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View Full Version : Votto out additional 7-10 days



Blitz Dorsey
08-11-2012, 03:15 PM
Returned to Cincinnati yesterday to have minor procedure on knee, per Tom Groeschen of the Enquirer on Twitter:

"Votto returned to Cincy last night and had minor procedure to remove piece of floating cartilage. Add 7-10 days to recovery time. #reds"

edabbs44
08-11-2012, 03:18 PM
Ugh. Never good when there is an additional procedure.

Tom Servo
08-11-2012, 03:26 PM
Doesn't bode well for our chances of staying ahead of Pittsburgh :(

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Luckily we have the Cubs, Mets and Cubs to deal with. But then... at Philly, at home vs. St. Louis, and at Arizona. Let's hope he's back just in time.

LoganBuck
08-11-2012, 03:28 PM
Makes the decision to not acquire Overbay look less and less attractive. Say hello to more Miguel Cairo. :thumbdown:

edabbs44
08-11-2012, 03:34 PM
Doesn't bode well for our chances of staying ahead of Pittsburgh :(

The Reds are better than Pitt with or w/o Votto.

Tom Servo
08-11-2012, 03:34 PM
Makes the decision to not acquire Overbay look less and less attractive. Say hello to more Miguel Cairo. :thumbdown:
Overbay is still available, hopefully this would change Walt's mind.

RedEye
08-11-2012, 03:38 PM
Unfortunate indeed. So we're talking 7-10 days beyond the original, which would put his return in early September?

fisch11
08-11-2012, 03:44 PM
Unfortunate indeed. So we're talking 7-10 days beyond the original, which would put his return in early September?

July 17th was original surgery with 3-4 week recovery time. 7-10 additional days puts him somewhere between August 21-24. So we are looking at Phillies or Cardinals series more than likely. It was sounding like he was eyeing this upcoming home stand with sliding being last challenge. So if you assume he was coming back on the 14th, then add 7-10 days to that.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Makes the decision to not acquire Overbay look less and less attractive. Say hello to more Miguel Cairo. :thumbdown:

Yeah. With Votto out and Rolen being injury prone, it was fairly obvious the Reds needed to add another bat. Yet the Reds stood pat. They have to make a move now.

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 03:54 PM
Yeah. With Votto out and Rolen being injury prone, it was fairly obvious the Reds needed to add another bat. Yet the Reds stood pat. They have to make a move now.

In fairness to management, we have gone 17-8 without Votto. It's not like the ship's been sinking and they stood by and did nothing. I'm sure they will do something to shore up the bench by the end of August.

Kc61
08-11-2012, 04:27 PM
If Votto and Rolen will both be out much longer, Reds should add a first or third baseman. Otherwise they will be using either Valdez or Cairo in the lineup every day.

marcshoe
08-11-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm not feeling well.

powersackers
08-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Soto is hitting his stride.

nate
08-11-2012, 05:19 PM
It sounded like a pretty minor procedure.

alexad
08-11-2012, 05:26 PM
It sounded like a pretty minor procedure.

Any surgery is never minor. And remember Dr. K is doing it.

nate
08-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Any surgery is never minor. And remember Dr. K is doing it.

On the scale of "brain transplant" to "wart removal," this surgery sounded rather more towards the latter.

As Dr. Kremchek is one of the most respected sports surgeons in the country, even better.

Big Klu
08-11-2012, 05:51 PM
Any surgery is never minor. And remember Dr. K is doing it.

Reds trainear Paul Lessard said that the entire procedure took about six minutes.

edabbs44
08-11-2012, 06:12 PM
Did they say if they gave him an MRI at any point? :)

nate
08-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Did they say if they gave him an MRI at any point? :)

They equipped him with new "MRI pants."

:cool:

redsfandan
08-11-2012, 06:18 PM
Unfortunate indeed. So we're talking 7-10 days beyond the original, which would put his return in early September?

I doubt it would be that long. They'd want to have him back by the end of the month for the stretch run and the playoffs.

Big Klu
08-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Did they say if they gave him an MRI at any point? :)

Yes. He had an MRI done the same day.

Edskin
08-11-2012, 06:33 PM
The ripping of Dr. Kremcheck might be my favorite all-time RZ topic.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2012, 07:07 PM
Didn't Griffey wait until at least his 2nd year to start having health issues?

I'm sorry....but the guy never has been hurt and now in his 1st year of that contract not only him but Phillips start getting these injuries..... it's too much for the paranoid mind of a Reds fan to take..... i cannot be believe this is not some cosmic payback still for the Reds run from 1961-1981. ;)

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 07:20 PM
I hear he needs his leg amputated and will return by the end of August with a prosthetic leg!

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2012, 07:23 PM
I hear he needs his leg amputated and will return by the end of August with a prosthetic leg!

You know what......sarcasm duly noted. :laugh:

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 07:26 PM
You know what......sarcasm duly noted. :laugh:

Oh that wasn't in response to you, was just having some fun :). I've been hyperventilating about this all day. You'd think he had a torn MCL, ACL, PCL, and UCL the way I reacted to the news. I just want him back, is all :(.

Big Klu
08-11-2012, 08:25 PM
Joey Votto, baseball player. A man barely alive.

Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic first baseman. Joey Votto will be that first baseman. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.

Raisor
08-11-2012, 08:41 PM
Joey Votto, baseball player. A man barely alive.

Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic first baseman. Joey Votto will be that first baseman. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.

Please get out of my brain. I was coming here to post this exactly.

traderumor
08-11-2012, 08:44 PM
The ripping of Dr. Kremcheck might be my favorite all-time RZ topic.I've never seen someone so handy with a saw. ;)

OldXOhio
08-11-2012, 08:45 PM
In fairness to management, we have gone 17-8 without Votto. It's not like the ship's been sinking and they stood by and did nothing. I'm sure they will do something to shore up the bench by the end of August.

In fairness to you, I'll say I agree with your reasoning behind mgmt's handling of this. That and Walt just doesn't seem to do much in the way of deadline dealings any more. All of that said, the Reds weaknesses were obvious, regardless of the record. It really bothers me that they may have justified standing pat based on a current winning streak. I would hope they weren't that short sighted.

traderumor
08-11-2012, 08:46 PM
I hear he needs his leg amputated and will return by the end of August with a prosthetic leg!A cheetah leg. Bud is consulting the IOC on how to handle.

cincrazy
08-11-2012, 08:49 PM
In fairness to you, I'll say I agree with your reasoning behind mgmt's handling of this. That and Walt just doesn't seem to do much in the way of deadline dealings any more. All of that said, the Reds weaknesses were obvious, regardless of the record. It really bothers me that they may have justified standing pat based on a current winning streak. I would hope they weren't that short sighted.

I think the game has changed, and Walt realizes that. And I think that's good for us. I definitely wanted a bat at the deadline, but if teams were asking for too much (as Walt said), I trust his judgment in the matter.

That being said, it's still frustrating our best options off the bench are Cairo and Valdez. That's putrid. No idea why we haven't signed Overbay. Would seemingly be a perfect fit.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2012, 08:59 PM
If Votto and Rolen will both be out much longer, Reds should add a first or third baseman. Otherwise they will be using either Valdez or Cairo in the lineup every day.

This 100%. But really, they should have made the move before this. Votto was out and Overbay simply was better than Cairo. So someone should've been brought in.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2012, 09:04 PM
If Votto and Rolen will both be out much longer, Reds should add a first or third baseman. Otherwise they will be using either Valdez or Cairo in the lineup every day.

Did I not say for the Reds to be pro-active in a game thread a week back...before the further Votto injury and now Rolen's again back issues came up?
You asked me what should they be pro-active about? Even without those 2 injuries....they sat around...again.....this time they played better but like last year, inertia sets in quickly around that front office.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2012, 09:06 PM
In fairness to you, I'll say I agree with your reasoning behind mgmt's handling of this. That and Walt just doesn't seem to do much in the way of deadline dealings any more. All of that said, the Reds weaknesses were obvious, regardless of the record. It really bothers me that they may have justified standing pat based on a current winning streak. I would hope they weren't that short sighted.

They were last year and it did not work...it has worked this year but I do not understand their inertia really. They treat this Team Chemistry thing with this team like a Faberge egg.... like if moving out a non-producing player is going to have the whole house of cards fall down.

traderumor
08-11-2012, 10:15 PM
They were last year and it did not work...it has worked this year but I do not understand their inertia really. They treat this Team Chemistry thing with this team like a Faberge egg.... like if moving out a non-producing player is going to have the whole house of cards fall down.You are begging the question about team chemistry being the primary purpose for inactivity on the position player side. There is no documentation that I'm aware of for that theory. And Chris Welsh saying it on the game broadcast doesn't count.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2012, 10:18 PM
You are begging the question about team chemistry being the primary purpose for inactivity on the position player side. There is no documentation that I'm aware of for that theory. And Chris Welsh saying it on the game broadcast doesn't count.

Just beacuse there is no documentation...I can form a reasoning that they value it to the point of inertia with changing the roster just to even bring in someone like a Kotsay to help.

kaldaniels
08-11-2012, 10:30 PM
I just want Walt to make a few decent trades a year, and I don't really care when. If there wasn't a good deal to be had at the deadline, then don't make one.

And upgrading from Cairo to Overby, yes it is an upgrade, but a pretty marginal one with 2 months to go. Looking at things from the outside, I'm not gonna drag Walt over the coals
for not getting Lyle.

traderumor
08-11-2012, 11:49 PM
Just beacuse there is no documentation...I can form a reasoning that they value it to the point of inertia with changing the roster just to even bring in someone like a Kotsay to help.Well, sure its plausible, but that wasn't your point. Your argument is that no roster moves is a result of being overly concerned about team chemistry. That assumes that when a team makes moves, it is going to negatively impact this area. It also assumes that is the primary reason that only the Broxton deal was done. Xavier Paul was brought in from the scrap heap. Maybe they're doing background checks before they even kick the tires, I don't know, but I think the "team chemistry" argument for lack of deadline deals is unlikely. For example, did they really not deal for Victorino because he wasn't a good clubhouse guy? I think its more that there wasn't a fit between the Reds and another team until the Broxton deal came along. I just have a hard time understanding the perspective that the Reds declined deals that would improve an area because someone's feelings might get hurt. I also think that it makes for good narrative for fans and announcers to bandy about, but when you're looking to improve in the pennant race, you'll manage to get along with a jerk for a few months if he's gonna help you get to the playoffs.

WildcatFan
08-12-2012, 03:08 AM
If there was any chance for a second MVP award, I guess it's out the window. Barring a complete collapse, McCutchen had in the bag anyway, I guess. Oh well, we've still got the Cy Young and ROY, right?

GAC
08-12-2012, 07:41 AM
Is it pronounced Overbay or Oy Vey? :D

mth123
08-12-2012, 08:04 AM
Is it pronounced Overbay or Oy Vey? :D

I've been after the Reds to get more LH hitting for a couple years now. IMO, Overbay or Branyan isn't the answer though. Get Dejesus, Kotsay or Venable. Otherwise, I'd give H-Rod a look and keep Xavier Paul around.

The Reds really need to make a decision on Rolen. If he hits the DL, I'd call up H-Rod to play 3B with Frazier at 1B. I'd still pursue some one from outside the organization.

Blitz Dorsey
08-13-2012, 09:47 AM
There's no way to measure it and I understand the arguments on both sides, but I'm adamant that team chemistry is a very-important (usually underrated) aspect of sports. Is overall team talent more important than team chemistry? Absolutely. However, team chemistry is still important.

That said, I'm not sure how Miguel Cairo hitting .150 and Wilson Valdez about ready to join him on the interstate helps with team chemistry. Valdez wasn't even on the team last year. Also, the Reds could "invent" an injury for Cairo until the rosters expand in September, which would allow them to add a guy like Overbay without dropping anyone from the current roster.

And are we really worried about "hurting someone's feelings" when we're in a pennant race? Cairo is not getting the job done and suddenly he's a guy who's needed due to the injuries to Votto and Rolen. Although, I suspect Rolen will be back soon, so Frazier will be getting most of the starts at first until Votto gets back. And let's keep something very important in mind: Votto won't be out much longer unless there's another setback. We're talking another 2 weeks max. Let's hold the fort down for 2 weeks and we'll be fine.

Tony Cloninger
08-13-2012, 11:08 AM
I am more concerned moving forward as to how Votto is going to be having knee problems already. Does Berkman not have or had the same issues? Even with surgery...does this stuff not linger and then become an issue of the cartilage deteriorating as he continue splaying? I am terrible at this doctor stuff.

reds44
08-13-2012, 02:04 PM
The ripping of Dr. Kremcheck might be my favorite all-time RZ topic.
Yeah I love people asking for guys to be fired based off something they literally no nothing about. It's fantastic.

dsmith421
08-13-2012, 02:07 PM
Would be great to have him back for that three-game series against St. Louis which happens to be in roughly 10 days' time.

DGullett35
08-13-2012, 02:12 PM
On the broadcast yesterday Welsh made the comment that hed be back for the start of the 4 game series in Philly. Hopefully this is the last set-back and things are good to go from here. I miss watching him bat more than anything:(

The Voice of IH
08-13-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't understand how Dr. Kremcheck can be responsible for Votto hurting himself while rehabing.

Always Red
08-13-2012, 02:58 PM
I don't understand how Dr. Kremcheck can be responsible for Votto hurting himself while rehabing.

The torches and pitchforks crowd must have their pound of flesh.

With his gigantic ego, Kremchek is an easy target.

As for me, I'm far more concerned about long term arthritis or worse, in that knee, going forward.

cumberlandreds
08-13-2012, 03:09 PM
I don't understand how Dr. Kremcheck can be responsible for Votto hurting himself while rehabing.

Don't you know he intentionally left that piece of cartilidge a little loose so it would break off during rehab. Then he would another billable surgery to the Reds. ;)

WildcatFan
08-13-2012, 04:48 PM
From Tom Groeschen:


Behind the scenes, the Reds believe Joey Votto could return during their series at Philadelphia next Monday-Thursday but that a more realistic goal is the St. Louis series (Aug. 24-26) in Cincinnati.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/13/the-latest-on-when-votto-might-return/

Strikes Out Looking
08-13-2012, 04:54 PM
I have to disagree with many of you on Kremchek. Regardless of the Votto incident, I believe the Reds, in the interests of the franchise, need to review their medical staffing and see if it might be in their interests to at the very least have another doctor around for evaulations of the players.

SunDeck
08-13-2012, 05:34 PM
Having cartilage removed from a knee a few decades ago meant a player was out for a long time. Arthroscopic surgery may not be as invasive, but it's still knee surgery and having had my own bouts of meniscus problems in the past, it is not alarming or surprising to me that his rehab needs to be extended. The human knee is a terrible joint, poorly designed and unable to withstand the stresses we place on it, especially if we happen to run, stop, jump, etc. for a living.
What it often needs is simply time. Here's a case in point. My left knee currently has torn lateral meniscus, which has not been removed because it doesn't bother me constantly. However, it flares up occasionally and after a few weeks of not running, it feels better.

How did I hurt it? Slide tackling in a soccer game and I imagine it's the same issue Votto's having; when you tuck that leg underneath and jump on it, the knee joint is twisted and torqued. Not something it likes to do.

reds44
08-13-2012, 05:35 PM
I have to disagree with many of you on Kremchek. Regardless of the Votto incident, I believe the Reds, in the interests of the franchise, need to review their medical staffing and see if it might be in their interests to at the very least have another doctor around for evaulations of the players.
Why? What do you know about the medical field? What is Kremchek doing wrong?

It's like when something goes bad somebody HAS to be at fault.

SunDeck
08-13-2012, 05:35 PM
A cheetah leg. Bud is consulting the IOC on how to handle.

Won't that make him run in circles? All right I suppose, if it's always going to be a left turn.

Chip R
08-13-2012, 06:00 PM
I have to disagree with many of you on Kremchek. Regardless of the Votto incident, I believe the Reds, in the interests of the franchise, need to review their medical staffing and see if it might be in their interests to at the very least have another doctor around for evaulations of the players.

Players are more than welcome to get a second opinion. It's actually in the BAsic Agreement.

RANDY IN INDY
08-13-2012, 06:02 PM
Having cartilage removed from a knee a few decades ago meant a player was out for a long time. Arthroscopic surgery may not be as invasive, but it's still knee surgery and having had my own bouts of meniscus problems in the past, it is not alarming or surprising to me that his rehab needs to be extended. The human knee is a terrible joint, poorly designed and unable to withstand the stresses we place on it, especially if we happen to run, stop, jump, etc. for a living.
What it often needs is simply time. Here's a case in point. My left knee currently has torn lateral meniscus, which has not been removed because it doesn't bother me constantly. However, it flares up occasionally and after a few weeks of not running, it feels better.

How did I hurt it? Slide tackling in a soccer game and I imagine it's the same issue Votto's having; when you tuck that leg underneath and jump on it, the knee joint is twisted and torqued. Not something it likes to do.

I had 5 pieces of cartilage removed from my left knee several years ago. It had been floating around in there for a long time and finally got caught in the back side of my knee and locked me up. When they did x-rays, it looked like someone had taken a tack hammer and knocked pieces out of the outside of the meniscus. It was from the repeated pounding of tucking that left leg under when sliding. It also did not help that I took a shot to the outside of that knee when playing football as a youngster. The Dr. said that was probably the beginning and the pounding of baseball slides over the years did the rest. I have another piece that randomly floats around since the surgery. Bothersome at times but not enough to have the surgery again.

The Voice of IH
08-13-2012, 06:04 PM
The torches and pitchforks crowd must have their pound of flesh.

With his gigantic ego, Kremchek is an easy target.

As for me, I'm far more concerned about long term arthritis or worse, in that knee, going forward.

lol, well he did after all go to a great high school where only great people graduate from :laugh:

Back on topic, I read on Redszone when news first came down of Votto's original injury that a poster forgot the last time a knee injury only lasted a few weeks, and that it usually turns out to be an on going, never ending thing. My fear is that this additional ten days turns into 20 or 25 days and so forth.

I hope that Votto returns soon obviously, but I want more also. I need him to be healthy and very well rested. If he comes back against St. Louis (which is my personal hope) he will have been out of the game for 38 days. Obviously he has done his own personal regiment and has worked hard over this period but I need him to be stronger and more rested than anyone else from then to the World Series.

There will be 37 regular season games left when the Reds take the field against the Cardinals. If Votto would to go on a tear through them and into the postseason the chips could all be falling into place for a Red October.

Blitz Dorsey
08-13-2012, 06:45 PM
Yeah I love people asking for guys to be fired based off something they literally no nothing about. It's fantastic.

I know, I can't stand when people who have never been doctors criticize doctors.

Kind of reminds me of people who have never been managers criticizing managers.

(Anyone else notice the hypocrisy in saying it's ridiculous to criticize a doctor if you're not a doctor, but it's completely acceptable to rip everything a manager/coach does, even if you've never been a manager/coach?)

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 06:48 PM
(Anyone else notice the hypocrisy in saying it's ridiculous to criticize a doctor if you're not a doctor, but it's completely acceptable to rip everything a manager/coach does, even if you've never been a manager/coach?)

No. This is an incredible reach.

Blitz Dorsey
08-13-2012, 06:49 PM
I have to disagree with many of you on Kremchek. Regardless of the Votto incident, I believe the Reds, in the interests of the franchise, need to review their medical staffing and see if it might be in their interests to at the very least have another doctor around for evaulations of the players.

Agreed. Could anyone really argue that it would be a bad idea for the Reds to at least explore their options? If there's not a better option out there, then fine. But at least check the market and find out.

And no one is faulting Kremchek for Votto's setback. That happened when he was sliding. Not Kremchek's fault. But there's a long list of other things that have happened in the past that have some Reds fans wondering about Kremchek. No need to re-hash the entire list, but suffice to say we're not just talking about the Votto incident here.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 06:59 PM
No. This is an incredible reach.

I think it's quite a fair point myself.

Both professions require decisions based on the best information available, and the information given to a doctor or manager is more than we're privy to as fans.

It's easy to sit back in a swivel chair in front a computer with a run expectancy chart and saying Dusty should do this or that (although most second-guessing is out of emotion more than logic anyhow), but unless someone has actually had to manage the people that actually suit up in the uniform, it's all numbers to us. It's actual people to the manager.

Patrick Bateman
08-13-2012, 07:54 PM
I think it's quite a fair point myself.

Both professions require decisions based on the best information available, and the information given to a doctor or manager is more than we're privy to as fans.

It's easy to sit back in a swivel chair in front a computer with a run expectancy chart and saying Dusty should do this or that (although most second-guessing is out of emotion more than logic anyhow), but unless someone has actually had to manage the people that actually suit up in the uniform, it's all numbers to us. It's actual people to the manager.

I think its fair to say that the information required to make in a batting order or on the baseball field is not only significantly less complex, but also much more easily obtainable to the general public than it is in evaluating medical conditions.

Strikes Out Looking
08-13-2012, 08:48 PM
Agreed. Could anyone really argue that it would be a bad idea for the Reds to at least explore their options? If there's not a better option out there, then fine. But at least check the market and find out.

And no one is faulting Kremchek for Votto's setback. That happened when he was sliding. Not Kremchek's fault. But there's a long list of other things that have happened in the past that have some Reds fans wondering about Kremchek. No need to re-hash the entire list, but suffice to say we're not just talking about the Votto incident here.

Agreed. I was criticized earlier in the thread -- I was asked what I knew about the medical profession. I'm not a doctor, so I guess the answer is I don't know as much about medicine as Kremcheck. However, I also think the same question could be asked on this site when someone questions Dusty's managerial prowess or Walt's General Managing. So, I think questioning the Red's medical staff is fair game.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 09:02 PM
I think its fair to say that the information required to make in a batting order or on the baseball field is not only significantly less complex, but also much more easily obtainable to the general public than it is in evaluating medical conditions.

Only to a small degree. Lineup construction is theoretical. Truth is, we can't know ever how a lineup would work. It's based on false assumptions that players aren't pitched differently or react differently with different spots in the order.

It's a manager's job to not only construct a lineup based on skill, but based on how players are able to handle a role psychologically as well as physically. Some players aren't as comfortable in different spots in the order as they are others. That's an emotional part of the game we as fans do not have access to, whereas the manager would be more privy to it.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 09:19 PM
Agreed. I was criticized earlier in the thread -- I was asked what I knew about the medical profession. I'm not a doctor, so I guess the answer is I don't know as much about medicine as Kremcheck. However, I also think the same question could be asked on this site when someone questions Dusty's managerial prowess or Walt's General Managing. So, I think questioning the Red's medical staff is fair game.

Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.

Aside from actual doctors, no one on this board has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to Kremchek performing a knee surgery. Absolutely no idea. Can anyone tell me what Kremchek should have done differently? Should he have been more cautious when scoping his knee? I can't even come up with a hypothetical question to ask here because I know next to nothing about what it takes to perform a knee surgery. What I can tell you is that Logan Ondrusek is not an 8th inning pitcher, that bunts are extremely unproductive, that Corey Patterson should not be a leadoff hitter, etc. A manager's decision making is very public, and fair game to be criticized. Kremchek's decision making/performance is not. I don't have to have major league baseball experience to have an opinion on Dusty's decision making. Sometimes I'm right and Dusty is wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong, and Dusty is right. In no way is that comparable to Kremchek's "performance." Those throwing the stones at Kremchek have literally no idea what they are talking about. Unless they can specifically tell me how he should have performed the surgery differently (which would mean they would have to have been there to watch him perform the first surgery), the situation is 100% not comparable.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 09:27 PM
Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.

Aside from actual doctors, no one on this board has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to Kremchek performing a knee surgery. Absolutely no idea. Can anyone tell me what Kremchek should have done differently? Should he have been more cautious when scoping his knee? I can't even come up with a hypothetical question to ask here because I know next to nothing about what it takes to perform a knee surgery. What I can tell you is that Logan Ondrusek is not an 8th inning pitcher, that bunts are extremely unproductive, that Corey Patterson should not be a leadoff hitter, etc. A manager's decision making is very public, and fair game to be criticized. Kremchek's decision making/performance is not. I don't have to have major league baseball experience to have an opinion on Dusty's decision making. Sometimes I'm right and Dusty is wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong, and Dusty is right. In no way is that comparable to Kremchek's "performance." Those throwing the stones at Kremchek have literally no idea what they are talking about. Unless they can specifically tell me how he should have performed the surgery differently (which would mean they would have to have been there to watch him perform the first surgery), the situation is 100% not comparable.

Do these years of watching and discussing baseball qualify you or give you the credentials to be a big league manager? I don't mean that in a snide way, but unless you're suggesting you have the credentials to manage in the majors, then I would think some humility should be in order when criticizing those who do it for a living. Watching it on TV or discussing it on a message board is not the same as actually having to manage ballplayers for a living and making dynamic decisions that have thousands if not millions of possible scenarios that can play out.

I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario. That can't be true unless probability of success is at or near 100%. Most of the time, the probability is probably more along the lines of a coin flip on any given choice a manager makes.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 09:40 PM
Do these years of watching and discussing baseball qualify you or give you the credentials to be a big league manager? I don't mean that in a snide way, but unless you're suggesting you have the credentials to manage in the majors, then I would think some humility should be in order when criticizing those who do it for a living. Watching it on TV or discussing it on a message board is not the same as actually having to manage ballplayers for a living and making dynamic decisions that have thousands if not millions of possible scenarios that can play out.

I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario. That can't be true unless probability of success is at or near 100%. Most of the time, the probability is probably more along the lines of a coin flip on any given choice a manager makes.

Clearly, I do not have the credentials to be a major league manager. Never in the history of the game has there been a manager, coach, player, GM, etc. that has been above all criticism. Am I supposed to agree with every decision Dusty makes, just because he's the manager and he has more experience than me? Or does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong and subject to criticism?

There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario. But there is a decision that puts your team in the best position to win games, and puts your players in the best position to succeed. Dusty's decisions often do not do either of those. He often puts players in situations that are inappropriate because he wants a player to be something that he's not (see Ondrusek, Cozart, Patterson, Tavares, Rolen, etc.).

And over the course of a season, the "coin flip" scenarios you reference can add up. Dusty got bit by the Ondrusek move in a game against Houston. He got bailed out by Stubbs. Did he learn his lesson? No, less than two weeks later he puts him up against Alfonso Soriano, and he gets punished.

See what that is? That's pretty specific analysis. Specific things that Dusty has done that it is very reasonable to question. If I was spouting out about something like "What Dusty said to Jay Bruce in the locker room" or something that I literally knew nothing about (i.e. the Kremchek surgery), that would be ridiculous.

edabbs44
08-13-2012, 09:42 PM
It is amazing how well this team is doing when their manager often makes decisions that do not put the team in the best position to win games.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 09:48 PM
It is amazing how well this team is doing when their manager often makes decisions that do not put the team in the best position to win games.

It's amazing that you can make a general sweeping comment, seemingly dismissing the very specific points that I brought up, in an effort to make my thought out comment seem absurd, instead of arguing the actual point(s) made.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 09:58 PM
Clearly, I do not have the credentials to be a major league manager. Never in the history of the game has there been a manager, coach, player, GM, etc. that has been above all criticism. Am I supposed to agree with every decision Dusty makes, just because he's the manager and he has more experience than me? Or does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong and subject to criticism?

There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario. But there is a decision that puts your team in the best position to win games, and puts your players in the best position to succeed. Dusty's decisions often do not do either of those. He often puts players in situations that are inappropriate because he wants a player to be something that he's not (see Ondrusek, Cozart, Patterson, Tavares, Rolen, etc.).

And over the course of a season, the "coin flip" scenarios you reference can add up. Dusty got bit by the Ondrusek move in a game against Houston. He got bailed out by Stubbs. Did he learn his lesson? No, less than two weeks later he puts him up against Alfonso Soriano, and he gets punished.

See what that is? That's pretty specific analysis. Specific things that Dusty has done that it is very reasonable to question. If I was spouting out about something like "What Dusty said to Jay Bruce in the locker room" or something that I literally knew nothing about (i.e. the Kremchek surgery), that would be ridiculous.

Well, by your own agreement, there probably isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision to managing various scenarios that spring up in the course of a game, so to answer your above question "does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong," I would say obviously not. If there isn't a right or wrong answer, then I don't see how someone can be "blatantly wrong."

That doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism, but again, that criticism should be tempered considering none of us on this board have never managed a game in our lives, at least above the little league or high school level.

You suggest these scenarios add up. Well Dusty has a career winning percentage that places him in the upper 20 percentile of all managers that have ever managed at the major league level. You're right the scenarios are adding up, and they appear to be adding up in his favor.

Only 75 managers have a better winning percentage than Dusty. While anyone should be open to criticism, I think the narrative that his decisions are working against him has been proven to be on shaky ground given he's won so many games over the last 20 years. Heck, he's No. 7 among active managers in win percentage. At what point does that have to count for something?

Funny thing is, I never cared for Dusty when he got to Cincinnati. And he annoys me too. But he actually grew on me because I realized that whether I agree with how he does things or not, clearly it works. So who I am to criticize a style that has won him nearly 1,600 games? Honestly... I can't. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. You have always been good about recognizing hand-wringing of small samples, so I credit you for remembering that when the times come. I think managerial decisions should be treated the same way. Criticizing small decisions seems to be a major concern when clearly his overall track record speaks for itself. If so many of his individual decisions were truly not putting the club in the best position, it would eventually reflect in his overall record. It apparently has not, which leads me to the conclusion he knows what he's doing.

edabbs44
08-13-2012, 10:08 PM
It's amazing that you can make a general sweeping comment, seemingly dismissing the very specific points that I brought up, in an effort to make my thought out comment seem absurd, instead of arguing the actual point(s) made.

Two reasons for that. One, I am trying to get my daughter to sleep and am posting from the iPhone from her bedroom. Two, trying to discredit a manager with Dusty's track record by picking out certain one off decisions is ridiculous. If Dusty's use of Logan Ondrusek is this team's biggest concern, then we'll be ok.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 10:22 PM
Well, by your own agreement, there probably isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision to managing various scenarios that spring up in the course of a game, so to answer your above question "does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong," I would say obviously not. If there isn't a right or wrong answer, then I don't see how someone can be "blatantly wrong."

That doesn't mean he isn't open to criticism, but again, that criticism should be tempered considering none of us on this board have never managed a game in our lives, at least above the little league or high school level.

Sigh. You said:


I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario.

to which I said:


There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario.

That does not mean that there aren't scenarios when he makes a blatantly poor decision. Me having never managed a game has literally nothing to do with the fact that Dusty keeps putting Ondrusek in positions that he shouldn't be in.


You suggest these scenarios add up. Well Dusty has a career winning percentage that places him in the upper 20 percentile of all managers that have ever managed at the major league level. You're right the scenarios are adding up, and they appear to be adding up in his favor.

Only 75 managers have a better winning percentage than Dusty. While anyone should be open to criticism, I think the narrative that his decisions are working against him has been proven to be on shaky ground given he's won so many games over the last 20 years. Heck, he's No. 7 among active managers in win percentage. At what point does that have to count for something?

The managerial record argument is one of the worst in all of baseball, in my opinion. It's not basketball or baseball. Put the "best manager" in the game on the worst team, and it's still the worst team. Put the worst manager on the best team, and while it's probably still the best team, there is more a manager can do to bring down a team with his decision making than he can build up a team that is going to over achieve. Did Dusty all of a sudden become a bad manager in 2006 when the Cubs won 66 games? Was he still a bad manager when the Reds won 74 games? Did he magically become better in 2010 when the Reds won 91, only to suck again in 2011 to win 79 games? A teams record is more of a reflection of the actual ball players than it is the manager. That doesn't mean I can't have problems with a manager's decision making, especially when I have strong facts to support my opinions.


Funny thing is, I never cared for Dusty when he got to Cincinnati. And he annoys me too. But he actually grew on me because I realized that whether I agree with how he does things or not, clearly it works. So who I am to criticize a style that has won him nearly 1,600 games? Honestly... I can't. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. You have always been good about recognizing hand-wringing of small samples, so I credit you for remembering that when the times come. I think managerial decisions should be treated the same way. Criticizing small decisions seems to be a major concern when clearly his overall track record speaks for itself. If so many of his individual decisions were truly not putting the club in the best position, it would eventually reflect in his overall record. It apparently has not, which leads me to the conclusion he knows what he's doing.

I made a lengthy post this offseason summarizing my thoughts on Dusty. To summarize, there are two parts of managing a team - the locker room factor, and the decision making factor. I'm not going to pretend to understand the locker room factor, but I concede (by basically anyone that has covered him or played for him) that Dusty is excellent at this part. The part that is easiest to evaluate is the decision making, and Dusty drives me up a wall on this side of the coin. In my opinion, he deserves plenty of criticism for some of his philosophies and "Dustification" for his decisions.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 10:24 PM
Two reasons for that. One, I am trying to get my daughter to sleep and am posting from the iPhone from her bedroom. Two, trying to discredit a manager with Dusty's track record by picking out certain one off decisions is ridiculous. If Dusty's use of Logan Ondrusek is this team's biggest concern, then we'll be ok.

The Ondrusek citing was simply an example. If you want, I can go into full detail about all the things I disagree with Dusty on. I don't want to do that, and I doubt anyone truly cares to read that. And according to some, I shouldn't be allowed to criticize him because I'm not a major league manager.

membengal
08-13-2012, 10:30 PM
If someone could direct me to the "former major league managers forum" somewhere on these internets so I can lurk and read their dicussions, criticisms and praising of current managers managerial moves, I would be much obliged...I would very much like to linger there, given that they are the only ones who can engage in such discussions.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 10:42 PM
Sigh. You said:


to which I said:


That does not mean that there aren't scenarios when he makes a blatantly poor decision. Me having never managed a game has literally nothing to do with the fact that Dusty keeps putting Ondrusek in positions that he shouldn't be in.



The managerial record argument is one of the worst in all of baseball, in my opinion. It's not basketball or baseball. Put the "best manager" in the game on the worst team, and it's still the worst team. Put the worst manager on the best team, and while it's probably still the best team, there is more a manager can do to bring down a team with his decision making than he can build up a team that is going to over achieve. Did Dusty all of a sudden become a bad manager in 2006 when the Cubs won 66 games? Was he still a bad manager when the Reds won 74 games? Did he magically become better in 2010 when the Reds won 91, only to suck again in 2011 to win 79 games? A teams record is more of a reflection of the actual ball players than it is the manager. That doesn't mean I can't have problems with a manager's decision making, especially when I have strong facts to support my opinions.



I made a lengthy post this offseason summarizing my thoughts on Dusty. To summarize, there are two parts of managing a team - the locker room factor, and the decision making factor. I'm not going to pretend to understand the locker room factor, but I concede (by basically anyone that has covered him or played for him) that Dusty is excellent at this part. The part that is easiest to evaluate is the decision making, and Dusty drives me up a wall on this side of the coin. In my opinion, he deserves plenty of criticism for some of his philosophies and "Dustification" for his decisions.

I'm just a little confused because there seems to be a contradiction.

In the same response where you agreed with me that there isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision in managing a baseball game, you said prior to that:


Am I supposed to agree with every decision Dusty makes, just because he's the manager and he has more experience than me? Or does he sometimes make mistakes that are blatantly wrong and subject to criticism?

If there's not a right or wrong, then how can someone be blatantly wrong?

Arguing we shouldn't judge managers based on managerial record is like arguing we shouldn't judge defenders by any defensive metric. Both have major flaws, but in both cases, they're the best we've got.

I don't pretend managerial record is all or even mostly due to a manager. But for goodness sake's... baseball is a game where many games are decided by one or two runs. If the manager's decisions are as big as you're suggesting, then a bad manager would have a hard time consistently fielding a winning record even with a good team.

I don't think anyone is saying that because we're not big league managers, we can't criticize. But I do think that since none of us are big league managers, we should somewhat humble in criticizing as recognition that there a) isn't a right or wrong way, and b) we don't have the full perspective or knowledge to make decisions since we are not around the players every day and might not know every little thing that goes on.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 10:43 PM
If someone could direct me to the "former major league managers forum" somewhere on these internets so I can lurk there and read their dicussions, criticisms and praising of current managers managerial moves, I would be much obliged...I would very much like to linger there, given that they are the only ones who can engage in such discussions.

That's quite a straw man you've built.

edabbs44
08-13-2012, 10:48 PM
The Ondrusek citing was simply an example. If you want, I can go into full detail about all the things I disagree with Dusty on. I don't want to do that, and I doubt anyone truly cares to read that. And according to some, I shouldn't be allowed to criticize him because I'm not a major league manager.

At what point do the constant criticizers take a look and say "You know what, maybe I'm wrong? The guy wins." Dusty makes thousands of decisions per season. To obsess over decisions made here or there doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 10:50 PM
I'm just a little confused because there seems to be a contradiction.

In the same response where you agreed with me that there isn't a "right" or "wrong" decision in managing a baseball game, you said prior to that:



If there's not a right or wrong, then how can someone be blatantly wrong?

Arguing we shouldn't judge managers based on managerial record is like arguing we shouldn't judge defenders by any defensive metric. Both have major flaws, but in both cases, they're the best we've got.

I don't pretend managerial record is all or even mostly due to a manager. But for goodness sake's... baseball is a game where many games are decided by one or two runs. If the manager's decisions are as big as you're suggesting, then a bad manager would have a hard time consistently fielding a winning record even with a good team.

I don't think anyone is saying that because we're not big league managers, we can't criticize. But I do think that since none of us are big league managers, we should somewhat humble in criticizing as recognition that there a) isn't a right or wrong way, and b) we don't have the full perspective or knowledge to make decisions since we are not around the players every day and might not know every little thing that goes on.

I'll repeat this I guess, this time bolding the part I have a problem with. Your quote:


I think the problem here is that people actually have fooled themselves into believing there's a "right" or "wrong" decision with every possible scenario.

to which I said:


There isn't a "right or wrong" decision with every possible scenario.

I then used an example of one of these scenarios.


That does not mean that there aren't scenarios when he makes a blatantly poor decision. Me having never managed a game has literally nothing to do with the fact that Dusty keeps putting Ondrusek in positions that he shouldn't be in.

I honestly have no idea how you got to the mangerial/UZR analogy. They aren't even remotely in the same ballpark comparison wise. Managerial wins tell us next to nothing, in my opinion, about a manager's decision making, and a whole heck of a lot more about who is on the team. It's impossible to drill down to a number.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 10:56 PM
I honestly have no idea how you got to the mangerial/UZR analogy. They aren't even remotely in the same ballpark comparison wise. Managerial wins tell us next to nothing, in my opinion, about a manager's decision making, and a whole heck of a lot more about who is on the team. It's impossible to drill down to a number.


First, please show me evidence of any managerial decision that is "blatantly wrong" and support it with evidence that contradicts the decision by the order of a 80-90 percent probability. Unless you can do that on any of Dusty's decisions, they aren't "blatantly wrong." To be obviously wrong, there has to be something that makes it obvious, and one would think there would be statistical backing to make it such, not just a poster's whim or preference.

As far as managerial wins, games are a product of players making plays and managers making decisions to improve odds of them making such plays.

For you to argue Dusty often makes decisions you feel are "blatantly wrong," then turn around and say he should get no credit for winning percentage is completely contradictory. You're basically saying he's responsible for losing games but gets no credit for winning games. If managers don't have a huge impact on wins and losses, as you're now trying to suggest, then I guess you shouldn't fret so much over Dusty's managerial decisions.

The talent level is a huge factor in wins and losses. That's not being disputed. But managers also impact that as well. If they didn't, you wouldn't be so vocal against Dusty's decision-making. Because if you didn't think it mattered much, why get so upset over it?

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 11:15 PM
First, please show me evidence of any managerial decision that is "blatantly wrong" and support it with evidence that contradicts the decision by the order of a 80-90 percent probability. Unless you can do that on any of Dusty's decisions, they aren't "blatantly wrong." To be obviously wrong, there has to be something that makes it obvious, and one would think there would be statistical backing to make it such, not just a poster's whim or preference.

As far as managerial wins, games are a product of players making plays and managers making decisions to improve odds of them making such plays.

For you to argue Dusty often makes decisions you feel are "blatantly wrong," then turn around and say he should get no credit for winning percentage is completely contradictory. You're basically saying he's responsible for losing games but gets no credit for winning games. If managers don't have a huge impact on wins and losses, as you're now trying to suggest, then I guess you shouldn't fret so much over Dusty's managerial decisions.

The talent level is a huge factor in wins and losses. That's not being disputed. But managers also impact that as well. If they didn't, you wouldn't be so vocal against Dusty's decision-making. Because if you didn't think it mattered much, why get so upset over it?

My opinion of Dusty would be the same whether his career winning percentage was 47%, 52%, or 57%. He's a poor in game manager. That is my opinion of Dusty. I could name the reasons I believe that, but I don't think you're asking me to, and frankly I don't have the time tonight.

I'll again refer to something I already said:


Put the "best manager" in the game on the worst team, and it's still the worst team. Put the worst manager on the best team, and while it's probably still the best team, there is more a manager can do to bring down a team with his decision making than he can build up a team that is going to over achieve.

That's my opinion on the matter. Dusty's decision making does more bring down a team than it does to help it. I think, in the past few years, its been much less pervasive because he's been given a much better roster to deal with. However, Paul Janish, Wilson Valdez, Miguel Cairo, etc., have all managed to find a way to the top of the lineup card many times when that can't possibly be rationally justified.

And no, I absolutely did not say that he is responsible for losing games, yet gets no credit for winning games. Please do not put words in my mouth. Dusty does a lot of things in the game that drive me absolutely insane. The Reds are the only team I follow and watch on a nightly basis, so I'm not going to pretend that I "know for a fact" that he is the worst manager in the MLB. I just know that, very often, I strongly disagree with his decision making.

You are trying to quantify this by citing managerial records and such. I'm saying that it isn't quantifiable, and I'm telling you what my opinion is. I'm also giving you reasons for my opinions. I think that over the course of a season, Dusty's decision making absolutely does cost the Reds ball games. Does his positive influence in the locker room lead to more wins? Maybe. We truly have no way of knowing that. However, a reasonable person can conclude that he makes decisions that lower the Reds chances of winning, such as taking out your 2nd best reliever for your worst in a tie game in the 8th inning. Maybe that's the decision that every manager in baseball makes? I don't know. Like I said, I don't watch every other team. However, I can say that, regardless of the actual result of the at bat, that decision gave the Reds less of a chance of winning that game. I have no idea how to put that in the 80-90% probability number that you are demanding of me, but that is an example of what I believe to be a blatantly bad decision.

cincrazy
08-13-2012, 11:22 PM
Lol, I like how the intense Dusty argument is taking place in the Joey Votto thread. You guys are confusing the crap out of me. There are roughly one billion Dusty Baker threads currently. I have a lot of respect and enjoy reading both of you, but I'm not sure what place this argument has here... I think this is a pretty important thread at the moment, and think it's important it doesn't get derailed.

Homer Bailey
08-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Lol, I like how the intense Dusty argument is taking place in the Joey Votto thread. You guys are confusing the crap out of me. There are roughly one billion Dusty Baker threads currently. I have a lot of respect and enjoy reading both of you, but I'm not sure what place this argument has here... I think this is a pretty important thread at the moment, and think it's important it doesn't get derailed.

I agree. Although the child in me wants to point out that I did not start this.

Brutus
08-13-2012, 11:27 PM
My opinion of Dusty would be the same whether his career winning percentage was 47%, 52%, or 57%. He's a poor in game manager. That is my opinion of Dusty. I could name the reasons I believe that, but I don't think you're asking me to, and frankly I don't have the time tonight.

I'll again refer to something I already said:


That's my opinion on the matter. Dusty's decision making does more bring down a team than it does to help it. I think, in the past few years, its been much less pervasive because he's been given a much better roster to deal with. However, Paul Janish, Wilson Valdez, Miguel Cairo, etc., have all managed to find a way to the top of the lineup card many times when that can't possibly be rationally justified.

And no, I absolutely did not say that he is responsible for losing games, yet gets no credit for winning games. Please do not put words in my mouth. Dusty does a lot of things in the game that drive me absolutely insane. The Reds are the only team I follow and watch on a nightly basis, so I'm not going to pretend that I "know for a fact" that he is the worst manager in the MLB. I just know that, very often, I strongly disagree with his decision making.

You are trying to quantify this by citing managerial records and such. I'm saying that it isn't quantifiable, and I'm telling you what my opinion is. I'm also giving you reasons for my opinions. I think that over the course of a season, Dusty's decision making absolutely does cost the Reds ball games. Does his positive influence in the locker room lead to more wins? Maybe. We truly have no way of knowing that. However, a reasonable person can conclude that he makes decisions that lower the Reds chances of winning, such as taking out your 2nd best reliever for your worst in a tie game in the 8th inning. Maybe that's the decision that every manager in baseball makes? I don't know. Like I said, I don't watch every other team. However, I can say that, regardless of the actual result of the at bat, that decision gave the Reds less of a chance of winning that game. I have no idea how to put that in the 80-90% probability number that you are demanding of me, but that is an example of what I believe to be a blatantly bad decision.

I don't see how someone can have it both ways. If he costs games, then it's fair to point out his record. If a manager is responsible for some wins or losses, then he should get credit (or blame) for his managerial record to some extent.

It seems people want to criticize but don't want to have any accountability for exaggerations or perhaps that their conclusions were based on coin flips rather than something concrete.

You keep harping on the Ondrusek thing. But Ondrusek's career OPS against is over 30 points better than an average NL reliever. Whether you like it or not, he's gotten the job done more than not. To suggest using him is blatantly wrong doesn't align with what's actually happened over the course of his career thus far. Maybe at some point the regression fairy will adjust his overall numbers to fall in line with what people here seem to believe, but as long as he keeps getting the job done, I don't see how people can continue to say Dusty is "blatantly wrong" for using him in tight situations. Results do matter. Ondrusek's overall results, not his theoretical stats, continue to be better than an average pitcher.

Captain Hook
08-13-2012, 11:33 PM
Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.


I'm going to guess that I've played in over 500 baseball games in my life.I'm pretty sure that no less then 180 of those were for my schools team with another 200 having been for youth traveling teams.I'll guess that I've attended over 100 professional baseball games in my life.Mostly Reds and the local AAA team here in Columbus.I have no doubt that I've watched well over 1000(probably more like 2000)televised baseball games over the years.I've spent countless hours watching baseball specials and other baseball related TV show.My time in RZ and other site are also worth mentioning.All of these numbers are rough guesses but I promise that I'm being very conservative.

I have been to the doctor a few times for all the common reasons people go to the doctor.I sprained my knee once and had to go to the emergency room.I've attempted to pay attention to some of my older relatives as they catch me up on all of their ailments and trips to the doctor(is it just me or do old people really like to talk about this stuff).

My point is that I feel pretty confident giving my opinion about something baseball related and not so confident giving my opinion about something health related.While you don't need to be qualified to give an opinion it's a good idea to know a little something about what you're talking about and if your're really spouting off about something it might be a good idea to be an expert.I'm pretty sure there's a good number of baseball experts here and not too many medical experts.

forfreelin04
08-13-2012, 11:51 PM
Some people just choose to argue for the sake of winning anything. Dale Carnegie would tell you that everyone is right in their own mind. I'm a financial advisor and I'll tell you the people that argue the most are the ones with the least amount of control over their money.

In regards to this spat, Ill say: Brutus you love being the antagonist, but know that your act gets old no matter how credible your argument may be.

Brutus
08-14-2012, 12:11 AM
Some people just choose to argue for the sake of winning anything. Dale Carnegie would tell you that everyone is right in their own mind. I'm a financial advisor and I'll tell you the people that argue the most are the ones with the least amount of control over their money.

In regards to this spat, Ill say: Brutus you love being the antagonist, but know that your act gets old no matter how credible your argument may be.

If you have a problem with me, I suggest you put me on ignore or take it private. Not sure where you think it's your place to call me out for no apparent reason whatsoever. Dale Carnegie would also tell you that someone shouldn't engage someone in a conflict, especially one they weren't involved in.

reds44
08-14-2012, 12:13 AM
Except all of us have quite a bit of experience in baseball. I played baseball for many, many years. I've been watching professional baseball for many, many, many years. I have read so much about the game, discussed it extensively with people on here on almost a daily basis, am able to form my own opinions, and analyze the game at a pretty high level. The same can be said for most people on this board.

Aside from actual doctors, no one on this board has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to Kremchek performing a knee surgery. Absolutely no idea. Can anyone tell me what Kremchek should have done differently? Should he have been more cautious when scoping his knee? I can't even come up with a hypothetical question to ask here because I know next to nothing about what it takes to perform a knee surgery. What I can tell you is that Logan Ondrusek is not an 8th inning pitcher, that bunts are extremely unproductive, that Corey Patterson should not be a leadoff hitter, etc. A manager's decision making is very public, and fair game to be criticized. Kremchek's decision making/performance is not. I don't have to have major league baseball experience to have an opinion on Dusty's decision making. Sometimes I'm right and Dusty is wrong. Sometimes I'm wrong, and Dusty is right. In no way is that comparable to Kremchek's "performance." Those throwing the stones at Kremchek have literally no idea what they are talking about. Unless they can specifically tell me how he should have performed the surgery differently (which would mean they would have to have been there to watch him perform the first surgery), the situation is 100% not comparable.
THIS. All of THIS.

Patrick Bateman
08-14-2012, 12:14 AM
Only to a small degree. Lineup construction is theoretical. Truth is, we can't know ever how a lineup would work. It's based on false assumptions that players aren't pitched differently or react differently with different spots in the order.

It's a manager's job to not only construct a lineup based on skill, but based on how players are able to handle a role psychologically as well as physically. Some players aren't as comfortable in different spots in the order as they are others. That's an emotional part of the game we as fans do not have access to, whereas the manager would be more privy to it.

Do you really believe that the potential for 'emotions' and slight differences that players have in relation to their line-up position makes us essentially equal to able to construct a line-up as we do to perform a significant medical procedure? I'm never going to buy that one.

Honestly, I think the stats would show that there might be slight differences in the stuff you are talking about, but at least 90% of line-up construction is based on being able to understand very easy mathematics. You just can't say anything close to that about doctors no matter how you spin it.

We as posters wont be able to fairly criticize doctors here unless Reds players consistently begin getting recurring injuries or their DL trips are consistently longer than expected.

If I recall, most of Krem's complaints were surrounding Griffey's constant surgeries and issues, and general unpredictability. I think time showed that Griffey was simply broken from his high gear level of play from his early years and demanding position. Considering that players from multiple different sports, and even other baseball teams have significant surgeries performed by Krem, I think its fair to say the guy is earning his paycheque despite Votto's relapse. Not to mention the health of the Reds starting pitching, the argument just can't be made.

Brutus
08-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Do you really believe that the potential for 'emotions' and slight differences that players have in relation to their line-up position makes us essentially equal to able to construct a line-up as we do to perform a significant medical procedure? I'm never going to buy that one.

Honestly, I think the stats would show that there might be slight differences in the stuff you are talking about, but at least 90% of line-up construction is based on being able to understand very easy mathematics. You just can't say anything close to that about doctors no matter how you spin it.

We as posters wont be able to fairly criticize doctors here unless Reds players consistently begin getting recurring injuries or their DL trips are consistently longer than expected.

If I recall, most of Krem's complaints were surrounding Griffey's constant surgeries and issues, and general unpredictability. I think time showed that Griffey was simply broken from his high gear level of play from his early years and demanding position. Considering that players from multiple different sports, and even other baseball teams have significant surgeries performed by Krem, I think its fair to say the guy is earning his paycheque despite Votto's relapse. Not to mention the health of the Reds starting pitching, the argument just can't be made.

Let me ask you this...

Do you have a job? Do you work more effectively at your job if you're feeling well, feeling happy and enjoy where you work and who you work for? If you like the role you play at your employment?

Well, why wouldn't those things apply to baseball? Many baseball players have said they're not comfortable at certain spots in the order. Are you saying you don't believe them? Why wouldn't human psychology apply to them too?

Roy Tucker
08-14-2012, 12:23 AM
For what its worth..

This is an internet bulletin board, not a formal debate or a court of law or a medical board. If people want to throw out their opinions about Kremchek whether they are half-, fully-, or not-at-all- baked, seems that this is the place. I mean, what the hell? Just because you don't know what you're talking about has nothing to do with it. It's the internet. Blather away.

powersackers
08-14-2012, 12:41 AM
Ugh admins close this mess of a thread. So far off topic...

Patrick Bateman
08-14-2012, 12:50 AM
Let me ask you this...

Do you have a job? Do you work more effectively at your job if you're feeling well, feeling happy and enjoy where you work and who you work for? If you like the role you play at your employment?

Well, why wouldn't those things apply to baseball? Many baseball players have said they're not comfortable at certain spots in the order. Are you saying you don't believe them? Why wouldn't human psychology apply to them too?

If they throw me in a dark room and make me use an abacus, yes, I wont be as happy as productive.

But it's also possible that Zack Cozart does not care if he's batting 1st or 7th... he certainly has not had an approach that would suggest he is comfortable at the top of the order, nor have the other guys who have been continuously misplaced. Statistical analysis over large samples can be used to mostly prove whether this stuff exists within a material amount.

Anyways, I think other are right. This isn't going anywhere. Of course everyone can believe what they want, but as for all, this is a discussion board, there wouldn't be much discussion if there wasn't disagreement....

PuffyPig
08-14-2012, 09:26 AM
.

You keep harping on the Ondrusek thing. But Ondrusek's career OPS against is over 30 points better than an average NL reliever. Whether you like it or not, he's gotten the job done more than not. To suggest using him is blatantly wrong doesn't align with what's actually happened over the course of his career thus far. Maybe at some point the regression fairy will adjust his overall numbers to fall in line with what people here seem to believe, but as long as he keeps getting the job done, I don't see how people can continue to say Dusty is "blatantly wrong" for using him in tight situations. Results do matter. Ondrusek's overall results, not his theoretical stats, continue to be better than an average pitcher.

I don't think a relief pitcher who "gets the job done more often than not" should be praised simply because he's beter than 50/50. I think a higher standard needs to be reached.

A division contender with an elite relief core should not be using a "slightly above average" reliever in high leverage situations. Ondrusek deserves a spot in a major league bullpen. He does not deserve a spot at the back end of a winning ballclub's bullpen.

Plus Plus
08-14-2012, 09:43 AM
Can we get this thread back on track? This is for discussion of Votto's injury and recovery, not Baker's managerial style or the analysis of multiple truths.

If you want to discuss Baker, there are a number of threads to do that in. Please take that discussion elsewhere.

nate
08-14-2012, 10:59 AM
If Votto is out longer with leg problems and they have to amputate, what should his prosthesis be?

I say, an alligator. Think of how many bases he could steal because the 1st baseman would be afraid to hold him on!

:cool:

Chip R
08-14-2012, 11:12 AM
If Votto is out longer with leg problems and they have to amputate, what should his prosthesis be?

I say, an alligator. Think of how many bases he could steal because the 1st baseman would be afraid to hold him on!

:cool:

I say Patrick Duffy.

Boss-Hog
08-14-2012, 01:19 PM
I'm really disappointed to see that such a lengthy debate went on in this thread on a completely unrelated topic when there are numerous other threads (or even a new one) that could have been used for that discussion.

I am also disappointed the discussion continued even after a poster or two pointed this out. At some point, you need to be able to self police yourself. It should have never required a moderator telling the discussion to cease in this thread to realize a thread on Joey Votto's injury is not the place to have a lengthy discussion on Dusty's managerial ability.

RedsMan3203
08-19-2012, 12:56 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/08/19/votto-taking-grounders-again/


Votto out taking grounders today... But, won't be making the trip to Philly with the team. So, maybe a return of Aug 24th.

cincrazy
08-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Jim Day said on the air that he doesn't think we should expect to see Votto until at least September 1st.

OldXOhio
08-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Jim Day said on the air that he doesn't think we should expect to see Votto until at least September 1st.

As long as it takes to get him 100%, but damn this is taking a lot of time. Can't wait (hopefully) to see Phillips, Votto, the hot Ludwick, Bruce in the 2-5 spots.

757690
08-19-2012, 03:10 PM
Jim Day said on the air that he doesn't think we should expect to see Votto until at least September 1st.

I have a feeling that his insider for this information was Miguel Cairo ;)

Tony Cloninger
08-19-2012, 03:13 PM
I have a feeling that his insider for this information was Miguel Cairo ;)

You can laugh....I am not. But not mad at you.....They are that afraid of releasing Cairo? How pathetic is that?

I mean......what is he supposed to do? Never slide again? How can it be this bad?

KYRedsFan
08-19-2012, 03:20 PM
Never made sense of the team to predict only an added week when most scopes typically take 3 weeks or so to get back from

VR
08-19-2012, 03:23 PM
Ticket sales :)

kaldaniels
08-19-2012, 10:41 PM
I'm just thinking out loud here and I'm not blaming any of the medical staff etc...but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about Votto making it back to 100 percent (for lack of a better term) this year.

Brutus
08-19-2012, 10:44 PM
I'm just thinking out loud here and I'm not blaming any of the medical staff etc...but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about Votto making it back to 100 percent (for lack of a better term) this year.

I honestly don't think there's a question of his returning at 100 percent, I just think it's a matter of when.

Honestly, I wonder if the Reds aren't playing it extra conservative now that they continue to increase their lead. As long as the Reds keep putting distance between they and the Pirates/Cardinals, they can play it slow in getting him back.

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2012, 10:46 PM
I'm still chucking at the people who swore that the original surgery was a minor procedure and insisted that Votto would be back in 3 weeks.

Any time a timetable is given for an injury return mid-season, double it to get an idea of the earliest possible date of return.

kaldaniels
08-19-2012, 10:48 PM
I honestly don't think there's a question of his returning at 100 percent, I just think it's a matter of when.

Honestly, I wonder if the Reds aren't playing it extra conservative now that they continue to increase their lead. As long as the Reds keep putting distance between they and the Pirates/Cardinals, they can play it slow in getting him back.

I agree they have no reason not to be conservative. But today for some reason I just pictured after a quick playoff exit Votto saying something like "yeah my knee just never got back up to speed this year etc...". Again, just thinking aloud. I think we are around Day 50 post-injury now...I think it is wearing on my brain a bit.

Tadasimha
08-19-2012, 10:54 PM
I'm just thinking out loud here and I'm not blaming any of the medical staff etc...but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about Votto making it back to 100 percent (for lack of a better term) this year.

I agree with Brutus that the Reds are taking it very cautiously at this point to try and get Votto back to that 100% (or as close as possible) so he can be a part of the final post-season push and be ready to go in the playoffs.

If he can't make it back to 100%, the question is how close to 100% he is and if he's only at 80%, is that enough?

BTW - 1st ORG post! :thumbup:

kaldaniels
08-19-2012, 10:55 PM
I agree with Brutus that the Reds are taking it very cautiously at this point to try and get Votto back to that 100% (or as close as possible) so he can be a part of the final post-season push and be ready to go in the playoffs.

If he can't make it back to 100%, the question is how close to 100% he is and if he's only at 80%, is that enough?

BTW - 1st ORG post! :thumbup:

My first thought was, who is this guy that replied. :laugh:

Glad to be a part of history, welcome aboard. :beerme:

Tadasimha
08-19-2012, 10:57 PM
My first thought was, who is this guy that replied. :laugh:

Glad to be a part of history, welcome aboard. :beerme:

Thanks!

cincrazy
08-19-2012, 11:14 PM
I'm still chucking at the people who swore that the original surgery was a minor procedure and insisted that Votto would be back in 3 weeks.

Any time a timetable is given for an injury return mid-season, double it to get an idea of the earliest possible date of return.

Well, it was a minor procedure. My brother had a meniscus torn, surgery to fix it, and everything is fine for him today. However, I agree with you on the recovery time. Just because the procedure is minor doesn't mean he's going to heal that quickly. I originally thought around 5 weeks for his recovery.

Brutus
08-19-2012, 11:19 PM
I'm still chucking at the people who swore that the original surgery was a minor procedure and insisted that Votto would be back in 3 weeks.

Any time a timetable is given for an injury return mid-season, double it to get an idea of the earliest possible date of return.

The original surgery had him being within a couple of days of being activated around the 3-week mark. It wasn't until they found loose cartilage that Votto's timetable got pushed back.

If he didn't have to wind up going back for a second procedure, he'd already have been back by now.

traderumor
08-19-2012, 11:20 PM
I'm still chucking at the people who swore that the original surgery was a minor procedure and insisted that Votto would be back in 3 weeks.

Any time a timetable is given for an injury return mid-season, double it to get an idea of the earliest possible date of return.He was basically back in 4 weeks, then hurt in sliding practice, so I'm not sure why you are being so condescending as if people were idiots when the timetable was pretty much on track to the original 3-4 weeks except for the second injury.

Spitball
08-19-2012, 11:20 PM
I am sure a six game lead and the current success tells the team officials to be conservative with their best player.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-19-2012, 11:23 PM
It's not just Votto coming back, which I'm sure he will within the next couple of weeks. I'm worried about him having enough time to get back into a groove. Missing a month and a half in the middle of the season is going to mean Joey will have at least some adjustment to get his swing back to where it was pre-ASB.

nate
08-19-2012, 11:24 PM
He was basically back in 4 weeks, then hurt in sliding practice, so I'm not sure why you are being so condescending as if people were idiots when the timetable was pretty much on track to the original 3-4 weeks except for the second injury.

Word.

It's not like he re-injured himself putting on his cowboy boots.

George Foster
08-19-2012, 11:49 PM
The second surgery was 8 days ago, a 10 minute procedure. There is no time table for his return. According to him he still has pain. When should we be concerned? I'm not trying to start anything on the board, but this thing has not gone well or at the very least, not according to plan.

Scrap Irony
08-20-2012, 12:58 AM
It's not just Votto coming back, which I'm sure he will within the next couple of weeks. I'm worried about him having enough time to get back into a groove. Missing a month and a half in the middle of the season is going to mean Joey will have at least some adjustment to get his swing back to where it was pre-ASB.

Votto will hit. In fact, I'd argue that he'll be fresh and hitting against pitchers who're almost worn out. With the ball carrying in the late summer air. The late season additions of Votto and Massett should are huge, IMO, especially if things tighten up in the pennant race.

Caveat Emperor
08-20-2012, 03:34 AM
He was basically back in 4 weeks, then hurt in sliding practice, so I'm not sure why you are being so condescending as if people were idiots when the timetable was pretty much on track to the original 3-4 weeks except for the second injury.

Second injuries, tweaks, tightness, etc. -- they happen constantly when attempting to rehab injuries or recover from surgery, no matter how minor. Everyone is "on track" to come back on schedule until they hit one of these snags and then they suddenly aren't.

The point is this: never EVER believe or count on the best-case timetable with an injury.

redsfandan
08-20-2012, 06:23 AM
He needs to be back before Sept 1 (to be eligible for the playoffs) right?

membengal
08-20-2012, 07:13 AM
He needs to be back before Sept 1 (to be eligible for the playoffs) right?

No.

PuffyPig
08-20-2012, 08:22 AM
He needs to be back before Sept 1 (to be eligible for the playoffs) right?

He's on the DL, that's the same as being on the active roster.

I(heart)Freel
08-20-2012, 08:48 AM
Think about a rested, hungry Votto in Sept and Oct.

Yes, there will be a period of adjustment. But Joey, of all players, is probably the least to worry about. He falls out of bed hitting doubles.

Caveman Techie
08-20-2012, 10:01 AM
. He falls out of bed hitting doubles.

False.

He is still asleep when he hits doubles. He hits homeruns when he actually falls out of bed.

:)

Sea Ray
08-20-2012, 10:17 AM
The second surgery was 8 days ago, a 10 minute procedure. There is no time table for his return. According to him he still has pain. When should we be concerned? I'm not trying to start anything on the board, but this thing has not gone well or at the very least, not according to plan.

I hadn't heard that. How long ago did he say that he still has pain?

kaldaniels
08-20-2012, 10:23 AM
I hadn't heard that. How long ago did he say that he still has pain?

I'm on my phone so I can't really go get it but I think it was on Reds.com. Thats what started my concern yesterday.

Sea Ray
08-20-2012, 10:49 AM
I'm on my phone so I can't really go get it but I think it was on Reds.com. Thats what started my concern yesterday.

Thanks.

Here it is:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120819&content_id=36967686&notebook_id=36969406&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

This isn't what I wanted to hear. We're looking at Sept 1 at the earliest and if he isn't activated then, we've got some real questions to ask

traderumor
08-20-2012, 10:50 AM
Second injuries, tweaks, tightness, etc. -- they happen constantly when attempting to rehab injuries or recover from surgery, no matter how minor. Everyone is "on track" to come back on schedule until they hit one of these snags and then they suddenly aren't.

The point is this: never EVER believe or count on the best-case timetable with an injury.
So you're laughing insultingly at people based on your own anecdotal evidence that leads to an absolute statement? OK, that tells me how seriously to take the jab.

Plus, you are doing some rationalizing here. The facts of this case was that he was injured in pregame workouts that had him on schedule to return in 4 weeks, which was right on target with the original estimate. It wasn't a snag, it was an injury of the same body part.

BTW, I'll be glad to take a peak at the evidence for your position.

Caveat Emperor
08-20-2012, 12:26 PM
So you're laughing insultingly at people based on your own anecdotal evidence that leads to an absolute statement? OK, that tells me how seriously to take the jab.

Plus, you are doing some rationalizing here. The facts of this case was that he was injured in pregame workouts that had him on schedule to return in 4 weeks, which was right on target with the original estimate. It wasn't a snag, it was an injury of the same body part.

BTW, I'll be glad to take a peak at the evidence for your position.

I'm sure it's roughly the same amount of evidence that you'll be presenting to the contrary.

Snags include re-injury -- a pitcher who starts throwing and re-injures his shoulder, or feels soreness and has to "shut it down" for a little while. It's the risk you run when you're attempting to recover and regain strength at the same time. It isn't rationalization -- it's an understanding of how to treat estimates being given out by team medical staffs and beat writers.

RedsMan3203
08-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Just because he has snoreness 2 days ago doesn't mean it won't be gone 3 days from now... I've been there done that before... Wake up one day and can't move the knee and 3 days later it feels like its brand new....

Give it some time... He'll be back... :)

cincrazy
08-20-2012, 03:03 PM
I don't think anyone should be concerned that he still feels pain. That's likely to be the case the rest of this season. As long as the pain isn't severe and is just soreness, he's fine.

traderumor
08-20-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm sure it's roughly the same amount of evidence that you'll be presenting to the contrary.

Snags include re-injury -- a pitcher who starts throwing and re-injures his shoulder, or feels soreness and has to "shut it down" for a little while. It's the risk you run when you're attempting to recover and regain strength at the same time. It isn't rationalization -- it's an understanding of how to treat estimates being given out by team medical staffs and beat writers.I provided evidence for my position, which is that this return from injury was within the stated estimates until a reinjury occurred. I can see, though, that you are going to define things in a way that it attempts to keep your point in tact, so this is my last response.

traderumor
08-20-2012, 03:12 PM
Thanks.

Here it is:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120819&content_id=36967686&notebook_id=36969406&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

This isn't what I wanted to hear. We're looking at Sept 1 at the earliest and if he isn't activated then, we've got some real questions to askNot sure what alarms you in that account. As he said, go figure that he has pain after surgery two weeks ago.

Caveat Emperor
08-20-2012, 03:14 PM
I provided evidence for my position, which is that this return from injury was within the stated estimates until a reinjury occurred. I can see, though, that you are going to define things in a way that it keeps your point in tact, so this is my last response.

He hadn't returned from injury. Until he returns from injury, he's merely "on schedule" to return when he was projected to and anything that prevents that return (re injury, aggravation, setbacks, etc.) extends the time table.

I don't know how you can define things any other way. Just because you get "A's" on the midterm and all the quizzes doesn't mean you're going to end up with an "A" in the class -- you might be on schedule to get an "A," but there's still a final exam to worry about before you can write the grade down on your transcripts.

Blimpie
08-20-2012, 11:15 PM
I don't think anyone should be concerned that he still feels pain. That's likely to be the case the rest of this season. As long as the pain isn't severe and is just soreness, he's fine.Agreed. I heard Votto remark a few days ago that this was the first time he has ever suffered ANY type of injury playing baseball before.

That means he is still working to define--within his own mind--the differences between general post-op soreness and pain that should be brought to someone else's attention.

redsfandan
08-21-2012, 06:21 AM
He's on the DL, that's the same as being on the active roster.

Thanks for the clarification.

thatcoolguy_22
08-22-2012, 08:14 AM
Any news on Votto's return?

LoganBuck
08-22-2012, 08:45 AM
Any news on Votto's return?

He took some ground balls over the weekend at GABP

He got a haircut

He didn't go on the trip.

You now know everything.

Dan
08-22-2012, 09:04 AM
You know, if anything, this stretch has shown this team that it can win without Votto. These guys have to have sky-high confidence right now.

Tom Servo
08-22-2012, 02:42 PM
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+San+Diego+Padres+v+Cincinnati+Reds+d6Lm QB87Occl.jpg
Votto 2 weeks into his DL stint

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+New+York+Mets+v+Cincinnati+Reds+G6fEYpz vRmgl.jpg
Votto 4 weeks into his DL stint

http://i.imgur.com/eBcKt.jpg
Votto today

Blimpie
08-22-2012, 03:46 PM
Outstanding.

Degenerate39
08-22-2012, 05:32 PM
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+San+Diego+Padres+v+Cincinnati+Reds+d6Lm QB87Occl.jpg
Votto 2 weeks into his DL stint

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+New+York+Mets+v+Cincinnati+Reds+G6fEYpz vRmgl.jpg
Votto 4 weeks into his DL stint

http://i.imgur.com/eBcKt.jpg
Votto today

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Raisor
08-22-2012, 07:32 PM
The dude IS Canadian. I'm sure his beard is very manly.

_Sir_Charles_
08-22-2012, 07:34 PM
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+San+Diego+Padres+v+Cincinnati+Reds+d6Lm QB87Occl.jpg
Votto 2 weeks into his DL stint

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Joey+Votto+New+York+Mets+v+Cincinnati+Reds+G6fEYpz vRmgl.jpg
Votto 4 weeks into his DL stint

http://i.imgur.com/eBcKt.jpg
Votto today

STILL laughing! :O) Totally caught me off guard. :lol:

redsfaninbsg
08-22-2012, 08:41 PM
All jokes aside, the Reds need to get Votto back for no other reason than to get him back in the groove while giving Dusty time to figure out how he wants to play Ludwick/Rolen/Frazier in only two spots on a day to day basis.

Redsfan320
08-22-2012, 09:16 PM
All jokes aside, the Reds need to get Votto back for no other reason than to get him back in the groove while giving Dusty time to figure out how he wants to play Ludwick/Rolen/Frazier in only two spots on a day to day basis.

Looks like the decision's been made. :(
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120822&content_id=37159510&notebook_id=37160808&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

320

CySeymour
08-22-2012, 09:48 PM
It's almost 6 weeks until the playoffs start. Anything can happen between now and then. But no matter what, just knowing the team is in first and an MVP caliber player is going to be joining the team soon is never a bad thing.

OldXOhio
08-23-2012, 02:05 PM
All jokes aside, the Reds need to get Votto back for no other reason than to get him back in the groove while giving Dusty time to figure out how he wants to play Ludwick/Rolen/Frazier in only two spots on a day to day basis.

Between the days off Dusty has consistently given Rolen and Ludwick, I'm not worried about Frazier getting time at 3B and LF. Heisey's the one who may not see the field much beyond a PH role and occasional start in CF.

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 04:05 PM
All has been incredibly quiet on the Votto front. I haven't seen any updates since he first resumed baseball activities. I find it so wonderful that he can just take his time in getting back because this team has been playing so well.

Sea Ray
08-23-2012, 04:08 PM
All has been incredibly quiet on the Votto front. I haven't seen any updates since he first resumed baseball activities. I find it so wonderful that he can just take his time in getting back because this team has been playing so well.

Since he didn't make the trip to Philadelphia with the team, there won't be any updates until they get back home. My guess is we're looking at Sept 1

RedEye
08-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Since he didn't make the trip to Philadelphia with the team, there won't be any updates until they get back home. My guess is we're looking at Sept 1

It would be awesome if Votto and Hamilton both get a "call up" on the same day, eh? How many teams get to add baseball's best hitter and its fastest man on the same day? :beerme:

RedsMan3203
08-26-2012, 12:03 PM
Update: Sun 8/26/2012

Jim Day ‏@JimDayTV
Dusty says the plan is to have Votto go to Dayton sometime this week to rehab in hopes that he can join #Reds next weekend in Houston.

Reds Fanatic
08-26-2012, 12:17 PM
Update: Sun 8/26/2012

Jim Day ‏@JimDayTV
Dusty says the plan is to have Votto go to Dayton sometime this week to rehab in hopes that he can join #Reds next weekend in Houston.

This is the last week of the regular season in the minor leagues so I expected they would try to get Votto a rehab appearance. Dayton is home through Friday so the timing works out well.

Kc61
08-26-2012, 12:20 PM
This is the last week of the regular season in the minor leagues so I expected they would try to get Votto a rehab appearance. Dayton is home through Friday so the timing works out well.

As I understand things, if Votto rejoins the team on September 1 Reds don't have to drop a player. That's next Saturday. So hopefully Joey will be on the active roster next Saturday.

RedsMan3203
08-26-2012, 12:20 PM
Jim Day ‏@JimDayTV
Votto just said he’s going to Dayton Tuesday to rehab #reds

Reds Fanatic
08-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Jim Day ‏@JimDayTV
Votto just said he’s going to Dayton Tuesday to rehab #reds

That is great news. I will be at the Dragons game on Wednesday. I would expect they will probably give Votto maybe 3 games rehab (Tues-Thurs) and then fly him to Houston. As KC said if they just hold him out Friday they won't have to make a roster move and then they could activate him Saturday.

Reds Fanatic
08-26-2012, 12:44 PM
It looks like it will be two games in Dayton (Tuesday and Wednesday) depending on how Votto is feeling

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/26/votto-to-play-rehab-games-in-dayton/


“Hopefully two (games), depending on how I’m feeling,” Votto said. “I’m a little apprehensive because I haven’t played in such a long time, but once I get going I’ll feel fine.”

Votto still won’t forecast which day he might rejoin the Reds:

“That’s too far off. … I’ve got a long way to go with my swing.”

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-26-2012, 12:48 PM
Update: Sun 8/26/2012

Jim Day ‏@JimDayTV
Dusty says the plan is to have Votto go to Dayton sometime this week to rehab in hopes that he can join #Reds next weekend in Houston.

He might face tougher pitching in Dayton.

westofyou
09-25-2012, 12:52 PM
I don't think anyone should be concerned that he still feels pain. That's likely to be the case the rest of this season. As long as the pain isn't severe and is just soreness, he's fine.

I found this image today at work, it's essentially what a tear is, and you're right pain will be felt and it could be a while based on the original tear or the reinjury

Dan
09-25-2012, 07:32 PM
I found this image today at work, it's essentially what a tear is, and you're right pain will be felt and it could be a while based on the original tear or the reinjury

I tore my meniscus in December. Didn't have surgery, but did go through physical therapy. It worked, and I don't have any of the sort of pain I used to have. However, if I turn the wrong way or move the wrong way when I'm on my hands and knees, I definitely feel what I would call a twinge. It goes away quickly, though, and there are no lingering effects. I'd be surprised if this isn't what Votto is feeling at this point.

RANDY IN INDY
09-25-2012, 07:46 PM
I had the same surgery Votto had. The knee didn't feel really stable for a few months. There were twinges for about that long, as well, when I moved quickly laterally. Takes a while to "trust" it.

oneupper
09-25-2012, 07:46 PM
I was scoped back in the 90's. For a couple of years I thought it hadn't been effective since I still felt those twinges. And then they stopped and none since.
It takes a while I guess.

westofyou
10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
I thought all the doctors on Redszone would have something to say bout this:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/10/26/reds-medical-staff-named-best/



otowire has named the Reds medical staff best in the major leagues for 2012. The award recognizes physicians, athletic trainers, physical therapists, and other associated health professionals that contributed most to their team.

The Reds medical staff is led by head athletic trainer Paul Lessard and Dr. Tim Kremchek.

oneupper
10-30-2012, 06:04 PM
I thought all the doctors on Redszone would have something to say bout this:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/10/26/reds-medical-staff-named-best/

The health of the starting staff during the season was quite an accomplishment in itself. Kudos to whoever was in charge of their conditioning also.

kaldaniels
10-30-2012, 11:33 PM
I thought all the doctors on Redszone would have something to say bout this:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/10/26/reds-medical-staff-named-best/

Best in Class vs. Fire Kremchek.

Who am I to believe?

Blitz Dorsey
10-31-2012, 01:26 AM
I thought all the doctors on Redszone would have something to say bout this:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/10/26/reds-medical-staff-named-best/

Since you took time out of your busy schedule to update us on this, please let us know the credentials of "otowire" and why you believe they are the foremost authority on medical analysis.

I think the Reds should shop themselves around and find someone better than "Doc Hollywood."

Blitz Dorsey
10-31-2012, 01:33 AM
Also, this story appears to be more about the trainers (day-to-day staff) than the resident surgeon (Kremhack). Both are mentioned, but this comes across as a "filler" story from Rotowire. Or maybe the writers at Rotowire are all med school grads who decided to go into sports journalism instead.

cumberlandreds
10-31-2012, 08:52 AM
The health of the starting staff during the season was quite an accomplishment in itself. Kudos to whoever was in charge of their conditioning also.

I think Price has a lot to do with their conditioning. I read earlier in the season they do team running during the season. That was said to help a lot with Simon and his effectiveness this season. He was finally in shape for one of the first times in his career. If you are in good condition that cuts down on the injuries and a big reason this staff had few this past season.

westofyou
10-31-2012, 10:31 AM
Since you took time out of your busy schedule to update us on this, please let us know the credentials of "otowire" and why you believe they are the foremost authority on medical analysis.

I think the Reds should shop themselves around and find someone better than "Doc Hollywood."
Why so snarky... Doctor Blitz? You gots the google do the digging yourself son.

cincrazy
10-31-2012, 06:50 PM
Since you took time out of your busy schedule to update us on this, please let us know the credentials of "otowire" and why you believe they are the foremost authority on medical analysis.

I think the Reds should shop themselves around and find someone better than "Doc Hollywood."

And what are your credentials to know what makes a good doctor and what doesn't?

Blitz Dorsey
10-31-2012, 08:08 PM
And what are your credentials to know what makes a good doctor and what doesn't?

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.