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RedEye
08-03-2012, 12:35 AM
All jinxes aside, I've been following the Reds now for some 25 years, and the past two weeks or so have been absolutely unprecedented to me. I'm actually starting to think that something big is under construction here - and that given long-term prospects, Walt et al. were much better off standing pat at the deadline.

Been having conversations with my fellow diehards about where this team ranks. Obviously 1990 holds all the cards with a World Series ring. Other than that, though, I think this group is pretty darn solid. 1995? 1999? 2010? I think I would rank the 2012 Reds ahead of all of them, both in terms of talent and - clearly - in terms of sheer W-L record in early August.

So what are your thoughts? Is this the best-est Reds team of "our" lifetime? If not, where do they rank? And what would they have to do to convince you?

Tom Servo
08-03-2012, 12:40 AM
Of my lifetime, I think so. I think they're better than the 2010 team. That said, I'm 22 and I originally grew up a Yankees fan in the 90s so what do I really know.

oregonred
08-03-2012, 12:46 AM
All I know is we are now at four calendar weeks in the dog days of summer and we've had three Reds losses during that stretch. Don't think I ever remember a 20-3 run of Reds baseball in my Reds fandom lifetime... The 1990 start of 34-12 was something special, but this has been unreal given the loss of Votto for the last 2.5 weeks.

VR
08-03-2012, 12:52 AM
All I know is we are now at four calendar weeks in the dog days of summer and we've had three Reds losses during that stretch. Don't think I ever remember a 20-3 run of Reds baseball in my Reds fandom lifetime... The 1990 start of 34-12 was something special, but this has been unreal given the loss of Votto for the last 2.5 weeks.

Great point.....and to think for 10 years this franchise completely devalued pitching and defense in favor of the 'chicks dig the long ball' approach.

oregonred
08-03-2012, 12:58 AM
Yep, I still remember the 1990 run of 34-12 quickly becoming 34-20 (after attending a double header loss for the 8th straight defeat).

So consider me a lifelong paranoid Reds fan as success seems to be fleeting. Enjoy this run because history says it happens about once every 20 years.

Honorable mention in modern times, the '95 and '99 teams had some really strong 2nd half runs to get 25+ games over .500.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2012, 01:02 AM
This is a good team. Even without Votto, Frazier and the much maligned Ludwick have been the keys. Not Bruce, who is supposed to be the hero, but a rookie and a journayman. Phillips at second, the rookie, miscast as a lead off hitter, at shortstop, and the steady veteran at third, who still has it, maybe notas much as before, but his professionalism changed a team from a loser to a winner. Add to that Ludwick, a resurgent Stubbs, who is faster than a Shelby GT 500 and a great defender. Follow it up with starters who have more quality starts than I can count, a bullpen who though shaky at times, is probably the best in the business, and you get the 2012 Reds.

There will be a bad streak, there always is, but the truth is, after following this team for 50 years, I've never had more "oh my gosh" moments than this year. If we continue to build a lead, and that means winning the Purates series this weekend, we're going to be OK. The best? I have no idea. Those things are determined with the final result, but so far, this team has all the attributes. No one can hold a candle to the 75-76 Reds, but so far so good.

RedsManRick
08-03-2012, 01:27 AM
I simply cannot process this team's record right now. I can't help but think we're playing way over our heads. And yet, nobody other than Frazier (and perhaps Ludwick and Cueto) has been crazy out of line with reasonable expectation.

It's amazing what happens when you don't have any massive black holes on the roster.

RedlegJake
08-03-2012, 01:31 AM
The starting pitching has to hold up and even get better, Joey and BP have to come back and Ryan keep hitting. Do that and this team can win it all. I believe that. They are a long shot maybe but I think it's within their capabilities. I also think they'll get better each of the next few years if they handle the team right and don't have any terrible luck with injuries etc.

reds44
08-03-2012, 02:05 AM
Cueto and Latos. Those two will determine how far we can go in October, IMO.

fearofpopvol1
08-03-2012, 04:04 AM
I feel comfortable saying this team is better than the 2010 team now. The pitching is just simply better and there are fewer holes. The 2010 team had an unsung hero in Scott Rolen. The 2012 team has a couple in Ludwick and Frazier.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to say this team is better than 1999 yet, but they may well be.

I really think the Reds could go tow to tow with anyone in the NL, especially with the firm claims that Strasburg will be shutdown. But the Giants still scare me, if the Reds were to face them in the playoffs. I think they would by far be the toughest opponent for the Reds in the NL.

If the Reds are going to go on a losing streak, let's just hope it's not against the Cards or Pirates.

GoReds
08-03-2012, 06:50 AM
I really don't like Kevin Millar and his freakin' Cardinals bias, but he is right that the Reds do not have a reliable pitcher behind Cueto and Latos. Although I don't share Millar's fantasy in having the Cards beat out the Reds for the division title, this Reds team looks like it is built more for the regular season, not the postseason.

WildcatFan
08-03-2012, 10:24 AM
This is a good team. Even without Votto, Frazier and the much maligned Ludwick have been the keys. Not Bruce, who is supposed to be the hero, but a rookie and a journayman. Phillips at second, the rookie, miscast as a lead off hitter, at shortstop, and the steady veteran at third, who still has it, maybe notas much as before, but his professionalism changed a team from a loser to a winner. Add to that Ludwick, a resurgent Stubbs, who is faster than a Shelby GT 500 and a great defender. Follow it up with starters who have more quality starts than I can count, a bullpen who though shaky at times, is probably the best in the business, and you get the 2012 Reds.

There will be a bad streak, there always is, but the truth is, after following this team for 50 years, I've never had more "oh my gosh" moments than this year. If we continue to build a lead, and that means winning the Purates series this weekend, we're going to be OK. The best? I have no idea. Those things are determined with the final result, but so far, this team has all the attributes. No one can hold a candle to the 75-76 Reds, but so far so good.

Love this post. Love Shelby GTs ('66 350 is WildcatFan's poison).

cincrazy
08-03-2012, 10:28 AM
This team has the righty power bat in Ludwick that it didn't have in 2010 after Rolen dropped off. This team has a suitable replacement for Rolen at third, which 2010 didn't have. This team has a better bullpen than the 2010 team, and a much better rotation. The starters of games 1 and 2 in the NLDS that year were Volquez and Arroyo. Yikes. The 2012 team is inferior in baserunning to the 2010 team, but that's the only thing I can think of where they don't exceed the 2010 team's capabilities.

Also, was Bryan Price around in 2010? I think so, but can't quite remember.

Tom Servo
08-03-2012, 10:28 AM
I really don't like Kevin Millar and his freakin' Cardinals bias, but he is right that the Reds do not have a reliable pitcher behind Cueto and Latos. Although I don't share Millar's fantasy in having the Cards beat out the Reds for the division title, this Reds team looks like it is built more for the regular season, not the postseason.
Arroyo, Bailey, and Leake have pitched well for us this season. Can't just turn on them because of the Padres series. Pitchers, even the good ones, will periodically get lit up; look at CJ Wilson's stat line from last night.

Benihana
08-03-2012, 10:41 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97370&highlight=perspective

oregonred
08-03-2012, 10:44 AM
The 2012 team is inferior in baserunning to the 2010 team, but that's the only thing I can think of where they don't exceed the 2010 team's capabilities.



This team is inferior to most little league teams on the basepaths and also with sacrifice bunting. Another of the deficiencies that seem to be overcome on the magical 2012 team with pitching, pitching, good luck, defense and more pitching.

IMO, this is a much better team than the 2010 version. Agree Latos and Bailey are the keys the rest of the way.

SunDeck
08-03-2012, 04:40 PM
Cueto and Latos. Those two will determine how far we can go in October, IMO.

I think it's Bailey and Leake, myself.

RedEye
08-04-2012, 10:53 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97370&highlight=perspective

Apologies, Beni. I thought I was sort of asking a broader question, but I suppose that's up for debate. :)

Strikes Out Looking
08-04-2012, 11:02 AM
This team is good enough to go fairly far in the playoffs as long as the bullpen holds up, the starters pitch the same as they have the rest of the season, Votto and BP stay healthy during the playoffs, and the rookies (Cozart, Frazier, Mez) don't turn into pumpkins.

I'm also thinking that the 2010 experience, as short as it was for the Reds, will help them this time around.

Scrap Irony
08-04-2012, 11:58 AM
2012 Votto > 1999 Casey
2012 Phillips > 1999 Reese
2012 Bruce > 1999 Tucker
2012 Ludwick > 1999 Vaughn
2012 Stubbs < 1999 Cameron
2012 Rolen < 1999 A. Boone
2012 Cozart < 1999 Larkin
2012 Haniraco < 2010 Taubensee/ Johnson

2012 Frazier > 1999 D. Young
2012 Valdez < 1999 Lewis
2012 Heisey < 1999 Hammonds
2012 Cairo< Stynes

2012 Cueto > 1999 Guzman
2012 Arroyo = 1999 Villone
2012 Bailey = 1999 Neagle
2012 Latos < 1999 Harnisch
2012 Leake = 1999 Tomko

2012 Chapman > 1999 Graves
2012 Marshall > 1999 Reyes
2012 Broxton < 1999 Williamson
2012 Ondrusek < 1999 Sullivan
2012 Simon > 1999 Belinda
2012 LeCure > 1999 White

PickOff
08-04-2012, 12:55 PM
2012 Votto > 1999 Casey
2012 Phillips > 1999 Reese
2012 Bruce > 1999 Tucker
2012 Ludwick > 1999 Vaughn
2012 Stubbs < 1999 Cameron
2012 Rolen < 1999 A. Boone
2012 Cozart < 1999 Larkin
2012 Haniraco < 2010 Taubensee/ Johnson

2012 Frazier > 1999 D. Young
2012 Valdez < 1999 Lewis
2012 Heisey < 1999 Hammonds
2012 Cairo< Stynes

2012 Cueto > 1999 Guzman
2012 Arroyo = 1999 Villone
2012 Bailey = 1999 Neagle
2012 Latos < 1999 Harnisch
2012 Leake = 1999 Tomko

2012 Chapman > 1999 Graves
2012 Marshall > 1999 Reyes
2012 Broxton < 1999 Williamson
2012 Ondrusek < 1999 Sullivan
2012 Simon > 1999 Belinda
2012 LeCure > 1999 White

Agreed, except Ludwick over Vaughn? Vaughn struck fear into pitchers, Ludwick not so much. I would also equal Frazier with Young. This is the best Red team since 1990 for me and the pitching is the reason why.

Nasty_Boy
08-04-2012, 01:18 PM
I agree with most of those assessments but I'm not on board with Ludwick over Vaughn either. I know that HRs and RBIs are not the stats that Redszone likes to use but Vaughn hit 45 bombs and drove in around 120. That's pretty tough for Ludwick to overcome even factoring in his platoon role.

puca
08-04-2012, 02:37 PM
They are not as good as they are playing. But good starting pitching and great defense and bullpen can carry you a long ways in the regular season.

I think this team will probably still struggle against great starting pitching (fortunately we haven't seen any since Votto went down), which is why I'm not overly optimistic about this team making noise in the playoffs.

cincrazy
08-04-2012, 02:59 PM
They are not as good as they are playing. But good starting pitching and great defense and bullpen can carry you a long ways in the regular season.

I think this team will probably still struggle against great starting pitching (fortunately we haven't seen any since Votto went down), which is why I'm not overly optimistic about this team making noise in the playoffs.

The way I see it is this: The Braves don't have great starting pitching. The Nats do, but their offense will have just as much trouble hitting our pitching. The Giants have Cain, who we've had success against, a floundering Lincecum, and Bumgarner, who is very good, but not unhittable, especially as a lefty. And the Dodgers really only have Kershaw. None of those teams scare me.

Now if we reach the World Series, and play the Angels... yeah, that starting staff worries me a bit.

Scrap Irony
08-04-2012, 03:06 PM
Agreed, except Ludwick over Vaughn? Vaughn struck fear into pitchers, Ludwick not so much. I would also equal Frazier with Young. This is the best Red team since 1990 for me and the pitching is the reason why.

Strictly according to ERA+ and OPS+. According to BaseballReference.com

Were they my picks, Vaughn would have the advantage over Ludwick, but Latos would trump Harnisch, Leake over Tomko, and Arroyo over Villone.

mth123
08-04-2012, 04:08 PM
Mostly agree. I like Hanigan and Mesoraco better than Taubensee.and Johnson. As a catcher, Taubensee would have made a great DH.