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malcontent
08-12-2012, 11:41 PM
Just noticed something again that I first noticed ages ago, though I'm sure it won't come as a surprise to many here.

Of the top 28 qualifying MLB starters in ERA, 14 are lefties. Of course, outside of Cueto, our all-RHP rotation is nowhere to be found.

Too bad the Reds didn't reach on Chris Sale (#7) a couple years ago. At least they kept Cingrani for now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#statType=pitching&elem=[object+Object]&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching&sectionType=sp&page=1&ts=1344828875290&sortColumn=era&sortOrder=%27asc%27&extended=0

'69 & Vine
08-13-2012, 07:40 AM
Up until his release, Jeff Francis would have been the SP to insert into the rotation.

I got mocked for suggesting we go after Jon Lester when he was about to get run out of Boston. Lester struck out 12 yesterday.

It is a valid criticism of Jocketty that we have no LH SP and only two LH in the line-up, and no switch hitters.

As much as I like Mike Leake (really do), I would have rather dealt him than Travis Wood.

malcontent
08-13-2012, 02:35 PM
Up until his release, Jeff Francis would have been the SP to insert into the rotation.

I got mocked for suggesting we go after Jon Lester when he was about to get run out of Boston. Lester struck out 12 yesterday.

It is a valid criticism of Jocketty that we have no LH SP and only two LH in the line-up, and no switch hitters.

As much as I like Mike Leake (really do), I would have rather dealt him than Travis Wood.
Lester would be really nice to have about now.

I just don't understand what Jocketty has been thinking.

Captain13
08-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Lester would be really nice to have about now.

I just don't understand what Jocketty has been thinking.

Walt is probably thinking he has taken the The Cincinnati Reds, who have been barely 1 step better than the Pirates and Royals for the last 20 years, to division leaders and WS contenders. At least, that's what I'd be thinking if I was Walt.

jback76
08-13-2012, 04:45 PM
Walt is probably thinking he has taken the The Cincinnati Reds, who have been barely 1 step better than the Pirates and Royals for the last 20 years, to division leaders and WS contenders. At least, that's what I'd be thinking if I was Walt.

I agree with this, the Reds aren't perfect but no team is. I'll take what the Reds are doing now over 1991-2009.

'69 & Vine
08-13-2012, 07:06 PM
Walt is probably thinking he has taken the The Cincinnati Reds, who have been barely 1 step better than the Pirates and Royals for the last 20 years, to division leaders and WS contenders. At least, that's what I'd be thinking if I was Walt.

WS Contenders? :confused:

Obviously this is a much better club than the 2000-2009 versions but is very flawed when it comes to roster construction and balance.

Walt deserves credit for the team's success and criticism for it's flaws.

The topic was that LH starters are disproportionately dominating, yet we don't have one.

Larkin88
08-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Just noticed something again that I first noticed ages ago, though I'm sure it won't come as a surprise to many here.

Of the top 28 qualifying MLB starters in ERA, 14 are lefties. Of course, outside of Cueto, our all-RHP rotation is nowhere to be found.

Too bad the Reds didn't reach on Chris Sale (#7) a couple years ago. At least they kept Cingrani for now.

Well while that might be true, it's also worth noting that since the All-Star break, Latos' 2.60 ERA (if you want to use ERA) would also put him in that conversation during that split... but I know you don't like Latos.

If you're implying that we should "of course" expect something like 3 or 4 of our rotation members to be in the top 25 or so of starters' ERA in all of baseball, where they play half the season in Great American... well you're going to be waiting a while to see those expectations met.

As for the construction of the rotation, while it would be ideal to have more lefties, I'm not going to split hairs about a team that has the fourth best ERA in all of baseball as a unit. (sixth if you want to limit it to starters (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=14,a))

We learned with Willie Harris that just because someone has a lefty-righty split, it doesn't mean they'd be better than the incumbent. All of our pitchers are cost controlled and young with the obvious exception of Arroyo, who will be off the books in due course. Elite left-handed talent is extremely difficult and expensive to obtain, which should be obvious from the premium by which it is held. For the time being, if the alternative is a team that by all measures is in the top five in most key pitching categories... well I guess I'm okay settling.

Larkin88
08-13-2012, 07:47 PM
Up until his release, Jeff Francis would have been the SP to insert into the rotation.

I got mocked for suggesting we go after Jon Lester when he was about to get run out of Boston. Lester struck out 12 yesterday.

Other than this one and only opportunity in the entire season to date that the Reds are probably inserting another arm to start... are you really implying that adding Jeff Francis into the rotation at the expense of a current staff member would improve the team?

This is where infatuation with leftyism for the sake of it turns into reductio ad absurdum. And yes, I acknowledge the platoon advantages it can get you in baseball.

Jon Lester? Did I miss him switching teams to someone to indicate that Boston even intended to "run him out of town" at a reasonable price? Several teams (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/braves-inquired-about-jon-lester.html) in much greater need of pitching (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/cafardo-on-betancourt-lester-vargas-liriano.html) than the Reds checked in on him (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/red-sox-notes-ortiz-lester-luxury-tax.html). He moved to none of them. Stop pretending he was just sitting there like an apple to pick off a tree when Boston didn't sell, period.

And with the other points you make about needing some help on the offensive side, would you really advocate trading away our limited farm system for a marginal pitching improvement (which itself is arguable), just because he throws left-handed?

Mr.Redleg82
08-13-2012, 08:16 PM
How appropriate, today is national left-handers day. No joke, they urge righties to do things left handed on this day. Google it.

texasdave
08-13-2012, 08:27 PM
How appropriate, today is national left-handers day. No joke, they urge righties to do things left handed on this day. Google it.


I am in the spirit. I just picked my nose left handed. The site proclaims they want to raise awareness. Of what? That some people are lefties? :laugh:

Mr.Redleg82
08-13-2012, 08:37 PM
I am in the spirit. I just picked my nose left handed. The site proclaims they want to raise awareness. Of what? That some people are lefties? :laugh:

Lol, I was wondering the same. I guess they want to raise awareness of how "tough" things are for lefties sometimes. Using a spiral notebook or a pair of scissors for example.

'69 & Vine
08-13-2012, 11:34 PM
Other than this one and only opportunity in the entire season to date that the Reds are probably inserting another arm to start... are you really implying that adding Jeff Francis into the rotation at the expense of a current staff member would improve the team?

Not at all, the point was this was our only option for a LH Starter, though he had a good spring training, it would be a downgrade with any of member of the rotation.



This is where infatuation with leftyism for the sake of it turns into reductio ad absurdum. And yes, I acknowledge the platoon advantages it can get you in baseball.

Jon Lester? Did I miss him switching teams to someone to indicate that Boston even intended to "run him out of town" at a reasonable price? Several teams (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/braves-inquired-about-jon-lester.html) in much greater need of pitching (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/cafardo-on-betancourt-lester-vargas-liriano.html) than the Reds checked in on him (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/red-sox-notes-ortiz-lester-luxury-tax.html). He moved to none of them. Stop pretending he was just sitting there like an apple to pick off a tree when Boston didn't sell, period.

The rumors and articles at the time suggested he would be available, I advocated going after Ellisbury/Sweeney plus Lester.


And with the other points you make about needing some help on the offensive side, would you really advocate trading away our limited farm system for a marginal pitching improvement (which itself is arguable), just because he throws left-handed?

Of course not, but there should be better balance on the roster before the start of the season. A few weeks ago I looked up recent pennant winners with an all-righty rotation and IIRC, there weren't many to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I like this team but I have the nagging feeling of overachieving.

Larkin88
08-14-2012, 09:51 AM
Not at all, the point was this was our only option for a LH Starter, though he had a good spring training, it would be a downgrade with any of member of the rotation.

The rumors and articles at the time suggested he would be available, I advocated going after Ellisbury/Sweeney plus Lester.

Of course not, but there should be better balance on the roster before the start of the season. A few weeks ago I looked up recent pennant winners with an all-righty rotation and IIRC, there weren't many to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I like this team but I have the nagging feeling of overachieving.

I think it's important to remember that there was a very strong chance Chapman, one of the ultimate left handed pitching talents, was going to enter the season in the rotation until Madson got injured for the year forcing a reevaluation of the bullpen. Also, I think the team was assuming Juan Francisco would be playing a large role offensively until he showed up to camp late, fat and with his usual attitude issues again.

Regarding Francis, I don't think the Reds would disagree with your assessment really. If it was up to the Reds, I'm not convinced they wouldn't still want him in Louisville to provide that organizational depth in the case of emergency, as he was. But, his contract was such that it allowed him to opt out by a certain time period if he wasn't getting called up. Didn't make sense to call him up with the way the rotation was going when that date came, so the team granted him the release he requested.

For the record, I don't disagree with you in principle. For me personally, the lack of lefties is more negatively apparent on our bench and on the 25-man roster. Yes, that is a product of the moves the front office has made, but I also give them the benefit of the doubt that obvious moves to that end haven't been there affordably.

As bad as the results were, I do give the team credit for trying to get Willie Harris to work on occasion to give us an additional lefty option. And I think them doing that out of the gate when Frazier was obviously outperforming him in camp reflected the team identifying a righty heavy lineup. But, I also contend that the roster we ultimately have now reflects the best talent currently available in the organization, even if it isn't ideal from a lefty-righty balance.

P.E.R#14
08-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Thanks for brining cost up Larkin.

I feel too many people think Walt should be fielding a lineup like the Yankees. Actually, a lineup similar, but younger than the Yankees. Nine All-Star starters with three Cy Young Award winners. This is Cincinnati, Ohio. "Fly-over" country. Mid-level major, if you will. Simply because someone may be available doesn't mean the Reds can afford to pick him up. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Walt Jocketty is doing, and will continue to do, what he feels will make the Cincinnati Reds a better baseball team not only this year, but for years to come.

Sit back, RELAX, grab a cold one and just watch the best Reds season in ages unfold.


Go Reds!!