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Vottomatic
08-07-2012, 08:47 AM
Who do you think will sign him?
What kind of contract....years/amount?

Doubtful the Reds will even be players, but do you think they might?

Vottomatic
08-07-2012, 08:59 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hamiljo03.shtml

Just realized he'll turn 32 next May. Yikes. I think that will be a factor.

Wouldn't surprise me to see some team do a short in length/high in dollars type contract for him. 2 yrs/$40M?$50M

mattfeet
08-07-2012, 09:07 AM
I wouldn't touch Hamilton at this point in his career. Dude can carry a team by himself when he's on fire, but also can hit .180 over 2 months and create rifts in the clubhouse. Pass. That money can (and hopefully will) be spent a lot better elsewhere.

-Matt

RedsManRick
08-07-2012, 09:18 AM
I think he'll get something like 2/50 with an option from somebody.

UKFlounder
08-07-2012, 09:21 AM
Hasn't Texas offered him (or maybe just discussed) a 4 year contract with him, but he turned it down as he wanted more?

Of course, that does not mean he will get more, but it might be another situation that does not get resolved soon - maybe kind of like Fielder last year?

The Operator
08-07-2012, 10:03 AM
He'll have to realize there won't be many teams willing to lock into a long term commitment with him. That's the price you pay for being a recovering addict - it sucks, but it is what it is.

I know there's no chance but I'd love The Reds to at least kick the tires on him. Could you imagine Hamilton in the middle of this lineup? Yikes. I'd have to think he also still has a soft spot for the team who gave him a chance to resurrect his career when no one else would. Ya never know...

OesterPoster
08-07-2012, 10:04 AM
Probably the Dodgers. They seem to be able to suddenly print money. Hope it's not the Cardinals.

Chip R
08-07-2012, 10:18 AM
He'll have to realize there won't be many teams willing to lock into a long term commitment with him. That's the price you pay for being a recovering addict - it sucks, but it is what it is.

You would think not but there are several teams out there flush with TV money that might want to make a big splash. A team like the Mets might want to make a big splash and overpay a guy like Hamilton - not necessarily in money but in years.

Personally, I think he's going to stay with TEX. Money doesn't seem to be a problem with them and they can always use him as a DH if he is unable to play in the field because of injuries.

WildcatFan
08-07-2012, 10:35 AM
Hope it's not the Cardinals.

As do I, but they've got quite a load coming off the books after this year:

Kyle Lohse
Lance Berkman
Brian Fuentes
Jake Westbrook (Has a 2013 option)
Adam Wainwright (Has a 2013 option)

That's $46.5 million worth of contracts.

medford
08-07-2012, 10:41 AM
I'm gonna guess he winds up with the nationals. After shutting down their star pitcher early this year (assuming they hold true to their word) despite being in 1st place, there will be some added pressure to come big. Washington is relatively close to his hometown in North Carolina (I think that's where he's from if I remember correctly, though I have no idea how many ties he still has to his hometown)

Sea Ray
08-07-2012, 10:42 AM
I think he'll get something like 2/50 with an option from somebody.

MLB teams don't have that sort of restraint. Where'd you get the idea that they do? He'll get many more years than 2

oneupper
08-07-2012, 11:07 AM
He'll get at least 5/100 with a sixth year option, probably from the same team that gave 7 years to Jason Werth.
Or from the team that gave 7 years to Carl Crawford.

REDREAD
08-07-2012, 11:28 AM
He'll get at least 5/100 with a sixth year option, probably from the same team that gave 7 years to Jason Werth.
Or from the team that gave 7 years to Carl Crawford.

I tend to agree.. although in all honesty, it makes more sense to blow that kind of money on someone like Hamilton with MVP potential than someone like Werth/Crawford. Someone is going to give him a monster contract, no doubt.

That last Padres TV deal has me thinking.. I wonder if 20 million/year players are going to be considered cheap in the future? It wasn't long ago that Marge created an uproar among owners for making Eric Davis the highest paid player at <gasp> 3 million/year. lol (Not a comment on Marge, but 3 million/year used to be considered exhorbitant).. Also, I think the Reds were one of the first teams to have a known bench player make over 1 million/year when they traded for Glen Braggs, intending to use him as a 4th OF.. I remember people saying.. OMG.. how can they pay 1 million/year for a bench player :)
Times have changed.. I expect if all the clubs get a boatload of TV money, salaries are going to escalate again.

LegallyMinded
08-07-2012, 11:29 AM
The list of free agent outfielders for 2013 doesn't seem too inspiring at this point. Michael Bourn seems like the best option, given that at 30 he's younger than many other free agents on the market and has turned in very consistent production (four straight years of 4+ war, according to fangraphs), but after that, it seems like a steep drop off.

I'll be interested to see whether Hamilton or Shane Victorino gets a bigger deal. They're the same age, at 32, and both come with big question marks, given Victorino's drop in power and Hamilton's (1) recent lack of production and (2) comments about being mentally out of sorts. Victorino has turned in more consistent performances over the last few years, but Hamilton obviously has more upside and potential for a monster season. As a team considering an offer to one of them, I'd say it comes down to whether you want to play it (relatively) safe with Victorino, or gamble and see if you can get Hamilton to agree to a relatively short-term contract.

Also, I do agree with some of the above posters that Hamilton will likely get offered a long term deal, but I wonder if he'd actually prefer a short-term contract to try to rebuild his value in light of his recent struggles.

hebroncougar
08-07-2012, 11:33 AM
The list of free agent outfielders for 2013 doesn't seem too inspiring at this point. Michael Bourn seems like the best option, given that at 30 he's younger than many other free agents on the market and has turned in very consistent production (four straight years of 4+ war, according to fangraphs), but after that, it seems like a steep drop off.

I'll be interested to see whether Hamilton or Shane Victorino gets a bigger deal. They're the same age, at 32, and both come with big question marks, given Victorino's drop in power and Hamilton's (1) recent lack of production and (2) comments about being mentally out of sorts. Victorino has turned in more consistent performances over the last few years, but Hamilton obviously has more upside and potential for a monster season. As a team considering an offer to one of them, I'd say it comes down to whether you want to play it (relatively) safe with Victorino, or gamble and see if you can get Hamilton to agree to a relatively short-term contract.

Also, I do agree with some of the above posters that Hamilton will likely get offered a long term deal, but I wonder if he'd actually prefer a short-term contract to try to rebuild his value in light of his recent struggles.


Oh, Victorino's deal will pale in comparison to Hamilton. You see what teams thought of him at the trade deadline.

oneupper
08-07-2012, 11:45 AM
Also, I do agree with some of the above posters that Hamilton will likely get offered a long term deal, but I wonder if he'd actually prefer a short-term contract to try to rebuild his value in light of his recent struggles.

Interesting point, but at this point, with his history (addiction AND injuries), if someone offers him 100 mm or more (reasonable length), he'd be foolish NOT to take it.

cumberlandreds
08-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Interesting point, but at this point, with his history (addiction AND injuries), if someone offers him 100 mm or more (reasonable length), he'd be foolish NOT to take it.

That's exactly right. I know I wouldn't touch him with his age and his history of drug problems. That was a big reason I was never that unhappy that Reds traded him. Just a huge risk for anyone to take on. But someone will.

Tommyjohn25
08-07-2012, 02:38 PM
Anyone else see him flipping out on both his 1st and 3rd base coaches a few nights back? Strange.

Sea Ray
08-07-2012, 02:42 PM
I tend to agree.. although in all honesty, it makes more sense to blow that kind of money on someone like Hamilton with MVP potential than someone like Werth/Crawford. Someone is going to give him a monster contract, no doubt.

That last Padres TV deal has me thinking.. I wonder if 20 million/year players are going to be considered cheap in the future? It wasn't long ago that Marge created an uproar among owners for making Eric Davis the highest paid player at <gasp> 3 million/year. lol (Not a comment on Marge, but 3 million/year used to be considered exhorbitant).. Also, I think the Reds were one of the first teams to have a known bench player make over 1 million/year when they traded for Glen Braggs, intending to use him as a 4th OF.. I remember people saying.. OMG.. how can they pay 1 million/year for a bench player :)
Times have changed.. I expect if all the clubs get a boatload of TV money, salaries are going to escalate again.

Back then the Reds along with the Oakland A's were among the leaders of MLB in team payroll. Don't count on those days ever coming back

Sea Ray
08-07-2012, 02:44 PM
I wonder if the M's go after him? They've seen first hand what kind of player he is and they have the $$ to spare. I do think Hamilton would be foolish to sign on for playing half his games in that ballpark though

cumberlandreds
08-07-2012, 05:03 PM
Anyone else see him flipping out on both his 1st and 3rd base coaches a few nights back? Strange.

I saw it. It was strange. I heard on some telecast,maybe MLB Network,him and his wife are on the outs. If they divorce he is going to lose a big chunk of that support system he has. That could be a really big red flag on him.

RedsManRick
08-07-2012, 05:09 PM
MLB teams don't have that sort of restraint. Where'd you get the idea that they do? He'll get many more years than 2

We'll see. I don't think he'll get the $/year he wants in a longer term deal. I could see his agents suggesting that he could either take a 4 or 5 year deal now that may very well be his last or he could take a bigger per annum 2 year deal now and still get a 4 or 5 year deal two years from now.

I certainly wouldn't bet on any specific outcome here; just a hunch.

Sea Ray
08-07-2012, 05:11 PM
We'll see. I don't think he'll get the $/year he wants in a longer term deal. I could see his agents suggesting that he could either take a 4 or 5 year deal now that may very well be his last or he could take a bigger per annum 2 year deal now and still get a 4 or 5 year deal two years from now.

I certainly wouldn't bet on any specific outcome here; just a hunch.

He's not going to wait on any long term deal. There's no better time than now for him to get that. I'm thinking a 5 yr deal minimum

AtomicDumpling
08-07-2012, 06:38 PM
I will take a shot and predict 7 years and $150 million. It only takes one team that feels he is worth it to make it happen.

Matt700wlw
08-07-2012, 07:00 PM
I saw it. It was strange. I heard on some telecast,maybe MLB Network,him and his wife are on the outs. If they divorce he is going to lose a big chunk of that support system he has. That could be a really big red flag on him.

That definitely wouldn't be good...

cincrazy
08-07-2012, 09:09 PM
I wouldn't touch Hamilton with a 10 foot pole at this point. The mistake wasn't in trading Hamilton. Volquez just didn't work out. Not a bad risk by the Reds IMO, although it can certainly be argued they could've targeted a better package.

Hamilton is a huuuuuuuge risk, performance wise and off the field wise. A team would be CRAZY to give him 100 million over the life of a contract, but it's probably going to happen.

mattfeet
08-07-2012, 10:17 PM
Oh, Victorino's deal will pale in comparison to Hamilton. You see what teams thought of him at the trade deadline.

I think Victorino's AAV will undoubtedly be lower than Hamilton's, but it will far surpass Hamilton's next contract in years. At this point in Shane's career, I think that carries more weight.

-Matt

Chip R
08-07-2012, 10:24 PM
I will take a shot and predict 7 years and $150 million. It only takes one team that feels he is worth it to make it happen.

That sounds about right. He'll get his money. It's just a matter of how long teams are willing to sign him for.

Vottomatic
08-07-2012, 11:45 PM
I saw it. It was strange. I heard on some telecast,maybe MLB Network,him and his wife are on the outs. If they divorce he is going to lose a big chunk of that support system he has. That could be a really big red flag on him.

That makes me sad. I wanted to see him beat his problem.

But I was okay with the Reds trading him because I wasn't confident he would beat it.

And with the news from your post, it looks like a case can be made that if he divorces, and support system weakens, that he might weaken. Definitely sends up a caution flag and means the jury is still out on him relapsing.

Tornon
08-08-2012, 12:08 AM
I heard that the thing with his wife was just speculation networks threw out there after he said there was a problem but he didn't specify what it was. I think the whole reason he admitted his tobacco issue was so people would stop thinking things were going poorly with his wife

Edit - This from his player profile on Yahoo: Hamilton admitted that the non-physical issue he has been dealing with the past two months has been a battle to stop his use of smokeless tobacco, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reports. Hamilton was forced to address the issue after speculation began to run wild that his marriage was in jeopardy after he made some cryptic comments late last week. Hamilton drove in four runs Thursday but collected just one hit and struck out twice Friday. Perhaps the revelation will allow Hamilton some peace of mind, but he's still going to have problems at the plate if he continues to chase pitches well out of the strike zone.
(Rotowire.com)

fearofpopvol1
08-08-2012, 12:42 AM
Dare I say, but if his slide continues for the rest of the season, that is going to have a large impact. If he finishes strong, I am sure he'll get between $100-150M.

Ghosts of 1990
08-08-2012, 01:48 PM
I wouldn't touch Hamilton with a 10 foot pole at this point. The mistake wasn't in trading Hamilton. Volquez just didn't work out. Not a bad risk by the Reds IMO, although it can certainly be argued they could've targeted a better package.

Hamilton is a huuuuuuuge risk, performance wise and off the field wise. A team would be CRAZY to give him 100 million over the life of a contract, but it's probably going to happen.

Hamilton has a WAR of 20 since the start of 2008 when he departed from Cincinnati. By comparison, Joey Votto has had a WAR of 25.2 since then. Jay Bruce has a WAR of 8.9 since then.

It was a huge mistake trading him. The first three years of that deal were extremely affordable.

Reds jumped the gun AND Volquez didn't work out.

RedsManRick
08-08-2012, 01:53 PM
Hamilton has a WAR of 20 since the start of 2008 when he departed from Cincinnati. By comparison, Joey Votto has had a WAR of 25.2 since then. Jay Bruce has a WAR of 8.9 since then.

It was a huge mistake trading him. The first three years of that deal were extremely affordable.

Reds jumped the gun AND Volquez didn't work out.

I don't know if it's fair to say they jumped the gun. Rather, they figured that if they had a wildcard with a lot of upside to play with, they'd rather it be a pitcher than a hitter (to say nothing about the clubhouse dynamic issues).

Obviously it didn't work out. From an outcomes standpoint, it was clearly a mistake. But given the state of pitching in our organization, it's hard to fault the thought process that led to the decision to trade him.

reds44
08-08-2012, 01:56 PM
I don't see any way somebody hands Hamilton 7/150. I'll be surprised if he gets 5/100.

cincrazy
08-08-2012, 02:01 PM
Hamilton has a WAR of 20 since the start of 2008 when he departed from Cincinnati. By comparison, Joey Votto has had a WAR of 25.2 since then. Jay Bruce has a WAR of 8.9 since then.

It was a huge mistake trading him. The first three years of that deal were extremely affordable.

Reds jumped the gun AND Volquez didn't work out.

But they were going to have to trade him at some point. Like I said, my argument isn't "they should've have traded Hamilton." They should've. Now, maybe they should've waited longer. In hindsight, yeah, you can say that. But at the time, with an injury-plagued player with a history of drug problems not being that far in the past, why wait in trading him? Plus he was a clubhouse problem, which has been well-documented.

Edd Roush
08-09-2012, 11:41 AM
I don't know if it's fair to say they jumped the gun. Rather, they figured that if they had a wildcard with a lot of upside to play with, they'd rather it be a pitcher than a hitter (to say nothing about the clubhouse dynamic issues).

Obviously it didn't work out. From an outcomes standpoint, it was clearly a mistake. But given the state of pitching in our organization, it's hard to fault the thought process that led to the decision to trade him.

Great way of putting it. I don't know if I could have stated it any better.

Vottomatic
08-09-2012, 12:38 PM
I don't know if it's fair to say they jumped the gun. Rather, they figured that if they had a wildcard with a lot of upside to play with, they'd rather it be a pitcher than a hitter (to say nothing about the clubhouse dynamic issues).

Obviously it didn't work out. From an outcomes standpoint, it was clearly a mistake. But given the state of pitching in our organization, it's hard to fault the thought process that led to the decision to trade him.

I was fine with the trade at the time for the reasons you stated.

I wouldn't mind having him back though. :thumbup:

Unassisted
09-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Josh Hamilton still has an addictive personality (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120924/SPT0401/309240090/Optometrist-Caffeine-caused-Hamilton-s-issues?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CSports%7Cs) .



ARLINGTON, Texas — Rangers outfielder and former Cincinnati Red Josh Hamilton was back in the lineup Monday night for the opener of a four-game series against Oakland after being diagnosed with a cornea problem caused by caffeine that he described as a sugar high "times 10."

Hamilton, who had missed five straight games, saw an optometrist Monday and was diagnosed with ocular keratitis, a drying of the cornea caused by too much caffeine and energy drinks.

"Drinking caffeine, coffee in the morning, coffee midday, Energy drink before the game, chocolate after the game. All these things were compounding and making it worse and worse," he said.

Chip R
09-25-2012, 09:06 AM
Josh Hamilton still has an addictive personality (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120924/SPT0401/309240090/Optometrist-Caffeine-caused-Hamilton-s-issues?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CSports%7Cs) .

Looks like he picked the wrong week to start drinking caffiene.

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsB/2065-354.jpg

Vottomatic
09-25-2012, 12:04 PM
Looks like he picked the wrong week to start drinking caffiene.

http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsB/2065-354.jpg

:thumbup: :beerme: :laugh:

That might be the winner of the funniest comeback post of the year.

mbgrayson
09-25-2012, 02:58 PM
I think Hamilton could get a very nice long term contract, if he agreed to a clause that allowed the team to terminate the contract in the event he relapses and begins using street drugs or alcohol again.

I know the Players Union doesn't like clauses that cancel contract in the event of an injury. However, this type of clause would only kick in if Hamilton himself decided to use intoxicants again. Given the regular testing regiman that MLB already has him on, the contract could simply state that the team's obligation to pay him is contingent upon him remaining elegible to play MLB (although that wouldn't cover alcohol use).

These type of contractual clauses may be percieved to reduce the risk level of signing Josh to a longer term deal.

westofyou
09-25-2012, 03:07 PM
I think Hamilton could get a very nice long term contract, if he agreed to a clause that allowed the team to terminate the contract in the event he relapses and begins using street drugs or alcohol again.

I know the Players Union doesn't like clauses that cancel contract in the event of an injury. However, this type of clause would only kick in if Hamilton himself decided to use intoxicants again. Given the regular testing regiman that MLB already has him on, the contract could simply state that the team's obligation to pay him is contingent upon him remaining elegible to play MLB (although that wouldn't cover alcohol use).

These type of contractual clauses may be percieved to reduce the risk level of signing Josh to a longer term deal.

There will be no clause, the PU won't open a door for a single player to gain extra years at the expense of the future and all the players who would be affected by a precedent being set.

Hamilton will make money, but like any other player that will be limited by his health and age as well as his skills

PuffyPig
09-25-2012, 04:04 PM
Hamilton will go for too much money and too many years.

Only a large market team can accept the kind of risk Hamilton possesses.

There has always been a theory that his body will break down sooner than most due to excessive drug usuage.

He's a collasal risk period.

If I had the dough a 2-year $40-50M contract might be OK.

Wonderful Monds
09-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Hamilton will go for too much money and too many years.

Only a large market team can accept the kind of risk Hamilton possesses.

There has always been a theory that his body will break down sooner than most due to excessive drug usuage.

He's a collasal risk period.

If I had the dough a 2-year $40-50M contract might be OK.

It's already happening. Guy is missing whole series with sinus infections.

AtomicDumpling
09-25-2012, 07:38 PM
I think Hamilton could get a very nice long term contract, if he agreed to a clause that allowed the team to terminate the contract in the event he relapses and begins using street drugs or alcohol again.

I know the Players Union doesn't like clauses that cancel contract in the event of an injury. However, this type of clause would only kick in if Hamilton himself decided to use intoxicants again. Given the regular testing regiman that MLB already has him on, the contract could simply state that the team's obligation to pay him is contingent upon him remaining elegible to play MLB (although that wouldn't cover alcohol use).

These type of contractual clauses may be percieved to reduce the risk level of signing Josh to a longer term deal.

The situation you describe essentially exists already. The contract is not terminated, but the player doesn't get paid.

If Hamilton (or any other player) fails a drug test and gets suspended he would not get paid while he is suspended. This mitigates a lot of the risk for the team. If he is not eligible to play the team does not have to pay him. This applies to drugs of abuse as well as PEDs. Once his suspension is completed he would return to the team and be allowed to play and get paid.

Melky Cabrera is not getting paid during his suspension.

westofyou
10-06-2012, 11:55 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/josh-hamilton-s-likely-farewell-to-rangers-ends-with-trail-of-boos.html;_ylt=AhZ_9aAYFM5SB8yIoWNVtNURvLYF;_ylu=X 3oDMTN1Y2p1anZzBG1pdANGRUFUVVJFRCBNZWdhdHJvbiBNTEI EcGtnA2YwNjVmMWJmLTRjYWQtM2Q5NC04MTdiLTU4Yzk0YmE4N 2M1MARwb3MDMgRzZWMDbWVnYXRyb24EdmVyAzE4NmJhZjIzLTB mYWYtMTFlMi1iZmY1LTJlNWE0ZjE3M2Q3Mg--;_ylg=X3oDMTFoODgyNmttBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANtbGIEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3




He was the face of the Texas Rangers' collapse over the last two weeks, a period in which they blew home-field advantage in the American League, a five-game lead in the AL West and found themselves in a one-game, win-or-go-home playoff against the Baltimore Orioles. And when they didn't show up for that, either, getting embarrassed 5-1 in front of a stunned Rangers Ballpark, it cemented Hamilton's slow devolution from hero to pariah.

Hard as he tried not to dwell on the boos, he couldn't help but bring them up over and over. Five years he's been here, one of the planet's best players when he's healthy and biggest teases when he isn't, and this was how he was leaving. Hamilton is a free agent, and while he said his return is a 50-50 proposition, his tenor and disappointment and dwelling said something entirely different.

And so did the verse of scripture he paraphrased, Matthew 10:14.

"If they don't receive you in a town," Hamilton said, "shake the dust off your feet and move to the next."

kaldaniels
10-06-2012, 06:43 PM
This is just me talking to the guys at the bar so take it as you will...

But something seems off about Hamilton and I am concerned for him.

mth123
10-06-2012, 07:53 PM
This is just me talking to the guys at the bar so take it as you will...

But something seems off about Hamilton and I am concerned for him.

Agreed. I wasn't going to post anything and be the only one, but since you bring it up...

Chip R
10-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Scathing column on Josh Hamilton from ESPNDallas.com

http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/8466953/texas-rangers-josh-hamilton-poster-boy-collapse

Tom Servo
10-07-2012, 12:52 PM
Scathing column on Josh Hamilton from ESPNDallas.com

http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/8466953/texas-rangers-josh-hamilton-poster-boy-collapse
Embarrassing that people get paid to write 'Guy sitting around bar half-watching the game' observational garbage like this.

Big Klu
10-07-2012, 04:21 PM
Wow. I know people around here say that Cincinnati fans turn on their best players, but I've never seen an article that vitriolic about Eric Davis, Adam Dunn, or Ken Griffey Jr.

KoryMac5
10-07-2012, 04:25 PM
Judging from the swings I saw he looks more hurt than fallen off the wagon. Either way not what you wanted to have happen in your walk yr especially when you're asking for 20 million per yr.

BearcatShane
10-07-2012, 04:27 PM
I thought the article was very well written. And accurate.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 04:42 PM
I thought the article was very well written. And accurate.

Frankly, any story that starts off on the premise that fans should boo their own players is a pretty bad article from the get-go.

Kc61
10-07-2012, 05:27 PM
I did not care for this article. This young man has come back from deep problems and generally performed superbly in Texas. If he faded, or he's hurt, or he slumped, or whatever, then let him move on, gracefully.

KoryMac5
10-07-2012, 05:56 PM
I did not care for this article. This young man has come back from deep problems and generally performed superbly in Texas. If he faded, or he's hurt, or he slumped, or whatever, then let him move on, gracefully.

That's not the way bad break ups usually work though. Seems to me there might be a lot of behind the scene stuff we are not privy to.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 06:00 PM
That's not the way bad break ups usually work though. Seems to me there might be a lot of behind the scene stuff we are not privy to.

That hasn't stopped fans and media criticizing him without any knowledge of what might be going on.

Kc61
10-07-2012, 06:04 PM
That's not the way bad break ups usually work though. Seems to me there might be a lot of behind the scene stuff we are not privy to.

Isn't a marriage. It's a baseball player who helped get the team to two World Series.

If it's time for the guy to leave, then say it, but I didn't appreciate the tone of this article.

KoryMac5
10-07-2012, 06:20 PM
That hasn't stopped fans and media criticizing him without any knowledge of what might be going on.

It comes with the territory doesn't it? Stars get all of the credit or get all of the blame. Hamilton was not the player down the stretch that he was earlier in the yr. Fair or not fair much like a star Quaterback he is going to take the heat for this meltdown. I have no problem with him getting booed and I find it hard to feel bad for a guy that is going to be making 15-20 million dollars a season.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 06:29 PM
It comes with the territory doesn't it? Stars get all of the credit or get all of the blame. Hamilton was not the player down the stretch that he was earlier in the yr. Fair or not fair much like a star Quaterback he is going to take the heat for this meltdown. I have no problem with him getting booed and I find it hard to feel bad for a guy that is going to be making 15-20 million dollars a season.

I personally think booing players is immature regardless of how much someone is getting paid. But while I get what you're saying completely about criticizing performance, which I do think comes with the territory to some degree, I think it's also prudent to understand why a player isn't playing well before criticizing too much; especially scathing commentary like the aforementioned article.

mth123
10-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Josh Hamilton made his choices. There is only one person to blame for him now living under a suspicious public eye.

I don't care enough to read the article, but if Josh Hamilton is being questioned without much real information to go on, its really only his own fault IMO.

Dom Heffner
10-07-2012, 08:03 PM
I personally think booing players is immature regardless of how much someone is getting paid. But while I get what you're saying completely about criticizing performance, which I do think comes with the territory to some degree, I think it's also prudent to understand why a player isn't playing well before criticizing too much; especially scathing commentary like the aforementioned article.

Oh yes. People should only applaud. They should also clap for the other team if they run hard to first base on a routine groundball.

In all seriousness, the point of the article is to jab at Hamilton for the myriad of reasons he gives for not being able to play or not play up to his standards. Yeah, we may never know, but Hamilton is partially to blame here: he gives reasons that I think we can agree no other player in baseball gives. It is always something with him. He's religious, yet he finds himself in bars with women who are not his wife licking whip cream off his chest. He's also said that because of his religion he needs to make sure he gets paid- that money has to do the Lord's work, you know. Who else in baseball does this crap happen with? Who can't play in day games because their eyes bother them? Who needs constant babysitting because they have a drug problem?

I see the author's point. Just because you're a good baseball player doesn't mean the whole world has to bend over and kiss your tail and cheer you on good and bad. Players earn respect, and Hamilton has apparently done enough down there to the point where some people have had it. I dunno- would Tony Gwynn get booed? Steve Garvey? Are they booing Adrian Beltre? Is Elvis Andrus drawing ire? Hamilton is high maintenance and if you're going to demand different treatment than everyone else, then you're probably going to be given a shorter leash...

Brutus
10-07-2012, 08:29 PM
Oh yes. People should only applaud. They should also clap for the other team if they run hard to first base on a routine groundball.

In all seriousness, the point of the article is to jab at Hamilton for the myriad of reasons he gives for not being able to play or not play up to his standards. Yeah, we may never know, but Hamilton is partially to blame here: he gives reasons that I think we can agree no other player in baseball gives. It is always something with him. He's religious, yet he finds himself in bars with women who are not his wife licking whip cream off his chest. He's also said that because of his religion he needs to make sure he gets paid- that money has to do the Lord's work, you know. Who else in baseball does this crap happen with? Who can't play in day games because their eyes bother them? Who needs constant babysitting because they have a drug problem?

I see the author's point. Just because you're a good baseball player doesn't mean the whole world has to bend over and kiss your tail and cheer you on good and bad. Players earn respect, and Hamilton has apparently done enough down there to the point where some people have had it. I dunno- would Tony Gwynn get booed? Steve Garvey? Are they booing Adrian Beltre? Is Elvis Andrus drawing ire? Hamilton is high maintenance and if you're going to demand different treatment than everyone else, then you're probably going to be given a shorter leash...

Just because I think booing players is immature doesn't mean I think players are beyond reproach. I don't mind being open to criticism. I think the scathing tone of the article and promoting acting like hooligans at a baseball game takes away from any points the author may have had.

If people think buying a ticket gives them a right to act like a child when a player doesn't perform to their expectations, that's their prerogative I suppose. I just think it's silly, personally. Doesn't mean I think Hamilton deserves no criticism. I just think booing is a pretty petty way of going about it.

savafan
10-07-2012, 08:36 PM
If people think buying a ticket gives them a right to act like a child when a player doesn't perform to their expectations, that's their prerogative I suppose. I just think it's silly, personally. Doesn't mean I think Hamilton deserves no criticism. I just think booing is a pretty petty way of going about it.

How do you express your displeasure at a game if you don't boo?

_Sir_Charles_
10-07-2012, 08:45 PM
How do you express your displeasure at a game if you don't boo?

Frown....intensely. Isn't that what everyone does? :O)

dougdirt
10-07-2012, 08:56 PM
How do you express your displeasure at a game if you don't boo?

Leave the game and don't come back.

Tom Servo
10-07-2012, 08:58 PM
To me it's not even the booing, it's the sense that Hamilton somehow is supposed to never come up short, ever. Dude was one of the best players in all of baseball and helped get Texas to 2 straight World Series and this guy bashes him like he was Juan Castro. Also one of my biggest pet peeves is sports writers or fans 'calling out' athletes on injury issues.

Chip R
10-07-2012, 09:07 PM
In all seriousness, the point of the article is to jab at Hamilton for the myriad of reasons he gives for not being able to play or not play up to his standards. Yeah, we may never know, but Hamilton is partially to blame here: he gives reasons that I think we can agree no other player in baseball gives. It is always something with him. He's religious, yet he finds himself in bars with women who are not his wife licking whip cream off his chest. He's also said that because of his religion he needs to make sure he gets paid- that money has to do the Lord's work, you know. Who else in baseball does this crap happen with? Who can't play in day games because their eyes bother them? Who needs constant babysitting because they have a drug problem?

I see the author's point. Just because you're a good baseball player doesn't mean the whole world has to bend over and kiss your tail and cheer you on good and bad. Players earn respect, and Hamilton has apparently done enough down there to the point where some people have had it. I dunno- would Tony Gwynn get booed? Steve Garvey? Are they booing Adrian Beltre? Is Elvis Andrus drawing ire? Hamilton is high maintenance and if you're going to demand different treatment than everyone else, then you're probably going to be given a shorter leash...

I do see the author's point. However, Hamilton is the kind of a talent that comes along maybe once a generation. Despite all of his drug problems and time out from the game, he still performs at an elite level. You make allowances for that kind of talent.

But what teams are going to have to decide is how long is that talent going to hold out. I would worry more about the injuries than a relapse. It would be insanity to sign him to a 10 year deal unless there is a team out there like the Yankees that have money to burn and could write off 3-5 years of the deal.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 09:20 PM
Josh Hamilton made his choices. There is only one person to blame for him now living under a suspicious public eye.

I don't care enough to read the article, but if Josh Hamilton is being questioned without much real information to go on, its really only his own fault IMO.

They're not booing him because of his choices. If he were hitting .400 with 40 bombs, no one in Texas would be booing even if he were relapsing.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 09:24 PM
How do you express your displeasure at a game if you don't boo?

Why does the displeasure have to be expressed at a game? Isn't that the point of call-in radio shows, internet boards, letters to the sports editor, blogs, websites, etc.? There are a whole lot of methods to express displeasure.

cincrazy
10-07-2012, 09:27 PM
Why does the displeasure have to be expressed at a game? Isn't that the point of call-in radio shows, internet boards, letters to the sports editor, blogs, websites, etc.? There are a whole lot of methods to express displeasure.

The fans are paying the money to attend. They're responsible for the player's salary. No fans, no money. They're entitled to boo if they see fit. I think Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter getting booed was absurd. Josh Hamilton gettin booed, IMO, isn't a disgrace.

For that writer to write an article of that type, I have to feel it's the general sentiment of the Rangers clubhouse.

Brutus
10-07-2012, 09:34 PM
The fans are paying the money to attend. They're responsible for the player's salary. No fans, no money. They're entitled to boo if they see fit. I think Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter getting booed was absurd. Josh Hamilton gettin booed, IMO, isn't a disgrace.

For that writer to write an article of that type, I have to feel it's the general sentiment of the Rangers clubhouse.

And I renew my previous opinion that if people feel that buying a ticket entitles them to act immature, that's their prerogative.

But paying money to see a baseball game gives them entrance to watch the game, not act a fool. They're not paying to boo, they're paying to watch a game. I don't agree with the "I'm a consumer, I have a right" logic.

Wonderful Monds
10-07-2012, 09:34 PM
To me it's not even the booing, it's the sense that Hamilton somehow is supposed to never come up short, ever. Dude was one of the best players in all of baseball and helped get Texas to 2 straight World Series and this guy bashes him like he was Juan Castro. Also one of my biggest pet peeves is sports writers or fans 'calling out' athletes on injury issues.

Bashing him like he was Juan Castro? Um, I think it's Juan Castro who pinch hits for Josh Hamilton, thank you very much.

Get your facts straight.

savafan
10-07-2012, 09:37 PM
Why does the displeasure have to be expressed at a game? Isn't that the point of call-in radio shows, internet boards, letters to the sports editor, blogs, websites, etc.? There are a whole lot of methods to express displeasure.

Yeah, but no, when I'm at a game if a player does something stupid or an umpire makes a bad call, I want to let them now that right then and there. That's my right as a spectator. Cheer the good and boo the bad. Then again, a lot of fans in Cincinnati sit on their hands the majority of the game regardless of what's happening...

The Operator
10-08-2012, 03:22 AM
Booing is fine by me but I do think that often times it's done too much, and it takes away the effect of it when you do it all the time. Yes I'm looking at you, Phillies fans.

Brutus
10-08-2012, 03:39 AM
Yeah, but no, when I'm at a game if a player does something stupid or an umpire makes a bad call, I want to let them now that right then and there. That's my right as a spectator. Cheer the good and boo the bad. Then again, a lot of fans in Cincinnati sit on their hands the majority of the game regardless of what's happening...

I'm not terribly dead set against booing in general, or at least the other teams or controversial calls, but I especially think booing your own players is bush league.

KronoRed
10-08-2012, 04:20 AM
Nothing wrong with booing, boo it up when the team is bad.

As for Hamilton, I hope the Cards get him, everything he has said comes across to me as a guy who can't wait to get the big money pay day and then take it easy and relax, I'll be surprised if he averages more then 120 games a year the rest of his career.

Chip R
10-08-2012, 10:03 PM
One Rangers official says that they don't want him back, "not even if he wants to play here for free next season."

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/10/06/4315633/rangers-are-baseballs-latest-choke.html#storylink=cpy

westofyou
10-08-2012, 10:08 PM
The Prisoner of Redemption - What happened to Josh Hamilton? (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8477213/josh-hamilton-story-fall-texas-rangers)



A week later, on a bright day in Oakland, Hamilton dropped a can of corn.

Rangers fans and writers pulled out their knives. Hamilton, it was said, was high-maintenance. Of course, he'd always been high-maintenance a celebrated part of The Story was that Hamilton had an "accountability partner," Johnny Narron, who stayed one hotel room over; that he had to be sprayed with ginger ale while his teammates were sprayed with champagne. Hamilton, it was said, created clubhouse "drama." Well, yeah. This is the guy who said he saw Satan in the clouds. This is the guy who came to Arlington with the most pharmacologically adventurous past this side of Hollywood Henderson. That we thought his drama ended with Act 3 at the conclusion of the book or DVD or testimonial showed we were as beguiled by The Story as Hamilton was.

It's not defending Josh Hamilton to say that he became despised this year for many of the things that, in the confines of a redemption narrative, once made him beloved. The Story swallowed the man. Hamilton seems like a reasonably friendly, occasionally defensive guy who is teetering on the edge of sobriety, who is prone to inconvenient bouts of detachment, and who gets hurt a lot. When he goes to his next team, I hope a new story will start there. But I have a sinking feeling that every time he loses a fly ball, Hamilton will again be a prisoner of redemption, trapped in a tale too flawless for any man.

REDREAD
10-09-2012, 01:08 AM
To me it's not even the booing, it's the sense that Hamilton somehow is supposed to never come up short, ever. Dude was one of the best players in all of baseball and helped get Texas to 2 straight World Series and this guy bashes him like he was Juan Castro. Also one of my biggest pet peeves is sports writers or fans 'calling out' athletes on injury issues.

I agree.. That one paragraph was ludicrous -- summary was "How dare Josh Hamilton go 0-4".. Every player has an o-fer day occasionally.. geez.
I'm happy for Josh that he's eligible for FA. Hopefully he can find a team he likes and be happy again.

RFS62
10-09-2012, 01:39 AM
The Prisoner of Redemption - What happened to Josh Hamilton? (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8477213/josh-hamilton-story-fall-texas-rangers)

A week later, on a bright day in Oakland, Hamilton dropped a can of corn.

Rangers fans and writers pulled out their knives. Hamilton, it was said, was high-maintenance. Of course, he'd always been high-maintenance a celebrated part of The Story was that Hamilton had an "accountability partner," Johnny Narron, who stayed one hotel room over; that he had to be sprayed with ginger ale while his teammates were sprayed with champagne. Hamilton, it was said, created clubhouse "drama." Well, yeah. This is the guy who said he saw Satan in the clouds. This is the guy who came to Arlington with the most pharmacologically adventurous past this side of Hollywood Henderson. That we thought his drama ended with Act 3 at the conclusion of the book or DVD or testimonial showed we were as beguiled by The Story as Hamilton was.

It's not defending Josh Hamilton to say that he became despised this year for many of the things that, in the confines of a redemption narrative, once made him beloved. The Story swallowed the man. Hamilton seems like a reasonably friendly, occasionally defensive guy who is teetering on the edge of sobriety, who is prone to inconvenient bouts of detachment, and who gets hurt a lot. When he goes to his next team, I hope a new story will start there. But I have a sinking feeling that every time he loses a fly ball, Hamilton will again be a prisoner of redemption, trapped in a tale too flawless for any man.


That's some great stuff. I know a lot of serious baseball fans in Dallas who are far more down on Hamilton than even this guy. They think he's a quitter, and that's worse than a drug addict here.

They're talking about him in Dallas now like they talk about Lamar Odom after "Dirk beat him up and the Mavericks sent he and his skanky Kardashian wife packing back to LA'' as described to me by a rabid Dallas sports fan. Seriously, that was a huge event here, and this is bigger.

There's no way he comes back to the Rangers.

defender
10-09-2012, 03:13 AM
He hit less than .250 and struck out almost 120 times the last four months of the season. That is what the fans are reacting to. He had an amazing first two months and his overall stats are very good. His three year stats are excellent. The fans who have watched him over the last four months do not want him signed to a big long term contract.

Sea Ray
10-09-2012, 08:52 AM
He hit less than .250 and struck out almost 120 times the last four months of the season. That is what the fans are reacting to. He had an amazing first two months and his overall stats are very good. His three year stats are excellent. The fans who have watched him over the last four months do not want him signed to a big long term contract.

Those are Adam Dunn-like numbers. Horrors.

I see similarities to Ken Griffey Jr's career. Both LH, power hitting CFs who had a reputation for being high maintenance, detached and lacking leadership skills. In fact I'm seeing a lot of the same complaints I heard from his time as a Red and likely led to his being traded. The thing is, those MVP numbers he puts up are worth a lot of hassles. It's just that dropped ball that's hard to defend

The Operator
10-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Those are Adam Dunn-like numbers. Horrors.

I see similarities to Ken Griffey Jr's career. Both LH, power hitting CFs who had a reputation for being high maintenance, detached and lacking leadership skills. In fact I'm seeing a lot of the same complaints I heard from his time as a Red and likely led to his being traded. The thing is, those MVP numbers he puts up are worth a lot of hassles. It's just that dropped ball that's hard to defend
I've never felt that way about Griffey Jr. at any point, I think he get a pretty bum deal from most people in Cincinnati. He got hurt a lot yes, but he left it all on the field and is/was a pretty good guy from everything I've read.


And even if Jr. was high maintenance to some degree, he'd have nothing on Hamilton. Hamilton is a recovering coke addict who has to have a baby-sitter with him at all times and can't be trusted to carry any money in his pocket.

And I'm a Christian so I hope no one takes this as me bashing Christians, but he goes a bit overboard sometimes with his "I'm God's Chosen Messenger" act. He once said he saw Satan in the clouds... I mean come on. Crap like that is what makes people mock the rest of us.

But I don't wanna turn this into a religion thing because this is the wrong forum, I'm just saying I don't think there is really anyone who can compare to Hamilton's level of High Maintenance. He's a case study all of his own.

smith288
10-09-2012, 04:29 PM
I think the God-speak is a way to hold himself accountable and to a standard he must meet. Just my opinion.

dabvu2498
10-10-2012, 10:03 AM
Nolan Ryan blames dip:


"His timing on quitting smokeless tobacco couldn’t have been worse. You would’ve liked to have thought that if he was going to do that that he would’ve done it in the offseason or waited until this offseason to do it. So the drastic effect that it had on him and the year that he was having up to that point in time that he did quit, you’d have liked that he would’ve taken a different approach to that. So those issues caused unrest, and it’s unfortunate that it happened and the timing was such as it was."

reds44
10-10-2012, 12:48 PM
Ken Griffey Jr. was "high maintence" in the sesne of star players being high maintence. He's a first ballot, no doubt Hall of Famer. Josh Hamilton is "high maintence" in the sense of he's like a 2 year old who can't be left alone or trusted with anything.

The stuff of him (Hamilton) causing drama in the clubhouse should surprise nobody, because he did the same thing here.

Vottomatic
12-02-2012, 04:34 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/stark-on-hamilton-greinke-swisher-shields.html


Most of the people surveyed see Hamilton winding back up with the Rangers when all is said and done. Outside of Texas, there were predictions for the Orioles, Red Sox, Brewers, and Phillies.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/stark-on-hamilton-greinke-swisher-shields.html#MO6erzoST4FafPVV.99

I'd make Hamilton a 2-year offer for a ridiculous amount. Stick him in LF and bat him cleanup. This team would be unbeatable with that pitching staff and offensive lineup.

Then I'd acquire Fowler somehow.

And in that same article it talks about the Rays seriously moving James Shields this season because he has 2 years left of value to some team and they'll get more now than next offseason. Walt has always wanted Shields, and the Rays held out for Mez last year and Walt wouldn't pull the trigger. Mez + Corcino or Cingrani would get it done.

I don't know how they'd afford it, but you could print World Series tickets on Opening Day.

CF Fowler (SH)
2B Phillips (RH)
1B Votto (LH)
LF Hamilton (LH)
RF Bruce (LH)
3B Frazier (RH)
C Hanigan (RH)
SS Cozart (RH)

SP Cueto
SP Latos
SP Bailey
SP Shields
SP Arroyo

CL Chapman (I don't care if they want to start him, they don't need him too)
RP Broxton
RP Marshall
RP Hoover
RP Lecure
RP Arredondo
RP Cingrani or someone

westofyou
12-02-2012, 06:39 PM
I'd fly to the moon if I could.

Vottomatic
12-02-2012, 10:35 PM
I'd fly to the moon if I could.

When you figure out how to get there, stay. :p