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View Full Version : Umpire tosses the Music intern in minor league game



dougdirt
08-02-2012, 01:38 PM
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120801&content_id=35977786&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb

Nothing was funny for Seneca. After a questionable play at first base, Harper argued the call with infield umpire Ramon Hernandez. Daytona first baseman Taylor Davis appeared to pick a ball in the dirt thrown by shortstop Tim Saunders, but it came out of his glove when he turned to toss it around the infield. Hernandez ruled Davis had bobbled the ball rather than dropping it on the transfer and declared Fort Myers' Andy Leer safe.

Dye, a Cubs intern from the University of Illinois, fired up one of his new music clips -- an organ version of "Three Blind Mice," the well-known English nursery rhyme about visually impaired rodents getting into a scuffle with a farmer's wife.

Now this is something you don't see every day.

There is video at the link.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 02:04 PM
I worked with an umpire who dumped an organist for playing the Mickey Mouse theme song in a AAA game back in the early 80's.

I dumped an PA announcer once in a HS game a few years back. The coach wouldn't make the PA announcer leave so I ended up forfeiting the game. Of course this had to happen in the 7th inning and not the 1st.

powersackers
08-02-2012, 02:16 PM
DJs are there for fan entertainment. Nothing they do should justify a tossing.

Unassisted
08-02-2012, 02:21 PM
I've heard of organists getting tossed for playing "Three Blind Mice" before. Interns don't know any better. Old guys like us remember. :cool:

Brantley and Kelch were discussing the other night how umpires are getting thinner skins and escalating confrontations, instead of cooling them down. This is not the time to be taunting them with music.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 02:22 PM
DJs are there for fan entertainment. Nothing they do should justify a tossing.

It's called a PA announcer and not a DJ.

If someone associated with a team is doing something insulting or demeaning to an umpire then yes it is grounds for ejection. I have seen trainers, batboys, scorekeepers etc... that were ejected and they were all warranted.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 02:31 PM
It's called a PA announcer and not a DJ.

If someone associated with a team is doing something insulting or demeaning to an umpire then yes it is grounds for ejection. I have seen trainers, batboys, scorekeepers etc... that were ejected and they were all warranted.

No, they don't. That's ludicrous. The organist is entertaining the fans. Yes, at the expense of a perceived bad call, but get over it, it comes with the territory. Most umpires would realize they miss some. He need to lighten up. That's absurd. I've umpired before and I wouldn't even think of it, I'd laugh it off. I was a high school soccer coach at one point, and fans yelled at a referee one time for being "blind". The center official stopped the game, called the coaches and my AD to the sideline and told us (me and the AD as it was our home game) that he wanted the stands cleared. My AD told him he could leave, and we'd finish with a two man crew (two side judges) and he'd stop payment on his check. Needless to say, the game continued, and no one got hurt or anything. Other than the referee's bruised ego.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 02:36 PM
No, they don't. That's ludicrous. The organist is entertaining the fans. Yes, at the expense of a perceived bad call, but get over it, it comes with the territory. Most umpires would realize they miss some. He need to lighten up. That's absurd. I've umpired before and I wouldn't even think of it, I'd laugh it off. I was a high school soccer coach at one point, and fans yelled at a referee one time for being "blind". The center official stopped the game, called the coaches and my AD to the sideline and told us (me and the AD as it was our home game) that he wanted the stands cleared. My AD told him he could leave, and we'd finish with a two man crew (two side judges) and he'd stop payment on his check. Needless to say, the game continued, and no one got hurt or anything. Other than the referee's bruised ego.

You umpired at what level?

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 02:39 PM
I was a high school soccer coach at one point, and fans yelled at a referee one time for being "blind". The center official stopped the game, called the coaches and my AD to the sideline and told us (me and the AD as it was our home game) that he wanted the stands cleared. My AD told him he could leave, and we'd finish with a two man crew (two side judges) and he'd stop payment on his check. Needless to say, the game continued, and no one got hurt or anything. Other than the referee's bruised ego.

Also in this situation the other two referees need to realize they are a team and if the AD told one of the referees to leave then all the referees should have left. Being part of a officiating crew is being part of a team and you don't let a team member be treated as such by an AD. Now having said that I think the referee may have overreacted by wanting the stands cleared for such a minor offense but regardless, the other ref's were wrong for letting the AD do what he did.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 02:48 PM
Also in this situation the other two referees need to realize they are a team and if the AD told one of the referees to leave then all the referees should have left. Being part of a officiating crew is being part of a team and you don't let a team member be treated as such by an AD. Now having said that I think the referee may have overreacted by wanting the stands cleared for such a minor offense but regardless, the other ref's were wrong for letting the AD do what he did.

I understand that, but the referee was way out of line, and overstepping his bounds. Thankfully, I think the other two were so dumbfounded, and had some common sense they didn't say anything. I've seen a lot of officials, referees, and umpires get waaaaaaaaay too power hungry in my day, and I think tossing an organist for making light of a call is a great example of that. Really the only way a fan or someone else should be tossed if if they are doing something dangerous, or infringing on other fan's right to enjoy a game (obnoxiously drunk or something ludicrous). For goodness sake, it's a game. And again, I think most umpires, officials, etc. get that some heat is part of the game, it comes with the job.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I understand that, but the referee was way out of line, and overstepping his bounds. Thankfully, I think the other two were so dumbfounded, and had some common sense they didn't say anything. I've seen a lot of officials, referees, and umpires get waaaaaaaaay too power hungry in my day, and I think tossing an organist for making light of a call is a great example of that.

Well his partners should have pulled him aside and told him not to clear the stands if in fact tell him what he was doing was wrong. I wasn't there but they share some of the blame by not stopping what he wanted to do. But they also were very wrong in letting and AD do what he did to the ref. I promise you if I ever heard an AD tell my partner what the AD told that ref I would be off the field in no time in support of my partner. Bottom line is the whole thing sounds messed up.

As far as the organist being dumped, he is employed by the team and thus any actions or comments he makes can result in ejection. I see this thing as being an issue of consistency, if an organist who is emplyed by the club can mock the umpires then why can't the players, managers, grounds crew etc??? Your setting a bad precedent by letting some employees of the team mock you and not let others.

westofyou
08-02-2012, 03:02 PM
DJs are there for fan entertainment. Nothing they do should justify a tossing.

This is how the guy used to have to do his job, announcing the at bats etc..

Not needling the guys in between the lines.

http://media.cleveland.com/pdq_impact/photo/league-park-announcerjpg-73c8db8569447b71_large.jpg

redsmetz
08-02-2012, 03:10 PM
I posted this story over on the minor league forum about an hour ago.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2689153#post2689153

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2012, 03:13 PM
Mocking an umpire's call with music right after the call? You get what you deserve. You are belittling the person's ability to do the job he/she gets paid to do. Guess what? An umpire has the right to eject anyone. Not sure the fans paid ticket owes them the right to watch a professional get belittled for the job they are paid to do.

Hopefully the intern has learned a lesson.

medford
08-02-2012, 03:16 PM
In basketall, football and a lesser extent baseball (outside of the umpire, there aren't nearly as many close decisions each game, or calls of judgement like in football or basketball) an umpire almost has to expect to hear some boos. I'd almost go as far as saying if they don't hear some booing from the home fans, then they're likely not doing their job. The home fans obviously think every call should go their way, if they're not booing you, then you may not be calling things even-steven.

throwing out the DJ for playing 3 blind mice after a close call is bush league. I could see if if the guy continued to do so after every call, but grow some thicker skin and move forward.

medford
08-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Mocking an umpire's call with music right after the call? You get what you deserve. You are belittling the person's ability to do the job he/she gets paid to do. Guess what? An umpire has the right to eject anyone. Not sure the fans paid ticket owes them the right to watch a professional get belittled for the job they are paid to do.

Hopefully the intern has learned a lesson.

So does an oppossing player have the right to eject oppossing fans who mock him too much for poor plays in or off the field?

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 03:24 PM
throwing out the DJ for playing 3 blind mice after a close call is bush league. I could see if if the guy continued to do so after every call, but grow some thicker skin and move forward.

Ok so you think playing 3 Blind Mice is ok after a questionable call but what about the Mickey Mouse theme? Or in the situation I had, a PA announcer made the comment over the PA that my partners call stunk. Is that ok or is just a song like above ok to mock the ump?? If all of the above are ok then how often is it allowed to be done? Anytime the organist wants or just once or twice a game? If it is ok for the organist to insult the umps by calling them blind then why not the players or manager? Or at the very least the grounds crew?

Here is an idea, why doesn't the organist, the PA announcer, the players and managers and anyone employed by the club just simply do their job as a professional and not resort to taunting the umpires?

powersackers
08-02-2012, 04:03 PM
It's called a PA announcer and not a DJ.

If someone associated with a team is doing something insulting or demeaning to an umpire then yes it is grounds for ejection. I have seen trainers, batboys, scorekeepers etc... that were ejected and they were all warranted.

A PA makes announcements. "Now Batting yada yada". He should not comment on the gameplay.

A DJ Plays music for fan entertainment. The Reds have a DJ and a PA. You can tweet requests to the DJ by using hashtag #redsDJ during the game. He can play whatever he wants inbetween game action. End of story.

CySeymour
08-02-2012, 04:24 PM
I think confusing the expected conduct of team employees and fans is pretty off base.

RedFanAlways1966
08-02-2012, 04:36 PM
So does an oppossing player have the right to eject oppossing fans who mock him too much for poor plays in or off the field?

No. If that fan crosses the "line", then the home team ushers/security should eject the fan. An opposing player cannot eject anyone (well perhaps he can eject himself). He can complain to stadium officials about it.

There are a lot of "lines". When you cross it, then you pay the price. A music/DJ/organist needs to learn those "lines". Implying that an umpire is blind after a call by playing "Three Blind Mice" is not only belittling... it is crossing the "line". Some umps might laugh it off. Somr might not. I can see and agree with both types of umpires. But I will not give an umpire who ejects that person grief for it. Rather I will tell the music person that you were wrong and should show a little more respect for that paid prefessional. You are not a fan, you are an employee. You are an entertainer, but not at the expense of another paid professional.. who has the right to toss your "line-crossing" self.

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 04:47 PM
It's called a PA announcer and not a DJ.

If someone associated with a team is doing something insulting or demeaning to an umpire then yes it is grounds for ejection. I have seen trainers, batboys, scorekeepers etc... that were ejected and they were all warranted.

Why are Umps supposed to be some kind of god immune to teasing?

Geez, lighten up a bit. I don't understand why you are proud of forfieting a game in the 7th inning.. this is just kids playing a game.. Think of all the families that invested time to come to this game, only to see it forfeited over something silly.

It's ok for fans to put up banners making fun of players, etc..
It's ok for the PA announcer to play funny music when the opposing manager visits the mound, etc
Why are umps immune to this? Geez.

WMR
08-02-2012, 04:52 PM
No one mock the poor umpires! Those fragile egos cannot take it!

Caveat Emperor
08-02-2012, 04:54 PM
Ok so you think playing 3 Blind Mice is ok after a questionable call but what about the Mickey Mouse theme? Or in the situation I had, a PA announcer made the comment over the PA that my partners call stunk. Is that ok or is just a song like above ok to mock the ump?? If all of the above are ok then how often is it allowed to be done? Anytime the organist wants or just once or twice a game? If it is ok for the organist to insult the umps by calling them blind then why not the players or manager? Or at the very least the grounds crew?

Here is an idea, why doesn't the organist, the PA announcer, the players and managers and anyone employed by the club just simply do their job as a professional and not resort to taunting the umpires?

I'd submit there's a word of difference between a playing a nursery-rhyme song to entertain the fans and yelling a jeer at the umpire. If you can't distinguish the context as an umpire, you need to seriously re-evaluate your level of self-importance.

CySeymour
08-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Why are Umps supposed to be some kind of god immune to teasing?

Geez, lighten up a bit. I don't understand why you are proud of forfieting a game in the 7th inning.. this is just kids playing a game.. Think of all the families that invested time to come to this game, only to see it forfeited over something silly.

It's ok for fans to put up banners making fun of players, etc..
It's ok for the PA announcer to play funny music when the opposing manager visits the mound, etc
Why are umps immune to this? Geez.

If the PA announcer was behaving as george anderson was describing, then yeah, it was within the umps right to call a forfeit. As a parent, I would have been more upset with the PA announcer then the ump.

medford
08-02-2012, 05:00 PM
Ok so you think playing 3 Blind Mice is ok after a questionable call but what about the Mickey Mouse theme?

I say no big deal if the DJ does it. Not sure what the exact Mickey Mouse them is, but if they did the Hot Dog Dance song, I'd love it.
Or in the situation I had, a PA announcer made the comment over the PA that my partners call stunk. Is that ok or is just a song like above ok to mock the ump??

Not OK, but not really reason for an ejection by the ump. Grow thicker skin and in the case of the PA, the team should handle it intenrally and let the PA person know that in game comments are not welcome, just the facts


If all of the above are ok then how often is it allowed to be done? Anytime the organist wants or just once or twice a game? If it is ok for the organist to insult the umps by calling them blind then why not the players or manager? Or at the very least the grounds crew?

the DJ would be within their rights to mock the manager, I've seen it before at Reds games where the oppossing manager comes out to argue and they put up a crying baby image on the big screen. Again, all in fun. How often, only often enough that it stays fresh and is w/n reason. IE, you have a close call in the 1st and do, then again in the 2nd, then again in the 3rd, quickly it becomes old hat. Pull it out once a game when the home fans are already booing and it adds something to the game for the home fans to enjoy. The Grounds crew shouldn't be yelling anything at the oppossing team or manager good or bad.


Here is an idea, why doesn't the organist, the PA announcer, the players and managers and anyone employed by the club just simply do their job as a professional and not resort to taunting the umpires?

The organist and DJ's job is to entertain the fans. Mocking an ump w/ 3 blind mice can occasionally be amusing. I know hearing 3 blind mice play in the background is the worst thing an Ump has ever heard.

And yes, my grandfather was an NFL ref for many, many seasons, so I've heard them all (actually I'm sure many were censored).

Or is an umpire or referee suppose to immune to criticism? We all know they screw up at times, and I think most level headed people recognize that they do a wonderful job 99% of the time.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 05:06 PM
You umpired at what level?

High school and college summer ball. Sorry, I missed that question.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:08 PM
Why are Umps supposed to be some kind of god immune to teasing?

Geez, lighten up a bit. I don't understand why you are proud of forfieting a game in the 7th inning.. this is just kids playing a game.. Think of all the families that invested time to come to this game, only to see it forfeited over something silly.

It's ok for fans to put up banners making fun of players, etc..
It's ok for the PA announcer to play funny music when the opposing manager visits the mound, etc
Why are umps immune to this? Geez.

Actually the coach forfeited the game by his refusing to do as I directed to remove the PA announcer. If you want to play the poor kiddies, parents etc card then play it towards the coach.

Also just what ball park allows fans to bring in banners to make fun of players and what do the banners say ?? If I am not mistaken MLB does not allow banners in their parks making disparaging comments of others. I am also not sure what park has "funny music" when an opposing manager visits the mound. What park is this and what do they play? Regardless of what you find, making disparaging comments over the PA or playing songs over the PA that are mocking the job the umpire is doing is not defensible. It quite simply is bush league and unprofessional. The umpire is on the field to do a job and allowing paid employees of a professional baseball team to mock or insult him just to amuse the masses is horribly insane.

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 05:12 PM
If the PA announcer was behaving as george anderson was describing, then yeah, it was within the umps right to call a forfeit. As a parent, I would have been more upset with the PA announcer then the ump.

Isn't George umpiring a high school game though?
That's a lot different than the Reds PA announcer mocking the ump.
The high school PA guy is some unpaid volunteer, doing this job to help the school.. Yea, it's not appropriate for him to broadcast "The umps stink" (I think that's what George said)

But forfieiting the game is a huge overreaction.

In the incident we saw with Mez, Fairchild clearly escalated the conflict to stroke his ego.. Fairchild should also be subject to suspension for iniating the contact.
Umps are abusing their power.

Canceling a high school game because someone (even the PA announcer) yells "the umps stink".. talk about overreaction.
Yea, George asked them to remove the PA guy, but it's not as if the school has a backup all ready to go.. I mean, give me a break.. that's not a reasonable request.

How about the ump just sucks it up, acts mature and continues the game.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:12 PM
I say no big deal if the DJ does it. Not sure what the exact Mickey Mouse them is, but if they did the Hot Dog Dance song, I'd love it.

Not OK, but not really reason for an ejection by the ump. Grow thicker skin and in the case of the PA, the team should handle it intenrally and let the PA person know that in game comments are not welcome, just the facts



the DJ would be within their rights to mock the manager, I've seen it before at Reds games where the oppossing manager comes out to argue and they put up a crying baby image on the big screen. Again, all in fun. How often, only often enough that it stays fresh and is w/n reason. IE, you have a close call in the 1st and do, then again in the 2nd, then again in the 3rd, quickly it becomes old hat. Pull it out once a game when the home fans are already booing and it adds something to the game for the home fans to enjoy. The Grounds crew shouldn't be yelling anything at the oppossing team or manager good or bad.



The organist and DJ's job is to entertain the fans. Mocking an ump w/ 3 blind mice can occasionally be amusing. I know hearing 3 blind mice play in the background is the worst thing an Ump has ever heard.

And yes, my grandfather was an NFL ref for many, many seasons, so I've heard them all (actually I'm sure many were censored).

Or is an umpire or referee suppose to immune to criticism? We all know they screw up at times, and I think most level headed people recognize that they do a wonderful job 99% of the time.

I simply disagree, if you think this behavior towards officials is ok then by all means I hope you encourage it. Just keep in mind any official worth his grain in salt IMO is not going to see the humor in it and thus eject as necessary.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:17 PM
I'd submit there's a word of difference between a playing a nursery-rhyme song to entertain the fans and yelling a jeer at the umpire. If you can't distinguish the context as an umpire, you need to seriously re-evaluate your level of self-importance.

Personal attack aside, calling an official blind whether through a song, a hand written note from the bat boy, a cupcake decorated with "you suck" on it or simply as a jeer are all insults. An insult results in an ejection. It really is that simple.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 05:17 PM
I simply disagree, if you think this behavior towards officials is ok then by all means I hope you encourage it. Just keep in mind any official worth his grain in salt IMO is not going to see the humor in it and thus eject as necessary.

Yeah we will agree to disagree then. No reason any official, umpire, etc. can't have humor in an instance like this. I'd keep in mind, with that attitude, if you're that serious don't miss any calls. Coaches, fans, and players might take your calls as serious as you do and get on you for it. Of course, you can eject them.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 05:19 PM
Actually the coach forfeited the game by his refusing to do as I directed to remove the PA announcer. If you want to play the poor kiddies, parents etc card then play it towards the coach.


Give me a break.. you forced the action.. You escalated the situation.
He refused to comply with your request, thus YOU forfieted the game.
You had the option to continue the game, didn't you..
This just proves how arrogant umpires are.. No offense personally.. but
you are saying "They ignored my eddict, it's their fault".
Why did you have to make such an issue out of this?




Also just what ball park allows fans to bring in banners to make fun of players and what do the banners say ?? If I am not mistaken MLB does not allow banners in their parks making disparaging comments of others. I am also not sure what park has "funny music" when an opposing manager visits the mound. What park is this and what do they play?


One team (I think it was the twins) would play the Darth Vader theme music every time the opposing manager came to the mound. If that manager was thin skinned, he would whine about being compared to a character that commited genocide in a movie.

It's fairly routine even at the ML level to play goofy music sometimes when the opposing manager makes a mound visit.





Regardless of what you find, making disparaging comments over the PA or playing songs over the PA that are mocking the job the umpire is doing is not defensible. It quite simply is bush league and unprofessional. The umpire is on the field to do a job and allowing paid employees of a professional baseball team to mock or insult him just to amuse the masses is horribly insane.

You are umpiring a high school game.. Shouldn't you expect some bush league behavior? Was the PA announcer a paid professional that did this full time? I kind of doubt it. Most likely he was a volunteer helping the school out.

jojo
08-02-2012, 05:20 PM
It's pretty silly to toss a music intern. Kinda speaks volumes about the ump in question IMHO.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 05:21 PM
Personal attack aside, calling an official blind whether through a song, a hand written note from the bat boy, a cupcake decorated with "you suck" on it or simply as a jeer are all insults. An insult results in an ejection. It really is that simple.

If you're taking it personal, you are taking it wrong. It's not personal. It's "ump", or "blue". It's not "hey George, you are blind"!

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:23 PM
Isn't George umpiring a high school game though?
That's a lot different than the Reds PA announcer mocking the ump.
The high school PA guy is some unpaid volunteer, doing this job to help the school.. Yea, it's not appropriate for him to broadcast "The umps stink" (I think that's what George said)

But forfieiting the game is a huge overreaction.

Canceling a high school game because someone (even the PA announcer) yells "the umps stink".. talk about overreaction.
Yea, George asked them to remove the PA guy, but it's not as if the school has a backup all ready to go.. I mean, give me a break.. that's not a reasonable request.

How about the ump just sucks it up, acts mature and continues the game.


Once again, I did not forfeit the game. The coach did by refusing to abide by my request.

An umpire can remove anyone at anytime for any reason whether they are paid or not. If some one has a problem with what the umpire did they can take it up with the league afterwards. However I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any professional level or nonprofessional level that would not side with the umpire in the instances above.

I hope you found I was able to "suck it up" and "act mature" in my response. I have been called much, much worse, trust me.

VR
08-02-2012, 05:24 PM
Too much of a grey line.

Umps are in a unique situation of authority. All order must be kept by them. We've all been at amateur games with the pyscho parents and Rambo coaches. We need order in sports, and the umps are there to provide that.

Unfortunately...umps can never win.

traderumor
08-02-2012, 05:26 PM
No one's concerned about poor sportsmanship anymore. Mocking officials is poor sportsmanship, whether we all do it or not.

CySeymour
08-02-2012, 05:28 PM
You are umpiring a high school game.. Shouldn't you expect some bush league behavior? Was the PA announcer a paid professional that did this full time? I kind of doubt it. Most likely he was a volunteer helping the school out.

And I would guess the school principal or AD would make sure that PA announcer was never allowed to volunteer again. The volunteer was probably a parent, and they surely should know that wasn't the proper thing to do.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:30 PM
If you're taking it personal, you are taking it wrong. It's not personal. It's "ump", or "blue". It's not "hey George, you are blind"!

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

You are commenting directly to me regardless of how you address me. Next time you get pulled by a cop over be sure to make the comment "officer you are blind" If you get any grief from from him tell him since you didn't use his first name it wasn't meant to be personal.

Let me know how that goes.

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 05:33 PM
And I would guess the school principal or AD would make sure that PA announcer was never allowed to volunteer again. The volunteer was probably a parent, and they surely should know that wasn't the proper thing to do.

Seems like another overreaction.
Assuming the volunteer was reliable, why should the principal terminate him? You realize how difficult it is to get volunteers to do anything.

Honestly, if I was principal, I'd ask the ump to not return. At our high schools, the umps ARE paid, so more should be expected of them. Much easier to fill in a paid person than an unpaid volunteer..

I guess we wil have to disagree on the seriousness of this issue.. I don't see anyone moving on this :laugh:

WMR
08-02-2012, 05:35 PM
The best umpires/officials are the ones you never know are there, not someone on a power trip looking to flex their muscles and trying to find something to get offended over.

medford
08-02-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm guessing the officer wouldn't eject me from my car :)

Seriously its a matter of common sense and being flexible where the line is drawn. We all deserve a little good natured ribbing from time to time, umpires and cops alike.

The proper thing would have been to warn the guy/team. If they kept at it, then eject them. It was likely a HS parent letting his emotions get away from him w/ the PA on.

jojo
08-02-2012, 05:38 PM
I'm guessing the officer wouldn't eject me from my car :)

Seriously its a matter of common sense and being flexible where the line is drawn. We all deserve a little good natured ribbing from time to time, umpires and cops alike.

The proper thing would have been to warn the guy/team. If they kept at it, then eject them. It was likely a HS parent letting his emotions get away from him w/ the PA on.

And he probably didn't pull you over because he doesn't like your taste in music......

jojo
08-02-2012, 05:42 PM
Just get the call right and music selection isn't an issue.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 05:44 PM
Give me a break.. you forced the action.. You escalated the situation.He refused to comply with your request, thus YOU forfieted the game.
You had the option to continue the game, didn't you..
This just proves how arrogant umpires are.. No offense personally.. but
you are saying "They ignored my eddict, it's their fault".
Why did you have to make such an issue out of this?







.

It is this simple, if anyone directly related to the game at any level whether it is MLB or LL is subject to ejection if they did something that is perceived by an umpire to be insulting or unsportsmanlike.

In my instance the PA announcer whether paid or not (it doesn't matter) was ejected for using a microphone to incite an already hostile crowd. His actions escalated the situation and because of this I was forced to remove him from the game. Because the coach (who I ejected also) refused to abide by order to have him removed left me no choice but to end the game. Once again, by their refusal to do as they were told by the person running the game the umpire resulted in the game being forfeited due to them and no one else but them. There are rules to follow whether you like them or not.

If you wish you rewrite the umpires manual directing umpires to take these types of comments, insults etc.. then by all means start the process of doing so. Till then that is just the way it is.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 05:46 PM
You are commenting directly to me regardless of how you address me. Next time you get pulled by a cop over be sure to make the comment "officer you are blind" If you get any grief from from him tell him since you didn't use his first name it wasn't meant to be personal.

Let me know how that goes.

Comparing an umpire to a police officer? Yeah, that answers it for me. Our views are really different. I'll bow out now.

medford
08-02-2012, 05:47 PM
And he probably didn't pull you over because he doesn't like your taste in music......

Nah, I like both country and western.

westofyou
08-02-2012, 05:49 PM
Baseball has taken great strides in legitimizing the umpire throughout the years, a game needs a strong judge to make the game less of a farce than it can become when the authority is questioned by the folks involved in the presentation of the game.

Anyone who has studied the games history knows that this took a long time to take root (decades) and now it should be construed as a fabric of the game, from little league to major leagues.

IMO anyone who is working at the game is a part of the game and thus they fall under the jurisdiction of the umpire.

If they don't like it they can go be the PA announcer at the pool or something.

RedsBaron
08-02-2012, 05:55 PM
A couple of years ago at a high school game between my son's Wayne Pioneers and the home team Chapmanville Tigers I saw a fan ejected from a game by the home plate umpire. A call at secondbase went against Chapmanville. An adult Chapmanville fan began yelling abuse at the secondbase umpire. I don't recall that he was cursing the umpire but in a very loud voice he repeatedly verbally abused the ump.
The home plate umpire, whom I know, finally turned around and told the fan to stop or he would be ejected. Despite that warning the fan continued his abuse. The home plate umpire then ordered him to leave. When the fan didn't move the home plate umpire stopped play and informed the Chapmanville coach that the game would be forfeited if the fan didn't leave. Chapmanville people then got the fan to leave (he went to the parking lot beyond the right field fence).
I believe that the home plate umpire handled that situation correctly. He did not react with a hair trigger and he gave the Chapmanville fan a warning and only ejected him after the warning went unheeded.
I saw another high umpire mishandle a situation that spring. Wayne fans were upset by the home plate umpire's calls (frankly I beleive his calls may have been correct). Anyway, at the conclusion of this game, played at an Ohio school, one player's mother yelled something at the umpire (she didn't curse but she made it clear she didn't like how he had called the game). Instead of ignoring her and going on to his car (the game was over), the umpire instead started yelling back at her. Well, her 17 year old son reacted like a typical teenager, witnessing his mother being verbally abused. He became very upset and I became concerned that a physical confrontation might result; fortunately cooler heads prevailed.
In that situation, the mother was wrong, the teenager was wrong---but the supposed professional, the umpire, was also wrong. The game was over, fans of the losing team were upset, but all he had to do was simply go to his vehicle. No one was hindering his leaving.
An umpire should keep order but this can be done without having a hair trigger temper and pretending that dissent is not allowed.

REDREAD
08-02-2012, 05:59 PM
EDITED..

Sure, the umps can eject whoever they feel like it and there's no consequences. Just like there's no consequences for Fairchild bumping Mes and getting him further upset. It's supposed to be a judgment call by the umps. Unfortunately some umps love going on power trips and abusing that power.

traderumor
08-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Just get the call right and music selection isn't an issue.
So you'd be ok with officials jeering players when they make an error, or miss a shot, or the field goal goes wide left?

jojo
08-02-2012, 06:12 PM
So you'd be ok with officials jeering players when they make an error, or miss a shot, or the field goal goes wide left?

If it were a logical extension of my position, it would be ok...but that's the thing, it's not on either count.

I'm down with the notion that calling balls and strikes is not a democracy. But it's called baseball rather than umpire for a reason.

traderumor
08-02-2012, 06:50 PM
If it were a logical extension of my position, it would be ok...but that's the thing, it's not on either count.

I'm down with the notion that calling balls and strikes is not a democracy. But it's called baseball rather than umpire for a reason.It is indeed a logical extension to say "if a guy would do his job right, then he would not get criticized by others," which is the jest of what you are saying. Your position is that players, managers, fans, PA announcers, et al, have a right to criticize the umpire when he does not do his job correctly. Conversely, it would seem to be a "logical extension" that the umpire should have the right to criticize any of those folks when they make a mistake on their job.

Just because it doesn't "work that way" culturally doesn't mean its not logical.

RedlegJake
08-02-2012, 07:09 PM
I umpired home plate in a junior high game once. It was hot and the game dragged on. I made several calls that the visiting team gave me grief over - their fans anyway who had seated themselves right behind home plate. The southpaw pitching had a good curve but he wasn't getting it to break in the strikezone - it was breaking too early and missing low.
The coach finally started on me and when he came out of the dugout after a walk and started on me I told him very firmly if he didn't zip it and get back in the dugout he was gone. On ball and strike calls I didn't need to give him that much warning. He rushed me and I tossed him. No big deal. His other coaches grabbed him and the game went on. I even explained to the pitcher why he was missing when he politely asked me when he came to the plate to bat. He thanked me.
Anyway after the game a mother of the northside player (St. Joe has very distinct rivalries between northside, southside where I live, and central; both schools and geography)came up to me and quite curtly told me - "I could tell from the way you umpire you were born in the SOUTHEND!" She spit it at me like a curse word.
I never said a word. I just laughed to myself and wondered what she'd do if she knew what a fool she made of herself if she knew I was born and raised in Loveland, Ohio 600 miles away from southend Saint Joe?

jojo
08-02-2012, 07:26 PM
It is indeed a logical extension to say "if a guy would do his job right, then he would not get criticized by others," which is the jest of what you are saying. Your position is that players, managers, fans, PA announcers, et al, have a right to criticize the umpire when he does not do his job correctly. Conversely, it would seem to be a "logical extension" that the umpire should have the right to criticize any of those folks when they make a mistake on their job.

Just because it doesn't "work that way" culturally doesn't mean its not logical.

First I never argued a player could jeer an umpire. Your hypothetical falls flat to begin with but it also requires suspension of context. For instance, it's surprising to see it argued than an organist is the equivalent of someone playing in the game.

If an ump wanted to jeer a player, it's an obvious break from contextual mores. If an ump wanted to jeer an organist, it would be surreal and make the ump look boorish but who cares relative to the context of the game? Which really is the point...why does the ump give a rip about the organist? That he's so in tune to the fringe probably explains the missed call.

The ump is supposed to be an impartial arbiter of the rules so that the truly important people can focus solely on competition and results can be determined without prejudice.

I can't imagine any school of umpire philosophy where it would be considered an acceptable outcome to have an ump's actions discussed nationally because he chose to make a decision that made him the focus.

An organist played a nursery rhyme. What followed makes umps look silly.

Plus Plus
08-02-2012, 07:47 PM
First I never argued a player could jeer an umpire. Your hypothetical falls flat to begin with but it also requires suspension of context. For instance, it's surprising to see it argued than an organist is the equivalent of someone playing in the game.

If an ump wanted to jeer a player, it's an obvious break from contextual mores. If an ump wanted to jeer an organist, it would be surreal and make the ump look boorish but who cares relative to the context of the game? Which really is the point...why does the ump give a rip about the organist? That he's so in tune to the fringe probably explains the missed call.

The ump is supposed to be an impartial arbiter of the rules so that the truly important people can focus solely on competition and results can be determined without prejudice.

I can't imagine any school of umpire philosophy where it would be considered an acceptable outcome to have an ump's actions discussed nationally because he chose to make a decision that made him the focus.

An organist played a nursery rhyme. What followed makes umps look silly.

Well, I'm glad that nobody has ever played a nursery rhyme to thousands of people when I have messed up in the past.

This seems to parallel the discussions that occur when some demand that players cut their hair, stop going to bars, stop using twitter, or when someone calls for a drill sergeant type coach.

Professional baseball and professional umpiring are a job. I agree that some level of thickness-of-skin is required, but at the same time, nobody should have to work in a place where they are being harassed, regardless of how juvenile it might seem. However, expecting umpires to allow themselves to be the butt of any of a number of jokes because of an expected fan experience or something is just as ridiculous as expecting Edinson Volquez to suddenly not walk the entire universe because he so badly needs a haircut, or expecting a coach that screams at the top of his lungs all the time to motivate a team.

Judges hold people in contempt for less than nursery rhyme singing. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin as well?

Or maybe the problem isn't that an umpire needs thicker skin, but rather that the fan or PA announcer or coach or whoever needs to re-read The Berenstain Bears Forget Their Manners.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 07:55 PM
Are we really going to compare umpiring to police officers and judges? Geeze........

jojo
08-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Well, I'm glad that nobody has ever played a nursery rhyme to thousands of people when I have messed up in the past.

This seems to parallel the discussions that occur when some demand that players cut their hair, stop going to bars, stop using twitter, or when someone calls for a drill sergeant type coach.

Professional baseball and professional umpiring are a job. I agree that some level of thickness-of-skin is required, but at the same time, nobody should have to work in a place where they are being harassed, regardless of how juvenile it might seem. However, expecting umpires to allow themselves to be the butt of any of a number of jokes because of an expected fan experience or something is just as ridiculous as expecting Edinson Volquez to suddenly not walk the entire universe because he so badly needs a haircut, or expecting a coach that screams at the top of his lungs all the time to motivate a team.

Judges hold people in contempt for less than nursery rhyme singing. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin as well?

Or maybe the problem isn't that an umpire needs thicker skin, but rather that the fan or PA announcer or coach or whoever needs to re-read The Berenstain Bears Forget Their Manners.

An ump is the same thing as a judge? Again, no way jose....

An ump blew a call. An organist played a nursery rhyme. The ump made himself topic of national discussion. And this is in an environment where people dress up like sausages and race each other....

Not because he was the deciding opinion in a SCOTUS decision but because he was an ump that was too in tune to a tune during a random game.

If umps are arbiters of manners, does he get to run the chubby guy down the left field line who ate with his fingers, has ketchup stains on his shirt and belched between pitches?

WMR
08-02-2012, 08:24 PM
The ump should have acted like a big boy and ignored the music.

RedsBaron
08-02-2012, 08:40 PM
Judges hold people in contempt for less than nursery rhyme singing. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin as well?

Yeah I can just picture the start of a major league game.
The PA announcer intones "All rise." The fans then quietly stand up. The PA annoucer then states: "This baseball game is in session, The Honorable Umpire John Doe presiding. Hear ye, Hear ye, all players having pitches to throw and bats to swing, come forward and you will be allowed to play. God save major league baseball and this Honorable Ballpark. You may be seated."
The game then proceeds quietly. After a few innings a fan slips up and quietly exclaims "Let's go Reds"! Umpire Doe immediately fines the fan $100 and has the baliff take the fan from the ballpark.
Attendance should boom. ;)

dabvu2498
08-02-2012, 08:44 PM
I may be msitaken on this, but wasn't the Reds' announcement of the home plate umpires during pregame sponsored by Midwest Eye Center or Cincinnati Lasik or some other such business?

Or was that just the radio broadcasts?

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 08:49 PM
An ump is the same thing as a judge? Again, no way jose....

An ump blew a call. An organist played a nursery rhyme. The ump made himself topic of national discussion. And this is in an environment where people dress up like sausages and race each other....

Not because he was the deciding opinion in a SCOTUS decision but because he was an ump that was too in tune to a tune during a random game.

If umps are arbiters of manners, does he get to run the chubby guy down the left field line who ate with his fingers, has ketchup stains on his shirt and belched between pitches?

No, the actions of the organist made himself the topic of discussion. The umpire simply responded to the actions of organist. Umpires do not eject people, they eject themselves. This organist by his actions ejected himself.

It is real simple guys, whether it is a coach, player, organist, bat boy, scorekeeper or even a mascot. If you make insulting or derogatory comments to an umpire you will be ejected. You may think calling an umpire blind in a nursery ryhyme is not insulting and that is fine but keep it mind it is only your opinion. As I have said many times on the field to coaches that while they are entitled to their opinion unfortunately the only opinion that matters here is mine. Or in this instance with the organist, none of our opinions matter including my own and the only opinion that matters is the umpire that made the call. That is just the way it is guys.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 08:57 PM
Are we really going to compare umpiring to police officers and judges? Geeze........

Compared to your earlier post stating that because a persons name was not used then it is not an insult?? LOL

If I were to make the comment in one of your posts that "you are an idiot" but never addressed you by name that would be ok to you but if i was to say "Hebron Cougar is an idiot" then that is not ok?? LOL

Regardless of this tripe, whether a person addresses me as George, Blue, Ump or anything else, if they say something demeaning such as above then any umpire worth his grain in salt will ejected them. That is just the way it is.

jojo
08-02-2012, 09:00 PM
Every time something happens that draws attention to the umpire, the game is potentially cheapened.

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 09:01 PM
It was an overreaction. If a fan had yelled "you are blind", he wouldn't have said anything. Heck, I bet if a player in one of the dugouts had yelled it, he wouldn't have said anything the first time.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 09:04 PM
It was an overreaction. If a fan had yelled "you are blind", he wouldn't have said anything. Heck, I bet if a player in one of the dugouts had yelled it, he wouldn't have said anything the first time.

A fan can say whatever they want. They don't matter at the professional level anyway.

Your kididng yourself if you think players are allowed to tell an ump he is blind. That is a no brainer ejection.

jojo
08-02-2012, 09:05 PM
No, the actions of the organist made himself the topic of discussion. The umpire simply responded to the actions of organist. Umpires do not eject people, they eject themselves. This organist by his actions ejected himself.

No. The umpire made a decision that made everyone focus on the organist and by extension squarely on the umpire.

The ump made a choice not to ignore something that had nothing to do with actions on the field. He could have handled discreetly between innings. He could have ignored it all together.

He chose engage and display. It's that simple.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 09:21 PM
Every time something happens that draws attention to the umpire, the game is potentially cheapened.

That is an excellent point!!! There is no better example of drawing attention to an umpire than an organist playing something on the organ to mock him. Now let me answer your next response because I know what it will be. "Well George the umpires need to make the right calls ". My response to that is count the times that the umpire was right and the fans were wrong. It isnt even close,so hey lets have an organist draw attention to the ump and a bunch of misinformed fans to rile them up even though the vast majority of the time the fans are clueless.

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 09:27 PM
A fan can say whatever they want. They don't matter at the professional level anyway.

Your kididng yourself if you think players are allowed to tell an ump he is blind. That is a no brainer ejection.

I have seen and heard umpires called worse, to their faces, and not toss someone.

jojo
08-02-2012, 09:28 PM
That is an excellent point!!! There is no better example of drawing attention to an umpire than an organist playing something on the organ to mock him. Now let me answer your next response because I know what it will be. "Well George the umpires need to make the right calls ". My response to that is count the times that the umpire was right and the fans were wrong. It isnt even close,so hey lets have an organist draw attention to the ump and a bunch of misinformed fans to rile them up even though the vast majority of the time the fans are clueless.

Tht wasn't my next question. My next question is why does an ump get to absolve himself from responsibility for his decisions?

This one made a bad call then made the decision to make an even worse one. It's easy to forgive the first one but the second one was unnecessary and silly.

Plus Plus
08-02-2012, 09:34 PM
Yeah I can just picture the start of a major league game.
The PA announcer intones "All rise." The fans then quietly stand up. The PA annoucer then states: "This baseball game is in session, The Honorable Umpire John Doe presiding. Hear ye, Hear ye, all players having pitches to throw and bats to swing, come forward and you will be allowed to play. God save major league baseball and this Honorable Ballpark. You may be seated."
The game then proceeds quietly. After a few innings a fan slips up and quietly exclaims "Let's go Reds"! Umpire Doe immediately fines the fan $100 and has the baliff take the fan from the ballpark.
Attendance should boom. ;)

Or, you can picture this:

In a courtroom, evidence is presented. The judge rules in favor of the defense. The prosecution yells out "JUDGE, ARE YOU BLIND?" Someone on the prosecution pulls out a harmonica and plays "3 blind mice." That person ends up in jail, fined, or something of the like.

Or this, since using public authority figures to parallel baseball authority is not being received very well:

In a restaurant, someone orders a burger. The burger is ordered to be cooked medium, and the diner decides that the burger was cooked medium well. The diner yells out to the server, tells the server that he is blind and that the chef is blind, and pulls out his iphone to play "3 blind mice" on youtube. The diner would either be thrown out or would get some sort of "special" burger on the return.

I can't believe that the sophomoric actions of the PA announcer here are being ignored, and that the person being harassed while doing their job is being vilified.

thatcoolguy_22
08-02-2012, 09:44 PM
Judges hold people in contempt for less than nursery rhyme singing. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin as well?

[/I].

Holy Hyperbole, Batman! Now instead of the home plate umpire we can have the Honorable Umpire Quick. Line refs are bailiffs? Maybe we can walk through a metal detector and get patted down by security upon entering the stadium? Sit in silence as ball and strikes calls are handed down from above? ITS A BASEBALL GAME! The interaction with fans/umps/players/organists/whatever is apart of the draw. I'm an air traffic controller and someone playing something like 3 blind mice after I screw up is the least of my worries. Umpires are slowly becoming primadonnas. They are a part of, not the, game.

defender
08-02-2012, 09:46 PM
In most youth sports leagues, nobody is allowed to argue or say anything bad to or about the officials. No warning, instant ejection.

In pro sports, paying fans get away with most things short of throwing stuff on the field. The teams and their employees are held to a higher standard. playing the song is flagrant disrespect. Maybe the ump should have let it slide, but I don't have a problem with the ejection.

thatcoolguy_22
08-02-2012, 09:52 PM
I can't believe that the sophomoric actions of the PA announcer here are being ignored, and that the person being harassed while doing their job is being vilified.


He's being vilified because he dropped the largest weapon in his arsenal on an organist. There are other ways to handle the situation. He chose poorly.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 09:55 PM
Gents, this should put this little exercise in I am not sure what to rest.

b.Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules. Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties.
c.Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.
d.Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field. If an umpire disqualifies a player while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect until no further action is possible in that play.
e.Each umpire has authority at his discretion to eject from the playing field (1) any person whose duties permit his presence on the field, such as ground crew members, ushers, photographers, newsmen, broadcasting crew members, etc., and (2) any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/rules_interest.jsp

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 09:56 PM
I have seen and heard umpires called worse, to their faces, and not toss someone.

Not at the pro level.

Dom Heffner
08-02-2012, 09:57 PM
I kinda see both sides. For George, he deserves respect to do his job.

Ultimately if I had to choose aside, I think it's a bit overkill to eject the PA intern.

They aren't part of the game, they aren't inciting violence- in fact, it probably adds some comic relief and gives an outlet for folks to laugh about the situation.

Players, fans, and others do need to show respect for the umpire. I get that.

But honestly, umpires have issues too and it's rarely spoken about.

Remember the Brett Lawrie incident? See, that was the ump's doing. He got mad because on an obvious ball 4, the enitre world didn't hold its collective breath to hear him say what we all knew. Lawrie trots down to first before he could render his verdict, so he called it a strike. That's cheating. It's cheating like a spitball is cheating, it's cheating like pine tar use, it's cheating.

Then here comes another ball four, five feet off the plate, and he calls it a strike. All because Brett Lawrie can't think for himself. So the umpire cheats again. All so his little feelings aren't hurt, he gives an out that should not be rewarded.

Brett Lawrie shouldn't show the umpire up, right? But- how many times do you see an umpire give a very exaggerated called third strike call. Like, he's almost happy to do it. Is that not showing the batter up? Bang bang plays at first are the same. It's like watching a theater production.

OR, could umpires may be human and can't help but raise their emotions on certain plays, maybe like Brett Lawrie can't help walking down to first on an obvious ball four?

Nobody is there to watch the umpire, if we could replace them with machines we all would, so for me, they need to check the ego at the door, do your best to get the call right and not worry so much about what everybody else thinks.

jojo
08-02-2012, 10:10 PM
Gents, this should put this little exercise in I am not sure what to rest.

b.Each umpire is the representative of the league and of professional baseball, and is authorized and required to enforce all of these rules. Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules, and to enforce the prescribed penalties.
c.Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.
d.Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field. If an umpire disqualifies a player while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect until no further action is possible in that play.
e.Each umpire has authority at his discretion to eject from the playing field (1) any person whose duties permit his presence on the field, such as ground crew members, ushers, photographers, newsmen, broadcasting crew members, etc., and (2) any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/rules_interest.jsp

The issue isn't whether he could. It's whether he should.

traderumor
08-02-2012, 10:12 PM
First I never argued a player could jeer an umpire. Your hypothetical falls flat to begin with but it also requires suspension of context. For instance, it's surprising to see it argued than an organist is the equivalent of someone playing in the game.

If an ump wanted to jeer a player, it's an obvious break from contextual mores. If an ump wanted to jeer an organist, it would be surreal and make the ump look boorish but who cares relative to the context of the game? Which really is the point...why does the ump give a rip about the organist? That he's so in tune to the fringe probably explains the missed call.

The ump is supposed to be an impartial arbiter of the rules so that the truly important people can focus solely on competition and results can be determined without prejudice.

I can't imagine any school of umpire philosophy where it would be considered an acceptable outcome to have an ump's actions discussed nationally because he chose to make a decision that made him the focus.

An organist played a nursery rhyme. What followed makes umps look silly.You argued "not a logical extension," so it isn't necessary that you argued that specific argument. You implied that the critical commentary in the form of sarcasm was justified because the ump did not do his job properly. So I made the inference toward anyone involved having a right to criticize each other's job if they did not do it right. And I violated no logical rules in doing so. I made an application of the implied principal--fair game.

jojo
08-02-2012, 10:32 PM
You argued "not a logical extension," so it isn't necessary that you argued that specific argument. You implied that the critical commentary in the form of sarcasm was justified because the ump did not do his job properly. So I made the inference toward anyone involved having a right to criticize each other's job if they did not do it right. And I violated no logical rules in doing so. I made an application of the implied principal--fair game.

Not really because it's not a logical extension of an argument maintaining a music intern could play a nursery rhyme to suggest that also means an ump could mock a player.

That's like suggesting that since an organit can play an enthusiastic tune after a noteworthy play, an ump can therefore hug players.

You made an inference, but it wasn't a logical extension of the argument.

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 10:33 PM
I kinda see both sides. For George, he deserves respect to do his job.

Ultimately if I had to choose aside, I think it's a bit overkill to eject the PA intern.

They aren't part of the game, they aren't inciting violence- in fact, it probably adds some comic relief and gives an outlet for folks to laugh about the situation.

Players, fans, and others do need to show respect for the umpire. I get that.

But honestly, umpires have issues too and it's rarely spoken about.

Remember the Brett Lawrie incident? See, that was the ump's doing. He got mad because on an obvious ball 4, the enitre world didn't hold its collective breath to hear him say what we all knew. Lawrie trots down to first before he could render his verdict, so he called it a strike. That's cheating. It's cheating like a spitball is cheating, it's cheating like pine tar use, it's cheating.

Then here comes another ball four, five feet off the plate, and he calls it a strike. All because Brett Lawrie can't think for himself. So the umpire cheats again. All so his little feelings aren't hurt, he gives an out that should not be rewarded.

Brett Lawrie shouldn't show the umpire up, right? But- how many times do you see an umpire give a very exaggerated called third strike call. Like, he's almost happy to do it. Is that not showing the batter up? Bang bang plays at first are the same. It's like watching a theater production.

OR, could umpires may be human and can't help but raise their emotions on certain plays, maybe like Brett Lawrie can't help walking down to first on an obvious ball four?

Nobody is there to watch the umpire, if we could replace them with machines we all would, so for me, they need to check the ego at the door, do your best to get the call right and not worry so much about what everybody else thinks.

:thumbup:

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 10:34 PM
Not at the pro level.

Yes, I absolutely have.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 10:45 PM
.

Brett Lawrie shouldn't show the umpire up, right? But- how many times do you see an umpire give a very exaggerated called third strike call. Like, he's almost happy to do it. Is that not showing the batter up? Bang bang plays at first are the same. It's like watching a theater production.


.

It is called selling a call. In a close play as in a play at first you are taught to sell the call that you saw the play and there is no doubt in your mind you are 100% correct. The same goes with calling a third strike, just standing there and make a nonchalant third strike call does not sell the call to everyone that you saw the pitch and there is no doubt with anyone in your confidence of the call. It has zero to do with showing anyone up, in fact I have never ever heard that accusation before and I have heard alot.

George Anderson
08-02-2012, 10:47 PM
Yes, I absolutely have.

I dont doubt you but i am curious who and how did you hear it?

dougdirt
08-02-2012, 10:49 PM
I dont doubt you but i am curious who and how did you hear it?

Sitting in the scout seats at GABP, I can't recall who it was, but it was a Braves player in either 2009 or 2010.

traderumor
08-02-2012, 11:21 PM
Not really because it's not a logical extension of an argument maintaining a music intern could play a nursery rhyme to suggest that also means an ump could mock a player.

That's like suggesting that since an organit can play an enthusiastic tune after a noteworthy play, an ump can therefore hug players.

You made an inference, but it wasn't a logical extension of the argument.That was not your argument. I'll let the record stand, but it is amusing watching you formally defend your own shallow, snarky remark as if you had written a carefully worded treatise.

hebroncougar
08-02-2012, 11:23 PM
Compared to your earlier post stating that because a persons name was not used then it is not an insult?? LOL

If I were to make the comment in one of your posts that "you are an idiot" but never addressed you by name that would be ok to you but if i was to say "Hebron Cougar is an idiot" then that is not ok?? LOL

Regardless of this tripe, whether a person addresses me as George, Blue, Ump or anything else, if they say something demeaning such as above then any umpire worth his grain in salt will ejected them. That is just the way it is.

Whatever you say.............officer. Or your honor. (chest swells with pride)


That's just the way it is for umpires that want to be part of the show. I've seen a lot of umpires. From both sides of the game. The majority are great. And some are there to get some attention. Heck, I've seen some that I'm 100% sure have what I call "short man's disease". Some are out to prove they are great, and want to be part of the show with their antics, or balk calls, or showing up a player (like in the Lawrie case). Some are willing to admit mistakes (Jim Joyce comes to mind), and some aren't (Joe West comes to mind). It happens on every level. I gave every umpire the respect the position deserved (I was tossed once in a 9 year head coaching career, at my request). Most gave it back. Just like there are ways to act like a coach, there are ways to act like an umpire. Coaches or umpires should never be part of the show. It may have been within the rules for the organist to get tossed, but the umpire is making himself the butt of a bigger joke for doing it.

jojo
08-02-2012, 11:33 PM
That was not your argument. I'll let the record stand, but it is amusing watching you formally defend your own shallow, snarky remark as if you had written a carefully worded treatise.

I'm very happy to let the record speak.

The Ump was wrong.

Twice.

RedEye
08-02-2012, 11:57 PM
"Three Blind Mice" is just a bad song, regardless of the circumstances. I side with the ump.

RedsBaron
08-03-2012, 10:07 AM
"Three Blind Mice" is just a bad song, regardless of the circumstances. I side with the ump.

It worked okay in "Dr. No."

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 10:22 AM
That is an excellent point!!! There is no better example of drawing attention to an umpire than an organist playing something on the organ to mock him. .

I think before each game, the organist should hand the umpire his list of songs to played, much like the managers hand the umpire a lineup card.
When we have the umpire approving all music at the stadium, all messages on the Jumbotron, etc it will improve the game.

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 10:27 AM
In a restaurant, someone orders a burger. The burger is ordered to be cooked medium, and the diner decides that the burger was cooked medium well. The diner yells out to the server, tells the server that he is blind and that the chef is blind, and pulls out his iphone to play "3 blind mice" on youtube. The diner would either be thrown out or would get some sort of "special" burger on the return.
.

Not really.
Some cooks might sabotage the second burger (most would not)
But resturant people deal with jerks EVERY day. They have a think skin.
Lots of customers loose their temper. Some throw things. Things much more severe than "3 blind mice" happen and no customer ever gets tossed, because the resturant exists to serve the customer. Just like the game exists to entertain the fans (which is why the game should not be terminated over something silly)

Comparing a baseball game to a court of law really makes no sense.

RedsBaron
08-03-2012, 10:32 AM
Not really.
Comparing a baseball game to a court of law really makes no sense.

Maybe we should require umpires to wear black robes while they officiate. Even better let's require them to wear powdered wigs. ;)

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 10:33 AM
I think before each game, the organist should hand the umpire his list of songs to played, much like the managers hand the umpire a lineup card.
When we have the umpire approving all music at the stadium, all messages on the Jumbotron, etc it will improve the game.

Actually the umpire will let the organist know once the game starts if he approves of a song or not.

They have a way of doing that ya know.

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 10:47 AM
Actually the umpire will let the organist know once the game starts if he approves of a song or not.

They have a way of doing that ya know.

I think spending an hour before the game starts to make sure the umpire is not offended is more efficient.

hebroncougar
08-03-2012, 10:50 AM
I think before each game, the organist should hand the umpire his list of songs to played, much like the managers hand the umpire a lineup card.
When we have the umpire approving all music at the stadium, all messages on the Jumbotron, etc it will improve the game.

Really, hebroncougar thinks a better way to handle what happened (hebroncougar did see the video last night) would have been for the umpire to look up the box, and give the guy a no more sign. Or let the manager know, and he could have communicated it upstairs. Gets it done w/o making himself looking like a fool.

jojo
08-03-2012, 10:51 AM
I think before each game, the organist should hand the umpire his list of songs to played, much like the managers hand the umpire a lineup card.
When we have the umpire approving all music at the stadium, all messages on the Jumbotron, etc it will improve the game.

Truthfully the major flaw in umping is the subjective nature of human judgement and the influence of bias in decision making. There is no reason why the interpretation of the strike zone should change with every game for instance.

If the goal is to provide an impartial arbiter of the rules that is as accurate as possible, then MLB should work in earnest to develop a nonhuman system to officiate games.

hebroncougar
08-03-2012, 10:53 AM
Here's the video:

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/19706819/minor-league-umpire-ejects-pa-operator-for-playing-three-blind-mice

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 10:55 AM
I think spending an hour before the game starts to make sure the umpire is not offended is more efficient.

Actually an umpires time is valuable and instead of spending an hour reviewing songs, scoreboard material etc as you proposed it is much more time efficient to handle the situation as it arises and be done with it in a matter of minutes. Time efficiency is key here.

I really had no desire to prolong this thread because no ones views are going to change but it is to ironic that on WGN radio they just had the guy who was ejected on. Now get this, he was an unpaid intern who has actually been fined by the league for being ejected. Also he is no longer allowed in the pressbox during games. Please excuse any typos or mispelled words because I am typing one handed as I wipe tears from my eyes over this horrible injustice.

Plus Plus
08-03-2012, 10:57 AM
Not really.
Some cooks might sabotage the second burger (most would not)
But resturant people deal with jerks EVERY day. They have a think skin.
Lots of customers loose their temper. Some throw things. Things much more severe than "3 blind mice" happen and no customer ever gets tossed, because the resturant exists to serve the customer. Just like the game exists to entertain the fans (which is why the game should not be terminated over something silly)

Comparing a baseball game to a court of law really makes no sense.

I really think that I must not be stating my case very well. I was comparing the role of the judge (authority figure) to the role of the umpire (authority figure). Both are the respective kings of their castles. I thought that the police officer comparison was a fair one as well. I guess we differ here.

I guess this just must be a difference of opinion. I think that an umpire just becomes the easiest person on the field to criticize (regardless of sport) and that they always are kind of forced to play the villain- I mean, have we ever had a thread on RZ that was "[player] gets ejected for [doing something stupid], great job umpire!"? I would bet my bottom dollar that in the Reds' worst seasons, players were criticized

And for all the talk about how we should automate the strike zone and have computers decide balls and strikes, why not automate the players and have robots play the game? Why not just put MLB 2013 or whatever on the jumbotron and automate games?

The unchanging human element is what has made baseball into something that is so ingrained in history that almost everyone in America knows who Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson is, while bringing up Willie O'Ree, Nat Clifton or George Taliaferro will often get a confused look or a quick "who?" from the person you are talking to.

Like WOY said earlier in this thread:


Baseball has taken great strides in legitimizing the umpire throughout the years, a game needs a strong judge to make the game less of a farce than it can become when the authority is questioned by the folks involved in the presentation of the game.

Anyone who has studied the games history knows that this took a long time to take root (decades) and now it should be construed as a fabric of the game, from little league to major leagues.

And it isn't about umpires throwing out PA announcers- it is about umpires being able to direct the game that we are watching without it becoming trivialized and turning into Happy Gilmore or Baseketball before our very eyes.

jojo
08-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Here's the video:

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/19706819/minor-league-umpire-ejects-pa-operator-for-playing-three-blind-mice

That's pretty embarrassing. The ump needs earplugs.

Plus Plus
08-03-2012, 11:01 AM
That's pretty embarrassing. The ump needs earplugs.

I'd like to see what happened in the 2 minutes before that video started before deciding if it was more embarrassing for the umpire or the intern.

jojo
08-03-2012, 11:04 AM
I really think that I must not be stating my case very well. I was comparing the role of the judge (authority figure) to the role of the umpire (authority figure). Both are the respective kings of their castles. I thought that the police officer comparison was a fair one as well. I guess we differ here.

I guess this just must be a difference of opinion. I think that an umpire just becomes the easiest person on the field to criticize (regardless of sport) and that they always are kind of forced to play the villain- I mean, have we ever had a thread on RZ that was "[player] gets ejected for [doing something stupid], great job umpire!"? I would bet my bottom dollar that in the Reds' worst seasons, players were criticized

And for all the talk about how we should automate the strike zone and have computers decide balls and strikes, why not automate the players and have robots play the game? Why not just put MLB 2013 or whatever on the jumbotron and automate games?

The unchanging human element is what has made baseball into something that is so ingrained in history that almost everyone in America knows who Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson is, while bringing up Willie O'Ree, Nat Clifton or George Taliaferro will often get a confused look or a quick "who?" from the person you are talking to.

Like WOY said earlier in this thread:



And it isn't about umpires throwing out PA announcers- it is about umpires being able to direct the game that we are watching without it becoming trivialized and turning into Happy Gilmore or Baseketball before our very eyes.

When did the umpire become the guardian of baseball's cultural relevance? Call the game accurately and dont obstruct my view of the true focus-the game. And this is an opinion coming from a guy who doesn't go into game threads much anymore because it's often bellyaching about how the strike zone is callled etc.

WMR
08-03-2012, 11:14 AM
Actually an umpires time is valuable and instead of spending an hour reviewing songs, scoreboard material etc as you proposed it is much more time efficient to handle the situation as it arises and be done with it in a matter of minutes. Time efficiency is key here.

I really had no desire to prolong this thread because no ones views are going to change but it is to ironic that on WGN radio they just had the guy who was ejected on. Now get this, he was an unpaid intern who has actually been fined by the league for being ejected. Also he is no longer allowed in the pressbox during games. Please excuse any typos or mispelled words because I am typing one handed as I wipe tears from my eyes over this horrible injustice.

You think that happening to someone who isn't getting paid is funny? :rolleyes:

I hope that ump is proud of himself.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 11:28 AM
You think that happening to someone who isn't getting paid is funny? :rolleyes:

I hope that ump is proud of himself.

What I think it is funny is that people are overeacting to the umpire simply doing his job by following the rule book and treating this incident as if this intern was somehow executed as opposed to simply ejected.

The rule book does not state that all rules are void if the person commiting the offense is unpaid. The umpire is not going to first inquire if the person is being paid or not before he ejects someone.

The umpire should be very proud of himself. He followed the rules as he is paid to do so thus he deserves a pat on the back.

traderumor
08-03-2012, 11:50 AM
It is sad to see the number of folks who do not understand the disrespectful nature of the organist's action. There is a reason that Marty B. was severely reprimanded by the league when he went nuts the night Pete got into it with Dave Pallone. His actions caused fans to start throwing things onto the field. It is certainly forseeable that this organist's actions could have gotten the crowd worked up into a frenzy over a bad call as well. And we all know how ugly it can get at amateur events also when the crowd turns on the officials.

With that said, the umpire should have quietly gotten security and had the organist removed, just like he would if a fan was exhibiting severe unsportsmanlike behavior.

Finally, that so many folks see the organist's actions as not severe unsportsmanlike conduct is a sad commentary on the state of respect for authority in our culture.

gilpdawg
08-03-2012, 11:50 AM
And for all the talk about how we should automate the strike zone and have computers decide balls and strikes, why not automate the players and have robots play the game? Why not just put MLB 2013 or whatever on the jumbotron and automate games?

The unchanging human element is what has made baseball into something that is so ingrained in history
I never understood that line of thinking. Human element? The only humans I pay to see are the human players. Who gives a crap who is making the calls if they are right?

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 12:30 PM
It is called selling a call. In a close play as in a play at first you are taught to sell the call that you saw the play and there is no doubt in your mind you are 100% correct. The same goes with calling a third strike, just standing there and make a nonchalant third strike call does not sell the call to everyone that you saw the pitch and there is no doubt with anyone in your confidence of the call. It has zero to do with showing anyone up, in fact I have never ever heard that accusation before and I have heard alot.

Fair enough, great explanantion.

So, if the umpire is an emotionless element of the game- he doesn't get excited over a called third strike, he is merely selling the call so we all know for sure he believes what he is saying- then my advice would be to extend that emotionless into the Brett Lawrie situation and the organist and all the other stuff they do when their egos are bruised. it happens, you can't deny it.

And take those emotions out as well for the expanded strike zones for veteran pitchers. And the strange strike zones we see where a pitch is two feet outside but because he called it a strike earlier he has to do it all game.

We can agree to disagree. I think it's overboard to throw the organist out. I think you come off looking like the guy who throws a fit when his girlfriend gets hit on. You just look silly, even though you may be right.

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 12:32 PM
I never understood that line of thinking. Human element? The only humans I pay to see are the human players. Who gives a crap who is making the calls if they are right?

I've never heard one person ask, "who's calling balls and strikes tonight?"

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 12:39 PM
It is sad to see the number of folks who do not understand the disrespectful nature of the organist's action. There is a reason that Marty B. was severely reprimanded by the league when he went nuts the night Pete got into it with Dave Pallone. His actions caused fans to start throwing things onto the field. It is certainly forseeable that this organist's actions could have gotten the crowd worked up into a frenzy over a bad call as well. And we all know how ugly it can get at amateur events also when the crowd turns on the officials.

With that said, the umpire should have quietly gotten security and had the organist removed, just like he would if a fan was exhibiting severe unsportsmanlike behavior.

Finally, that so many folks see the organist's actions as not severe unsportsmanlike conduct is a sad commentary on the state of respect for authority in our culture.

The organist isn't Marty Brennaman. He doesn't speak words, he plays songs. The song wasn't Kill My Landlord, it was Three Blind Mice. Played on an organ, which is one step below the accordion on the list of unintimidating instruments.

Poking fun is not the same as being disrespectful, and for me, that's a pretty big distinction.

kaldaniels
08-03-2012, 12:41 PM
I've never heard one person ask, "who's calling balls and strikes tonight?"

Oh I do. Cause if the first name begins with "C." and ends with "B." I know it's gonna be a long night.

Yet I think I just helped your case....

kaldaniels
08-03-2012, 12:41 PM
I've never heard one person ask, "who's calling balls and strikes tonight?"

Oh I do. Cause if the first name begins with "C." and ends with "B." I know it's gonna be a long night.

Yet I think I just helped your case....

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 12:43 PM
Fair enough, great explanantion.

So, if the umpire is an emotionless element of the game- he doesn't get excited over a called third strike, he is merely selling the call so we all know for sure he believes what he is saying- then my advice would be to extend that emotionless into the Brett Lawrie situation and the organist and all the other stuff they do when their egos are bruised. it happens, you can't deny it.

.

I am not going to get into the Lawrie incident because it is going a little off topic but in short it had little to do with IMO the umpires ego instead of sending a message to all batters dont leave the box till the pitch is called. Or maybe the ump just missed the pitch, who knows? The whole umpires have huge egos thing is overplayed. Alot do have huge egos but I really don't think it plays into calling a game like so many people do.

Always Red
08-03-2012, 12:45 PM
The umpire is the man in the arena, the guy charged with doing the dirty work, the man who both sides, and the fans, think are against all of them. He is an arbiter, absolutely.

It's easy to throw stones unless you've done time as that man in the arena. Imperfect humans, of whom perfection is expected. The very best of them are supposedly working in MLB, and we all see, nearly daily, the mistakes that are made. And the emotions that are unleashed.

Armando Galarraga, and his quiet dignity, is a role model of mine. I learned so much from him that night and the next day, on how to deal with the unexpected and the unfair. :thumbup:

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 12:46 PM
Oh I do. Cause if the first name begins with "C." and ends with "B." I know it's gonna be a long night.

Yet I think I just helped your case....

Oh I won't begin to defend that blind dope.

westofyou
08-03-2012, 12:47 PM
I've never heard one person ask, "who's calling balls and strikes tonight?"

They're talking about it in the clubhouse I'll tell ya that

FlightRick
08-03-2012, 12:56 PM
The umpire should be very proud of himself. He followed the rules as he is paid to do so thus he deserves a pat on the back.

I've stayed out of this, despite my credentials a a one-time high school ump, because this seems to come down to a simple matter of what an ump CAN do (per the rules) versus what one SHOULD do (per the context).

That's a matter of opinion, and you ain't gonna change any minds.

But I think patting the guy on the back so he feels "proud" of what happened is taking things too far, and that reasonable people should be able to agree on that... there's a HUGE difference between (1) defending the ump's right to do what he did and (2) celebrating the fact that he did it. The former illustrates that this is a valid way to handle things, but the latter suggests it's the only way and that an ump should take pleasure in executing justice.

Hopefully one can see that the latter is an unseamly attitude for an umpire to have. It's the difference between being in charge (everybody loves take-charge types), and enjoying being in charge (nobody likes those kind of ay-holes). So let's just leave it as "this was well within the rules of baseball" and agree not to throw the dude a party for (essentially) taking a situation that could have been easily defused (and probably not even remembered by those AT THE GAME after a copule of day) and turned it into a national story where jerkwads like us are still discussing it days later.

10 out of 10 for following the rules, minus several million for rationality, decency, prioritization skills, and overall judgment. Actually, I'll amend that: only minues several hundred to the ump... but if true, the League Office gets minues several million for their utter boobery of making the situation EVEN DUMBER than it already was, by adding a fine and a banishment to the pile.



Rick

VR
08-03-2012, 12:58 PM
They're talking about it in the clubhouse I'll tell ya that

It's covered with the typical scouting reports.

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 12:59 PM
I am not going to get into the Lawrie incident because it is going a little off topic but in short it had little to do with IMO the umpires ego instead of sending a message to all batters dont leave the box till the pitch is called. Or maybe the ump just missed the pitch, who knows? The whole umpires have huge egos thing is overplayed. Alot do have huge egos but I really don't think it plays into calling a game like so many people do.

The incidents are unrelated, good point. I only brought it up to show that umpires demand respect, yet are perfectly fine with cheating to get it, which seems a bit contradictory or ironic, or just plain wrong.

It's cheating because the umpire is the judge of the rules, and the rules say what a strike is and isn't, and the judge goes around the rules based on a power that is not given to him by the rules (a ball can be called a strike if player doesn't respect you).

And to that you might say, well umpires are human and feel they need to be respected, and then I might say well so is the organist and Brett Lawrie.

If you are as good an umpire as you are a poster, I'm sure you are awesome, and none of this is directed at you.

And I'm sure umpires take a lot more beating than what we see on t.v.

I just think tossing the organist is a little overboard. All good discussion!

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 01:17 PM
The incidents are unrelated, good point. I only brought it up to show that umpires demand respect, yet are perfectly fine with cheating to get it, which seems a bit contradictory or ironic, or just plain wrong.

It's cheating because the umpire is the judge of the rules, and the rules say what a strike is and isn't, and the judge goes around the rules based on a power that is not given to him by the rules (a ball can be called a strike if player doesn't respect you).

And to that you might say, well umpires are human and feel they need to be respected, and then I might say well so is the organist and Brett Lawrie.

If you are as good an umpire as you are a poster, I'm sure you are awesome, and none of this is directed at you.

And I'm sure umpires take a lot more beating than what we see on t.v.

I just think tossing the organist is a little overboard. All good discussion!

I think the accusation the umpire is craving respect in the Lawrie incident is wrong. In fact the whole umpires do this and that because they crave respect is over blown.

Let me give you my perspective on how I handle a situation like the Lawrie incident. The key to calling balls and strikes is following the ball to the mitt. Then in a manner of 2-3 seconds you need to decide if the pitch is a ball or strike. If you have an instance where the batter drops the bat and runs to first before the pitch is even caught then it is factoring in my decision as to what to call the pitch. Now it is easy to say that what the batter does shouldn't affect my decision but we are humans and things the batter or even what the catcher does can affect our judgement. So If there is a borderline pitch that could go either way then if on the second or third time a team drops their bat before the pitch is called I am going to make sure to call it a strike. If that message still is not understood by the players or managers then those pitches are suddenly going to be called with a larger zone. Now you can sit back and claim I am cheating but lets look at what the batter is doing by also trying to cheat by attempting persuade the umpire to call a borderline pitch a ball. By sending a message to the batters whether you think it is cheating or not will keep the batters in the box and thus a more fair game will be called.

Thank you for the kind compiments btw.

dougdirt
08-03-2012, 01:38 PM
Then you are wrong George. A ball is a ball and a strike is a strike, no matter if the batter or catcher is trying to 'trick you' into calling it what they want.

You are cheating the game by trying to prevent cheating. What you don't realize, or don't care to see, is that they can only cheat if you let them. If you sit back there and do your job, regardless of what they do, they can't cheat.

RedsBaron
08-03-2012, 01:45 PM
Then you are wrong George. A ball is a ball and a strike is a strike, no matter if the batter or catcher is trying to 'trick you' into calling it what they want.

You are cheating the game by trying to prevent cheating. What you don't realize, or don't care to see, is that they can only cheat if you let them. If you sit back there and do your job, regardless of what they do, they can't cheat.

I agree.

The Voice of IH
08-03-2012, 01:49 PM
The sooner we get rid of ALL umpires and put sensors in the bags and allow electronics to call balls and strikes the better.

Umpires are useless in the college and professional ranks at this point.

westofyou
08-03-2012, 01:54 PM
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Mata ahoo Hima de
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Himitsu wo Shiri tai

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Truthfully the major flaw in umping is the subjective nature of human judgement and the influence of bias in decision making. There is no reason why the interpretation of the strike zone should change with every game for instance.

If the goal is to provide an impartial arbiter of the rules that is as accurate as possible, then MLB should work in earnest to develop a nonhuman system to officiate games.

I agree. The goal should be to get the games called as fairly as possible. Use the computer for balls and strikes.

In fact, I bet in the future, there will be debates such as 'Would Tom Glavine be a HOFer without human umpires giving him a generous strikezone in his later years? With a modern computer ump, he doesn't get those calls' etc

The part about getting the ump to pre-approve music was intended to be a joke, to illustrate a point. But the computer won't care what the PA announcer, DJ, etc say. That's a plus.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Then you are wrong George. A ball is a ball and a strike is a strike, no matter if the batter or catcher is trying to 'trick you' into calling it what they want.

You are cheating the game by trying to prevent cheating. What you don't realize, or don't care to see, is that they can only cheat if you let them. If you sit back there and do your job, regardless of what they do, they can't cheat.

I realize asking batters to stay an extra 2 seconds in the box waiting for a call to be made and asking the organist to not play songs mocking the ump are irrational, insane and unreasonable requests by some , but if you think about it, if these things were done voluntarily then there would be fewer problems in the game.

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Actually an umpires time is valuable and instead of spending an hour reviewing songs, scoreboard material etc as you proposed it is much more time efficient to handle the situation as it arises and be done with it in a matter of minutes. Time efficiency is key here.

I really had no desire to prolong this thread because no ones views are going to change but it is to ironic that on WGN radio they just had the guy who was ejected on. Now get this, he was an unpaid intern who has actually been fined by the league for being ejected. Also he is no longer allowed in the pressbox during games. Please excuse any typos or mispelled words because I am typing one handed as I wipe tears from my eyes over this horrible injustice.

But when a high school game is ended early due to a PA announcer, what about all the time wasted? The players, families, school, etc.. Isn't that valuable too?
The suggestion to have umps preapprove music was intended to be a joke, to illustrate how ludicrious it is for the umps to even have a say in the manner.

Yea, I am sure you were pleased the unpaid intern got fined and will probably never get another job in sports. That's umpire thinking.. part of the problem... Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.. Making the game all about the Mighty Umpl... Oh well, the intern is probably better off getting a career in another field anyhow. Hopefullly it's a blessing in disguise. I do hope the intern is smart enough to ignore the fine (what are they going to do him if he doesn't pay? lol)

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:10 PM
But when a high school game is ended early due to a PA announcer, what about all the time wasted? The players, families, school, etc.. Isn't that valuable too?
The suggestion to have umps preapprove music was intended to be a joke, to illustrate how ludicrious it is for the umps to even have a say in the manner.

Yea, I am sure you were pleased the unpaid intern got fined and will probably never get another job in sports. That's umpire thinking.. part of the problem... Killing a fly with a sledgehammer.. Making the game all about the Mighty Umpl... Oh well, the intern is probably better off getting a career in another field anyhow. Hopefullly it's a blessing in disguise. I do hope the intern is smart enough to ignore the fine (what are they going to do him if he doesn't pay? lol)

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 02:10 PM
And for all the talk about how we should automate the strike zone and have computers decide balls and strikes, why not automate the players and have robots play the game? Why not just put MLB 2013 or whatever on the jumbotron and automate games?


How many people come to the game to watch the umpire?
None. (well , maybe 3 people from Redsone :laugh: )
How many people come to watch the players play?
Just about everyone.

The umpire is a necessity. He should be invisible.
Also, he should also realize that part of the game, he is going to get blamed for stuff. If he's the authority figure, he should be more of a parent than a child, and not let trivial stuff bother him so much.

Fairchild was a child.. he wanted to pull a power play, so he made contact and escalated the dispute with Mes.. I argued the same thing when Brandon Phillips did it to Molinda... I am not just blindly saying the Reds are right.
I'd be upset if it happened to another team's player too.
The umps need to be held accountable for their abuse of power too.

hebroncougar
08-03-2012, 02:12 PM
I think the accusation the umpire is craving respect in the Lawrie incident is wrong. In fact the whole umpires do this and that because they crave respect is over blown.

Let me give you my perspective on how I handle a situation like the Lawrie incident. The key to calling balls and strikes is following the ball to the mitt. Then in a manner of 2-3 seconds you need to decide if the pitch is a ball or strike. If you have an instance where the batter drops the bat and runs to first before the pitch is even caught then it is factoring in my decision as to what to call the pitch. Now it is easy to say that what the batter does shouldn't affect my decision but we are humans and things the batter or even what the catcher does can affect our judgement. So If there is a borderline pitch that could go either way then if on the second or third time a team drops their bat before the pitch is called I am going to make sure to call it a strike. If that message still is not understood by the players or managers then those pitches are suddenly going to be called with a larger zone. Now you can sit back and claim I am cheating but lets look at what the batter is doing by also trying to cheat by attempting persuade the umpire to call a borderline pitch a ball. By sending a message to the batters whether you think it is cheating or not will keep the batters in the box and thus a more fair game will be called.

Thank you for the kind compiments btw.

So, by chance, did the game that you got to call a forfeit....was it an incident where it was the third time a batter left the box early, because they thought it was a ball, but you thought they were cheating, so you cheated back to call it a strike, to teach them a lesson about the sovereignty of umpires? Or if a catcher catches a strike, but he frames it, should it be called a ball, since in your mind, he's trying to influence the call? You see what I'm getting at? Umpires aren't above the game. You can not let anyone influence a call no matter what. Period.

dougdirt
08-03-2012, 02:13 PM
I realize asking batters to stay an extra 2 seconds in the box waiting for a call to be made and asking the organist to not play songs mocking the ump are irrational, insane and unreasonable requests by some , but if you think about it, if these things were done voluntarily then there would be fewer problems in the game.

And if umpires simply called the strikezone by the rule book there would be fewer problems in the game too. But they don't.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:17 PM
?
The suggestion to have umps preapprove music was intended to be a joke, to illustrate how ludicrious it is for the umps to even have a say in the manner.

)

Uh yeah I think that was pretty well understood by my response of me even considering to sit down and evaluate songs and scoreboard material.

The rule book states umpires have a say, take it up with whoever writes the rule book if you disagree.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:24 PM
And if umpires simply called the strikezone by the rule book there would be fewer problems in the game too. But they don't.

Agreed, however umpires are human and certain things players do can affect the way a pitch is called, so lets eliminate the things player do to try to unfairly affect the call.

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 02:24 PM
Iincident. The key to calling balls and strikes is following the ball to the mitt. Then in a manner of 2-3 seconds you need to decide if the pitch is a ball or strike. If you have an instance where the batter drops the bat and runs to first before the pitch is even caught then it is factoring in my decision as to what to call the pitch.

So you are admitting you aren't impartial.
You're letting the batter influence your ball and strike calls.
Wonderful. I'm glad you're not a MLB ump.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:29 PM
So, by chance, did the game that you got to call a forfeit....was it an incident where it was the third time a batter left the box early, because they thought it was a ball, but you thought they were cheating, so you cheated back to call it a strike, to teach them a lesson about the sovereignty of umpires? Or if a catcher catches a strike, but he frames it, should it be called a ball, since in your mind, he's trying to influence the call? You see what I'm getting at? Umpires aren't above the game. You can not let anyone influence a call no matter what. Period.

Sovereignty of umpiring??

Im am going to be blunt, you are so far off my point it is kinda pointless to respond.

REDREAD
08-03-2012, 02:32 PM
I realize asking batters to stay an extra 2 seconds in the box waiting for a call to be made and asking the organist to not play songs mocking the ump are irrational, insane and unreasonable requests by some , but if you think about it, if these things were done voluntarily then there would be fewer problems in the game.

This is the whole problem though.
From your eyes, the game is all about respecting the ump.
The whole game is about watching the ump give his judgement about every pitch, the actual game is secondary.
People come to the game to be entertained.. As someone said earlier.. playing "3 blind mice" is no worse than flashing the crybaby sign when the opposing manager argues a call.. It's no worse than showing the ghost "Walks will haunt" when the opposing pitcher gives up a walk, etc, etc.
God forbid they try to make the crowd have fun.
Does it bother the umps when the crowd stands up when Chapman pitches? Isn't that kind of cheating, trying to influence the ump's call? I mean, where does it end?

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:33 PM
So you are admitting you aren't impartial.
You're letting the batter influence your ball and strike calls.
Wonderful. I'm glad you're not a MLB ump.

Staying in the box till the pitch is called is understood at pretty much every level above little league. When I have the most trouble it is when I do the lower levels where coaches and players that don't understand.

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 02:36 PM
I realize asking batters to stay an extra 2 seconds in the box waiting for a call to be made and asking the organist to not play songs mocking the ump are irrational, insane and unreasonable requests by some , but if you think about it, if these things were done voluntarily then there would be fewer problems in the game.

First of all, thanks for giving us some insight into umpiring. I've always appreciated it. It brings a different aspect to things. Nice job.

If batters jumping out of the box hurts your ability, then by all means you are correct.

For Lawrie- and my memory may be failing- but the second ball four he just sat there and it seemed like the umpire was calling it a strike just to get him back.

I know it's one example, and it's unfair to sort of bring it in, but that's the kind of issue that is going to make folks just look at umpires and wish we had a machine. The calls either go way or another, so making it against someone for that gives a competitive advantage over hurt feelings. Maybe you are right and I'm not giving the ump the benefit of the doubt. Your perspective is certainly worth taking another look....

hebroncougar
08-03-2012, 02:37 PM
Sovereignty of umpiring??

Im am going to be blunt, you are so far off my point it is kinda pointless to respond.

Well, maybe I read it wrong. I hope you arent changing balls to strikes just to make a point. I would hope every umpire is above that. Anyway, good discussion.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

Dom Heffner
08-03-2012, 02:46 PM
Staying in the box till the pitch is called is understood at pretty much every level above little league. When I have the most trouble it is when I do the lower levels where coaches and players that don't understand.

We are turning into an impatient society lol....we want the call now!

The only argument I make for machines or sensors or video is that we sort of take out all these unwritten rules and chivalry and we simply get the call.

By making a human being the unquestionable authroity and final word, we get all this other stuff, which I just don't care about.

I truly enjoy listening to Orel Hershisher, and he's terrific about explaining the ways of umpiring and pitching. But learning about all these different strike zones and rules is interesting but can't somebody just call a baseball game?

I don't want it to be more than that.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 02:50 PM
Well, maybe I read it wrong. I hope you arent changing balls to strikes just to make a point. I would hope every umpire is above that. Anyway, good discussion.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

Myself and 99% of the umpires in our association will call a borderline pitch or not so borderline pitch a strike if the batters are continuously leaving the box before the call is made. Like I said earlier at most levels above LL it is understood so it doesn't really happen that often. However I have done it numerous times and will continue to do so if I feel the batter is trying to gain an unfair edge.

This is my last comment on the Lawrie incident btw.

jojo
08-03-2012, 03:01 PM
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Mata ahoo Hima de
Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto
Himitsu wo Shiri tai

I'm not sure why we have to bring the Germans into this.....

jojo
08-03-2012, 03:02 PM
I realize asking batters to stay an extra 2 seconds in the box waiting for a call to be made and asking the organist to not play songs mocking the ump are irrational, insane and unreasonable requests by some , but if you think about it, if these things were done voluntarily then there would be fewer problems in the game.

Voto must be the rudest Canadian in history.

CySeymour
08-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Myself and 99% of the umpires in our association will call a borderline pitch or not so borderline pitch a strike if the batters are continuously leaving the box before the call is made. Like I said earlier at most levels above LL it is understood so it doesn't really happen that often. However I have done it numerous times and will continue to do so if I feel the batter is trying to gain an unfair edge.

With all due respect, and I have actually sided with you in most of this thread, this is wrong.

A pitch is either a strike or it isn't.

kaldaniels
08-03-2012, 03:19 PM
With all due respect, and I have actually sided with you in most of this thread, this is wrong.

A pitch is either a strike or it isn't.

Agreed.

But...batters should be aware of the environment they are in. Fairly or not, it would be wise for a batter to wait on the call if they know prematurely running to first could net them a strike, albeit for the wrong reasons. Not a big pet peeve of mine, but it just makes sense to me.

WMR
08-03-2012, 03:26 PM
What I think it is funny is that people are overeacting to the umpire simply doing his job by following the rule book and treating this incident as if this intern was somehow executed as opposed to simply ejected.

The rule book does not state that all rules are void if the person commiting the offense is unpaid. The umpire is not going to first inquire if the person is being paid or not before he ejects someone.

The umpire should be very proud of himself. He followed the rules as he is paid to do so thus he deserves a pat on the back.

It's unfortunate that so many umpires and officials have a similarly arrogant approach to their proper role in sports. Umps should be like wallpaper, not attention *****s trying to get noticed or be the center of attention.

jojo
08-03-2012, 03:31 PM
Agreed.

But...batters should be aware of the environment they are in. Fairly or not, it would be wise for a batter to wait on the call if they know prematurely running to first could net them a strike, albeit for the wrong reasons. Not a big pet peeve of mine, but it just makes sense to me.

Hitting is hard enough and a player needs to focus on enough already. Obviously a hitter has to know what the arbitrary strike zone looks like on a given day, but why should a batter have to worry about the umpire too?

Frankly if a borderline pitch has been called a ball several times then suddenly it's a strike regardless of the reason, the ump has failed.

But this notion that an ump has the latitude to arbitrarily make an incorrect call just doesn't jive and it is certainly incompatible with the parallels some have made between umps, judges, and police officers.

George Anderson
08-03-2012, 03:36 PM
Agreed.

But...batters should be aware of the environment they are in. Fairly or not, it would be wise for a batter to wait on the call if they know prematurely running to first could net them a strike, albeit for the wrong reasons. Not a big pet peeve of mine, but it just makes sense to me.

Good point!!

Just like don't have the people upstairs play songs or put things on the scoreboard insulting towards the umpire.

It is alot to ask I know but life would be so much easier if it just happened.

kaldaniels
08-03-2012, 03:39 PM
Hitting is hard enough and a player needs to focus on enough already. Obviously a hitter has to know what the arbitrary strike zone looks like on a given day, but why should a batter have to worry about the umpire too?

Frankly if a borderline pitch has been called a ball several times then suddenly it's a strike regardless of the reason, the ump has failed.

But this notion that an ump has the latitude to arbitrarily make an incorrect call just doesn't jive and it is certainly incompatible with the parallels some have made between umps, judges, and police officers.

And that is all fine and I agree.

But as of the present day, nothing is changing. So it would be wise if batters waited for the call. If they don't , that's their prerogative, but it might cost them a strike.