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I(heart)Freel
08-16-2012, 10:15 AM
Just in time for them to tie the Pirates, Fuentes could be out rest of season.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/fuentes-leaves-cardinals/article_58d3a065-0953-5bde-acd6-291584389eb0.html

oneupper
08-16-2012, 10:16 AM
He pitched in all of 6 games for the Cards, and not well. This isn't much of a hit.

I(heart)Freel
08-16-2012, 10:27 AM
He pitched in all of 6 games for the Cards, and not well. This isn't much of a hit.

True, but a July pickup they somewhat counted on going forward. The quotes imply that they aren't happy with the situation, since they would've looked for other LH bullpeners. So I'll call it a hit.

oneupper
08-16-2012, 10:40 AM
"It had been a challenge at times with three lefties," Matheny said. "I think having two is going to be something we’ll deal with fine."

Matheny seems to be fine with the loss of Fuentes. Anyway, Molina's sore back seems to me, is much more of a setback for the Cards. There's a huge gap between Molina and his backup.

traderumor
08-16-2012, 11:07 AM
Matheny seems to be fine with the loss of Fuentes. Anyway, Molina's sore back seems to me, is much more of a setback for the Cards. There's a huge gap between Molina and his backup.I'm glad he's fine with the two lefties he has, both which are not getting too many guys out.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 12:51 PM
There is going to be a log jam soon anyway when Garcia comes back. I feel more comfortable with Joe Kelly in the pen than Fuentes. At any rate, Fuentes was more of taking a flyer on the guy. The real aquisition was Mujica, who's been lights out since he joined the Cards. It looks like they solidified the black hole of the 7th inning they've been dealing with all year.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 12:56 PM
I'm glad he's fine with the two lefties he has, both which are not getting too many guys out.

Browning has been decent for the Cardinals since his call up. This is a situation where the 4.24 can be a bit misleading. I'm looking at the game logs and he does well when brought in specifically to get out lefties. He tends to give up more runs when left out there for an inning or more. Lefties are only hitting .156 off of him with a .515 OPS.

Tommyjohn25
08-16-2012, 01:25 PM
There is going to be a log jam soon anyway when Garcia comes back. I feel more comfortable with Joe Kelly in the pen than Fuentes. At any rate, Fuentes was more of taking a flyer on the guy. The real aquisition was Mujica, who's been lights out since he joined the Cards. It looks like they solidified the black hole of the 7th inning they've been dealing with all year.

What is the status on Garcia? I haven't heard anything in a while.

PuffyPig
08-16-2012, 02:03 PM
Browning has been decent for the Cardinals since his call up. This is a situation where the 4.24 can be a bit misleading. I'm looking at the game logs and he does well when brought in specifically to get out lefties. He tends to give up more runs when left out there for an inning or more. Lefties are only hitting .156 off of him with a .515 OPS.

Fuentes is no hit, he likley would have been gone the second Garcia came back.

Browning looks more like a AAAA type guy, doesn't miss bats, and relying upon a low .200 BABIP and low HR/FB rate to currently survive. LOOGY's need top strike out guys, and he's not your man for that.

Mujica has had great control and results for the Cards. But he's also not missing many bats, so we'll have to see what happens when his BABIP rises above the current .211 number, and (Cards) HR/FB rate gets to above 0.

He's likely a 4.00 ERA type guy, as his 3.99 xFIP suggests. A bloop and a blast is in his future.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 03:02 PM
Fuentes is no hit, he likley would have been gone the second Garcia came back.

Browning looks more like a AAAA type guy, doesn't miss bats, and relying upon a low .200 BABIP and low HR/FB rate to currently survive. LOOGY's need top strike out guys, and he's not your man for that.

Mujica has had great control and results for the Cards. But he's also not missing many bats, so we'll have to see what happens when his BABIP rises above the current .211 number, and (Cards) HR/FB rate gets to above 0.

He's likely a 4.00 ERA type guy, as his 3.99 xFIP suggests. A bloop and a blast is in his future.

It looks like they were using Mujica in Miami all wrong. He's horrible in high leverage situations, which he was experiencing in Miami. Opponents are SLG .590 when he's put into those situations. However, he is very good in low and medium leverage situations. Being the 7th inning guy is a low to medium leverage situation. Matheny would be crazy to bring him out in the 9th inning or even in extra inning situations however he can be very effective for the role the Cardinals need him. Certainly he's a better option than they've had in the 7th inning prior to the Cards getting him. The middle innings have been the singular reason as to why their record doesn't match their run differential. It's been no mystery, to me at least, as to why the Cardinals have gone on a "run" since they stabilized those middle innings.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 03:04 PM
What is the status on Garcia? I haven't heard anything in a while.

He's being activated Sunday against the Pirates. That pushes Joe Kelly to the bullpen.

Joe Kelly has a very good fast ball so he might be more effective in the pen, though he has given the Cardinals a chance to win in pretty much all of his starts. Kelly has a promising future considering that he is just a year removed from low A ball. Needs to work on secondary pitches though.

traderumor
08-16-2012, 04:11 PM
He's being activated Sunday against the Pirates. That pushes Joe Kelly to the bullpen.

Joe Kelly has a very good fast ball so he might be more effective in the pen, though he has given the Cardinals a chance to win in pretty much all of his starts. Kelly has a promising future considering that he is just a year removed from low A ball. Needs to work on secondary pitches though.Kelly looked pedestrian in the start I watched him against the Giants. I realize the D didn't help, but he looked "a year removed from low A ball." He's most likely a sacrificial lamb to avoid stunting more highly regarded pitching prospects.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 04:25 PM
Kelly looked pedestrian in the start I watched him against the Giants. I realize the D didn't help, but he looked "a year removed from low A ball." He's most likely a sacrificial lamb to avoid stunting more highly regarded pitching prospects.

That's fine if you're going to use a single observation in one game but it doesn't tell you the whole story. If I'm using your logic, Mat Latos sucks as a pitcher.

Kelly averaged 93.9 MPH on his fastball so he does have lively stuff. In 8 of his 12 starts, he gave the Cardinals 6 innings. In all of those starts, he allowed 3 or fewer runs. That Giants game was bad, but on a whole he was an excellent replacement for Garcia. I didn't know a whole lot about him when he was called up but I like what I saw in the majority of his starts. Again, he needs to brush up on his secondary pitches but still has a lot of upside in my opinion. Certainly he offers the Cardinals cost control moving forward if they decide not to pick up Westbrook's option or fail to resign Lohse.

traderumor
08-16-2012, 05:12 PM
That's fine if you're going to use a single observation in one game but it doesn't tell you the whole story. If I'm using your logic, Mat Latos sucks as a pitcher.

Kelly averaged 93.9 MPH on his fastball so he does have lively stuff. In 8 of his 12 starts, he gave the Cardinals 6 innings. In all of those starts, he allowed 3 or fewer runs. That Giants game was bad, but on a whole he was an excellent replacement for Garcia. I didn't know a whole lot about him when he was called up but I like what I saw in the majority of his starts. Again, he needs to brush up on his secondary pitches but still has a lot of upside in my opinion. Certainly he offers the Cardinals cost control moving forward if they decide not to pick up Westbrook's option or fail to resign Lohse.Except Latos has had dozens of opportunities for you to see him and a major league track record, so you could look and say "boy, I didn't see much, must've been an off night." You're talking about a rookie first time through the league. Not really a great comparison. My, your defensive, esp. on anyone who's done anything at all good in a Cards uniform.

Fast promotions usually mean one of two things: top talent or space filler. Kelly looks like space filler due to a depth issue with major league ready guys. Just because he has not sucked doesn't mean he has a "bright future."

But then, it all comes back to your tendency to overrate your guys, and especially prospects, except for a few whipping boys like Tyler Greene.

PuffyPig
08-16-2012, 05:37 PM
Kelly averaged 93.9 MPH on his fastball so he does have lively stuff. In 8 of his 12 starts, he gave the Cardinals 6 innings. In all of those starts, he allowed 3 or fewer runs. That Giants game was bad, but on a whole he was an excellent replacement for Garcia. I didn't know a whole lot about him when he was called up but I like what I saw in the majority of his starts. Again, he needs to brush up on his secondary pitches but still has a lot of upside in my opinion. Certainly he offers the Cardinals cost control moving forward if they decide not to pick up Westbrook's option or fail to resign Lohse.

I liked what I saw of Kelly. He certainly pitched a whole lot better than garcia was giving them. he kept them in every game, more or less. I expect he'll look better as a reliever like Lance Lynn did previously. I'd be surprised if he doesn't take over for Mujica as the 7th inning guy. He reminds me of Leake (sorta) as he's a pretty good all around athelite. He won't generally beat himself.

I'm not a big believer that a guy can "thrive in the 7th inning, but is horrible in the 8th inning stuff". Especially when BABIP is likely the only difference between the two results.

757690
08-16-2012, 05:47 PM
I liked what I saw of Kelly. He certainly pitched a whole lot better than garcia was giving them. he kept them in every game, more or less. I expect he'll look better as a reliever like Lance Lynn did previously. I'd be surprised if he doesn't take over for Mujica as the 7th inning guy. He reminds me of Leake (sorta) as he's a pretty good all around athelite. He won't generally beat himself.

I'm not a big believer that a guy can "thrive in the 7th inning, but is horrible in the 8th inning stuff". Especially when BABIP is likely the only difference between the two results.

Agree. I really like Kelly. Mike is right about him needing to develop better off speed pitches, but his fastball is MLB quality plus, and his overall makeup is strong. He looks like a solid future #3 starter if he can develop better secondary pitches.

Tornon
08-16-2012, 06:00 PM
I frankly thought the Cardinals took more of a hit when they signed Fuentes

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 06:28 PM
I frankly thought the Cardinals took more of a hit when they signed Fuentes

hahaha I kind of agree here. When they signed him I thought to myself "really... REALLY??". More power to him I guess but it was sort of a "meh" move to me.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 06:40 PM
Except Latos has had dozens of opportunities for you to see him and a major league track record, so you could look and say "boy, I didn't see much, must've been an off night." You're talking about a rookie first time through the league. Not really a great comparison. My, your defensive, esp. on anyone who's done anything at all good in a Cards uniform.

Fast promotions usually mean one of two things: top talent or space filler. Kelly looks like space filler due to a depth issue with major league ready guys. Just because he has not sucked doesn't mean he has a "bright future."

But then, it all comes back to your tendency to overrate your guys, and especially prospects, except for a few whipping boys like Tyler Greene.

I was just going by your statement of going off of what you saw in a Giants game and applying what you saw from that single game as some sort of evidence as to what kind of talent he has. I'm defensive of him particularly because I watched every game of his and his stuff surprised me. I never knew what kind of fastball he had. When I saw him touching 96-97 I was like "whoa, where did this kid come from". Pitchers who can top 96-97 have a future in the league, whether they are a starter or bullpen guy. Most of his starts were also quality starts, which is all you can really ask for a guy that got called up from the minors that isn't projected to be an Ace. His performance has showed me that he won't get rattled easily. I like the mental aspect he brings to the table. No, he's not going to be an ace. However if he's the Cardinals 4th or 5th starter in the future, they certainly have something there with him.

It's not just me "overrrating" prospects. The national guys love some of the arms and bats we have in the system. I'm sorry if I'm excited that the Cardinals have some very high top rated prospects. I'm sorry if I'm excited and can't wait for Oscar Taveras to make an impact on the major league level or a Carlos Martinez to make an impact. It's not like anyone here has ever overrated their prospects before either (see Homer Bailey and Drew Stubbs).

PuffyPig
08-16-2012, 06:53 PM
It's not just me "overrrating" prospects. The national guys love some of the arms and bats we have in the system. I'm sorry if I'm excited that the Cardinals have some very high top rated prospects. I'm sorry if I'm excited and can't wait for Oscar Taveras to make an impact on the major league level or a Carlos Martinez to make an impact. It's not like anyone here has ever overrated their prospects before either (see Homer Bailey and Drew Stubbs).


I don't think anyone takes exception of your comments relating to obvious hi-end prospects like Taveras.

But when you get super excited, IIRC, about guys like "Mr. Close-and-Late", aka Dirty Dan Descalso, you may understand where some are coming from.

MikeThierry
08-16-2012, 06:56 PM
I don't think anyone takes exception of your comments relating to obvious hi-end prospects like Taveras.

But when you get super excited, IIRC, about guys like "Mr. Close-and-Late", aka Dirty Dan Descalso, you may understand where some are coming from.

Descalso was more of a suprise to me than anything. Nobody is saying he's going to have Brandon Phillips or Chase Utley like talent in the future. Just a nice suprise as all.

Now when it comes to Taveras, I have a man crush on the dude, lol.

PuffyPig
08-19-2012, 08:41 PM
Browning has been decent for the Cardinals since his call up. This is a situation where the 4.24 can be a bit misleading. I'm looking at the game logs and he does well when brought in specifically to get out lefties. He tends to give up more runs when left out there for an inning or more. Lefties are only hitting .156 off of him with a .515 OPS.

FWIW, Browning has lost 3 of the last 5 Card's loses, with hits by LH batters.

I assume after the game tonight that Browning will be sent down and Rosenthal brought back.

It's possible that Browning may never surface for the Cards again.

MikeThierry
08-20-2012, 11:07 AM
FWIW, Browning has lost 3 of the last 5 Card's loses, with hits by LH batters.

I assume after the game tonight that Browning will be sent down and Rosenthal brought back.

It's possible that Browning may never surface for the Cards again.

I sure hope not. He was good for a while but recently he's been batting practice. Even though it was a tough loss yesterday, there were some things in there that I liked. Garcia was dominant. His pitches looked sharp and didn't have a case of "room service didn't come on time so I can't focus". Kelly did very well out of the pen. Jay continues to give the Cardinals brilliant defense in center.

This still remains one of the most mysterious teams I have seen in a long time. They have arguably the best offense in baseball, are decent on defense, and their starting pitching has been excellent most of the year yet continue to look like a mediocre team when you look at their record. Their record in one run games is absolutely horrible right now. They just can't seem to get clicking on all levels at the same time.