesn't seem to be that guy to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Tuesday night prices may drop when teams realize Walt ain't blinking. We'll see. I sure don't want him trading 2 or 3 of the Reds best prospects for a 2 month rental of anyone left on the market. Now he could get pretty expensive for Choo if he didn't disrupt the big club too much, same to a lesser degree for Span or Fowler.

I don't care if no deals are made. This club can win just the way they are. I believe that but more importantly I think they really believe that. Then in the offseason Walt can assess what needs doing and better trades can be arranged then anyway. Either way, deal or no deal, I'll be glad when this maddening waiting is over!

AmarilloRed
07-30-2012, 02:12 PM
Otherwise, I'd stand pat. I think fairer deals can be made in the offseason.

Like either trade last offseason could be considered fair. Walt clearly overpaid last offseason, but felt it was a price he needed to pay-otherwise I agree about standing pat. I do think the 10 game winning streak will help Walt's negotiating position if any trade is made.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 02:16 PM
Like either trade last offseason could be considered fair. Walt clearly overpaid last offseason, but felt it was a price he needed to pay-otherwise I agree about standing pat. I do think the 10 game winning streak will help Walt's negotiating position if any trade is made.

I agree that there was some overpay in those deals but sometimes you win a deal that you lose. Know what I mean? Win-win.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 02:21 PM
Pierre vs. RHP, Stubbs Vs. LHP with Stubbs and a Def replacement. That's a good plan. Redled Jake nailed it.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 02:23 PM
So the asking price for Victorino allegedly goes from Logan Ondrusek to "outrageous" in the span of a week?

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Like either trade last offseason could be considered fair. Walt clearly overpaid last offseason, but felt it was a price he needed to pay-otherwise I agree about standing pat. I do think the 10 game winning streak will help Walt's negotiating position if any trade is made.

I have to disagree with you. Here's how the respective WAR of the pieces that changed hands shakes out as of today:

Reds Received:

Latos 1.3 WAR
Marshall 1.0 WAR
Total 2.3 WAR

San Diego/Chicago Received:
Grandal .9 WAR
Volquez 1.2 WAR
Alonso .5 WAR
Wood -.4 WAR
Boxberger 0.0 WAR
Total 2.2 WAR

Granted, Latos still has a lot to prove before we can call him the top of the rotation starter we hoped we were getting. At the same time, it's not exactly like the parts we gave up have been outstanding. I say, at a minimum, that's fair value on both sides

bucksfan2
07-30-2012, 02:26 PM
Been saying it all along: stay the course with the Everyday 8. Get a bench bat and/or a Just-In-Case starter to stash in L'Ville.

Here is the problem I have with that.

The Dodgers just went out and got HanRam.

The Pirates got Wandy and may not be done. What happens if they go out and get Choo?

The Reds are playing great baseball right now, but its only July. I want a team that is going to win in September and October. With the current roster they don't have a leadoff hitter and they need another left handed hitter off the bench. Its easy to get caught up in the Stubbs and Ludwick hot streak but the reality is the moves aren't about now, they are about getting into the Playoffs and advancing further.

I am fine with standing pat but if they stand pat the Dodgers may have moved ahead of them in teams to beat. If the Pirates or Giants make an offensive move they may have become a better club. The goal is to win in September and October not have the best record on July 30th. This is a very good baseball team right now, a team that has its flaws and a team that could get marketably better.

cincrazy
07-30-2012, 02:26 PM
Johnny Smith just tweeted something imminent with the Reds. Stay tuned.

Who's Johnny Smith?

dsmith421
07-30-2012, 02:29 PM
So the asking price for Victorino allegedly goes from Logan Ondrusek to "outrageous" in the span of a week?

"Outrageous" could just be puffery. We don't actually know what the Phillies are demanding.

Assuming that the request was Ondrusek for Victorino, Walt may well believe it's a fair deal but thinks he can chisel the Phillies down by waiting and simultaneously leaking to friendly reporters that the price is prohibitive to scare off other suitors.

Every bit of this is cloak-and-dagger posturing, there's no real way to know. It's kind of weird when reporters or fans speculate that we should back off Choo or whoever because the price is too high, since no one actually knows the price being quoted.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2012, 02:32 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this, but mark me down for Pierre.

He would cost little, we wouldn't need to commit to him past this year, and he'd help out the out depth/bench.

Pierre's lifetime OPS = .708 (.345 OBP).

vs. RHP = .711 OPS (.340 OBP) in 5295 AB's.
vs. LHP = .699 OPS (.359 OBP) in 1799 AB's.

Pierre actually gets on base better vs. LHP's (just less power).

Stubbs' lifetime OPS = .724 OPS and dropping (.320 OBP and dropping)

vs. RHP = .681 OPS (.309 OBP) in 1200 AB's.
vs. LHP = .849 OPS (.352 OBP) in 406 AB's.

If they platoon, wouldn't Pierre (vs. RHP) get the majority of starts?

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2012, 02:34 PM
The problem is Juan Pierre isn't a CFer.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 02:34 PM
Tweet from Leatherpants:

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
Rangers, Dodgers, Nationals all possible matches for Phillies in a Cliff Lee deal.......Giants, Pirates, Reds should be best fits for Pence

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:35 PM
So the asking price for Victorino allegedly goes from Logan Ondrusek to "outrageous" in the span of a week?
I really doubt the Reds ever had the chance to get Victorino for Ondrusek.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 02:35 PM
Lots of scuttlebutt on Twitter about Reds and Pierre. Wonder what the price will be? As long as Hamilton, Corcino, Cingrani, DiDi or anyone in the top of the past 2 June Drafts aren't involved. I guess I could pay it. If they want a proven MLB'er, I'd pay Heisey, Ondrusek or LeCure?

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 02:37 PM
I really doubt the Reds ever had the chance to get Victorino for Ondrusek.

Same here. I find it very hard to believe they passed on that deal.

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:38 PM
Lots of scuttlebutt on Twitter about Reds and Pierre. Wonder what the price will be? As long as Hamilton, Corcino, Cingrani, DiDi or anyone in the top of the past 2 June Drafts aren't involved. I guess I could pay it. If they want a proven MLB'er, I'd pay Heisey, Ondrusek or LeCure?
Pierre will cost next to nothing. I'm pretty sure the Phillies signed him to a minor league deal in the offseason. He has very little value. I could see it being Heisey or LeCure or a low minor leaguer.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 02:40 PM
I am fine with standing pat but if they stand pat the Dodgers may have moved ahead of them in teams to beat. If the Pirates or Giants make an offensive move they may have become a better club. The goal is to win in September and October not have the best record on July 30th. This is a very good baseball team right now, a team that has its flaws and a team that could get marketably better.

Another perspective.

The Nats are a playoff team. Pitchers Zimmerman, Strasburg (if he's pitching), Clippard, Jackson, are righthanders who pitch a lot for them.

Pirates are a potential playoff team. Grilli, Hanrahan, Lincoln, McDonald, Burnett, Karstens, all righthanders who pitch a lot for them.

Giants are a potential playoff team. Romo, Vogelsong, Cain, Casilla, Hensley, righties pitch a lot for them.

Why shouldn't the Reds have at least one more lefty who hits righties well to match up with these guys and the comparable guys on the Cards, Dodgers, Braves, etc.?

Makese no sense to me to have only Votto, Bruce and maybe Xavier Paul. Get another good experienced left handed bat. (I'd like two actually, but won't be greedy.)

Just get me Juan Pierre or somebody similar. Not asking for too much.

cincrazy
07-30-2012, 02:40 PM
Gammons just said on MLB Network that the Reds have been calling a lot on Jacoby Ellsbury, but it remains to be seen if they can come up with package good enough for the Sox.

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:41 PM
Gammons just said on MLB Network that the Reds have been calling a lot on Jacoby Ellsbury, but it remains to be seen if they can come up with package good enough for the Sox.
This would be EPIC.

AmarilloRed
07-30-2012, 02:41 PM
I have to disagree with you. Here's how the respective WAR of the pieces that changed hands shakes out as of today:

Reds Received:

Latos 1.3 WAR
Marshall 1.0 WAR
Total 2.3 WAR

San Diego/Chicago Received:
Grandal .9 WAR
Volquez 1.2 WAR
Alonso .5 WAR
Wood -.4 WAR
Boxberger 0.0 WAR
Total 2.2 WAR

Granted, Latos still has a lot to prove before we can call him the top of the rotation starter we hoped we were getting. At the same time, it's not exactly like the parts we gave up have been outstanding. I say, at a minimum, that's fair value on both sides

It'll take at least a couple of years before we know the true value of players like Alonso, Boxberger and Grandal, and there were some more prospects involved.

redsfan30
07-30-2012, 02:41 PM
Gammons just said on MLB Network that the Reds have been calling a lot on Jacoby Ellsbury, but it remains to be seen if they can come up with package good enough for the Sox.

Get. This. Done.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 02:42 PM
Get. This. Done.

Stubbs, Corcino, and somebody else?

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:43 PM
Stubbs, Corcino, and somebody else?
You're giving up Hamilton to get Ellsbury, and I'll drive him to Boston myself if I have to.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 02:43 PM
Gammons just said on MLB Network that the Reds have been calling a lot on Jacoby Ellsbury, but it remains to be seen if they can come up with package good enough for the Sox.

I can't take these teases any more ... Ellsbury, Lee, Victorino, Choo, Span. I want I want I want I want I want!!!

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 02:43 PM
Stubbs, Corcino, and somebody else?

Way too little IMHO. This is the guy that should have been the AL MVP last year.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 02:44 PM
Way too little IMHO. This is the guy that should have been the AL MVP last year.

OK. Here's a thought.

Ellsbury for Jay Bruce.

Put Ellsbury in RF. Keep Stubbs/Heisey.

So?

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:44 PM
Yeah the Reds aren't trading Jay Bruce.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 02:44 PM
If I'm Boston I want Hamilton, Corcino and Stephenson.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 02:44 PM
It'll take at least a couple of years before we know the true value of players like Alonso, Boxberger and Grandal, and there were some more prospects involved.

Agreed. I think Latos will improve as well. These two deals have the potential to make everyone happy. Those are the best types of trades.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 02:45 PM
Scott Miller ‏@ScottMCBS
#Cubs talks with #Dodgers for Dempster appear to be gaining momentum http://cbsprt.co/MOKiUQ #MLB #tradedeadline

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 02:45 PM
I can't take these teases any more ... Ellsbury, Lee, Victorino, Choo, Span. I want I want I want I want I want!!!

:laugh: :thumbup:

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:46 PM
If I'm Boston I want Hamilton, Corcino and Stephenson.
I'm not sure if I'd give up THAT much for him, but this is along the lines of what it would take.

You're probably looking at Stubbs, Hamilton, Corcino, and another prospect.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 02:46 PM
Here is the problem I have with that.

The Dodgers just went out and got HanRam.

The Pirates got Wandy and may not be done. What happens if they go out and get Choo?

The Reds are playing great baseball right now, but its only July. I want a team that is going to win in September and October. With the current roster they don't have a leadoff hitter and they need another left handed hitter off the bench. Its easy to get caught up in the Stubbs and Ludwick hot streak but the reality is the moves aren't about now, they are about getting into the Playoffs and advancing further.

I am fine with standing pat but if they stand pat the Dodgers may have moved ahead of them in teams to beat. If the Pirates or Giants make an offensive move they may have become a better club. The goal is to win in September and October not have the best record on July 30th. This is a very good baseball team right now, a team that has its flaws and a team that could get marketably better.

I'm not against making a move -- I'm against making a move that doesn't make sense. Making a move that replaces as an .850 OPS bat (Ludwick) with a .719 OPS bat (Pierre) doesn't make sense. Making a move that replaces a quality defender (Stubbs) with a defender that hasn't played the position in years (Pence, Bruce) and projects to below-average defense doesn't make sense. Trading a current starter off a rotation that is Top-5 in baseball doesn't make sense. Blowing out what little remains of the farm system to acquire a player that gets on base 1 more time per 30 PAs (Victorino) than the current solution doesn't make sense.

Find me a move that makes sense, and I'll throw my support behind it 100%.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 02:46 PM
Pierre makes a lot of sense to me on a couple levels. First he is cheap - both in what would likely asked and salary wise. Second he fits pretty well. He can spell Ludwick or Bruce (with Lud moving to right) and pinch hit, and he can give Ellsbury an occasional night off.

Thats right Walt's getting Ellsbury, too. Dreamer.

Dan
07-30-2012, 02:47 PM
Tweet from Leatherpants:

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
Rangers, Dodgers, Nationals all possible matches for Phillies in a Cliff Lee deal.......Giants, Pirates, Reds should be best fits for Pence

So, Cliff Lee winds up in Baltimore and Pence in Atlanta? Got it.

LoganBuck
07-30-2012, 02:48 PM
You're giving up Hamilton to get Ellsbury, and I'll drive him to Boston myself if I have to.

Yep

757690
07-30-2012, 02:51 PM
You're giving up Hamilton to get Ellsbury, and I'll drive him to Boston myself if I have to.

Ellsbury has major injury issues, is expensive and around for only one year after this. It's the problem Boston has with trading him. He's worth much more to them than to another club.

Hamilton would be a huge overpay.

WildcatFan
07-30-2012, 02:51 PM
If I'm Boston I want Hamilton, Corcino and Stephenson.

Replace Stephenson with Stubbs and I think that gets it done.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 02:51 PM
two of the Top Twitter trending words in the globe right now are Cliff Lee and Hunter Pence. Ruben Amaro's phone is rining of the hoook.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 02:51 PM
Would be great to land Tacoby Bellsbury.

redsfan30
07-30-2012, 02:52 PM
As was mentioned, Ellsbury's injury history could keep his price from going through the roof.

Strikes Out Looking
07-30-2012, 02:53 PM
Tweet from Leatherpants:

JIM BOWDEN ‏@JimBowdenESPNxm
Rangers, Dodgers, Nationals all possible matches for Phillies in a Cliff Lee deal.......Giants, Pirates, Reds should be best fits for Pence

Beware of taking anything he says seriously. I'm pretty sure 75% of Redszoner's would be better GMs as well as better commentators.

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:53 PM
Billy Hamilton's upside is Jacoby Ellsbury with a little more speed and less power.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 02:54 PM
2012-04-14 2012-07-13 60-DL 90 79 Right Shoulder Subluxation Landed on At Second Base

2010-08-14 2010-10-04 60-DL 51 45 Left Trunk Fracture Ribs - Yes
2010-05-25 2010-08-04 15-DL 71 61 Left Trunk Fracture Rib Posterior Aspect - Yes
2010-04-12 2010-05-22 15-DL 40 37 Left Trunk Fracture 4 Non Displaced Fractures Ribs - ----

These may say he's a tad brittle, or just unlucky. Not sure what a shoulder injury would do to his numbers this year. I don't love the Ellsbury idea too much, although he'd probably at least match what Stubbs could give the rest of 2012.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 02:55 PM
Billy Hamilton's upside is Jacoby Ellsbury with a little more speed and less power.

And hopefully fewer days spent in an MRI tube / X-Ray machine.

Superdude
07-30-2012, 02:55 PM
Billy Hamilton's upside is Jacoby Ellsbury with a little more speed and less power.

Let me know when Hamilton OPS's .928

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 02:58 PM
You're probably looking at Stubbs, Hamilton, Corcino, and another prospect.

I'd love to have him but no way I just can't do it - he's a free agent in 2014 and a Boras client. You're giving up all that for 1 year and 2 months of a guy who just came off the disabled list for a shoulder injury and isn't hitting with his old zing yet. Even healthy I'd hesitate - he would certainly mean a stronger run at the title but how much more really losing Stubbs - and how much future do you lose for that season and a third? Yes I am really really tempted but man that's a high price.

reds44
07-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Let me know when Hamilton OPS's .928
That's what I'm saying lol. If he reaches his upside he still won't put up the OPS Ellsbury did last year. Ellsbury has stolen 70 bases in a season in the majors too.

AmarilloRed
07-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Jayson Stark reports that teams that have spoken to the Reds say the Reds seem to be centering on Juan Pierre. He also says Pierre will be the first trade the Phillies make.

Dan
07-30-2012, 02:59 PM
Now that Hamilton has solidified himself at AA, in my mind he is as close to untouchable as they come.

Ellsbury's injury history makes Hamilton's inclusion in any trade impossible. Stubbs, and one of Gregarias, Corcino, Cingrani, Joseph would be my final offer. Or trade for Arroyo straight up and send Hamilton to Philly for Lee.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 02:59 PM
Reds need to watch their money since they'll be signing free agent Josh Hamilton long term in the offseason. :D ;) :beerme:

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 03:00 PM
Let me know when Hamilton OPS's .928

Let me know when Ellsbury learns to stop plowing into people and missing seasons.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 03:00 PM
Jayson Stark reports that teams that have spoken to the Reds say the Reds seem to be centering on Juan Pierre. He also says Pierre will be the first trade the Phillies make.
I'm surprised, and somewhat disconcerted, that is hasn't gotten done yet. Makes me think the Phillies may be trying to shake down the Reds knowing how much Cincinnati wants him.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 03:00 PM
Jayson Stark reports that teams that have spoken to the Reds say the Reds seem to be centering on Juan Pierre. He also says Pierre will be the first trade the Phillies make.

Sigh.

reds44
07-30-2012, 03:01 PM
The Reds have the best record in baseball. It's time to stop holding onto our prospects and go all in.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 03:01 PM
I think Boston would do Stubbs, Frazier, Corcino, Gregorius, and Joseph and count themselves lucky. Extremely lucky, in fact.

All are major league or nearly major league ready, all have upside, and all fix holes.

For Cincinnati, that's an awful lot to pay, but I'd do it:

Ellsbury CF
Cozart SS
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Ludwick LF
Rolen 3B
Mesigan C

Really solid group, that.

You could even add Pierre as a LH bench bat/ CF place-holder.

Dan
07-30-2012, 03:01 PM
That's what I'm saying lol. If he reaches his upside he still won't put up the OPS Ellsbury did last year. Ellsbury has stolen 70 bases in a season in the majors too.

Don't ever make the mistake of looking to a player's best past season to project what he will do in the future. Ellsbury's .928 OPS last year was nearly .200 higher than what he had done to that point. What did he change? Or was he just healthy for the whole year? Or did he just get extremely lucky? Too many unknowns.

LegallyMinded
07-30-2012, 03:02 PM
Let me know when Hamilton OPS's .928

Just because he hasn't yet put up those kinds of OPS numbers in significant minor league playing time doesn't mean he isn't capable of it. Ellsbury, for instance, turned in a .743 career OPS at triple A, but discovered some additional power in 2011 and set the .928 OPS mark you referenced. It isn't inconceivable that as he matures, Hamilton similarly finds some more power and approaches Ellsbury's numbers.

RedlegJake
07-30-2012, 03:02 PM
I think Boston would do Stubbs, Frazier, Corcino, Gregorius, and Joseph.

All are major league or nearly major league ready, all have upside, and all fix holes.

For Ellsbury? All of them? No way I do that deal. No way. Boston would grab it and run though.

WildcatFan
07-30-2012, 03:03 PM
I think Boston would do Stubbs, Frazier, Corcino, Gregorius, and Joseph.

All are major league or nearly major league ready, all have upside, and all fix holes.

That would be too much, in my opinion. Wouldn't that mean you're betting the farm that HRod is going to be ready for third base next season?

Superdude
07-30-2012, 03:03 PM
Let me know when Ellsbury learns to stop plowing into people and missing seasons.

That'd be my biggest concern. This shoulder injury must have been pretty bad to set him out this long. Between Scott Rolen, Sean Casey, and Austin Kearns, we've had a first hand look at how much shoulder injuries can derail a career.

Scrap Irony
07-30-2012, 03:04 PM
That would be too much, in my opinion. Wouldn't that mean you're betting the farm that HRod is going to be ready for third base next season?

Yes, it would.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2012, 03:05 PM
Jayson Stark reports that teams that have spoken to the Reds say the Reds seem to be centering on Juan Pierre. He also says Pierre will be the first trade the Phillies make.

Of all the players rumored for the Reds to be interested in Choo, Span, Ellsbury, Victorino, Pierre personally I have the least interest in Pierre. If they get him hopefully the price is not too high because I don't really see Pierre improving this team much.

WildcatFan
07-30-2012, 03:05 PM
That'd be my biggest concern. This shoulder injury must have been pretty bad to set him out this long. Between Scott Rolen, Sean Casey, and Austin Kearns, we've had a first hand look at how much shoulder injuries can derail a career.

You'd be resigned to the fact that you're going to have a bad arm in center field going forward, but the range is still there.

Dan
07-30-2012, 03:07 PM
You'd be resigned to the fact that you're going to have a bad arm in center field going forward, but the range is still there.

I'd rather have Choo and a lack of range, than Ellsbury and a lack of arm. Choo's been much more consistent over his career.

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 03:07 PM
MLB Network ‏@MLBNetwork

“They’ve called a lot on @JacobyEllsbury…I just don’t see that working out.” - @pgammo on @Reds' search for a leadoff man. #tradedeadline

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 03:09 PM
The Reds have the best record in baseball. It's time to stop holding onto our prospects and go all in.

The well is pretty close to running dry right now. Now more than ever (with the Votto contract and Phillips contract hanging off the franchise's neck), the Reds need a quality pipeline of players to fill out the roster. They shed a lot of talent this offseason to bring back 1 guy (who will start to get expensive soon). The team can't afford to keep throwing 3-4 guys who project to be quality major leaguers in order to bring back 1 guy who will only be with the team for a year or two.

I'm all for "going for it," but I sat through too much garbage baseball to want another decade of a team that can't bring up enough talent to compete.

Superdude
07-30-2012, 03:12 PM
The well is pretty close to running dry right now. Now more than ever (with the Votto contract and Phillips contract hanging off the franchise's neck), the Reds need a quality pipeline of players to fill out the roster. They shed a lot of talent this offseason to bring back 1 guy (who will start to get expensive soon). The team can't afford to keep throwing 3-4 guys who project to be quality major leaguers in order to bring back 1 guy who will only be with the team for a year or two.

I'm all for "going for it," but I sat through too much garbage baseball to want another decade of a team that can't bring up enough talent to compete.

I'm with this. The long term contracts are really going to cut into payroll flexibility in the future IMO. Had we not signed Phillips, I'd maybe be cool with throwing some chips in for Ellsbury, but cheap production around Votto is pretty imperative to us consistently fielding a quality team.

Patrick Bateman
07-30-2012, 03:13 PM
The Reds have the best record in baseball. It's time to stop holding onto our prospects and go all in.

I'd rather have sustainability... don't want to go back to the dark ages. We are already a playoff team (likley), paying a preimum to modestly increase our chances for 1-2 years when we are likely going to be in the dance anyways just doesnt do it for me.

Reds Fanatic
07-30-2012, 03:14 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted but this is from Bob Nightengale the Baseball writer for USA Today:


The #Reds coaching staff loves Juan Pierre and believe he would be perfect fit for their playoff run. #Phillies

Kc61
07-30-2012, 03:14 PM
I'm with this. The long term contracts are really going to cut into payroll flexibility in the future IMO. Had we not signed Phillips, I'd maybe be cool with throwing some chips in for Ellsbury, but cheap production around Votto is pretty imperative to us consistently fielding a quality team.

Still, from a financial viewpoint, don't you have to protect your $225 million investment in Votto by having folks on base for him? And, for that matter, a reasonable clean up hitter batting after him?

I think the answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes; can't spend big dollars on everyone.

But part of Joey's value is the numbers he can put up, and he can't put up optimal numbers if the tablesetters don't set the table.

Superdude
07-30-2012, 03:15 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted but this is from Bob Nightengale the Baseball writer for USA Today:

:lol: Dusty is lickin' his chops.

Superdude
07-30-2012, 03:17 PM
Still, from a financial viewpoint, don't you have to protect your $225 million investment in Votto by having folks on base for him? And, for that matter, a reasonable clean up hitter batting after him?

I think the answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes; can't spend big dollars on everyone.

But part of Joey's value is the numbers he can put up, and he can't put up optimal numbers if the tablesetters don't set the table.

I agree, but I don't think cashing in prospects is a smart thing to do right now regardless of what's in front of Votto. At some point, we won't be able to pay a premium for every position on the field.

GoReds
07-30-2012, 03:22 PM
This from Hardballtalk:


"So, yeah, there seems to be a legitimate chance this is going to happen. But the Reds donít need a leadoff hitter, and they certainly donít need Juan Pierre.

For starters, they have a perfectly good leadoff hitter, if only theyíd use him there. Drew Stubbs strikes out a whole lot and has a disappointing OBP this year, but when he bats at the top of the order, he scores runs, which is the name of the game."

Ummm...what?

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 03:25 PM
The Reds have the best record in baseball. It's time to stop holding onto our prospects and go all in.

Thats kind of contradictory.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 03:29 PM
He's right -- the Reds do have a perfectly good leadoff hitter on the roster. His name is Brandon Phillips.

Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Rolen / Frazier
Stubbs
Hanigan

OldXOhio
07-30-2012, 03:30 PM
For starters, they have a perfectly good leadoff hitter, if only they’d use him there. Drew Stubbs strikes out a whole lot and has a disappointing OBP this year, but when he bats at the top of the order, he scores runs, which is the name of the game.

The author goes on to say "I just started following this game you call baseball last week"

GoReds
07-30-2012, 03:30 PM
From Tim Dierkes, MLBTradeRumors:


The Phillies' asking price on Victorino is outrageous, an executive of one team tells Jon Heyman of CBS Sports.

OldXOhio
07-30-2012, 03:32 PM
Amaro seems to think he holds all the cards, good for him.

I wonder which cards he will play as he rides SV right into free agency?

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 03:33 PM
The Phillies' asking price on Victorino is outrageous, an executive of one team tells Jon Heyman of CBS Sports.

Reds nixed a deal that would send Corcino, Cingrani, Stephenson, Hamilton, and Travieso to the Phils for Victorino.

;)

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 03:34 PM
The author goes on to say "I just started following this game you call baseball last week"

Okay. That one made me chuckle. :laugh:

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 03:35 PM
From Tim Dierkes, MLBTradeRumors:

Apparently his iPhone auto-corrects "Ondrusek" to "Outrageous."

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2012, 03:35 PM
I'd rather have sustainability... don't want to go back to the dark ages. We are already a playoff team (likley), paying a preimum to modestly increase our chances for 1-2 years when we are likely going to be in the dance anyways just doesnt do it for me.

This is where I'm at.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 03:38 PM
This is where I'm at.

...and nearly all these guys the Reds are considering trading for are rentals. They're gonna need the farm system eventually to replace whoever they trade for.

And the big contracts are going to have to be supplemented with a continuation of the farm system filling other positions around those big contract guys.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 03:41 PM
Brandon‏@BSmitty25039

Peter Gammons just said on MLB Network that the #Reds have inquired on Jacoby Ellsbury.

Take that for what its worth, but it just popped up and he said Gammons said it on mlb network.

reds44
07-30-2012, 03:50 PM
...and nearly all these guys the Reds are considering trading for are rentals. They're gonna need the farm system eventually to replace whoever they trade for.

And the big contracts are going to have to be supplemented with a continuation of the farm system filling other positions around those big contract guys.
Choo and Ellsbury are both under control for next year.

cinreds21
07-30-2012, 03:51 PM
To get Ells I would guess Cingrani, Gregorius and maybe even Corcino would have to go to Boston.

GoReds
07-30-2012, 03:53 PM
I don't expect it to happen, but Elsbury sounds like a Walt Jockety(TM) Transaction.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 04:07 PM
Haven't people posted that Jocketty's history is NOT to build through the farm, but to trade off the farm for veterans?

I'm not an expert in Walt 101, but he certainly did that last winter.

If so, that might point to a bigger deal including some bigger name prospects. After all, the Reds are real contenders right now, wouldn't this be the time to go for it?

Now, I'm not suggesting a full scale sell-off. I doubt they will trade Hamilton, I think he potentially has unique value as an attraction for the team.

But maybe Walt would trade Corcino and other top prospects around now. Maybe attempts to get guys like Ellsbury are for real.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 04:11 PM
I don't expect it to happen, but Elsbury sounds like a Walt Jockety(TM) Transaction.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/020729rolen.html

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/040806walker.html


Agreed.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 04:11 PM
I talked about Ellsbury as a candidate all the way back here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2660819&postcount=780).

I'd be happy to give them Stubbs and a Pensacola pitcher (and another B/C prospect) if Walt could prove me prophetic.

hebroncougar
07-30-2012, 04:13 PM
If they do go for Ellsbury, I hope they don't buy into last year was near the norm for him. I could certainly go for the 2009 version, but let's not empty the farm system for him either.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 04:14 PM
To get Ells I would guess Cingrani, Gregorius and maybe even Corcino would have to go to Boston.

Sub a lesser name for Corcino and I'd be OK with that (ie Cingrani, Gregorius, a B/C prospect)

wheels
07-30-2012, 04:14 PM
Ellsbury fails the cost/benefit sniff test, but....boy would he look nice at the top of that lineup for the stretch run.

I'd hate that deal in a year, though. Especially if it included Hamilton, and Corcino/Cingrani plus. Ugh.

Just not worth it.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 04:15 PM
Johnny Smith just tweeted something imminent with the Reds. Stay tuned.

This is an honest question: when has Johnny Smith ever gotten anything right? This is like the third or fourth year in a row his name has come up around the trade deadline, and I think almost every year he's said something is imminent. Yet, the last two years, nothing happened.

I don't think this guy has a track record... or at least not a good one.

wheels
07-30-2012, 04:16 PM
This is an honest question: when has Johnny Smith ever gotten anything right? This is like the third or fourth year in a row his name has come up around the trade deadline, and I think almost every year he's said something is imminent. Yet, the last two years, nothing happened.

I don't think this guy has a track record... or at least not a good one.

The guy is a hack.

Chip R
07-30-2012, 04:17 PM
Thats kind of contradictory.

60% of the time it works every time.

Redsfan320
07-30-2012, 04:17 PM
Frazier not in lineup tonight. Could just be an off-day, but this close to the deadline, I wouldn't overlook it.

320

AtomicDumpling
07-30-2012, 04:18 PM
56 members and 106 guests currenly viewing this thread. I wonder what the record is?

Looks like everyone is sitting here refreshing the screen hoping for a deal to happen.

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 04:19 PM
Yeah I wouldn't even bother bringing up anything the Johnny Smith guy says.

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-reds&tid=70929

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93280

this guy doesn't know jack

smith288
07-30-2012, 04:20 PM
<--- What about Erick Smith??

Trade coming within the next fortnight...or longer.

pedro
07-30-2012, 04:22 PM
Frazier not in lineup tonight. Could just be an off-day, but this close to the deadline, I wouldn't overlook it.

320

I'd be stunned if they traded Frazier.

Kc61
07-30-2012, 04:22 PM
Frazier not in lineup tonight. Could just be an off-day, but this close to the deadline, I wouldn't overlook it.

320

I think Frazier being out of the lineup is a reaction to Volquez. Cairo the veteran deemed better able to handle V's nasty stuff and control issues.

Not saying I agree, but knowing Dusty, that's the reason, not any trade.

LoganBuck
07-30-2012, 04:22 PM
Jon Heyman just on MLBnetwork said "I think Reds get a leadoff hitter, probably Pierre or maybe Victorino." No mention of Elsbury. If there was anything to the Elsbury rumor the other national guys would be all over it. Too much interest in Red Sox not to.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 04:23 PM
<--- What about Erick Smith??

Trade coming within the next fortnight...or longer.

That's about as valuable as Johnny Smith's info, and since you used the word fortnight, you get bonus points!

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 04:23 PM
John Doe just tweeted that the Reds are considering obtaining a leadoff hitter.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 04:24 PM
I'd be stunned if they traded Frazier.

Agreed -- especially with Rolen's injury history and zero quality in-house options for 3B next year.

smith288
07-30-2012, 04:24 PM
Curious how many people googled it. ha

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 04:25 PM
Frazier not in lineup tonight. Could just be an off-day, but this close to the deadline, I wouldn't overlook it.

320

Maybe they're showcasing Cairo :D:lol:

OesterPoster
07-30-2012, 04:26 PM
For the "don't let the winning streak fool you" crowd...


DKnobler ‏@DKnobler

Why Reds still need leadoff hitter: Even during 10-game winning streak, their leadoff hitters have .213 on-base pct.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 04:28 PM
That being the case, one can really see why the Reds FO might be thinking an elite lead off guy could cement a championship roster.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm hearing Heisey, Ondrusek, Gregorius for (Ha)Choo. Gadzuntite.

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Was that post in jest or did you really hear that? Im not opposed to that deal...

edabbs44
07-30-2012, 04:31 PM
That being the case, one can really see why the Reds FO might be thinking an elite lead off guy could cement a championship roster.

Or that maybe that thought process could be overrated.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-30-2012, 04:34 PM
Was that post in jest or did you really hear that? Im not opposed to that deal...

I'm also reading it both ways.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 04:35 PM
Or that maybe that thought process could be overrated.

Both approaches have their own comfort. They get paid the big bucks to decide what's wisest. I'm certainly intrigued by this entire set of circumstances.

Puffy
07-30-2012, 04:37 PM
"Outrageous" could just be puffery.

What did I do to you??

dsmith421
07-30-2012, 04:41 PM
What did I do to you??

It, uh, looks good on you, though.

medford
07-30-2012, 04:53 PM
I'm hearing Heisey, Ondrusek, Gregorius for (Ha)Choo. Gadzuntite.

Would love that, if true.

buckeyenut
07-30-2012, 04:54 PM
I think Boston would do Stubbs, Frazier, Corcino, Gregorius, and Joseph and count themselves lucky. Extremely lucky, in fact.

All are major league or nearly major league ready, all have upside, and all fix holes.

For Cincinnati, that's an awful lot to pay, but I'd do it:

Ellsbury CF
Cozart SS
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Ludwick LF
Rolen 3B
Mesigan C

Really solid group, that.

You could even add Pierre as a LH bench bat/ CF place-holder.

I agree, a lot to pay but I'd do it.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 05:07 PM
Mystery team in on Cliff Lee now.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 05:10 PM
It should be noted that Jayson Stark said a bit ago on Twitter the Rangers' talks with Phillies are 'all but over' in trying to work out a trade for Lee.

wolfboy
07-30-2012, 05:11 PM
Mystery team in on Cliff Lee now.

You know, it couldn't hurt to post a link to these "tidbits" you're sharing. You've already left a few posters scratching their head as to the Choo "rumor" you posted earlier.

mdccclxix
07-30-2012, 05:15 PM
GordonEdes Gordon Edes
Reds did ask about Ellssbury, as has been reported elsewhere, but Sox not looking to move him now. This winter, tho, could be interesting

corkedbat
07-30-2012, 05:23 PM
I wish Walt could get something done on Ellsbury (w/o including Hamilton). He would be under control the rest of this season and next. That would be the perfect bridge as Billy will probably be ready to take over in Spring 2014.

mattfeet
07-30-2012, 05:25 PM
You know, it couldn't hurt to post a link to these "tidbits" you're sharing. You've already left a few posters scratching their head as to the Choo "rumor" you posted earlier.

Agreed.

Boss-Hog
07-30-2012, 05:26 PM
You know, it couldn't hurt to post a link to these "tidbits" you're sharing. You've already left a few posters scratching their head as to the Choo "rumor" you posted earlier.
Agreed...don't post cliff hangers that make us wonder if they're legit or not. We're above "April Fool's Day" type threads and posts.

corkedbat
07-30-2012, 05:27 PM
Would love it if Walt could talk the Fish outta Bonafacio. I'd much rather have him than Pierre.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 05:28 PM
I wish Walt could get something done on Ellsbury (w/o including Hamilton). He would be under control the rest of this season and next. That would be the perfect bridge as Billy will probably be ready to take over in Spring 2014.

Agreed, and we could also make him a qualifying offer in order to get the additional draft pick if/when he leaves after 2013.

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 05:47 PM
I'm hearing Heisey, Ondrusek, Gregorius for (Ha)Choo. Gadzuntite.

So the Indians are going to trade perhaps their best player for a 4th OFer, an interchangeable bullpen arm and a AAA SS when they have Cabrera and Kipnis to man SS & 2B, both of whom are light years better than Gregorius could ever hope to be in his wildest dreams? Walt should have to turn in his GM card if he ever even thought about proposing that deal.

The Indians are a competitive team right now, they aren't going to sell of Choo for some prospects, they'll want major league ready talent that can help them next year. Nothing the Reds have meets their needs, unless you want to talk SP and that isn't happening.

Span is the best target because the Twins are going to be bad for a while and the best the Reds have to offer in the way of prospects are still years away. Cingrani/Corcino should be your headliner, along with Gregorious and some other fill.

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 05:53 PM
I wish Walt could get something done on Ellsbury (w/o including Hamilton). He would be under control the rest of this season and next. That would be the perfect bridge as Billy will probably be ready to take over in Spring 2014.

I like the idea of Ellsbury as well, but I think he'd some at too steep of a price. If he's discounted because of his injury history then I'd be all for it but I doubt the Sox would sell him off when his value is at its lowest.

If Walt called Boston I'd like to think that he shrewdly turned the discussion to Ryan Sweeney after he decided the price on Ellsbury was too high. Sweeney would be a nice consolation prize if they can't make something bigger happen (Span, Ellsbury) and I'd much prefer him to Pierre.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 05:53 PM
So the Indians are going to trade perhaps their best player for a 4th OFer, an interchangeable bullpen arm and a AAA SS when they have Cabrera and Kipnis to man SS & 2B, both of whom are light years better than Gregorius could ever hope to be in his wildest dreams? Walt should have to turn in his GM card if he ever even thought about proposing that deal.

The Indians are a competitive team right now, they aren't going to sell of Choo for some prospects, they'll want major league ready talent that can help them next year. Nothing the Reds have meets their needs, unless you want to talk SP and that isn't happening.

Span is the best target because the Twins are going to be bad for a while and the best the Reds have to offer in the way of prospects are still years away. Cingrani/Corcino should be your headliner, along with Gregorious and some other fill.

I wouldn't trade Cingrani or Corcino for Span. Lotzkar maybe.

But I agree with you about the Indians- unfortunately they don't seem to be a fit unless they're willing to take Cingrani or Corcino as a headliner for Choo. They have 2B, SS, and 3B (likely) locked up for a while.

Edd Roush
07-30-2012, 05:58 PM
I wouldn't trade Cingrani or Corcino for Span. Lotzkar maybe.

But I agree with you about the Indians- unfortunately they don't seem to be a fit unless they're willing to take Cingrani or Corcino as a headliner for Choo. They have 2B, SS, and 3B (likely) locked up for a while.

I think you are severely overvaluing our pitching prospects if you think Cingrani or Corcino is too much for an above average centerfielder/lead-off hitter for the next 3.5 years.

I would even deal Hamilton for Span. Span cements us as a top-2 NL team for the next few years. Hamilton is likely to be good, but it is going to be a couple of years before he contributes in Cincinnati.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 06:01 PM
I think you are severely overvaluing our pitching prospects if you think Cingrani or Corcino is too much for an above average centerfielder/lead-off hitter for the next 3.5 years.

I would even deal Hamilton for Span. Span cements us as a top-2 NL team for the next few years. Hamilton is likely to be good, but it is going to be a couple of years before he contributes in Cincinnati.

Sorry, but I don't see Span as a huge upgrade over Stubbs (a slight upgrade maybe- mainly because he hits LH) and I don't think that upgrade is worth that level of pitching prospect. Span's OPS over the last three years is lower than Stubbs, and he will likely be more expensive.

I also don't like the fact that he is under team control for 3.5 years, as we would have to pay for that in talent when in fact (because of Hamilton) it is not something that we will likely need.

I would happily include Cingrani or Corcino in deals for players like Upton, Fowler, Choo, and Ellsbury, as I see those guys as very significant upgrades. Span not so much, I'd rather pay less (in talent) for DeJesus.

Benihana
07-30-2012, 06:09 PM
The Reds still want a leadoff hitter and Victorino has been their top target, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports. The Reds don't like the Phillies' asking price for Victorino, and their interest in Pierre seems to have been exaggerated, Knobler writes.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-knobler/19690320/reds-still-want-leadoff-man,-prefer-victorino

RedEye
07-30-2012, 06:13 PM
Latest from Knobler (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-knobler/19690320/reds-still-want-leadoff-man,-prefer-victorino):


The Reds continue to search for a leadoff hitter as the hours tick down to Tuesday's 4 p.m. (ET) non-waiver trade deadline, sources say. Shane Victorino of the Phillies has been their top target, but the price has thus far been out of the range that the Reds are willing to pay.

The Phillies are also shopping Juan Pierre, but the Reds' interest in him appears to have been exaggerated.

This is music to my ears, frankly. I want no part of Juan Pierre.

EDIT: Oops! - Benihana scooped me! Sorry, folks. :-)

Cedric
07-30-2012, 06:15 PM
The Reds still want a leadoff hitter and Victorino has been their top target, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports. The Reds don't like the Phillies' asking price for Victorino, and their interest in Pierre seems to have been exaggerated, Knobler writes.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-knobler/19690320/reds-still-want-leadoff-man,-prefer-victorino

Sounds like classic Walt.

I like it.

Edd Roush
07-30-2012, 06:17 PM
Sorry, but I don't see Span as a huge upgrade over Stubbs (a slight upgrade maybe- mainly because he hits LH) and I don't think that upgrade is worth that level of pitching prospect. Span's OPS over the last three years is lower than Stubbs, and he will likely be more expensive.

I also don't like the fact that he is under team control for 3.5 years, as we would have to pay for that in talent when in fact (because of Hamilton) it is not something that we will likely need.

I would happily include Cingrani or Corcino in deals for players like Upton, Fowler, Choo, and Ellsbury, as I see those guys as very significant upgrades. Span not so much, I'd rather pay less (in talent) for DeJesus.


How is 54 points of 2012 OBP and 40 points of career OBP jut a slight upgrade? Also, Denard Span is the better defender of the two according to most defensive metrics.

Why don't you like that he is under control on a team friendly deal? He will have positive trade value throughout the duration of his deal so even if Hamilton doesn't need to be dealt and he proves to be better than Span down the line (doubtful), we can deal Span for a need at that time.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 06:20 PM
Span isn't any better than what we have when you factor in the cost to get him.

Pierre and Victorino are rentals. Why pay through the nose for 2 months of either?

Choo is nearly a rental. You get 1.3 seasons out of him, and then Boras certainly takes him to free agency.

I say stand pat unless someone wants to take none of our key prospects.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 06:22 PM
You know, it couldn't hurt to post a link to these "tidbits" you're sharing. You've already left a few posters scratching their head as to the Choo "rumor" you posted earlier.

Heard it on Serius radio while driving around. Sorry.

Geez. Not everyone is searching the internet for rumors.

Brutus
07-30-2012, 06:24 PM
Heard it on Serius radio while driving around. Sorry.

Geez. Not everyone is searching the internet for rumors.

Not everyone has to be. If you post a rumor, you should at least attribute it to a source so people can differentiate whether it's credible.

It takes only 2 extra seconds to say "I heard on Sirius Radio..."

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 06:25 PM
I think you are severely overvaluing our pitching prospects if you think Cingrani or Corcino is too much for an above average centerfielder/lead-off hitter for the next 3.5 years.

I would even deal Hamilton for Span. Span cements us as a top-2 NL team for the next few years. Hamilton is likely to be good, but it is going to be a couple of years before he contributes in Cincinnati.

I'm down with most of what you're saying as I think Span is a legit upgrade on Stubbs both offensively and defensively, but I'd have to give some real thought to dealing Hamilton for him. I'm a big proponent of cashing him in now as I think his value is peaking, but I'd want to do it for a true stud, whether it's a hitter or a pitcher. As much as I like Span, I don't think he's that kind of top-tier guy. Now I'm not saying that Hamilton gets you a superstar by himself, but he could definitely be the centerpiece of a deal for someone like Justin Upton (just a name off the top of my head). The offseason is probably the best time to deal him as he's going pretty strong in AA and a half season of production there could really cement his trade value for a lot of teams.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:27 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

Cedric
07-30-2012, 06:29 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

Remember when "The Lizard" and Reitsma were all the rage? Fans always overvalue their own.

Though I really like Lotzkar.

dougdirt
07-30-2012, 06:32 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

I haven't read the entire thread.... I would hesitate to move Corcino, but would in the right deal (no rentals). I wouldn't move Stephenson. Anyone else? Yeah, let's talk.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:34 PM
I haven't read the entire thread.... I would hesitate to move Corcino, but would in the right deal (no rentals). I wouldn't move Stephenson. Anyone else? Yeah, let's talk.
I was talking more about Cingrani and Corcino than the last two first rounders. I don't see Stephenson being dealt.

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 06:36 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

Wait, you mean to tell me that teams aren't beating down Walt's door to get first crack at their favorite member of the Pensacola rotation? How is that possible? It's like no one values AA pitchers with a season or less of success under their belts. What a crazy, crazy world we live in.

In all seriousness, I was shaking my head reading through this thread. I think old Leatherpants ghostwrites some of these posts.

Vottomatic
07-30-2012, 06:38 PM
Remember when "The Lizard" and Reitsma were all the rage? Fans always overvalue their own.

Though I really like Lotzkar.

It amazes how we all differ on our own prospects.

The only 4 minor league pitchers that are untouchable to me are Corcino, Cingrani, Stephenson and Travieso. Everyone else is available.

Now, I would consider those untouchable in a blockbuster type of deal. But not for a Span, Fowler, Choo, Victorino, or Pierre type trade.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

They're being slightly overvalued because the team has nothing in the chute besides them. That's a recipe for disaster if one of the front-line guys goes down.

I know you want to push all in, but the team simply has to plan for next year and the year after too. That requires having a supply of minor league talent that can augment the high-dollar players (Bruce, Phillips, Votto, etc.) and either fill out roster spots or cover in the case of injury.

You cannot keep selling 3-4 players who project as a future major leaguers to get 1 guy back. It's a formula that's unsustainable for a small market team and will lead to an outright collapse if the pipeline dries up and the money is too tight (due to the aforementioned high-dollar contracts) to go out and buy replacements.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
It amazes how we all differ on our own prospects.

The only 4 minor league pitchers that are untouchable to me are Corcino, Cingrani, Stephenson and Travieso. Everyone else is available.

Now, I would consider those untouchable in a blockbuster type of deal. But not for a Span, Fowler, Choo, Victorino, or Pierre type trade.
Those are your four untouchables? UNTOUCHABLES? Do you expect the Reds to give up garbage and get something in return? You just named like the 4 legit starting pitching prospects (with the exception of maybe Lotzkar) the Reds have.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:41 PM
They're being slightly overvalued because the team has nothing in the chute besides them. That's a recipe for disaster if one of the front-line guys goes down.

I know you want to push all in, but the team simply has to plan for next year and the year after too. That requires having a supply of minor league talent that can augment the high-dollar players (Bruce, Phillips, Votto, etc.) and either fill out roster spots or cover in the case of injury.

You cannot keep selling 3-4 players who project as a future major leaguers to get 1 guy back. It's a formula that's unsustainable for a small market team and will lead to an outright collapse if the pipeline dries up and the money is too tight (due to the aforementioned high-dollar contracts) to go out and buy replacements.
I'm not saying the Reds should be blowing holes through their entire farm system for anybody, but you have to be willing to part with somebody if you want to add to the team.

dougdirt
07-30-2012, 06:41 PM
I was talking more about Cingrani and Corcino than the last two first rounders. I don't see Stephenson being dealt.

Technically Stephenson couldn't even be traded yet, though he could be a PTBNL. I am with you though, I don't see the team even thinking about dealing him. Corcino, before Cueto happened, I think would be a little more likely to be moved. But with what Cueto has done, and Corcino being a very similar clone of him, I am just not sure that happens.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2012, 06:44 PM
I'm not saying the Reds should be blowing holes through their entire farm system for anybody, but you have to be willing to part with somebody if you want to add to the team.

And that's my point -- after shipping off the guys they had to get Latos and Marshall and promoting guys like Frazier and Mesoraco to the big boy squad, there simply isn't a lot left to part with that doesn't result in a huge hole being blown in the side of the farm system.

The Reds are skating on dangerously thin ice right now. The system is devoid of ML-ready impact bats and ML-ready impact arms. That's red-line danger zone for a small market team already committed to heavy contracts around the diamond.

ETA: Woo. Post 11,111.

powersackers
07-30-2012, 06:46 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

Not really when two pitching prospects of less perceived value than Corcino and Cingrani and a IF prospect net Zach Grienke.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:48 PM
Not really when two pitching prospects of less perceived value than Corcino and Cingrani and a IF prospect net Zach Grienke.
I'd love for you to show me the value of Corcino and Cingrani outside of this board.

Sabo Fan
07-30-2012, 06:48 PM
And that's my point -- after shipping off the guys they had to get Latos and Marshall and promoting guys like Frazier and Mesoraco to the big boy squad, there simply isn't a lot left to part with that doesn't result in a huge hole being blown in the side of the farm system.

The Reds are skating on dangerously thin ice right now. The system is devoid of ML-ready impact bats and ML-ready impact arms. That's red-line danger zone for a small market team already committed to heavy contracts around the diamond.

But outside of a few guys, this is a pretty young team, both offensively and pitching-wise. I understand your point and don't necessarily disagree, but when you think about it the Reds have answers at most spots (bench not withstanding) with young, controlled players. Now after 2015 things could get dicey, but I'm willing to but a little faith in the player development system and that they can continue to draft well and at the same time open the pocketbook and spend some money to either keep guys here (Cueto, Latos, etc.) or find replacements.

wheels
07-30-2012, 06:51 PM
People are vastly overrating the Reds pitching prospects in this thread.

In a way I agree, but when thought about in the context what they already gave up in the off season, maybe not.

I'd be okay with dealing one of Corcino/Cingrani/Lotzkar.....Just not two of them, and I echo Sabofan's sentiments in regards to Hamilton (not a pitcher, I know).

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:52 PM
In a way I agree, but when thought about in the context what they already gave up in the off season, maybe not.

I'd be okay with dealing one of Corcino/Cingrani/Lotzkar.....Just not two of them, and I echo Sabofan's sentiments in regards to Hamilton (not a pitcher, I know).
Just because the Reds traded a lot for Latos doesn't make anybody a better prospect.

reds44
07-30-2012, 06:54 PM
Scott Miller ‏@ScottMCBS
The #Dbacks designate Lyle Overbay for assignment, per @nickpiecoro & @SteveGilbertMLB

Overbay is left handed and has an .815 OPS this year. Walt should be all over that.

Puffy
07-30-2012, 06:58 PM
But outside of a few guys, this is a pretty young team, both offensively and defensively. I understand your point and don't necessarily disagree, but when you think about it the Reds have answers at most spots (bench not withstanding) with young, controlled players. Now after 2015 things could get dicey, but I'm willing to but a little faith in the player development system and that they can continue to draft well and at the same time open the pocketbook and spend some money to either keep guys here (Cueto, Latos, etc.) or find replacements.

Thank goodness you posted this first. I was going to post same exact thing but much, much less articulately. So thanks for saving me from me!

wheels
07-30-2012, 06:59 PM
Just because the Reds traded a lot for Latos doesn't make anybody a better prospect.

You're definitely spot on. Here's my rub: those guys are worth more to the Reds in their situation than they might be to another team.

wheels
07-30-2012, 06:59 PM
Scott Miller ‏@ScottMCBS
The #Dbacks designate Lyle Overbay for assignment, per @nickpiecoro & @SteveGilbertMLB

Overbay is left handed and has an .815 OPS this year. Walt should be all over that.

The quintessential Walt type move.

reds44
07-30-2012, 07:00 PM
You're definitely spot on. Here's my rub: those guys are worth more to the Reds in their situation than they might be to another team.
I don't disagree with you there, but are you really going to hang onto somebody if his value is inflated by the lack of the Reds farm system when you could turn it into a good major leaguer such as Span?

Tom Servo
07-30-2012, 07:01 PM
Overbay would help for about a week I suppose, but then he's useless once Joey returns. I've always liked the guy's game, but I don't think it's much of a fit.

reds44
07-30-2012, 07:01 PM
Overbay would help for about a week I suppose, but then he's useless once Joey returns. I've always liked the guy's game, but I don't think it's much of a fit.
A left hander who can pinch hit is useless?

Brutus
07-30-2012, 07:02 PM
A left hander who can pinch hit is useless?

He's not useless, but another 1B type is redundant with Frazier and Cairo already on the roster.

If you're proposing that Cairo be assigned, I suppose then there would be room for him.

wheels
07-30-2012, 07:03 PM
I don't disagree with you there, but are you really going to hang onto somebody if his value is inflated by the lack of the Reds farm system when you could turn it into a good major leaguer such as Span?

I really don't know. I see good points on both sides of that argument. I would be thrilled with Span. Elated.

But....I would feel a tinge of buyer's remorse if they were to give up two of those arms as opposed to one.

reds44
07-30-2012, 07:03 PM
He's not useless, but another 1B type is redundant with Frazier and Cairo already on the roster.

If you're proposing that Cairo be assigned, I suppose then there would be room for him.
Cairo is probably going to be gone when Votto is back, Overbay would replace Paul.