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Cooper
07-31-2012, 10:11 AM
1. They kept the right guy. I beleive his intensity and his long term abilities will pay off. He's built like a catcher and he'll start hitting.

2. He lost the argument and won the war. The pitching staff may believe that he got over heated, but if i was a pitcher and knew that my catcher cared THAT much about the strike zone. I would love it. I think there's a positive to his over heated response.

3. I hope he gets to the point where his intensity is there, and his focus is increased. Ryan Hanigan did a wonderful job in managing Johnny Cueoto. The K zone was small and he did seem to be getting squeezed. Ryan kept his intensity and was upset about the calls -but didn't lose his focus and was able to manage Cueto through some tough times.

Dusty needs to tell Mesoraco that he loves the intensity, but not the lack of focus---it's very difficult to manage others thru a crisis if you yourself are in a crisis.

I wonder if almost getting way laid by Maybin increased DM's intensity so much that he could not manage his emotions? Those kind of issues make for one intense situation.

CySeymour
07-31-2012, 10:42 AM
Assuming he gets a suspension, how long does it usually take to get an appeal heard? I would think they would try and delay it until at least Votto comes back.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 10:43 AM
1. They kept the right guy. I beleive his intensity and his long term abilities will pay off. He's built like a catcher and he'll start hitting.

2. He lost the argument and won the war. The pitching staff may believe that he got over heated, but if i was a pitcher and knew that my catcher cared THAT much about the strike zone. I would love it. I think there's a positive to his over heated response.

3. I hope he gets to the point where his intensity is there, and his focus is increased. Ryan Hanigan did a wonderful job in managing Johnny Cueoto. The K zone was small and he did seem to be getting squeezed. Ryan kept his intensity and was upset about the calls -but didn't lose his focus and was able to manage Cueto through some tough times.

Dusty needs to tell Mesoraco that he loves the intensity, but not the lack of focus---it's very difficult to manage others thru a crisis if you yourself are in a crisis.

I wonder if almost getting way laid by Maybin increased DM's intensity so much that he could not manage his emotions? Those kind of issues make for one intense situation.

I love the passion, but he has to control the anger. If anything he's going to cost his pitchers calls in the future by acting like that.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 10:45 AM
I love the passion, but he has to control the anger. If anything he's going to cost his pitchers calls in the future by acting like that.

Agreed. It's nice to see the guy fired up, but not at the expense of winning ball games. Not only has this outburst potentially cost his pitchers future calls, he also might have put the team in a pinch once the suspension kicks in.

Bob Borkowski
07-31-2012, 10:49 AM
Agreed. It's nice to see the guy fired up, but not at the expense of winning ball games. Not only has this outburst potentially cost his pitchers future calls, he also might have put the team in a pinch once the suspension kicks in.

Paging Corky Miller?

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 10:50 AM
Paging Corky Miller?

I'm hoping for Navarro.

wolfboy
07-31-2012, 10:52 AM
Paging Corky Miller?

From what I was reading earlier today, Miller and Navarro are not on the 40/25 man rosters.

cumberlandreds
07-31-2012, 10:52 AM
I think he won a lot of brownie points with his pitchers last night. I liked the fire I saw out of him. Obviously he can't do that very much or its going to get real costly. But as one time thing I liked it.

REDREAD
07-31-2012, 10:56 AM
Assuming he gets a suspension, how long does it usually take to get an appeal heard? I would think they would try and delay it until at least Votto comes back.

It would be a total joke if he's suspended.. Mes was standing there, palms up, ball in his hand, and the ump walked up to Mes and made the contact.
It was very clear on the TV.. even Brantley said that.

This is why I have little respect for umps. The ump had every right to throw Mes out of the game, but then to walk up and bump Mes and then say "Now you touched me" (Lip read, one of the TV guys said the same).. What a tool.
The sooner they have computers calling balls and strikes the better..
They can still have the human ump there for plays at the plate.

cincrazy
07-31-2012, 10:56 AM
I think he won a lot of brownie points with his pitchers last night. I liked the fire I saw out of him. Obviously he can't do that very much or its going to get real costly. But as one time thing I liked it.

But even a one time thing can develop a reputation with the umpires, fairly or unfairly. That umpiring crew will remember that outburst, and you can beat other crews saw it as well. He's got a reputation now, and that isn't good.

Again, I love his passion. He truly cares about winning. But he can't act out like that, even once. It's a bad look. Also, if he was going to blow his top, why would he blow it over a pitch like that? I didn't think it was particularly close. Hell if anything he should've been screaming at Leake, not the ump lol.

Superdude
07-31-2012, 12:23 PM
It would be a total joke if he's suspended.. Mes was standing there, palms up, ball in his hand, and the ump walked up to Mes and made the contact.
It was very clear on the TV.. even Brantley said that.

I just re-watched this. Surely Mes won't get suspended for contact if they watch the video. He was making a hand gesture and the ump walked right into it. Hilarious that he made such a big deal out of it.

Mario-Rijo
07-31-2012, 12:43 PM
From what I was reading earlier today, Miller and Navarro are not on the 40/25 man rosters.

Mike Costanzo has no business on the 40, so at least we know we have a spot available, depending on what happens today.

Chip R
07-31-2012, 12:44 PM
I thought there was a spot open on the 40?

RedFanAlways1966
07-31-2012, 12:47 PM
If MLB has umpires that carry grudges, then it is time to clean the house. A MLB umpire, while human, is a person who should NEVER carry a grudge against an individual or a team. I like to think the umpires in MLB are a bit smarter than that. They might not be perfect (hold comments, lol), but hopefully they understand that their job requires no grudges/paybacks. I also like to think that a REPUTATION is developed by a doing this on a fairly regular basis and not based on a one-time incident. I'd hate to see this molehill become a mountain!

Team Clark
07-31-2012, 12:56 PM
Glad to see the passion. Although I'm not a huge Mesoraco fan just yet, I think what he did goes a long way with his pitching staff. I wouldn't be surprised to see comments from Reds' pitchers saying the same today.

Having said that, the next time he catches, he'll be under the umpiring crew microscope. If anything in baseball is old school, it's the umpiring crews. They will have their way with this rookie if it's the last thing they do. I just hope they don't impact the game too negatively. Especially with the Reds in a pennant race.

OP ED piece here: Mesoraco, as a receiver, is not ready to be a big league catcher. I can't tell you the number of times I have watched him mis-frame a pitch, "sway" away from the strike zone with his body and glove (robbing easy strikes from is pitcher), receive the ball too early in the zone, call for changeups when the batter is well behind a fastball only to see the hitter get out of an 0-2, 1-2 count with a hard single or extra base hit. Mes, more than any other catcher I can remember calls for pitches to speed up the hitter's bat in an odd count and uncalled for situation. His game management is more that of AA. IMO.

Rarely if ever do I see him call a game according to his defense and where they are positioned. A lot, and I do mean A LOT of these things get hidden during the course of a season. Most people do not notice these things but they happen regularly. With the Reds' staff doing so well, it's easy to overlook the little things that do creep up and bite you. Just last night I saw Mes drop a 2 seam FB that was a strike but was called a ball because he simply didn't handle the pitch. Every strike counts. 3 AB's last night I can recall where Leake was off but Mes made him look WAAAY off.

I noticed when Chapman was having a lot of difficulty that Mes was struggling to get set up for Chapman. Mes sets up square behind the plate and sways to the corners. Or if he does set up outside, which is rare, he moves so little that there is no advantage. With Chapman you really can't do that unless you're pitching right down the middle. Hanigan does a tremendous job splitting up the strike zone, splitting the plate and getting those borderline calls Chapman needs to be successful. Baker and possibly Price picked up on that too.

There's a reason why guys like Corky Miller, Tim Spehr, Charlie O'Brien, Tim Lake and guys like them hang on so long. It's just simply not about throwing gear on, catching 1,200 + innings a year and hopefully getting better. Every nuance behind the plate counts. What's even more surprising is that Mark Berry and Mike Stefanski are the Reds' catching coaches during Spring Training for the entire organization. They have Mesoraco EVERY DAY and he really isn't getting better. He WILL get better, he's just not ready, IMO.

George Anderson
07-31-2012, 01:04 PM
If MLB has umpires that carry grudges, then it is time to clean the house. A MLB umpire, while human, is a person who should NEVER carry a grudge against an individual or a team. I like to think the umpires in MLB are a bit smarter than that. They might not be perfect (hold comments, lol), but hopefully they understand that their job requires no grudges/paybacks. I also like to think that a REPUTATION is developed by a doing this on a fairly regular basis and not based on a one-time incident. I'd hate to see this molehill become a mountain!

It is really stressed in the world of umpiring not to hold grudges and while from my experiences I can't say it never happens it is pretty rare. I can see Fairchild having a short leash on Mes if a similar situation happens with Mes disputing a pitch. However as far as widening the zone when Mes is up or blowing a call against him, I seriously doubt that would happen. Most umpires especially at the professional level are not going to want to look bad by blowing a call just to settle a grudge. From my perspective and most of the umpires I know (including many ex pro's) , we realize that sometimes emotions can get out of hand because there is alot of intensity out there on the field and these things will happen.

One teachable moment from this whole thing is when confronting an umpire whether as a player or coach is to keep hands down or behind your back. I keep mine in my back pocket when confronted so they cannot accuse me of trying to hit them or accidentally bump them like what happened with Mes

RedsManRick
07-31-2012, 01:08 PM
Now we just him to block pitches like Hanigan...

AtomicDumpling
07-31-2012, 01:23 PM
It would be a total joke if he's suspended.. Mes was standing there, palms up, ball in his hand, and the ump walked up to Mes and made the contact.
It was very clear on the TV.. even Brantley said that.

This is why I have little respect for umps. The ump had every right to throw Mes out of the game, but then to walk up and bump Mes and then say "Now you touched me" (Lip read, one of the TV guys said the same).. What a tool.
The sooner they have computers calling balls and strikes the better..
They can still have the human ump there for plays at the plate.

You are absolutely right. It was a shameful display by the umpire. He escalated the dispute instead of walking away like a true professional. The contact was very clearly the umpire's fault yet he tried to blame it on Mesoraco. He showed he is a dishonest person. A good umpire has to control his emotions, remain impartial and be impeccably honest. If he can't do those things he doesn't belong in the big leagues.

Mesoraco needs to learn that sometimes you are going to get paired up with a poor umpire. He needs to learn how to handle the situation better than he did last night obviously. He can learn a lot from Ryan Hanigan when it comes to manipulating umpires.

dfs
07-31-2012, 01:37 PM
The sooner they have computers calling balls and strikes the better.
Boy it pains me to agree with that, but I do.

The umps have come a LONG way since the bad old days, but it just isn't enough.

dougdirt
07-31-2012, 02:37 PM
Glad to see the passion. Although I'm not a huge Mesoraco fan just yet, I think what he did goes a long way with his pitching staff. I wouldn't be surprised to see comments from Reds' pitchers saying the same today.

Having said that, the next time he catches, he'll be under the umpiring crew microscope. If anything in baseball is old school, it's the umpiring crews. They will have their way with this rookie if it's the last thing they do. I just hope they don't impact the game too negatively. Especially with the Reds in a pennant race.

OP ED piece here: Mesoraco, as a receiver, is not ready to be a big league catcher. I can't tell you the number of times I have watched him mis-frame a pitch, "sway" away from the strike zone with his body and glove (robbing easy strikes from is pitcher), receive the ball too early in the zone, call for changeups when the batter is well behind a fastball only to see the hitter get out of an 0-2, 1-2 count with a hard single or extra base hit. Mes, more than any other catcher I can remember calls for pitches to speed up the hitter's bat in an odd count and uncalled for situation. His game management is more that of AA. IMO.

Rarely if ever do I see him call a game according to his defense and where they are positioned. A lot, and I do mean A LOT of these things get hidden during the course of a season. Most people do not notice these things but they happen regularly. With the Reds' staff doing so well, it's easy to overlook the little things that do creep up and bite you. Just last night I saw Mes drop a 2 seam FB that was a strike but was called a ball because he simply didn't handle the pitch. Every strike counts. 3 AB's last night I can recall where Leake was off but Mes made him look WAAAY off.

I noticed when Chapman was having a lot of difficulty that Mes was struggling to get set up for Chapman. Mes sets up square behind the plate and sways to the corners. Or if he does set up outside, which is rare, he moves so little that there is no advantage. With Chapman you really can't do that unless you're pitching right down the middle. Hanigan does a tremendous job splitting up the strike zone, splitting the plate and getting those borderline calls Chapman needs to be successful. Baker and possibly Price picked up on that too.

There's a reason why guys like Corky Miller, Tim Spehr, Charlie O'Brien, Tim Lake and guys like them hang on so long. It's just simply not about throwing gear on, catching 1,200 + innings a year and hopefully getting better. Every nuance behind the plate counts. What's even more surprising is that Mark Berry and Mike Stefanski are the Reds' catching coaches during Spring Training for the entire organization. They have Mesoraco EVERY DAY and he really isn't getting better. He WILL get better, he's just not ready, IMO.

Which is all the more reason we need to move to computerized strikezones. How someone frames a pitch or catches a pitch doesn't make it a strike or a ball. I have read the rules on the strikezone. Nowhere does it say anything about if a catcher does this or that when he catches the ball it can make a ball a strike or a strike a ball.

RedsManRick
07-31-2012, 02:46 PM
Which is all the more reason we need to move to computerized strikezones. How someone frames a pitch or catches a pitch doesn't make it a strike or a ball. I have read the rules on the strikezone. Nowhere does it say anything about if a catcher does this or that when he catches the ball it can make a ball a strike or a strike a ball.

Agreed completely. But in the meantime, the game is the game. What should be doesn't keep runs off the board.

dougdirt
07-31-2012, 02:54 PM
Agreed completely. But in the meantime, the game is the game. What should be doesn't keep runs off the board.

Agreed. Just really annoying. It is like saying that every shot Ray Allen takes should count as a point at least because it looks so nice, but one that say Dwight Howard takes outside of the paint shouldn't even if he makes it because it was ugly. Just a silly way to handle things.

RedsManRick
07-31-2012, 03:04 PM
Agreed. Just really annoying. It is like saying that every shot Ray Allen takes should count as a point at least because it looks so nice, but one that say Dwight Howard takes outside of the paint shouldn't even if he makes it because it was ugly. Just a silly way to handle things.

Hardly a fair comparison. This has nothing to do with aesthetics. The umpires aren't judging the catchers based on how prettily they catch and giving extra zone accordingly. It's simply a function of calling balls and strikes being a very hard thing to do and that certain catching behaviors make that catchers do affect it.

If a basketball player could shuffle his feet in such a way that allowed him to be given credit for 3 pointers while standing a foot inside the line (or conversely, have a legit 3 point shot deemed worth 2 because the ref couldn't see where his feet where), we'd want our guys to take advantage of that.

It's stupid, but as the game exists right now, a catcher's ability to frame pitches has notable influence on how the zone is called. Period. If a guy stinks at it, that's a problem.

George Anderson
07-31-2012, 03:13 PM
Hardly a fair comparison. This has nothing to do with aesthetics. The umpires aren't judging the catchers based on how prettily they catch and giving extra zone accordingly. It's simply a function of calling balls and strikes being a very hard thing to do and that certain catching behaviors make that catchers do affect it.

.

Your exactly right. Umpire mechanics are taught to follow the ball to the mitt. If the mitt is moving it makes it harder to track the pitch.

The next part of calling balls and strikes is keeping your head still. Your eyes are like a box camera and a box camera cannot take a good picture of the ball if the box is moving. Many umpires move their head without realizing it. We often have to literally hold our students’ heads still because they cannot tell themselves that their head is moving.. The eyeballs (as opposed to the head) follow the ball from the pitcher’s hand and see it all of the way into the catcher’s mitt.* This is called tracking. It is not easy and it is unlikely that amateurs who have not been specifically schooled in this will do it correctly.

http://www.umpire.org/writers/plate1.html

RedsFan75
08-02-2012, 08:57 AM
You are absolutely right. It was a shameful display by the umpire. He escalated the dispute instead of walking away like a true professional. The contact was very clearly the umpire's fault yet he tried to blame it on Mesoraco. He showed he is a dishonest person. A good umpire has to control his emotions, remain impartial and be impeccably honest. If he can't do those things he doesn't belong in the big leagues.
....

I can't seem to locate it, and my memory isn't what it used to be, but wasn't an ump suspended last year for doing just that... escalating the situation instead of defusing it?

Another thing about the ump, in the following night, when he was on 3rd, he was still making calls that looked a bit biased, one of my friends, who doesn't watch much baseball, commented on the swing appeal that was called a strike by him. Friend said... "Hmm, that guy must have money on the other team" :laugh: Cracked me up,

Slyder
08-02-2012, 09:17 AM
But even a one time thing can develop a reputation with the umpires, fairly or unfairly. That umpiring crew will remember that outburst, and you can beat other crews saw it as well. He's got a reputation now, and that isn't good.

Again, I love his passion. He truly cares about winning. But he can't act out like that, even once. It's a bad look. Also, if he was going to blow his top, why would he blow it over a pitch like that? I didn't think it was particularly close. Hell if anything he should've been screaming at Leake, not the ump lol.

Then MLB has a bigger joke of a collection of umpires than I thought. If that is going to cause the Reds to be called differently then the entire group needs fired and start over with guys from the minors or college. The point of any referee/umpire is that you are a impartial and call the game fairly, when you lose that ability it's time you do something else.

Steve4192
08-02-2012, 09:41 AM
1. They kept the right guy.

I'm not going to cry over spilt milk, but I think that is very much up for debate. Grandal has been an absolute beast this year at AAA and in his short exposure in the majors. I'll support Mesoraco since we can't undo what has been done, but I think the Padres may have wound up with the better player.

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2012, 11:42 AM
I'm not going to cry over spilt milk, but I think that is very much up for debate. Grandal has been an absolute beast this year at AAA and in his short exposure in the majors. I'll support Mesoraco since we can't undo what has been done, but I think the Padres may have wound up with the better player.

You are probably right if we count Gandal's 83 total ABs as an indicator (you did mention short exposure! not a slight to you). I might be old-school, but the ability to call pitches and "work with" the pitcher should be counted too. Not sure how we can quantify that. Of course Latos may not be in Cincy if Mes was offered rather than Grandal (I do not know, just sayin').

traderumor
08-02-2012, 04:18 PM
I can't seem to locate it, and my memory isn't what it used to be, but wasn't an ump suspended last year for doing just that... escalating the situation instead of defusing it?

Another thing about the ump, in the following night, when he was on 3rd, he was still making calls that looked a bit biased, one of my friends, who doesn't watch much baseball, commented on the swing appeal that was called a strike by him. Friend said... "Hmm, that guy must have money on the other team" :laugh: Cracked me up,Apparently, he was still at it today according to Brantley (take that for what its worth), made a bad call on a check swing. Regardless, Chad Fairchild does not seem to be a professional umpire, just an umpire calling games in the big leagues. Hopefully he will join Bob Davidson in the unemployment line.