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View Full Version : Latos challenging for the #1 rotation spot?



webbbj
08-04-2012, 12:29 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/27610/latos-shows-why-hes-reds-true-ace

article on ESPN saying it could be possible. Id say <1% but Latos has been the best starter last 8 starts.

Nice to have that kind of top end pitching going into augist and september.

RedsFanInBama
08-04-2012, 12:37 PM
If I'm evaluating our pitching staff, I have to consider what they've done all season. Cueto has had a couple bumps lately, but he's been amazingly consistent all season. When Latos is pitching his best, I think he is better than Cueto. But we've only seen flashes of that this year. We haven't seen enough consistency to put him above Cueto IMO. I do feel great about our those two guys right now, though.

Pony Boy
08-04-2012, 12:39 PM
I would really like to see a 6 man rotation for the rest of the way. Cueto and Bailey really need to miss a start or 2. We should have added another starter at the deadline.

Tadasimha
08-04-2012, 12:39 PM
Could see in a couple of season the Reds having basically two #1 starters in Cueto and Latos.

RedsFanInBama
08-04-2012, 12:43 PM
I would really like to see a 6 man rotation for the rest of the way. Cueto and Bailey really need to miss a start or 2. We should have added another starter at the deadline.

Another starter was the thing we needed least at the deadline. If we need a sixth starter, we have a couple of options in AAA. They're not great, but you're really only talking a spot start here or there. A true 6-man rotation should not happen. These guys have a routine that they are accustomed to. No reason to disrupt it, especially with us still in the middle of a pennant race.

arkimadee
08-04-2012, 12:46 PM
I still trust Cueto more. That being said I think we are all seeing Latos for what he is and that is an excellent end of the year pitcher.

Stray
08-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Cueto takes the ball in game 1, no question. It'd be nice if Latos keeps it rolling and we send out our other ace in game 2 though.

drowg14
08-04-2012, 01:14 PM
For this season, and probably next season, Cueto is this teams best pitcher. But Latos has the most talent, and I fully expect him to be a legit ace in a couple years.

Maker_84
08-04-2012, 01:20 PM
For this season, and probably next season, Cueto is this teams best pitcher. But Latos has the most talent, and I fully expect him to be a legit ace in a couple years.

Agreed Cueto has been reliable but when Latos is on he's better due to having more ability

btmreds
08-04-2012, 03:16 PM
I still think Cueto is the clear cut #1 guy. You still never know what Latos is going to give you every game and Cueto is about as consistent as they come. It's hard to argue with a 2.52 ERA.

OGB
08-04-2012, 03:47 PM
There are so many little parts of Cueto's game that I love that give him an edge over most pitchers.

He might be the best in baseball at picking runners off.

He might be the hardest to steal on in baseball.

He might be the best bunter amongst pitchers in baseball.

And on top of all that, the guy hustles down the line every time he puts the ball in play.

rgslone
08-04-2012, 04:45 PM
Latos has certainly been good - and seems to be getting better. But Cueto is the #1 for a reason. At a young age, Cueto is quickly becoming one the better guys in the game in the "art of pitching". When you have Cueto's stuff (which is very good) and are able to combine that with a great pitching acumen, you are a true Ace. Guys who pitch as smartly as Cueto don't usually have his stuff. Cueto could strikeout a lot more than he does - and when he needs a strikeout he can usually get it - but instead his approach is to keep his pitch count low and conserve energy (which is why he can throw 96mph late in the game when he wants). I think being around Cueto is good for Latos. I believe that he will get even better and more consistent if he pays attention and adopts more of Cueto's approach.

drowg14
08-04-2012, 05:01 PM
Latos has certainly been good - and seems to be getting better. But Cueto is the #1 for a reason. At a young age, Cueto is quickly becoming one the better guys in the game in the "art of pitching". When you have Cueto's stuff (which is very good) and are able to combine that with a great pitching acumen, you are a true Ace. Guys who pitch as smartly as Cueto don't usually have his stuff. Cueto could strikeout a lot more than he does - and when he needs a strikeout he can usually get it - but instead his approach is to keep his pitch count low and conserve energy (which is why he can throw 96mph late in the game when he wants). I think being around Cueto is good for Latos. I believe that he will get even better and more consistent if he pays attention and adopts more of Cueto's approach.

Cueto is far from a true ace. Part of being a true ace is durability year in and year out, while maintaining elite numbers for several years. Cueto's 2010, while good, doesn't fall within the elite range. And Cueto's 2011 numbers, while great, were the result of pitching only 156 innings.

If Cueto can get his innings this year up to at least 185 again (200 would be a better indication), while maintaining this type of performance, and then repeats again next year, that is when we consider calling Cueto a "true ace" IMO.

PTjvs
08-04-2012, 05:06 PM
Cueto is far from a true ace. Part of being a true ace is durability year in and year out, while maintaining elite numbers for several years. Cueto's 2010, while good, doesn't fall within the elite range. And Cueto's 2011 numbers, while great, were the result of pitching only 156 innings.

If Cueto can get his innings this year up to at least 185 again (200 would be a better indication), while maintaining this type of performance, and then repeats again next year, that is when we consider calling Cueto a "true ace" IMO.

So, by this set of criteria, you are saying there are currently no true aces in the NL?

drowg14
08-04-2012, 05:14 PM
So, by this set of criteria, you are saying there are currently no true aces in the NL?

You mean like Verlander, Kershaw, Halladay, Felix, Sabathia, Lee, and Greinke? And arguements to be made for Cain, Hamels and Weaver? Other pitchers I would say are on their way would be Strasburg, Price and Bumgarner.

The term "Ace" is overused. Not every team has an "ace." At any given time there are usually only 10-15 ELITE pitchers in the game.

rgslone
08-04-2012, 05:48 PM
You mean like Verlander, Kershaw, Halladay, Felix, Sabathia, Lee, and Greinke? And arguements to be made for Cain, Hamels and Weaver? Other pitchers I would say are on their way would be Strasburg, Price and Bumgarner.

The term "Ace" is overused. Not every team has an "ace." At any given time there are usually only 10-15 ELITE pitchers in the game.

Grass is always greener on the other side, right? As for me, I'm fine with Cueto as out "Ace" for this year, next year and the year after. You keep pining for Lee, Greinke, and all those other "superior" pitchers on other teams, because Cueto is obviously never going to be able to do enough for you.

PTjvs
08-04-2012, 05:50 PM
You mean like Verlander, Kershaw, Halladay, Felix, Sabathia, Lee, and Greinke? And arguements to be made for Cain, Hamels and Weaver? Other pitchers I would say are on their way would be Strasburg, Price and Bumgarner.

The term "Ace" is overused. Not every team has an "ace." At any given time there are usually only 10-15 ELITE pitchers in the game.

Your standard was several years of uninjured performance better than Cueto's 2010. Verlander, Felix and Sabathia are in the AL. Halladay has been both hurt and is having a worse year than Cueto's 2010 THIS year. Greinke only pitched 171 innings LAST year., and had a worse 2010 than Cueto. Cliff Lee THIS year has not been better than Cueto.

Your standards for what constitutes an "ace" are not being very evenly applied here.

drowg14
08-04-2012, 06:26 PM
I'll give you Greinke might not have been the best choice. Lee is not having as bad of a year as his numbers suggest. He still has a strong K rate, as well as FIP and XFIP.

What does AL vs NL have to do with who is an Ace?

And, when was I pining? Or say that Cueto wasn't enough? I was making a comment on the term "ace" not saying I didn't like Cueto, or that he wasn't good enough. I am perfectly happy with our staff this year, with Latos and Cueto at the top. At no point this season I have I said taht I wanted the Reds to go strong after acquiring Lee or Greinke. The cost to acquire them would not be worth it.

EDIT: Just noticed your one post was about NL, not MLB. But the general point still stands.

BluegrassRedleg
08-04-2012, 06:35 PM
Cueto takes the ball in game 1, no question. It'd be nice if Latos keeps it rolling and we send out our other ace in game 2 though.

^ This.

jback76
08-04-2012, 07:14 PM
The Wild card teams could sure benefit from 2 number 1 starters. They'll need it for the one game playoff. Hopefully the Reds are not included in this. That is going to be a stressful game to be in.

RedsFanInBama
08-04-2012, 07:22 PM
Cueto is far from a true ace. Part of being a true ace is durability year in and year out, while maintaining elite numbers for several years. Cueto's 2010, while good, doesn't fall within the elite range. And Cueto's 2011 numbers, while great, were the result of pitching only 156 innings.

If Cueto can get his innings this year up to at least 185 again (200 would be a better indication), while maintaining this type of performance, and then repeats again next year, that is when we consider calling Cueto a "true ace" IMO.

How do you know his 2011 numbers were the result of pitching 156 innings? Seems like an assumption to me. I'd say his numbers are a result of him throwing the ball very well.

Mr.Redleg82
08-04-2012, 07:32 PM
How do you know his 2011 numbers were the result of pitching 156 innings? Seems like an assumption to me. I'd say his numbers are a result of him throwing the ball very well.

I think he just means simple stats, the bigger the sample size the closer you are to the population mean.

RedsFanInBama
08-04-2012, 07:36 PM
I think he just means simple stats, the bigger the sample size the closer you are to the population mean.

I'll readily admit I'm not a statistician. It just sounded like he was saying that had Cueto made six more starts last season, his numbers would have almost certainly gotten worse.

Mr.Redleg82
08-04-2012, 07:40 PM
I'll readily admit I'm not a statistician. It just sounded like he was saying that had Cueto made six more starts last season, his numbers would have almost certainly gotten worse.

They could have, but they also could have gotten better. I'm not a statistician either, all I was trying to say is the more he pitches the more we'll know who the real Cueto is. An "Ace" or a #2,3...,

RedsFanInBama
08-04-2012, 07:42 PM
Yeah, I see how it could be read that way now. I didn't read it that way initially.

New York Red
08-04-2012, 08:31 PM
Cueto has the lowest ERA in all of baseball over the past couple years. He is without question the ace of this pitching rotation. I love how Latos is coming along though. Especially considering he's only 24.

The Rage
08-04-2012, 11:42 PM
Tell me when Latos gets consistant. His first 3 starts after the ASB were bleh.

Mr.Redleg82
08-05-2012, 01:16 AM
Tell me when Latos gets consistant. His first 3 starts after the ASB were bleh.

You should look at those stats again, I don't know what you're expecting. He's kept us in ALMOST every game he's pitched

The Rage
08-05-2012, 02:26 AM
You should look at those stats again, I don't know what you're expecting. He's kept us in ALMOST every game he's pitched

Going 5 innings does not impress, especially against the Astros. The Cards, ok, I can forget that one, but the freaking Astros? He also got rocked in a start as well.

Mr.Redleg82
08-05-2012, 02:38 AM
The reason he only goes five is because of his high pitch counts. Now being an ace/consistent should mean he has better control, I'll grant you that. The only team he's given up more than 2 runs to after the all star break is Arizona, who is hot right now. He's been very effective lately while he's in the ballgame.

Cicero2.0
08-05-2012, 03:17 AM
My only complaint with Latos is pitch count. When he attacks the strike zone like he did last night he is almost unbeatable.

Mr.Redleg82
08-05-2012, 03:24 AM
My only complaint with Latos is pitch count. When he attacks the strike zone like he did last night he is almost unbeatable.

You said it man...