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View Full Version : Who still wants Gio G. over Mat L.?



Trajinous
08-15-2012, 12:11 PM
The Reds made the absolute right decision. Many dissenters and Negative Nancys wouldn't stop yelling that the Reds should have traded for Gio Gonzalez at the beginning of the year. Now in the middle August, would those people still want Gio instead?

Didn't think so! Red's have two legitimate aces now and the front runner in the Cy Young.

BungleBengals
08-15-2012, 12:15 PM
The Reds made the absolute right decision. Many dissenters and Negative Nancys wouldn't stop yelling that the Reds should have traded for Gio Gonzalez at the beginning of the year. Now in the middle August, would those people still want Gio instead?

Didn't think so! Red's have two legitimate aces now and the front runner in the Cy Young.

I think Latos has really come into his own since April. I like him better because of age and he seems zoned in his past few starts.

Gio would have been nice because he is a lefty, but I am happy the way things turned out.

MrRedLegger
08-15-2012, 12:35 PM
I was thinking this last night, it's amazing that Latos could have 15 wins barring 4 blown saves and scoring a run before the 9th last night. It's incredible he's 10-3 and the team is 15-9 when he starts. Yes he had a few shaky games in April and especially the 5 HR game against Colorado, but he's been solid solid solid.

His interview last night gave insight to how he approaches the game. He's very selfless, saying that [I don't care if you put an infielder on the mound, as long as we can get a win] Not having a decision last night doesn't phase him. Possibly being 15-3 doesn't bother him at all. He's an all-out stud and I thank Mr. Jocketty for getting him here.

And his wife is pretty.

WDE
08-15-2012, 12:42 PM
I love Latos. Right now, I would take him on the mound over Cueto. He is on, and has been on for the whole month. It's fun to watch him right now, and if he continues this, well, it could be a very special playoffs for us this year.

jrandal9
08-15-2012, 01:04 PM
I really don't want to do this but...I TOLD YOU NON BELIEVERS SO! Latos is a really good pitcher and he will only have that ERA drop further. Thank you, thank you!.

malcontent
08-15-2012, 01:41 PM
Latos hasn't caught up to GG quite yet. MLB ERA rankings:

23 Gonzalez WSH 15-6 3.29 147.2 113 56 158 1.14 (WHIP)

36 Latos CIN 10-3 3.63 148.2 130 46 134 1.18 (WHIP)

Really, it depends on what Oakland would have demanded.

Trajinous
08-15-2012, 01:43 PM
I really don't want to do this but...I TOLD YOU NON BELIEVERS SO! Latos is a really good pitcher and he will only have that ERA drop further. Thank you, thank you!.

I think it's fine to say I told you so. Especially when it's positive opinions for the players on our team. Lato's has had 2 full seasons prior and was bad in April also. It's not surprising! He then went on a crazy scoreless run with the Padres and could be at the beginning of a run for the Reds.

HometownHero
08-15-2012, 02:52 PM
I would be happy with either one but if it was a big game I would like Gio more because he's less HR prone.

Hillsdale87
08-15-2012, 02:58 PM
Latos hasn't caught up to GG quite yet. MLB ERA rankings:

23 Gonzalez WSH 15-6 3.29 147.2 113 56 158 1.14 (WHIP)

36 Latos CIN 10-3 3.63 148.2 130 46 134 1.18 (WHIP)

Really, it depends on what Oakland would have demanded.

Gonzalez is also pitching in a huge park while Latos pitches in a launching pad. I'd say it's pretty much a wash at this point. They're going in opposite directions too. Gonzalez was unhittable at the start of the season and has regressed. Latos is getting stronger later in the season

BungleBengals
08-15-2012, 03:06 PM
I know they are not the only reasons for it, but both guys were aquired and both teams turned around to have the best and second best records in all MLB. I do not think you could go wrong with either. Latos is just exciting to watch though. He is huge and intimidating IMO.

justincredible
08-15-2012, 03:29 PM
It really is a shame people still hate on him for ridiculous reasons. Saw a Reds fan on twitter last night talking about how they hate Latos because he's nothing but a tattooed punk with a bad attitude that likes to show up the other team on the mound.

What?

Trajinous
08-15-2012, 03:39 PM
I would be happy with either one but if it was a big game I would like Gio more because he's less HR prone.

You should look how both are pitching lately. Latos had a bad first month while Gio had a ridiculously good first month. Gio is on a downward trend while Latos is on the upward. Their stats are similar but it looks like Lato's "stock" will keep rising.

ERA Pre-All Star Post-All Star
Latos 4.13 2.45
Gonzalez 2.92 4.11

Since both are most likely be playing in the playoffs, I'd rather have the pitcher that's good at the end of the season.

nate1213
08-15-2012, 03:45 PM
Gonzalez is also pitching in a huge park while Latos pitches in a launching pad. I'd say it's pretty much a wash at this point. They're going in opposite directions too. Gonzalez was unhittable at the start of the season and has regressed. Latos is getting stronger later in the season

Gonzalez has an ERA+ of 120. Latos is at 117. So yeah, they are pretty close.

HometownHero
08-15-2012, 04:05 PM
You should look how both are pitching lately. Latos had a bad first month while Gio had a ridiculously good first month. Gio is on a downward trend while Latos is on the upward. Their stats are similar but it looks like Lato's "stock" will keep rising.

ERA Pre-All Star Post-All Star
Latos 4.13 2.45
Gonzalez 2.92 4.11

Since both are most likely be playing in the playoffs, I'd rather have the pitcher that's good at the end of the season.

Small sample size, Mat has had 3 great games this month to help his numbers for the half and Gio has had his lone terrible stat during the same time frame to make his worse. If you have to win a playoff game where runs are a premium I will always want the guy who keeps it in the park.

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Latos hasn't caught up to GG quite yet. MLB ERA rankings:

23 Gonzalez WSH 15-6 3.29 147.2 113 56 158 1.14 (WHIP)

36 Latos CIN 10-3 3.63 148.2 130 46 134 1.18 (WHIP)

Really, it depends on what Oakland would have demanded.

Well, based on what they did demand, it would have to have been a similar prospect haul but more centered around young pitching prospects that offensive talent that was blocked on the current club. I, personally, am glad to have Corcino and Cingrani still under the club's control versus having duplicate first basemen and duplicate young catchers, even if their ceiling is high.

You've been probably one of the biggest opponents to the Latos trade this season. In fact, I think you agreed that this might go down as "the trade" (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95432) in terms of the worst in the team's history. If memory serves me correctly, that's mostly because you value Grandal over Mesoraco, though. Have you softened your stance on that, or still think this is a loss for the Reds?

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 04:21 PM
I would be happy with either one but if it was a big game I would like Gio more because he's less HR prone.

Yet way more prone to walks.

I'm with you, though. Both are elite young pitching talents, so sorta splitting hairs when you try to decide who has the larger upside.

malcontent
08-15-2012, 05:27 PM
Well, based on what they did demand, it would have to have been a similar prospect haul but more centered around young pitching prospects that offensive talent that was blocked on the current club. I, personally, am glad to have Corcino and Cingrani still under the club's control versus having duplicate first basemen and duplicate young catchers, even if their ceiling is high.

You've been probably one of the biggest opponents to the Latos trade this season. In fact, I think you agreed that this might go down as "the trade" (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95432) in terms of the worst in the team's history. If memory serves me correctly, that's mostly because you value Grandal over Mesoraco, though. Have you softened your stance on that, or still think this is a loss for the Reds?
It wasn't that I thought Latos was entirely a Petco product.

It was that I thought the 4-for-1 was just too much to give up, and yes, primarily because of Grandal. I'm as relieved as anyone that Latos seems to be kicking it in. I was starting to think that he was gonna be a bust (by that I mean far less than an elite starter).

Interesting point you make regarding Corcino and Cingrani. Alonso was redundant. No great loss there, judging by his season to-date.

I just have never understood why they even drafted Grandal in the first place....especially with Chris Sale staring them in the face.

smixsell
08-15-2012, 05:43 PM
I love Latos. Right now, I would take him on the mound over Cueto. He is on, and has been on for the whole month. It's fun to watch him right now, and if he continues this, well, it could be a very special playoffs for us this year.

Bingo. The Reds are a world championship contender IMO thanks to Latos and Johnny C at the top of our playoff rotation.

smixsell
08-15-2012, 05:45 PM
PS Latos also looks like a "big game pitcher" to me. If the season ended today I give him the ball in game 1 of any series, and would want him on the mound in a game 7.

Maker_84
08-15-2012, 05:54 PM
Who do people want more between Latos and Strasburg i think is the better question. 2 pretty evenly talented pitchers with Latos maybe holding the edge

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 06:14 PM
Who do people want more between Latos and Strasburg i think is the better question. 2 pretty evenly talented pitchers with Latos maybe holding the edge

Vehemently disagree with both of those points.

I hold Latos in exceptionally high regard. Right now, though, he does not hold any edge over Strasburg who has to be top of the class for young pitching talent.

Plus, this conversation is more around comparing Gio and Latos who were both acquired in the offseason, both for equally large prospect hauls.

Trajinous
08-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Who do people want more between Latos and Strasburg i think is the better question. 2 pretty evenly talented pitchers with Latos maybe holding the edge

Homerism aside, I would take Latos. Easy decision in my mind.

Strasburg can't last more than 6 innings! He's a high pitch count/high strikeout guy similar to Volquez. His K/9 rate is great but forces the team to use an extra bullpen arm or two everytime he starts!

Latos has two complete games this year. Strasburg has NEVER pitched 8 innings before, NEVER PITCHED PAST THE 7th!. It takes Strasburg 100 pitches to get through 6 innings while Latos has thrown 109 and 115 pitch count complete games (this year and back to back).

Latos has the more consistent history and no inning limits. Strasburg hasn't a pitched full season yet on top of his TMJ surgery. Innings pitched from 2010 to 2012, Latos has 528 innings while Strasburg has 225 innings. Whips are similar this year and walks are a wash too.

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 08:09 PM
Homerism aside, I would take Latos. Easy decision in my mind.

Strasburg can't last more than 6 innings! He's a high pitch count/high strikeout guy similar to Volquez. His K/9 rate is great but forces the team to use an extra bullpen arm or two everytime he starts!

Latos has two complete games this year. Strasburg has NEVER pitched 8 innings before, NEVER PITCHED PAST THE 7th!. It takes Strasburg 100 pitches to get through 6 innings while Latos has thrown 109 and 115 pitch count complete games (this year and back to back).

Latos has the more consistent history and no inning limits. Strasburg hasn't a pitched full season yet on top of his TMJ surgery. Innings pitched from 2010 to 2012, Latos has 528 innings while Strasburg has 225 innings. Whips are similar this year and walks are a wash too.

By general rule, guys who get a lot of outs from strikeouts tend to throw more pitches. Yes. And I don't mean to pick on you on that first point, but saying that Strasburg is a similar pitcher to Volquez is pretty laughable.

For starters, Strasburg walks about half of the batters Volquez does. Literally half. Strasburg's ERA this season is 2.90 and his fielding independent numbers are closer to 2.70. Volquez came close to matching those numbers exactly once in 2008 and his fielding independent numbers were still almost a full point higher than Strasburg's are in this, his first full season pitching (to date). Nevermind that he averages a full 3 strikeouts more than Volquez on a good day anyway. Strasburg pitches circles around Volquez, and Volquez has the benefit of Petco now.

As for the pitch count, Latos and Strasburg are at very different points in their introduction to the majors. And it's stupid to try to compare their 2010s anyway, when Strasburg wasn't even playing until half-way through June and spent some time on the DL. You're essentially comparing two years of service time to four years, anyway, because of the Tommy John and the fact that Latos debuted in 2009.

I love Mat Latos. I was thrilled when the Reds got him and think he will be a cornerstone, if not THE cornerstone for the rotation over the next few years. (With all due respect to the sensational Cueto) You raise some interesting points about durability. At the very least, though, no way would it be an "easy decision" for me to take Latos over Strasburg.

In the end, you all may well be right and Latos might end up being the more productive starter in their career if injuries get in Strasburg's way. But his potential upside is just far too intriguing. And even at this point, I would argue he is a superior pitcher.

Todd Gack
08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
It really is a shame people still hate on him for ridiculous reasons. Saw a Reds fan on twitter last night talking about how they hate Latos because he's nothing but a tattooed punk with a bad attitude that likes to show up the other team on the mound.

What?

Am I allowed to make fun of his loud-mouthed, annoying, spoiled, and immature wife?

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 08:58 PM
Am I allowed to make fun of his loud-mouthed, annoying, spoiled, and immature wife?

Yes, just not on Twitter. Even if you don't explicitly direct them to her account.

You might cause her to go into a catastrophic meltdown where she will deactivate her account again to make a point of what we'd all be missing.

Or not missing, as far as I'm concerned.

Ironman92
08-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Latos is clearly the best pitcher in baseball.

bigredmechanism
08-15-2012, 09:26 PM
Latos is clearly the best pitcher in baseball.

He's third, behind Cueto and Chapman. :D

Ironman92
08-15-2012, 09:47 PM
I like Latos and did like the signing....but there are some huge homers on here. Lol

I don't think a single Reds fan would be unhappy with Gio. A tough-minded lefty that....oh well he pitches in pitcher friendly Nats park......wonder what his stats are like on the road because Nats Park is such a pitcher's inflated park.

Gio Gonzalez on the road in 2012....

10-2

Opponents OPS .594

At home? 5-4 with a .592 OPS

Latos is great....glad we have him...but Gio's stats are great because he has been great.

Latos very good record home/away OPS .707 at home and .708 on the road.

Trajinous
08-15-2012, 09:49 PM
By general rule, guys who get a lot of outs from strikeouts tend to throw more pitches. Yes. And I don't mean to pick on you on that first point, but saying that Strasburg is a similar pitcher to Volquez is pretty laughable.

For starters, Strasburg walks about half of the batters Volquez does. Literally half. Strasburg's ERA this season is 2.90 and his fielding independent numbers are closer to 2.70. Volquez came close to matching those numbers exactly once in 2008 and his fielding independent numbers were still almost a full point higher than Strasburg's are in this, his first full season pitching (to date). Nevermind that he averages a full 3 strikeouts more than Volquez on a good day anyway. Strasburg pitches circles around Volquez, and Volquez has the benefit of Petco now.

As for the pitch count, Latos and Strasburg are at very different points in their introduction to the majors. And it's stupid to try to compare their 2010s anyway, when Strasburg wasn't even playing until half-way through June and spent some time on the DL. You're essentially comparing two years of service time to four years, anyway, because of the Tommy John and the fact that Latos debuted in 2009.

I love Mat Latos. I was thrilled when the Reds got him and think he will be a cornerstone, if not THE cornerstone for the rotation over the next few years. (With all due respect to the sensational Cueto) You raise some interesting points about durability. At the very least, though, no way would it be an "easy decision" for me to take Latos over Strasburg.

In the end, you all may well be right and Latos might end up being the more productive starter in their career if injuries get in Strasburg's way. But his potential upside is just far too intriguing. And even at this point, I would argue he is a superior pitcher.

I only meant to use Volquez as an example of a pitcher with high strikeout rate that quickly racks up a pitch count (ie. Max Scherzer or Tim Lincecum or Gio Gonazalez). That's all I meant by that statement, it is ridiculous to compare the two.

I'll give you the fact that Strasburg made his debut halfway through the season BUT the kid got hurt. Latos and Strasburg are the same age and over the same 3 years period, Latos has pitched twice the number of innings! It shows his ability to sustain a level of dominant pitching without getting hurt. We won't know how Strasburg will perform in his first 580 innings for another season or two. Strasburg's pitching motion was a huge concern when he made his debut, many critics said it was a matter of time until he was injured. It sounds like you are giving Strasburg a pass for being injury prone.

We are just going to disagree in the importance of sustainability of a starter. By that I mean how many innings a starter lasts. It's why players like Verlander, Holliday, Peavy, Hernandez are considered aces and the best in a game. They pitch well and deep into games. I'd rather have a starter last two more innings than get 6 more strikeouts. It's just more valuable since it saves your bullpen arms. Strasburg is going to need at least 2 bullpen arms to cover for the other 3-4 innings left in the game when he leaves. Even with the Red's bullpen, the extra workload will takes it's toll over the course of the season.

If I was a GM and the choice of Latos or Strasburg, Latos would be the better investment especially with Strasburg's injury history being so young.

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 10:06 PM
I only meant to use Volquez as an example of a pitcher with high strikeout rate that quickly racks up a pitch count (ie. Max Scherzer or Tim Lincecum or Gio Gonazalez). That's all I meant by that statement, it is ridiculous to compare the two.

I'll give you the fact that Strasburg made his debut halfway through the season BUT the kid got hurt. Latos and Strasburg are the same age and over the same 3 years period, Latos has pitched twice the number of innings! It shows his ability to sustain a level of dominant pitching without getting hurt. We won't know how Strasburg will perform in his first 580 innings for another season or two. Strasburg's pitching motion was a huge concern when he made his debut, many critics said it was a matter of time until he was injured. It sounds like you are giving Strasburg a pass for being injury prone.

We are just going to disagree in the importance of sustainability of a starter. By that I mean how many innings a starter lasts. It's why players like Verlander, Holliday, Peavy, Hernandez are considered aces and the best in a game. They pitch well and deep into games. I'd rather have a starter last two more innings than get 6 more strikeouts. It's just more valuable since it saves your bullpen arms. Strasburg is going to need at least 2 bullpen arms to cover for the other 3-4 innings left in the game when he leaves. Even with the Red's bullpen, the extra workload will takes it's toll over the course of the season.

If I was a GM and the choice of Latos or Strasburg, Latos would be the better investment especially with Strasburg's injury history being so young.

Good post. Fair enough.

Thanks for clearing that Volquez bit up for me. ;)

Trajinous
08-15-2012, 10:36 PM
Strasburg to me is the best #2 pitcher in the game. Pair him with any ace and they become the best 1-2 combo.

improbus
08-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Gio generates more swings and misses than Latos on a variety of pitches.
Gonzalez:
Two seam: 6.1%
General Fastball 10.4%
Curveball: 12.1%
Changeup: 18.5%

Latos:
Fastball: 6.8%
Slider: 19.8%
Cut Fastball: 6.2%
Curveball: 6.5%
Two Seam Fastball: 5.5%
Changeup: 8.2%

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 11:11 PM
Strasburg to me is the best #2 pitcher in the game. Pair him with any ace and they become the best 1-2 combo.

Well now you lost me again, haha.

No worries! Agree to disagree.

Larkin88
08-15-2012, 11:15 PM
Just going to leave this here. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=nl&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
Don't mind me.

smixsell
08-16-2012, 04:21 PM
Never wanted Gio over Latos. Always knew Latos would come good.:)

MrRedLegger
08-16-2012, 04:37 PM
Just going to leave this here. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=nl&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
Don't mind me.

Do you agree with Latos' WAR being 1.8? (The same as Leake's)

WAR is different for every database calculating it. WAR is one of the things I take lighter than other graphs/statistics.

10 wins vs Leake's 5 and somehow their WAR is equivalent?

bigredmechanism
08-16-2012, 04:38 PM
Never wanted Gio over Latos. Always knew Latos would come good.:)

I am with you on that. 24 year old with a big frame and great stuff? Sign me up. Gio is a fine young pitcher, very very good, but walks will always be a problem for a team who plays half their games in a small park.

Trajinous
08-16-2012, 06:18 PM
Do you agree with Latos' WAR being 1.8? (The same as Leake's)

WAR is different for every database calculating it. WAR is one of the things I take lighter than other graphs/statistics.

10 wins vs Leake's 5 and somehow their WAR is equivalent?

I think WAR is good for generalization. It breaks down especially with defense measures since there are two different kind of WAR calculations that can give the same player up to 2-3 different WAR values.

The Rage
08-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Latos is very inconsistant. If he can get on a roll and get results like in the last 3 starts, his war will shoot up past Leake's.

DocRed
08-17-2012, 01:44 PM
Gio has 15 wins and a 3.29 ERA this year....yeesh. I would still take him over Latos.

WDE
08-17-2012, 01:48 PM
IMO, Latos will have a better career than Gio. We are seeing him maturing this year at a very fast pace. Look for him to be in the Cy Young race for years to come.

Trajinous
08-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Gio has 15 wins and a 3.29 ERA this year....yeesh. I would still take him over Latos.

Latos has easily outpitched Gonzalez post All-Star break. He also has a 0.42 ERA compared to Gonzalez's 3.42 ERA in August.

Gonzalez is a great #3 pitcher but I don't see him as a ace-type pitcher.

DocRed
08-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Latos has easily outpitched Gonzalez post All-Star break. He also has a 0.42 ERA compared to Gonzalez's 3.42 ERA in August.

Gonzalez is a great #3 pitcher but I don't see him as a ace-type pitcher.

Yes and statistics say he is due for a downturn soon. Don't get me wrong I love how Latos is pitching but I certainly am not naive enough to think he will continue to throw this well through the end of the season. You cannot fight statistics and regression to the mean.

Kiko
08-17-2012, 04:59 PM
How long do the Nats control Gio? The big upside to the Latos deal is that the Reds control him for four years or something like that. This should be taken into consideration when comparing the two deals.

Trajinous
08-17-2012, 06:06 PM
Yes and statistics say he is due for a downturn soon. Don't get me wrong I love how Latos is pitching but I certainly am not naive enough to think he will continue to throw this well through the end of the season. You cannot fight statistics and regression to the mean.

Huh? Latos is pitching worse than his career stats. Gio is the one overachieving compared to his career stats. If any should be digressing, it would be Gio. Where do the stats say Latos should regress?

Latos set a major league record with a 7 inning, 10 strikeout performance in a win against the Dodgers. The victory was Latos' 15th consecutive start logging at least 5 innings and allowing 2 or fewer earned runs, the longest streak in modern baseball history (since 1900) (source Wikipedia)

Larkin88
08-18-2012, 12:15 PM
Latos has easily outpitched Gonzalez post All-Star break. He also has a 0.42 ERA compared to Gonzalez's 3.42 ERA in August.

Gonzalez is a great #3 pitcher but I don't see him as a ace-type pitcher.

I'm not even necessarily drawing the Latos comparisons anymore. But in this thread, you've now said you think that Strasburg is a good #2 pitcher and Gonzalez is a good #3 type pitcher. If you've paid attention to them this year and followed the scouting, I just don't see how you could possibly say that was the case.

That's why I posted the link to pitching performances. You're basically saying that two of the very most productive pitchers in the National League aren't even potential top of the rotation material. I am saying that I strongly disagree with that. Latos notwithstanding.


Do you agree with Latos' WAR being 1.8? (The same as Leake's)

WAR is different for every database calculating it. WAR is one of the things I take lighter than other graphs/statistics.

You can't ignore the struggles he had early in the season as they relate to that number, though. And I'm not angry about them... I was arguing then that I thought he would find his footing (like he has) and was one of the most excited guys on here when we got him.

As others have pointed out, Latos has been untouchable since the All-Star break. I think his recent numbers, rather than the early season adjustments, are more indicative of what we can expect from him. It's especially exciting to see him dominate in Great American. Draw that out over a full year, and he's towards the top of the WAR list on the season as well.

And there's really only two notable calculations for WAR, Fangraphs and Baseball Reference. I (like a lot of numbers guys) use Fangraphs. For an explanation of those differences, here's a little overview (http://www.fangraphs.com/forums/topic.php?id=6560).

The Rage
08-18-2012, 01:33 PM
I'm not even necessarily drawing the Latos comparisons anymore. But in this thread, you've now said you think that Strasburg is a good #2 pitcher and Gonzalez is a good #3 type pitcher. If you've paid attention to them this year and followed the scouting, I just don't see how you could possibly say that was the case.

That's why I posted the link to pitching performances. You're basically saying that two of the very most productive pitchers in the National League aren't even potential top of the rotation material. I am saying that I strongly disagree with that. Latos notwithstanding.



You can't ignore the struggles he had early in the season as they relate to that number, though. And I'm not angry about them... I was arguing then that I thought he would find his footing (like he has) and was one of the most excited guys on here when we got him.

As others have pointed out, Latos has been untouchable since the All-Star break. I think his recent numbers, rather than the early season adjustments, are more indicative of what we can expect from him. It's especially exciting to see him dominate in Great American. Draw that out over a full year, and he's towards the top of the WAR list on the season as well.

And there's really only two notable calculations for WAR, Fangraphs and Baseball Reference. I (like a lot of numbers guys) use Fangraphs. For an explanation of those differences, here's a little overview (http://www.fangraphs.com/forums/topic.php?id=6560).

Mat had a bad 3 game stretch directly after the all-star break. It is why his WAR is being held back. If he has another bad 3 game stretch, it will further hurt him. That said, no way he goes as bad as Bailey. Mat has shown he can hold up through a season.