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View Full Version : Dusty: Hamilton "Possibly" a Septmeber Call-up



reds44
08-10-2012, 02:37 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/10/hamilton-possibly-september-call-up/


“Possibly,” Baker said. “Speed’s always an asset. Speed kills. I remember the Cardinals with Willie McGee, Vince Coleman and Ozzie (Smith). Man. That was their slogan, speed kills.”

Tom Servo
08-10-2012, 02:43 PM
In theory it's not the WORST idea, but I feel like you could find a really fast guy on the market that wouldn't start Hamilton's clock or rush his development.

reds44
08-10-2012, 02:46 PM
I'm sure that has been answered 100 times, but does calling him up in Septmeber start his clock or burn an option year? Also, is it possible for him to be called up in September and still be on the playoff roster?

redsfan30
08-10-2012, 02:47 PM
I don't know about the arb clock but as long as you are on the roster by September 1, you are playoff elegible unless there is a DL stint involved.

kaldaniels
08-10-2012, 02:49 PM
I'm not opposed to it, though odds are against his base running being a difference maker in a month's worth of games.

reds44
08-10-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't know about the arb clock but as long as you are on the roster by September 1, you are playoff elegible unless there is a DL stint involved.
He'd have to be up August 31st to be playoff roster elligbile. Calling him up the 31st burns an option year for sure. Really, what I'm trying to figure out is if it's possible to get him on the playoff roster without burning an option. I think september callups doesn't burn an option, but I'm not positive.

redsfandan
08-10-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm sure that has been answered 100 times, but does calling him up in Septmeber start his clock or burn an option year? Also, is it possible for him to be called up in September and still be on the playoff roster?

I'm not sure that it does start his clock or burn an option year (which might not matter that much anyway). Pretty sure he'll have to be added to the 40 man roster though.

My understanding is that he has to be added to the team before September 1 to be eligible for the playoffs unless he's replacing an injured player.

REDREAD
08-10-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm sure that has been answered 100 times, but does calling him up in Septmeber start his clock or burn an option year? Also, is it possible for him to be called up in September and still be on the playoff roster?

I think if they bring him up in September, then the service time does count while he's up.
If he's on the roster all of september, then 2012 does not count as an option year.
However, since he was added in 2012, they would have to option him in 2013 to the minors.

So, it does not burn an option in 2012, but it does in 2013.
If the Reds do not call Billy up in 2012, I am not sure if he has to be optioned in 2013 or not.. It all depends on age and service time in the minors.
Now maybe Billy has enough service time where they are forced to use options on him in 2013, whether he's called up or not.. Don't know on that one.

Not a complete answer, but hopefully someone will jump in to fill in the gaps. You can always count on Redszone to correct wrong information . :) (This was said in a joking fun tone, please no one be offended)

Not 100% sure if they call him up in late August and keep him up all year if that burns an option or not.. but I think it does.. The September thing is a special exception to encourage clubs to call up prospects without penalty.

Another edit: I think the chance of Billy being on the playoff roster is zero.
Dusty is going to be loyal to the players that got him there.
He's not going to drop Leake/Homer/or Arroyo for another position player off the bench. Honestly, I'm glad Dusty is like that. I always thought it sucked that Bobby Cox would drop a player that was on the roster all year for a 3rd catcher for the playoffs.

LoganBuck
08-10-2012, 03:04 PM
I'm sure that has been answered 100 times, but does calling him up in September start his clock or burn an option year? Also, is it possible for him to be called up in September and still be on the playoff roster?

Hamilton needs to be on the 40 man roster by Aug 31 at 11:59pm to be eligible for the postseason roster. His service time accrued would count towards his arbitration clock. They would not use an option unless they added him to the 40 man and did not call him up to the majors, which would be silly. So no options would be used this season. He would be forced to start burning options in 2013. Which would mean he must be in the majors for good by 2016.

bucksfan2
08-10-2012, 03:10 PM
I'm sure that has been answered 100 times, but does calling him up in Septmeber start his clock or burn an option year? Also, is it possible for him to be called up in September and still be on the playoff roster?

My simple answer would be yes to both.

I think there is a way to get a guy who has been called up after Sept. 1st on your playoff roster.

As for burning an option, if Billy Hamilton is as good as many think then his options shouldn't really matter.

cumberlandreds
08-10-2012, 03:12 PM
I would be shocked if they brought him up just because it does start all of his financial clocks in motion. Back in the day before arbitration,free agency and all he would be brought up in September and gain some valuable MLB experience. Maybe make a difference in a game or two with his speed. But you just can't do that anymore.

kaldaniels
08-10-2012, 03:14 PM
I would be shocked if they brought him up just because it does start all of his financial clocks in motion. Back in the day before arbitration,free agency and all he would be brought up in September and gain some valuable MLB experience. Maybe make a difference in a game or two with his speed. But you just can't do that anymore.

Options aside, you can start and stop the financial clock. I'm ok with it...at worst he would have to be up to stay in 2016.

LoganBuck
08-10-2012, 03:16 PM
I think there is a way to get a guy who has been called up after Sept. 1st on your playoff roster.


There are two stipulations. The player must be on the 40 man roster on Aug 31, or if given a stupendous amount of injury attrition on the 40 man roster, the player must have been in the organization on Aug 31. After the regular season ends changes must be pitcher for pitcher, or position player for position player.

kbrake
08-10-2012, 03:16 PM
I'm all for bringing him up and giving him a shot to fix the leadoff spot. I don't know a ton about his defense but I'd be ok seeing him play SS and leadoff until late in the game and then bring Cozart in. Unless of course he is a butcher at SS.

redsfandan
08-10-2012, 03:17 PM
I think there is a way to get a guy who has been called up after Sept. 1st on your playoff roster.


I think that's the one thing I got right. If a player on the team becomes injured in September they can bring up Hamilton to replace him on the playoff roster.

vic715
08-10-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm not opposed to it, though odds are against his base running being a difference maker in a month's worth of games.

That particular month may turn out to be the most important and probably will.Having his speed will make him a great asset in a late inning situation needing a pinch runner.One game could be a difference maker.

JaxRed
08-10-2012, 03:36 PM
Adding him to the roster and bringing him up does NOT burn an option. No matter how long he is up.

LoganBuck
08-10-2012, 03:41 PM
I think that's the one thing I got right. If a player on the team becomes injured in September they can bring up Hamilton to replace him on the playoff roster.

Only if he is on the 40 man, on Aug 31

757690
08-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Could care less about hIs options and free agent clock. I just want to make sure he's ready for the majors. He's never even been in major league camp in spring training. Bringing him up too early, even just to pinch run, could stunt his development.

Brutus
08-10-2012, 04:17 PM
As Jax said, calling up Billy Hamilton would not burn an option. He would have to spend more than 20 days in the minors, while on the 40-man roster, in order to use up an option year.

Calling him up would start his three-year option clock (teams have three calendar years from the date of a player first reporting to the major league club during a season to use up the three options). After the clock expires, any options would need to clear waivers.

Dan
08-10-2012, 04:17 PM
Another edit: I think the chance of Billy being on the playoff roster is zero.
Dusty is going to be loyal to the players that got him there.
He's not going to drop Leake/Homer/or Arroyo for another position player off the bench. Honestly, I'm glad Dusty is like that. I always thought it sucked that Bobby Cox would drop a player that was on the roster all year for a 3rd catcher for the playoffs.

And Bobby Cox's teams really suffered from him taking that approach, didn't they?

reds44
08-10-2012, 04:34 PM
Hamilton needs to be on the 40 man roster by Aug 31 at 11:59pm to be eligible for the postseason roster. His service time accrued would count towards his arbitration clock. They would not use an option unless they added him to the 40 man and did not call him up to the majors, which would be silly. So no options would be used this season. He would be forced to start burning options in 2013. Which would mean he must be in the majors for good by 2016.
Assuming this is all correct (and I have no reason to believe you're wrong), I'd have no problem bringing him up. Probably a better option for the postseason roster than Valdez as well.

reds44
08-10-2012, 04:35 PM
Could care less about hIs options and free agent clock. I just want to make sure he's ready for the majors. He's never even been in major league camp in spring training. Bringing him up too early, even just to pinch run, could stunt his development.
How does bringing him up after his minor league season ends to pinch run stunt his development, at all?

mdccclxix
08-10-2012, 04:37 PM
I'm glad it's at least a consideration. I'd love to see his application during the stretch run.

757690
08-10-2012, 04:46 PM
How does bringing him up after his minor league season ends to pinch run stunt his development, at all?

The major league experience is completely different from the minor league experience. Games count, 1000x more pressure, 1000x more fans in the stands, dozen more media types to deal with, everything you do is under a microscope, etc. Not everyone is ready for bright lights big cities at age 21.

It's not just about his physical skills, it's also about his mental and emotional development.

kaldaniels
08-10-2012, 04:50 PM
The major league experience is completely different from the minor league experience. Games count, 1000x more pressure, 1000x more fans in the stands, dozen more media types to deal with, everything you do is under a microscope, etc. Not everyone is ready for bright lights big cities at age 21.

It's not just about his physical skills, it's also about his mental and emotional development.

And some guys might shine knowing that they are coming up to the Show for a few weeks to be a pinch runner.

reds44
08-10-2012, 04:51 PM
I don't see how calling him to pinch run has any effect on him. If they called up up to play everyday, sure that could stunt his development.

kaldaniels
08-10-2012, 04:57 PM
I don't see how calling him to pinch run has any effect on him. If they called up up to play everyday, sure that could stunt his development.

Yep, I suppose it is possible, but I can't fathom a few weeks of being a running specialist as setting back a player's development. If one is arguing that I respectfully think it is quite a reach.

medford
08-10-2012, 05:04 PM
This has been discussed (the options and service time) in the minor league forum a ton.

Doug has suggested bringing up Theo Bowe instead as they have similar speed (though Billy has a significantly higher stolen base %, IIRC).

Personally, I love the idea, but only if you have him eligible for the playoff roster. As many have said, you keep him up the whole season, so he doesn't burn an option, which means that 2016 is the keep or cut period. It doesn't kill his development as you're not going to be putting him into game situations to bat or field on a regular basis, only to run the bases. He'd still have all of 2013 to spend in AA again (I'm not sure if repeat is the correct term as he's only been there a month or so). He'd have all of 2014 to develop in AAA. He'd have all of 2015 to prove himself in the majors, develop in AAA or shuttle back and forth based upon injuries.

Its quite possible he breaks camp in 2014 on the ML roster. If he struggles you still have 2 seasons to send him back to AAA to get his head straight if he finds himself in a major funk. If he's not ready to stick on the ML roster full time in 2016, even if he has to work thru a slump while in the majors, then he's likely not destined to be the star we hope he will be one day. Meanwhile, you can shuck the odds he won't be ready in 2016 and will be significantly damaged by being forced into the majors, but will be an everyday player in 2017 and beyond in exchange for a bench weapon that could make a difference in a game or 2 down the stretch and in the playoffs (if they get there).

757690
08-10-2012, 05:04 PM
Yep, I suppose it is possible, but I can't fathom a few weeks of being a running specialist as setting back a player's development. If one is arguing that I respectfully think it is quite a reach.

Quite a few players have had trouble adjusting to major league life. Either they party too much and get a big head, or are too overwhelmed by the pressure. The emotional and mental makeup of a player is always taken into consideration by teams when deciding when to call them up.

Think of people you work with. What if they were transferred to work in NYC? Some would shine, some would fold. Like I said, not everyone is ready for the bright lights of the big city.

Now I have no idea how this would effect Hamilton, just saying that it's something that needs to be considered.

REDREAD
08-10-2012, 06:13 PM
Quite a few players have had trouble adjusting to major league life. .

YEa, I would prefer to err on the side of caution.
Homer was called up way too early.

Some guys (not saying Homer or Hamilton) get a big head with the Sept callup and think they are entitled to be in the major leagues and then become malcontents when optioned down.

I'd wait until next year to call Hamilton up. Wait until he's a better player.
Everyone wants to see Hamilton now (much like Homer), but when you rush a player up too early, the shine fades away pretty fast.
Not to mention, Marty is going to bad mouth him at every opportunity (as he does with all young players.. homer, bruce, stubbs, etc).. I can hear him now "You can be the fastest man on the earth, but you got to be able to hit big league pitching".. not ready to hear that every game for the rest of the year. Yea, I am overestimating the impact Marty has, but it doesn't contribute to a positive environment.

membengal
08-10-2012, 07:52 PM
Respectfully, I am pretty sure with Dusty and leaders like Rolen I think the danger of Hamilton being called up and then going the full Spicoli are pretty low.

I don't see the harm, it would be a great atmosphere for the kid to be around, and he might be able to help here and there. Glad they are considering it.

buckeyenut
08-11-2012, 12:14 PM
If Hamilton is the future, then a) I want him up here Aug 31 so he can help the team in the postseason and b) I want him experiencing Major League AND Post Season baseball. THAT is the experience that will be invaluable for him, being on the bench on a pennant winner down the stretch and into the postseason.

Make it clear to him coming up what his role is and that unless something major happens, he will still start next year in the minors. But I think given how he can help the team and how it can help him long term, I think you pull the trigger on him being up Aug 31

Will M
08-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Manny Machado 2.0?

I find it interesting how some teams are pushing their top prospects. Trout played a month in AAA. Harper skipped AAA. Machado was good not great in AA & just got the call to the bigs. Bundy is already in AA.

Yet Wil Myers is still in AAA. It depends on the player. Myers strikes out a lot. Rizzo flopped in 2011 so I could see why the Cubs played him another half season in AAA.

As for Hamilton I doubt he is major league ready. But I'd sure love to see him this year.

Gizmo
08-11-2012, 02:07 PM
IF he's someone who is going to be a part of this team at some point next season (even if it's just September) and into the future, and it's not going to cost him ABs in the minors or disrupt the current 40 man too badly (who would he replace?) then why not? He's got speed that we could use on the basepaths at the end of games when were trying to clinch. It's not like we're great at bunting men over, so he could save us that unsuccessful sacrifice and out that gives us another shot at driving a man in. Experience isn't going to hurt him or the team if he's being used for speed and maybe a spot PH in a non-critical AB.

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Interesting stats from Peter Gammons on Twitter:

Billy Hamilton:age 21, .401 OB%, .399 Slug, .800 OPS, 135 SB, 35 XBH
Delino DeShields, age 19, .401 OB%, .439 Slug, .840 OPS, 83 SB, 37 XBH

cinreds21
08-13-2012, 02:36 AM
Here is the deal on the options. Billy, as we all know, isn't on the 40-man roster. Adding him in September does nothing right now as far as option years. The problem comes into play next year. I would almost guarantee he wouldn't start the year in the big leagues, so that would burn his first option. Now here is my gripe with it; Billy isn't Rule V eligible until next off-season, meaning adding him to the 40 this year would burn an unnecessary option year when he does not have to be protected this off-season.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 02:46 AM
Here is the deal on the options. Billy, as we all know, isn't on the 40-man roster. Adding him in September does nothing right now as far as option years. The problem comes into play next year. I would almost guarantee he wouldn't start the year in the big leagues, so that would burn his first option. Now here is my gripe with it; Billy isn't Rule V eligible until next off-season, meaning adding him to the 40 this year would burn an unnecessary option year when he does not have to be protected this off-season.

While that's all true, it really comes down to whether one would expect Billy Hamilton will need three years to be ready to stick in the big leagues. Even if they add him to the roster this month in anticipation of a September call-up, they'd have until at least late 2015 before potentially having any concern.

The Rule 5 issue isn't really much of an issue. It's whether or not they think they'll need to burn all of his options in the next three seasons or won't be reayd.

cinreds21
08-13-2012, 02:59 AM
That is very true, Brutus. You would hope that, but still, it's, for the most part, my rule of thumb.

mth123
08-13-2012, 04:19 AM
The question I have, assuming you want to devote a roster spot to a PR, is whether bringing Hamilton up as a PR would add much more value than signing any old joe fast guy off the scrap heap and using him in that role. How much value would having Hamilton as a PR provide as opposed to bringing in a Joey Gathright or a Willy Taveras? Would we really notice the difference in such a limited role and would it be worth starting the clock, locking in a 40 man slot and burning an option?

I say its not worth it. If you want a fast guy that really provides no other value at this time, they are a dime a dozen

camisadelgolf
08-13-2012, 04:34 AM
There's only so much time before a player becomes a free agent. I'd rather the Reds get as much of the final version of Hamilton as possible and leave the unfinished version in the minor leagues. Also, what if he turns out to be a Homer Bailey situation? Bailey's options were used sooner than necessary, and it ended up being costly (although not nearly as disastrous as it was once feared to become).

membengal
08-13-2012, 07:44 AM
Not sure I agree that IF he were called up, that ALL he could do is pinch run. He's now at .288/.410/.405 in AA in his first 111 at-bats. And that's at a level that a LOT of people expected him to struggle at this point. At the very least, I think reasonable minds can agree...he hasn't struggled.

All of which is to say, IF he were called up, I think he could potentially get some run and some at-bats and be helpful.

For what it's worth.

blumj
08-13-2012, 09:40 AM
While that's all true, it really comes down to whether one would expect Billy Hamilton will need three years to be ready to stick in the big leagues. Even if they add him to the roster this month in anticipation of a September call-up, they'd have until at least late 2015 before potentially having any concern.

The Rule 5 issue isn't really much of an issue. It's whether or not they think they'll need to burn all of his options in the next three seasons or won't be reayd.
The Rule 5 issue could be an issue if there's someone else they want to protect from the Rule 5 and won't have the 40 man spot because Hamilton's taking one up unnecessarily. If that's the case, then they should pick up a Gathright or Podsednik instead. If it's not the case, and they're confident it won't end up being the case next season, and they trust him to be their PR vs. MLB competition, then the rest of it probably doesn't matter.

lollipopcurve
08-13-2012, 10:03 AM
There's dead wood on the 40, so I don't see an issue there. I think you add him. The guy is making very rapid progress -- he's not going to need 3 more years in the minors. I think they'll do it -- the question is, will it be by August 31?

dfs
08-13-2012, 10:38 AM
The guy is making very rapid progress -- he's not going to need 3 more years in the minors.

Can anybody verify that Hamilton has made real progress at shortstop?
When he left Dayton, it seemed pretty clear that he didn't belong there.
He hasn't been moved off of shortstop.

Tough to stick in the NL if you can't field.

lollipopcurve
08-13-2012, 10:47 AM
Can anybody verify that Hamilton has made real progress at shortstop?
When he left Dayton, it seemed pretty clear that he didn't belong there.
He hasn't been moved off of shortstop.

Tough to stick in the NL if you can't field.

CF and LF are options if he can't stick at SS. Won't take him long to make that adjustment.

camisadelgolf
08-13-2012, 01:09 PM
Can anybody verify that Hamilton has made real progress at shortstop?
When he left Dayton, it seemed pretty clear that he didn't belong there.
He hasn't been moved off of shortstop.

Tough to stick in the NL if you can't field.
A .960 fielding average is pretty good, which is where he stands in double-A. I don't know if you've seen Bakersfield's infield, but even though they've made improvements, it can still be pretty rough. It seems to drag most infielders' fielding average down, so you have to take those numbers with a big grain of salt. As for range, well, I'd say he's about equal with Didi Gregorius overall.

Always Red
08-13-2012, 01:18 PM
CF and LF are options if he can't stick at SS. Won't take him long to make that adjustment.

I heard Bowden talking (yeah, I know) on Mo Egger's show last week about Hamilton- he said he's a great talent, thinks he should be used as a pinch runner on a September call up, but also said his arm is not strong enough for either SS or CF. Bowden said he's either a 2B or LF at the MLB level.

Take the above for what that's worth. I have no idea; I've never seen him throw.

Tom Servo
08-13-2012, 02:01 PM
Tough to stick in the NL if you can't field.
Starlin Castro and Hanley Ramirez say 'sup'.


I think it's too early to determine what Hamilton can and can't play in the majors; he's still developing in the minors. I remember Votto talking about how horrific he was at defense until manning 1B in the majors. I say keep him on track as an infielder and then if he's a horror show at the majors, you move him to the outfield.

reds44
08-13-2012, 02:02 PM
You can't judge Hamilton or even Castro based on errors right now. They're both still so young.

Also, Hamilton has an OBP north of .400 in AA right now.

Always Red
08-13-2012, 02:02 PM
Starlin Castro and Hanley Ramirez say 'sup'.


I think it's too early to determine what Hamilton can and can't play in the majors; he's still developing in the minors. I remember Votto talking about how horrific he was at defense until manning 1B in the majors. I say keep him on track as an infielder and then if he's a horror show at the majors, you move him to the outfield.

As good as Darwin Barney is at 2B (and he is very good), Starlin Castro is that poor of a SS.

LoganBuck
08-13-2012, 02:44 PM
As good as Darwin Barney is at 2B (and he is very good), Starlin Castro is that poor of a SS.

Castro's problem is that he is a bonehead. He fits at the extreme end of the equation that he just has a very low baseball IQ. His errors are more about lack of preparation and concentration. I see him as the shortstop version of Edwin Encarnacion. The talent is there, and readily on display for all to see, and then he does something stupid. Talking to Cubs fans, they have really grown weary of Castro. He is turning into the target of scorn.

dfs
08-13-2012, 04:52 PM
I heard Bowden talking (yeah, I know) on Mo Egger's show last week about Hamilton- he said he's a great talent, thinks he should be used as a pinch runner on a September call up, but also said his arm is not strong enough for either SS or CF. Bowden said he's either a 2B or LF at the MLB level.

Take the above for what that's worth. I have no idea; I've never seen him throw.

How do we know Jim Bowden is lying?

FWIW from where I sat Hamilton (like Frazier) had plenty of arm and range, but his feet kept getting in his own way.

The notion that anybody would move him over to second base seems pretty funny to me.

I was looking for an honest "eyes" assessment thinking maybe somebody had been to Pensacola. It's a good problem to have a full major league roster with no holes AND talent showing up at AA/AAA.

(Oh, yeah...we know he's lying cause his mouth is moving, dfs!)

Always Red
08-13-2012, 05:06 PM
How do we know Jim Bowden is lying?

FWIW from where I sat Hamilton (like Frazier) had plenty of arm and range, but his feet kept getting in his own way.

The notion that anybody would move him over to second base seems pretty funny to me.

I was looking for an honest "eyes" assessment thinking maybe somebody had been to Pensacola. It's a good problem to have a full major league roster with no holes AND talent showing up at AA/AAA.

(Oh, yeah...we know he's lying cause his mouth is moving, dfs!)

did you answer your own question, dfs? ;)

I trust Bowden's evaluation of players. I think he was a less than great GM only because he over valued hitting and undervalued pitching. And wore leather pants, at least one time. :beerme:

I'm glad you got to see him throw in person. I've looked on Youtube and there's a lot of him hitting and swiping bases, but none of him in the field.

Not that I could evaluate his arm anyway. :laugh:

membengal
08-13-2012, 10:19 PM
Hoping IF hamilton is called up in September, that he is introduced to CF in short order in batting practice and what not.

Spitball
08-13-2012, 11:15 PM
I hope he is moved to the outfield sooner than later. Eric Davis and Reggie Sanders were former Reds who switched from shortstop to be good outfielders.

I am looking forward to seeing this guy in the big leagues but not as a questionable infielder.

Sabo Fan
08-14-2012, 12:26 AM
I heard Bowden talking (yeah, I know) on Mo Egger's show last week about Hamilton- he said he's a great talent, thinks he should be used as a pinch runner on a September call up, but also said his arm is not strong enough for either SS or CF. Bowden said he's either a 2B or LF at the MLB level.

Take the above for what that's worth. I have no idea; I've never seen him throw.

As much as I hate agreeing with Bowden, I think that the best position for Hamilton will end up being LF. I know he's fast (which is an understatement) but just assuming because he can run like the wind that he'll be above average in CF is a big leap. He's got time to learn, but as dependant as this team has become on having a fly-catcher in CF I'd rather not take a chance on a converted SS at a premium defensive position. No harm in letting him try it out in the minors, but lets not get too disappointed if LF is the better fit.

Homer Bailey
08-14-2012, 12:45 AM
As much as I hate agreeing with Bowden, I think that the best position for Hamilton will end up being LF. I know he's fast (which is an understatement) but just assuming because he can run like the wind that he'll be above average in CF is a big leap. He's got time to learn, but as dependant as this team has become on having a fly-catcher in CF I'd rather not take a chance on a converted SS at a premium defensive position. No harm in letting him try it out in the minors, but lets not get too disappointed if LF is the better fit.

Could easily be the case. That being said, he should be given every opportunity to play center, as he'd be much more valuable there if he can play it well.

Boss-Hog
08-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Could easily be the case. That being said, he should be given every opportunity to play center, as he'd be much more valuable there if he can play it well.

Agreed

LegallyMinded
08-14-2012, 02:00 PM
As much as I hate agreeing with Bowden, I think that the best position for Hamilton will end up being LF. I know he's fast (which is an understatement) but just assuming because he can run like the wind that he'll be above average in CF is a big leap. He's got time to learn, but as dependant as this team has become on having a fly-catcher in CF I'd rather not take a chance on a converted SS at a premium defensive position. No harm in letting him try it out in the minors, but lets not get too disappointed if LF is the better fit.

Jerry Crasnick wrote up an article (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8259517/cincinnati-reds-prospect-billy-hamilton-fast-track) on Billy Hamilton today. A few of the highlights:


"During a state playoff game, Hamilton raced across the diamond from his shortstop position and made a diving catch on the foul side of the right-field line. The ball was located about midway between the first-base bag and the foul pole."


"In a spring training game in Goodyear, Ariz., Hamilton took off on a dead run and caught a ball in relatively deep left field. Jerry Walker, special assistant to Reds general manager Walt Jocketty, told Bavasi it might have been the greatest catch he has ever seen. That's saying something, given that Walker signed with Baltimore in 1957 and has spent the ensuing 55 years in professional ball in some capacity."

I know it's only anecdotal evidence, but based on stories like that, it seems like it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think Hamilton could be a very solid CFer. Also, the article notes Hamilton turned down a scholarship to play wide receiver in the SEC, and I imagine some of the same skills that made him a good wide receiver would translate to being a good CFer.

Homer Bailey
08-14-2012, 02:11 PM
I really hope Hamilton wears number 33 when he comes up.

Signed,

A Josh Hamilton Jersey Owner

Big Klu
08-14-2012, 03:33 PM
I really hope Hamilton wears number 33 when he comes up.

Signed,

A Josh Hamilton Jersey Owner

Jose Arredondo is currently wearing 33. My guess is that if Billy Hamilton gets called up this season he will be issued 7.

Wonderful Monds
08-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Jose Arredondo is currently wearing 33. My guess is that if Billy Hamilton gets called up this season he will be issued 7.

Do we already have a #3?

Big Klu
08-14-2012, 04:17 PM
Do we already have a #3?

#3 is currently issued to Chris Valaika, though they could work around it since he is in the minors and might not get called up. The Reds normally don't operate that way unless it's for an established player, though.

traderumor
08-14-2012, 04:20 PM
Currently issued to Chris Valaika, though they could work around it since he is in the minors and might not get called up. The Reds normally don't operate that way unless it's for an established player, though.gotta be low single digit, 1 or 2, maybe even double aught. What was Herb Washington's number? That would be a good one.

EDIT: Washington was 3.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2012, 04:21 PM
I'd like to see him wear #22. I can't remember a Red wearing that number.

traderumor
08-14-2012, 04:21 PM
I'd like to see him wear #22. I can't remember a Red wearing that number.Billy Hatcher

camisadelgolf
08-14-2012, 04:40 PM
#3 is currently issued to Chris Valaika, though they could work around it since he is in the minors and might not get called up. The Reds normally don't operate that way unless it's for an established player, though.
Valaika is out of options next season, so I expect him to get DFAed before Opening Day.

Wonderful Monds
08-14-2012, 04:50 PM
I'd like to see him wear #22. I can't remember a Red wearing that number.

Eric Milton :eek:

Big Klu
08-14-2012, 04:51 PM
gotta be low single digit, 1 or 2, maybe even double aught. What was Herb Washington's number? That would be a good one.

EDIT: Washington was 3.

#1 is retired for manager Fred Hutchinson.
#2 is current SS Zack Cozart.
#3 is minor-league INF Chris Valaika.
#4 is multiple All-Star and Gold Glove-winning 2B Brandon Phillips.
#5 is retired for Hall-Of-Fame C Johnny Bench.
#6 is current CF Drew Stubbs.
#7 is open.
#8 is retired for Hall-Of-Fame 2B Joe Morgan.
#9 is minor-league INF/OF Willie Harris.

The Reds normally don't bump a minor-leaguer off his number for another minor-leaguer. They usually do it only for an established major-leaguer. For example, Drew Sutton wore #27 for the Reds in 2009 until Walt acquired Scott Rolen. Sutton was then given #15.

Current unassigned numbers under 60 are #7, #16, #36, and #56.




I'd like to see him wear #22. I can't remember a Red wearing that number.

Off the top of my head:

Dan Driessen
Sal Butera
Dave Collins (2nd tour of duty)
Billy Hatcher
Thomas Howard
Ruben Sierra
Jon Nunnally
Brady Clark
Corky Miller (1st tour of duty)
Eric Milton

puca
08-14-2012, 05:16 PM
#1 is retired for manager Fred Hutchinson.
#2 is current SS Zack Cozart.
#3 is minor-league INF Chris Valaika.
#4 is multiple All-Star and Gold Glove-winning 2B Brandon Phillips.
#5 is retired for Hall-Of-Fame C Johnny Bench.
#6 is current CF Drew Stubbs.
#7 is open.
#8 is retired for Hall-Of-Fame 2B Joe Morgan.
#9 is minor-league INF/OF Willie Harris.

The Reds normally don't bump a minor-leaguer off his number for another minor-leaguer. They usually do it only for an established major-leaguer. For example, Drew Sutton wore #27 for the Reds in 2009 until Walt acquired Scott Rolen. Sutton was then given #15.

Current unassigned numbers under 60 are #7, #16, #36, and #56.





Off the top of my head:

Dan Driessen
Sal Butera
Dave Collins (2nd tour of duty)
Billy Hatcher
Thomas Howard
Ruben Sierra
Jon Nunnally
Brady Clark
Corky Miller (1st tour of duty)
Eric Milton

Off the top of your head? That's simply amazing. I can't even remember what number I wore in little league.

Big Klu
08-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Off the top of your head? That's simply amazing. I can't even remember what number I wore in little league.

I'm slipping. I forgot Cecil Espy. :(


I wore #49 my first year of T-ball, and #14 my second year. I wore #9 my first two years of Little League, and #14 my last two years. (I also wore #14 in Babe Ruth ball.)

Sabo Fan
08-14-2012, 07:00 PM
Jerry Crasnick wrote up an article (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8259517/cincinnati-reds-prospect-billy-hamilton-fast-track) on Billy Hamilton today. A few of the highlights:





I know it's only anecdotal evidence, but based on stories like that, it seems like it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think Hamilton could be a very solid CFer. Also, the article notes Hamilton turned down a scholarship to play wide receiver in the SEC, and I imagine some of the same skills that made him a good wide receiver would translate to being a good CFer.

So either those stories cement that Hamilton is a freak of nature, or his teamates are all just constantly daydreaming on the field. Maybe both.

I'm all for letting him try out CF and giving him ample time to adjust. I don't have much doubt he can cover some serious ground due to his speed, but that doesn't make him a plus defensive CF alone. Deion was blazing fast too and I can't say I remember him playing much CF, if any. He was almost always in LF, though I think that was due to his arm if memory serves, and I don't recall his routes or recognition of the ball off the bat ever being what I would call impressive. That's my biggest concern with Hamilton. There's only so much of that you can teach. Sometimes a guy just has to have that sixth sense about him and while you can coach him up and make some marginal improvements in those areas, I think those things are instinctive as much as anything.

I hate to reference my own playing career (topped out at HS, though I did have quite the distinguished college softball intramural career), but there were always guys on my team who were much more physically gifted than me, but who couldn't judge a flyball to save their lives and certainly couldn't take the correct route to a ball. That was something I always prided myself on but yet it's not something I ever recall being taught, it was just an instinct, second nature really. Trying to explain it to someone else was always difficult because it's not mechanical or technical like hitting or pitching can be. Sure those both have some instinctive things to them, but there's so much more "feel" involved in defense, especially in the OF.

Hamilton's a special athlete in many respects, but I think it's unfair to expect that because he's blazing fast he can automatically be an elite CFer. Speed can make up for a lot defensively but if the choice is between an average CF or an above-average LFer, then I say stick him in left and forget about it. Of course if the Reds did what I wanted to do with him he'd be playing in another organization come next year, but that's a different debate altogether.

Chip R
08-14-2012, 11:45 PM
As much as I hate agreeing with Bowden, I think that the best position for Hamilton will end up being LF. I know he's fast (which is an understatement) but just assuming because he can run like the wind that he'll be above average in CF is a big leap. He's got time to learn, but as dependant as this team has become on having a fly-catcher in CF I'd rather not take a chance on a converted SS at a premium defensive position. No harm in letting him try it out in the minors, but lets not get too disappointed if LF is the better fit.

I'd rather he play another position than LF unless the Reds can get a consistent power hitter in CF or SS. If they can get an Eric Davis to play CF or a Barry Larkin for SS then put him in LF. Otherwise you are probably going to have 4 positions (catcher being the other one) that are power black holes.

Vottomatic
08-14-2012, 11:49 PM
With Cozart playing solid, if not above average defense. And Gregorius considered a plus defender. I see no reason not to move Hamilton to CF.

I think they didn't want to move him while he was chasing the minor league stolen base record, though.

As for a September callup. Seems like it will be more to sell tickets. I don't see him playing much.

757690
08-19-2012, 11:27 PM
If the Reds have the current lead or bigger on Sept 1st, I hope they don't bring up Hamilton. In a tight race, one SB could mean a Division crown, but with a 5+ game lead in the last month, I see no need to call him up.

reds44
08-22-2012, 07:42 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/22/hamilton-under-consideration-for-callup/


“It’s been discussed,” Baker said. “It’s not my decision. You’ve got a lot factor here. Once you put him on the roster, you’ve got to keep him on the roster. . . We’ve asked about him big time. But there’s more factors.”

I went back and looked, and in 2010 the Reds only carried 11 pitchers in the playoffs. So if you think about putting him on the roster, here's what the numbers look like:

Hanigan
Mesoraco
Votto
Phillips
Cozart
Rolen
Ludwick
Stubbs
Bruce
Paul
Heisey
Valdez
Frazier

That leaves spot #14 up to either Hamilton or Cairo.

OesterPoster
08-22-2012, 07:47 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/22/hamilton-under-consideration-for-callup/



I went back and looked, and in 2010 the Reds only carried 11 pitchers in the playoffs. So if you think about putting him on the roster, here's what the numbers look like:

Hanigan
Mesoraco
Votto
Phillips
Cozart
Rolen
Ludwick
Stubbs
Bruce
Paul
Heisey
Valdez
Frazier

That leaves spot #14 up to either Hamilton or Cairo.

And if Frazier is off the bench, or Rolen, or Ludwick...they all make Cairo's position redundant.

Vottomatic
08-22-2012, 11:19 PM
I've come around on this idea.

Simply from remembering some comments from either a coach or announcer from Bakersfield I heard interviewed who laughed and talked about how fun it is to watch the pitchers squirm when Billy gets on base. He makes them nervous and it makes for some interesting things. He would be a huge distraction if he pinch ran. The pitcher could lose focus on the batter while paying so much attention to Billy. It would be an interesting, good thing.

What if Hanigan or some other slow Reds hitter got a double or triple late in a close game. Can you imagine Dusty inserting Hamilton to pinch run? That would be interesting.

klw
08-22-2012, 11:45 PM
I'd like to see him wear #22. I can't remember a Red wearing that number.

It is a bit out of date but:

http://www.affordablehomegoods.com/reds/uniform_numbers.htm


Mel Queen (1965), Dan Driessen (1973,1976,1978-1984), Kurt Stillwell (1986), Sal Butera (1987), Billy Hatcher (1990,1992)

AmarilloRed
08-22-2012, 11:49 PM
I don't think they should do it unless the Reds feel he's ready to hit major league pitching next year. Otherwise, it just looks like a publicity stunt.

vic715
08-23-2012, 12:08 AM
They don't need him to hit.He would be a good asset to the bench purely as a pinch runner.

kaldaniels
10-15-2012, 02:50 PM
I'm not complaining about not bringing up Billy, as the Giants series contained too many "what ifs" to count.

However one of the more intriguing "what ifs" is regarding the 8th inning of game 3. Votto on first, 1 out. Pitchers duel. Tied at 1.

If you had BH on the bench, would you have considered pinch running for Votto and telling BH to try to get to 3rd? Push him across and you bring in Chap to close out the series.

Again, no bad feelings about the non-callup, but my brains been thinking about that possibilty.

11larkin11
10-15-2012, 02:53 PM
I'm not complaining about not bringing up Billy, as the Giants series contained too many "what ifs" to count.

However one the more intriguing "what ifs" is regarding the 8th inning of game 3. Votto on first, 1 out. Pitchers duel. Tied at 1.

If you had BH on the bench, would you have considered pinch running for Votto and telling BH to try to get to 3rd? Push him across and you bring in Chap to close out the series.

Again, no bad feelings about the non-callup, but my brains been thinking about that possibilty.

Reds fans would go absolutely insane and call for Dusty's head for pulling Votto if it didn't work. Then you go into extras without your best hitter, albeit a pure singles hitter at that point in time.

Slyder
10-15-2012, 03:03 PM
Reds fans would go absolutely insane and call for Dusty's head for pulling Votto if it didn't work. Then you go into extras without your best hitter, albeit a pure singles hitter at that point in time.

You saw the difference between Bochy and Dusty in game management styles. Bochy blew through a good chunk of his bench by what the 6th and outo of guys in the 8th inning? You go for the win if you have that option available for you because much like Stubbs, Hamilton could score on many extra base hits. To me it is kind of like the whole "batting lefties back to back", you're potentially weakening yourself for something that may or may not happen.

OesterPoster
10-15-2012, 03:07 PM
I'm not complaining about not bringing up Billy, as the Giants series contained too many "what ifs" to count.

However one the more intriguing "what ifs" is regarding the 8th inning of game 3. Votto on first, 1 out. Pitchers duel. Tied at 1.

If you had BH on the bench, would you have considered pinch running for Votto and telling BH to try to get to 3rd? Push him across and you bring in Chap to close out the series.

Again, no bad feelings about the non-callup, but my brains been thinking about that possibilty.

I recall the exact moment, because I turned to the guy standing next to me at the game, and said, "I sure would like to see Billy Hamilton pinch running for Votto right now."

Chip R
10-15-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm not complaining about not bringing up Billy, as the Giants series contained too many "what ifs" to count.

However one of the more intriguing "what ifs" is regarding the 8th inning of game 3. Votto on first, 1 out. Pitchers duel. Tied at 1.

If you had BH on the bench, would you have considered pinch running for Votto and telling BH to try to get to 3rd? Push him across and you bring in Chap to close out the series.

Again, no bad feelings about the non-callup, but my brains been thinking about that possibilty.

Bob Boone used to do stuff like that all the time. Someone like Casey or LaRue or Dunn would get on in the late innings and they would get pinch run for. The Reds bullpen was so bad that invariably the other team would tie it up or go ahead and that spot would come up in the batting order with some lesser hitter in that spot.

It's tempting to do that but it's not usually a good idea to take your best hitter out of the lineup no matter how hobbled he may be.

TOBTTReds
10-15-2012, 07:54 PM
I recall the exact moment, because I turned to the guy standing next to me at the game, and said, "I sure would like to see Billy Hamilton pinch running for Votto right now."

Same here.

GAC
10-16-2012, 08:25 AM
I remember that situation well, and was saying the same thing myself concerning possibly pulling Votto with a faster pinch runner. They could have used Paul, Heisey, or Valdez in that situation. But if they had done so, then who plays 1B? They had already used Frazier as a PHer.

But the bigger problem was the guy at the plate (Ludwick) who provided the Giants with that crucial second out by striking out. So would it have mattered much IF Hamilton was in there, and SOMEHOW even made it to 3B?

The next batter (Bruce) popped out to the SS to end the inning.

This was the Red's problem in those last three games.... they just couldn't come through with that crucial hit, capitalize, when they needed to.

I guess if some want to yell because Hamilton wasn't a September call-up that's fine, but it was Jocketty, not Baker's, decision. And I agreed with it too. This article gives some pretty sound reasons that, IMO, back up Jocketty (Red's) decision too...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1318307-why-did-reds-pass-on-using-billy-hamiltons-nightmarish-speed-in-september