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The Rage
08-16-2012, 10:39 PM
He doesn't have the stamina for the starting rotation. He is worn out. He was gassed after 50 pitches tonight and you could see it in his delivery.

The Reds won't need anything special from a 5th starter either. Use Lecure,Simon,Chapman(though I doubt this one with his role) whatever when they need a 5th starter.

Move Bailey to the pen and allow him to throw full max within short bursts. I have a feeling that 'warming up' issue will fade away when 97mph heaters are blasting in.

dubc47834
08-16-2012, 11:00 PM
LOL....too funny!!!!!

smixsell
08-16-2012, 11:13 PM
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt???????????????
:confused:

Jefferson24
08-17-2012, 12:44 AM
He has 10 wins and has pitched decent. He is a 4/5 starter, you cant ask for much more out of a 4/5.

HometownHero
08-17-2012, 12:46 AM
He's been terrible the last 4 starts but we have nothing better than what he can do if he gets back on a uptick. We just need one of those 3 guys to step up and get it going enough to earn the #3 starter role for playoffs.

Jefferson24
08-17-2012, 12:58 AM
He's been terrible the last 4 starts but we have nothing better than what he can do if he gets back on a uptick. We just need one of those 3 guys to step up and get it going enough to earn the #3 starter role for playoffs.

if we make the playoffs and need 3 starters, it will be Bronson pitching the 3rd game.

ervinsm84
08-17-2012, 01:02 AM
uh no.

HometownHero
08-17-2012, 01:05 AM
if we make the playoffs and need 3 starters, it will be Bronson pitching the 3rd game.

That gives me less hope, if its a road game they will go with Bailey he's been great on the road just can't keep the ball in the park at home.

WDE
08-17-2012, 01:12 AM
This just shows you how spoiled we are with our starting pitching this year. He hasn't pitched too bad, but compared to Cueto and Latos he has stunk, and that's ok. He doesn't have to be great. But giving us an occasional great start, usually giving us ok/good starts, and giving us an occasional bad start is alright with me.

HometownHero
08-17-2012, 01:24 AM
This just shows you how spoiled we are with our starting pitching this year. He hasn't pitched too bad, but compared to Cueto and Latos he has stunk, and that's ok. He doesn't have to be great. But giving us an occasional great start, usually giving us ok/good starts, and giving us an occasional bad start is alright with me.

He's been horrid at home but great on the road.

The Rage
08-17-2012, 01:35 AM
35 hits in like 16 innings is replacement level bad. Something has been wrong with him for awhile and I think we know what it is: fatigue.

No Reds starter has had 4 starts in a row that bad. Even Leake earlier this year.

So he can't make it starting, he may be able to make it in the bullpen.

Krawhitham
08-17-2012, 01:42 AM
He doesn't have the stamina for the starting rotation. He is worn out. He was gassed after 50 pitches tonight and you could see it in his delivery.

The Reds won't need anything special from a 5th starter either. Use Lecure,Simon,Chapman(though I doubt this one with his role) whatever when they need a 5th starter.

Move Bailey to the pen and allow him to throw full max within short bursts. I have a feeling that 'warming up' issue will fade away when 97mph heaters are blasting in.


He takes forever to warmup, 4-5 times longer than a normal relief guy. By the time he is warmed up the need for him will have passed

and yes he was gassed after 50 pitches, He has never pitched this many innings before, last year he has 132 but he also had a month long break in the middle of the season because he was hurt

They need to rest him a couple starts, hell they need to rest them all a couple starts. They are all on pace for 200 innings and only Arroyo has pitched 200 innings before in his career. By the time the playoffs start all our starters will be running on nothing but fumes

EMAW
08-17-2012, 01:56 AM
Let him work things out the rest of the way, when the playoffs start if he's hot he is in the mix, if not bullpen

Jr's Boy
08-17-2012, 02:34 AM
It's like Jekyll and Hyde with this guy.His start in L.A. was one of the finest outings from a starter you will ever see.Then he comes home and gets hammered more often than not.

Maker_84
08-17-2012, 03:12 AM
He just doesn't pitch well at GABP

chuck6660
08-17-2012, 03:41 AM
He just doesn't pitch well at GABP

Too bad half his starts are at GABP. :(

dwyerbrg
08-17-2012, 09:22 AM
He takes forever to warmup, 4-5 times longer than a normal relief guy. By the time he is warmed up the need for him will have passed

and yes he was gassed after 50 pitches, He has never pitched this many innings before, last year he has 132 but he also had a month long break in the middle of the season because he was hurt

They need to rest him a couple starts, hell they need to rest them all a couple starts. They are all on pace for 200 innings and only Arroyo has pitched 200 innings before in his career. By the time the playoffs start all our starters will be running on nothing but fumes

He pitched 203 innings between AAA & ML in 2009, so he has pitched this many before. He pitched 162 innings last season between AAA & ML, so the excuse of not having pitched this many innings before is weak, IMO.

jback76
08-17-2012, 09:33 AM
I'm a Homer Bailey fan but I'm starting to think another home park other then GABP would be in Homer's and the Reds best interest. I'm hoping he has plenty of starts on the road the rest of the way, beefs up his stats and we can get something good for him in the off season.

webbbj
08-17-2012, 10:34 AM
I think there is something wrong with homer as well.

Yes he struggles at home but he did come off 2 back to back great starts at home against 2 good offensive clubs (MIL and STL) then another great start on the road in HOU(but a notorious hiters park).

He has been beaten up by not the greatest clubs either: SD, CHC(road), NYM, PIT(good but a weak offense).

I think it could be fatigue. Im not one to panic, if his health and arm strength are fine I would just see what happens next start. If it goes bad again maybe try resting him, skip a start, or delay a start.

I dont think its time to put him in the bullpen tho. Hes only at 147 IP.

'69 & Vine
08-17-2012, 10:54 AM
He is a number 4/5 and has those numbers, I'm OK with that.

Without putting to much stock in it, Homer's gritty performance against the Cardinals at GABP was one of the best performances by a SP this year.

Red in Atl
08-17-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm a Homer Bailey fan but I'm starting to think another home park other then GABP would be in Homer's and the Reds best interest. I'm hoping he has plenty of starts on the road the rest of the way, beefs up his stats and we can get something good for him in the off season.

Exactly. Plus he's going to get expensive soon. Trade him while his value is high. I know we can use some serious help in the minors. Just look at the records. The only way we can compete is developing talent.

Time to get Bailey out of here come November.

Send him to Houston. They've been stocking up on youngsters, and next year will be heading to the AL. They will need a few decent starters with some experience. Bailey goes home and won't come back to haunt us. Chapman goes into the SR and we have plenty of options for closer.

Trajinous
08-17-2012, 12:34 PM
*sigh*

Why are Reds fans being so bi-polar lately? Leake has a bad start, SEND HIM DOWN! Bailey is average in a couple starts, HE'S USELESS! SEND HIM TO THE PEN! Rolen has an awful first half, GIVE HIM HIS GOLD WATCH! Chapman blows a few saves, SEND HIM BACK TO CUBA!

I'm getting tired of these knee jerk reactions. Reds have the second-best record in the league, the entire league.

Sir Luke
08-17-2012, 01:07 PM
You have to be a first class moron to think Homer needs to go to the bullpen.
First of all, he is having a good season. He had one bad game and you want to throw him under the bus. I bet when Votto goes 0-4 you want to send him back to single A ball. He has the second most win on the team and third most strike outs.
Second of all, if your argument wasn't completely stupid to begin with, who are you going to put in the rotation... Don't say Chapman. We NEED him where he is for now. Marshall proved himself to not be a closer and Ondrusek isn't a closer at this point.

webbbj
08-17-2012, 01:38 PM
*sigh*

Why are Reds fans being so bi-polar lately? Leake has a bad start, SEND HIM DOWN! Bailey is average in a couple starts, HE'S USELESS! SEND HIM TO THE PEN! Rolen has an awful first half, GIVE HIM HIS GOLD WATCH! Chapman blows a few saves, SEND HIM BACK TO CUBA!

I'm getting tired of these knee jerk reactions. Reds have the second-best record in the league, the entire league.

to be fair Homer has been well below average his last 4 starts. I agree that this is a knee jerk reaction forum and agree all the other cases you mentioned were over blown. But it does have to be a little concerning after 4straight bad starts.

I would like to see one more start before panicking having said that. If he struggles 5 straight starts you gotta think he may need rest or something.

But yeah bullpen is out of the question at this point

WDE
08-17-2012, 01:39 PM
Our fans just cannot enjoy the great season we are having. "We might be having a good season, but we are going to die out in the playoffs" No we are not! We have a great offense, great starting pitching, and a great bullpen. What more do Reds fans want? "Wow, we only scored 1 run today, we are doomed for the rest of the season" No we are not! We can't expect 5-8 runs every game! That's baseball! Geez. And then there are people calling our players terrible and bums. Let me tell you something; Jay Bruce does not "suck." It's called a slump. He is a good player and an All-Star. Anybody saying Jay Bruce or Homer Bailey or Mike Leake sucks is being ridiculous. I will admit, Miguel Cairo is struggling a little, but it gets old when people keep saying "his time is up." Who is better in the minor leagues right now ready to be called up? People need to calm down and enjoy this great season we are having.

DocRed
08-17-2012, 01:42 PM
I still prefer Bailey to Leake.

Who Dey Time
08-17-2012, 01:50 PM
*sigh*

Why are Reds fans being so bi-polar lately? Leake has a bad start, SEND HIM DOWN! Bailey is average in a couple starts, HE'S USELESS! SEND HIM TO THE PEN! Rolen has an awful first half, GIVE HIM HIS GOLD WATCH! Chapman blows a few saves, SEND HIM BACK TO CUBA!

I'm getting tired of these knee jerk reactions. Reds have the second-best record in the league, the entire league.

Any premise presented to Sundeck by The Rage re Homer Bailey is to be ignored. This is about the 3rd or 4th thread he has started this season that deals with removing Bailey from the rotation due to performance, alleged fatigue, etc. I'll give him credit for his persistence, though, in the wake of all factual evidence being contrary to his premise.

fielder's choice
08-17-2012, 04:04 PM
We have a great offense

I am on board with what you're saying, but this is a big old FALSE.

Trajinous
08-17-2012, 04:11 PM
to be fair Homer has been well below average his last 4 starts. I agree that this is a knee jerk reaction forum and agree all the other cases you mentioned were over blown. But it does have to be a little concerning after 4straight bad starts.

I would like to see one more start before panicking having said that. If he struggles 5 straight starts you gotta think he may need rest or something.

But yeah bullpen is out of the question at this point

I'd rather Bailey have some rough outings now than in late September/October. Another point, who would replace Bailey? There's no one in AAA that could match Bailey so I'll go let him pitch and hopefully learn from bad outings.

The Rage
08-17-2012, 04:23 PM
I'd rather Bailey have some rough outings now than in late September/October. Another point, who would replace Bailey? There's no one in AAA that could match Bailey so I'll go let him pitch and hopefully learn from bad outings.

Rough outings? They are just terrible outings with no life and no improvement in sight. The guy is gassed. Might as well throw his best fastball in the pen.

Bailey just doesn't have the frame to start. He is to thin structured. I think his future is as a high leverage bullpen arm...........Chapman/Bailey backend 2013?

webbbj
08-17-2012, 05:00 PM
I'd rather Bailey have some rough outings now than in late September/October. Another point, who would replace Bailey? There's no one in AAA that could match Bailey so I'll go let him pitch and hopefully learn from bad outings.

Well I would too. Im not sure what to expect either way from the guy. Maybe it is just a rough stretch and he will be back in full force the rest of the season. But the last 4 have been really bad and he hasnt pitched for a stretch like that all season.

Im not saying replace the guy. But who knows maybe he needs a delayed start or to skip a start. Maybe theres nothing wrong at all and he pitches really good again.

But only Homer can know that. I just know Im not sure what Homer to expect next start. Before his recent slump I do know I expected great starts.

Hopefully he turns around back to what I think is his normal form.

jback76
08-17-2012, 07:36 PM
WDE, I agree with many things you have to say but the Reds don't have a great offense.

Trajinous
08-17-2012, 07:57 PM
WDE, I agree with many things you have to say but the Reds don't have a great offense.

It's inconsistent. That lands them right in the middle of the league. They'll go on streaks of brilliance where they are the Red Machine-incarnate then they look like the a AAA team trying to hit Randy Johnson for a few games.

The emergence of Frazier, I think will solidify the offense from now on. It was ridiculous he didn't make the roster from the get-go but since he's been here the Reds have scored more consistently.

The_Mudshark
08-20-2012, 01:18 PM
Jesus...

I don't know what is sillier... Saying Homer needs to go to the 'pen - or accusing people who want to discuss the rotation of being people who just refuse to enjoy a winning ball club.

This is a forum for Reds' baseball discussion, just because someone is not 100% happy with the team does not make them trollers or people who just want to complain all the time. Since brm7675 has left, I haven't seen nearly the amount of complaining just for the sake of complaining.

Trade Homer, he does not belong as a long reliever...

And smile, the Reds are consistently winning. :D

Larkin88
08-20-2012, 02:12 PM
Bailey just doesn't have the frame to start. He is to thin structured. I think his future is as a high leverage bullpen arm...........Chapman/Bailey backend 2013?

Because you say Bailey is a fit for the bullpen means absolutely nothing. He is not. His warmup time is well documented, as others in this very thread have pointed out. Maybe he doesn't have a future in the Reds rotation, but if that is the case, he will be moved to another team's rotation. Homer Bailey is not a bullpen candidate. Not here, not there, not anywhere. He is a poor fit for what you insist is an obviously good move. It is anything but the case.

The good news? He represents value in a trade, even if others on this board don't project it.

texasdave
08-20-2012, 03:40 PM
I am not completely convinced that Homer Bailey cannot relieve, cannot become a valuable member of the bullpen. What I do know is that it has been stated many times on messages boards that he takes too long to get warmed up. But maybe, just maybe, that is one of the urban myths that has taken on a life of its own to the point that people just assume it is true. As previously mentioned, I have seen many regular Joes state that as a fact; but I have never seen a link posted alongside that backs that assertion up. Not saying it isn't true. But if it is so well-documented can someone post a link please? A link that quotes Dusty Baker or Bryan Price or someone else from the Reds' organization? I did find this curious, and very recent, quote from Dusty Baker on Homer Bailey.
It is mid-August and Bailey is at 141 1/3 innings, so Baker was asked if that concerned him.
"You are worried about it, always worried about it,” said Baker. “But you hope he has gotten over the hurdle. And he is feeling good. He has learned how to warm up and how to take care of his arm. It states that Bailey has learned how to warm up. I am not sure how much can be read into that. Does it mean that everyone was correct and Bailey used to take too long to warm up? But now he doesn't? It is not entirely clear what that quote means. It seems a little odd that for someone who cannot relieve that his only relief appearance came in a must-win game three of the playoffs. Not really a game where you expect to see someone that cannot relieve to be sent it to do just that. And he entered the game in a tight must-win situation, and not some mop-up role. Small sample size and all, but he did pitch very well, tossing two scoreless frames. Once again, maybe he can't relieve. I would even agree that sticking him in the bullpen, if limited to a long reliever, is probably an under-utilization of his talents. I just do not know if the blanket statement that Homer Bailey cannot be a reliever can be stated as cold, hard fact.

LINKAGE TO BAKER QUOTE: http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

webbbj
08-20-2012, 03:44 PM
i am a little concerned about Baileys last 4 starts but lets not get carried away he is no where near headed for the BP.

Larkin88
08-20-2012, 04:39 PM
I am not completely convinced that Homer Bailey cannot relieve, cannot become a valuable member of the bullpen. What I do know is that it has been stated many times on messages boards that he takes too long to get warmed up. But maybe, just maybe, that is one of the urban myths that has taken on a life of its own to the point that people just assume it is true.

You raise valid points in regards to how he might have developed since coming up, but at least in the onset, "slow to warm" was part of the scouting book on Bailey even coming out of the minors. I will admit that I started seeing that comment used more anecdotally after the Reds tried and failed to rehab him in the bullpen in 2010. But there was evidence (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101006&content_id=15446368&notebook_id=15446496&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin#15446498) that might have supported it becoming so widely accepted (and a Dusty Baker quote for you):


Reds manager Dusty Baker said that Wood can warm up quicker than Bailey, which could be a concern if the Phillies start a big rally.

"Sometimes things happen so quickly that you can't get guys loose quick enough," Baker said. "Everybody will say, 'Get him outta there,' but the guy might have thrown five pitches in the bullpen. You've seen sometimes where five, six pitches could be three or four runs. Things happen very quickly."

While hardly dogmatic, I know John Fay referenced it as an issue (http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120323/SPT04/303230143/Reds-mailbag-Bailey-pen-) this year when Bailey and Chapman were still jockeying for a rotation spot before Madson's injury.

If you close him or set him up in the eighth or ninth inning and deign one of those "his innings", you mitigate the unknown risk of whether he needs to get up and ready in a hurry, though I suppose. I'm not sure where he is now, but I do think there's some merit to the "slow to warm" descriptor that has always followed him around. So I don't take issue with people saying that about him anymore than I do people saying Joey Votto can't play second base, which I'm sure isn't a cold, hard fact either in a literal sense.

texasdave
08-20-2012, 06:21 PM
If people inferred from the Dusty Baker quote above that Homer Bailey was not fit for bullpen duty, they inferred incorrectly. Saying Woods warms up faster does not necessarily logically lead to Bailey not being able to warm up fast enough. The bullpen is an amalgamation of different roles. Every pitcher in the bullpen cannot fulfill every one of them. Even if it is true that Homer is not able to get up in the middle of an inning and get ready, that does not mean he cannot be a valuable contributor to the overall success of a bullpen.
One would think that the fact that Dusty turned to Homer just a couple days later out of the pen in a must-win game is pretty strong anecdotal evidence that Dusty feels Homer can be a useful bullpen contributor.
Add to that the fact of the very recent Baker quote where he notes that Homer has now learned how to warm up might lead one to believe that even if a problem existed in 2010, it no longer does.
Once again, I am not advocating a move of Bailey to the pen. I am just not dismissing it out of hand as it seems others have in this thread.

The Rage
08-20-2012, 07:09 PM
Bailey can absolutely go into the pen. The "warming up" excuse was because the Reds still hoped in his future as a starter. But with a questionable pitching frame, he may not be able to hold up over the course of a season starting. The last couple weeks have hinted at this pretty bad. His legs look shot and he already gave up trying to throw 97mph to save his arm.

At some point, you have to try plan B. Lets see what he can do in short spurts and only 75 innings rather than 175+. Chapman frankly, has the same questions. He looked to be wearing down some in 2010 before the transfer was made.

smixsell
08-20-2012, 07:42 PM
NEWS FLASH!

1) We have the second best record in the league despite our offense being poor for large stretches of the season.

2)We have accomplished this feat with an undisturbed five man rotation of Cueto, Latos, Arroyo, Bailey and Leake and a very good bullpen.

3) We have no-one who could reasonably be expected to do even close to as well as Bailey has done (even recently) available to slot in to his spot in the rotation to replace him.

4) You have to be some kind of NUT to advocate changing that starting rotation in light of points 1-3 above, simply because one them has had a few lacklustre starts in a row

The Rage
08-20-2012, 07:46 PM
NEWS FLASH!

1) We have the second best record in the league despite our offense being poor for large stretches of the season.

2)We have accomplished this feat with an undisturbed five man rotation of Cueto, Latos, Arroyo, Bailey and Leake and a very good bullpen.

3) We have no-one who could reasonably be expected to do even close to as well as Bailey has done (even recently) available to slot in to his spot in the rotation to replace him.

4) You have to be some kind of NUT to advocate changing that starting rotation in light of points 1-3 above, simply because one them has had a few lacklustre starts in a row

A few lackluster starts? Mike Leake and Mat Latos......ok. They have had periods of a few lackluster starts. Bailey has been so bad his last 4 starts, he doesn't deserve just by the numbers, to start anymore. I think his legs are shot and he can't get as tall as needed during scaploading, at least looking at his tape. He started the Padres and Mets starts on fire and looked gassed by the 4th inning. Bad, bad sign. Starters can't tucker out.

jback76
08-20-2012, 07:51 PM
Agree with smixsell, we all witnessed what the Reds considered the next best option Redmond. Bailey looks pretty good next to that.

Larkin88
08-20-2012, 09:00 PM
If people inferred from the Dusty Baker quote above that Homer Bailey was not fit for bullpen duty, they inferred incorrectly. Saying Woods warms up faster does not necessarily logically lead to Bailey not being able to warm up fast enough. The bullpen is an amalgamation of different roles. Every pitcher in the bullpen cannot fulfill every one of them. Even if it is true that Homer is not able to get up in the middle of an inning and get ready, that does not mean he cannot be a valuable contributor to the overall success of a bullpen.

Hey, you got me dave. I was maybe a little harsh in reply to The Rage initially, but I already conceded that I don't know where he is on his warm-up now and that there were bullpen roles I suppose he actually could do alright in. Ones where warm-up needs are less predictable. (Also ones that I don't think really exist on this team, though I know that wasn't your point)


One would think that the fact that Dusty turned to Homer just a couple days later out of the pen in a must-win game is pretty strong anecdotal evidence that Dusty feels Homer can be a useful bullpen contributor.

While this is true, it's also because Bailey was in that playoff pen to begin with. And while I guess it's also true that his presence there itself might somehow indicate he's a bullpen fit, I think it's more indicative of him being a fine pitcher who was ill-equipped for the starting rotation in a short series. (As is often the case with lower-rotation starters in their respective playoff pens)

As you've pointed out elsewhere, though, he didn't pitch poorly there by any means, which might be more anecdotal evidence than anything.

That said, I will contend that the Wood article does at least sort of speak to the warm-up trend that I've always heard and associated with Bailey, hype or not. I realize it doesn't explicitly say that he can't physically pitch out of the pen or something like that... But taken in the context of the article being about a playoff bullpen being set, Dusty's quote does explain where being slow to warm up is a concern for bullpen arms. It just so happens he's talking about it as it relates to Bailey... so I don't think it's totally without inference to at least mention it. Especially in context of comments from the likes of John Fay and Hal McCoy, as recently as this season.

You could well be right in that it's some urban legend that has precipitated blogs and message boards for the last few years. Maybe that's what's shaping my perception. I think insofar as I've heard it, and as many times as I've heard it, there might a bit of fire to this smoke. Maybe he turned a corner with it... as far as Dusty verbatims to the fold, my Google-foo's got nothing on that quote you posted.

All that said, with respect to the topic of this thread (and not directed at you texasdave), I think it's still a silly proposition. Even if the warm-up thing is only a potential concern if one at all, his value as a starter far outweighs what he'd bring to the pen. And if not in the Cincinnati rotation long-term because of the home-road split concerns, definitely in a trade with another team. I'm not advocating moving Homer yet, though.

The Rage
08-20-2012, 09:05 PM
Hey, you got me dave. I was maybe a little harsh in reply to The Rage initially, but I already conceded that I don't know where he is on his warm-up now and that there were bullpen roles I suppose he actually could do alright in. Ones where warm-up needs are less predictable. (Also ones that I don't think really exist on this team, though I know that wasn't your point)



While this is true, it's also because Bailey was in that playoff pen to begin with. And while I guess it's also true that his presence there itself might somehow indicate he's a bullpen fit, I think it's more indicative of him being a fine pitcher who was ill-equipped for the starting rotation in a short series. (As is often the case with lower-rotation starters in their respective playoff pens)

As you've pointed out elsewhere, though, he didn't pitch poorly there by any means, which might be more anecdotal evidence than anything.

That said, I will contend that the Wood article does at least sort of speak to the warm-up trend that I've always heard and associated with Bailey, hype or not. I realize it doesn't explicitly say that he can't physically pitch out of the pen or something like that... But taken in the context of the article being about a playoff bullpen being set, Dusty's quote does explain where being slow to warm up is a concern for bullpen arms. It just so happens he's talking about it as it relates to Bailey... so I don't think it's totally without inference to at least mention it. Especially in context of comments from the likes of John Fay and Hal McCoy, as recently as this season.

You could well be right in that it's some urban legend that has precipitated blogs and message boards for the last few years. Maybe that's what's shaping my perception. I think insofar as I've heard it, and as many times as I've heard it, there might a bit of fire to this smoke. Maybe he turned a corner with it... as far as Dusty verbatims to the fold, my Google-foo's got nothing on that quote you posted.

All that said, with respect to the topic of this thread (and not directed at you texasdave), I think it's still a silly proposition. Even if the warm-up thing is only a potential concern if one at all, his value as a starter far outweighs what he'd bring to the pen. And if not in the Cincinnati rotation long-term because of the home-road split concerns, definitely in a trade with another team. I'm not advocating moving Homer yet, though.

Bailey threw 96-97mph in the pen during that playoff relief showing. Enough said. He needs to move.

Maker_84
08-20-2012, 09:51 PM
if we could change the name of this thread to Leake i would be all for it

DocRed
08-21-2012, 12:23 AM
if we could change the name of this thread to Leake i would be all for it

Agree 100%, at least Bailey has good stuff.

knuckleballah22
08-21-2012, 10:40 AM
ive always thought bailey would be great in the pen but until we get another good starting pitcher weve got to keep him where he is

m21eagle45
08-21-2012, 11:10 AM
if we could change the name of this thread to Leake i would be all for it

The last 7 starts for Bailey 3-2 with the Reds going 5-2 in those starts. He has pitched 42 2/3 innings with 20 ER 35 K's with an ERA of 4.21

Mike Leakes last 7 starts 2-2 with the team going 4-3 in those starts. He has pitched 40 innings with 28 ER 29 K's and an ERA of 6.30.

Since the all-star break, the numbers would back what you suggest.

smixsell
08-21-2012, 11:39 AM
The last 7 starts for Bailey 3-2 with the Reds going 5-2 in those starts. He has pitched 42 2/3 innings with 20 ER 35 K's with an ERA of 4.21

Mike Leakes last 7 starts 2-2 with the team going 4-3 in those starts. He has pitched 40 innings with 28 ER 29 K's and an ERA of 6.30.

Since the all-star break, the numbers would back what you suggest.

And NEITHER should be moved to the pen for the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

texasdave
08-21-2012, 11:51 AM
And NEITHER should be moved to the pen for the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

Agreed. Unless an injury pops up this team is gonna ride this mini-storm out with the five they have going right now. As it should be.

m21eagle45
08-21-2012, 01:22 PM
And NEITHER should be moved to the pen for the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

I agree totally. I do not think that there will be a change, or should be. I just wanted to point out to those that constantly attack Bailey that he is not our worst pitcher since the All-Star break.

smixsell
08-21-2012, 01:52 PM
I agree totally. I do not think that there will be a change, or should be. I just wanted to point out to those that constantly attack Bailey that he is not our worst pitcher since the All-Star break.

Roger that m21eagle.

smixsell
08-21-2012, 01:58 PM
Pitchers go through bad spells all the time. Even more frequently during the "dog days" of August. While it's theoretically possible that Bailey and Leake are "out of gas" and will be no good from here on out, I sincerely doubt it. Odds are that it's just a bad stretch for each of them, which they need to battle out of. In any event, it's far too early to start thinking about removing Bailey or Leake from the rotation.

Who Dey Time
08-21-2012, 03:34 PM
I agree totally. I do not think that there will be a change, or should be. I just wanted to point out to those that constantly attack Bailey that he is not our worst pitcher since the All-Star break.

In fairness to most Sundeckers, there really has only been one poster who has continually beat this silly Bailey drum. Despite him being proven wrong time and time again he continues to create these brm-like threads. I guarantee we will see another one tonight if Bailey pitches less than perfect.

dubc47834
08-21-2012, 04:26 PM
A few lackluster starts? Mike Leake and Mat Latos......ok. They have had periods of a few lackluster starts. Bailey has been so bad his last 4 starts, he doesn't deserve just by the numbers, to start anymore. I think his legs are shot and he can't get as tall as needed during scaploading, at least looking at his tape. He started the Padres and Mets starts on fire and looked gassed by the 4th inning. Bad, bad sign. Starters can't tucker out.

You talk as if you are a MLB pitching coach, you probably teach little league and throw around all these big words and scare the living crap outa those poor kids!!!!

The Rage
08-21-2012, 05:15 PM
You talk as if you are a MLB pitching coach, you probably teach little league and throw around all these big words and scare the living crap outa those poor kids!!!!

Ah, ok. So some knowlege in pitching should scare people. Listen, anybody with some experience in pitching can tell you what is wrong with a pitcher. With Leake last night, it was the poor finishing. With Bailey it is in his legs, even more than June when he had 3/4 starts that blew, when his finishing sucked. Price and he go into the pen and work it out. But this time, all legs. He simply isn't getting the "leg kick" needed to pitch good. His body is a sec ahead of his arm and it throws things off enough to where the ball drifts over the plate. If he gets 'taller" during scaploading, everything comes together and his body/arm get in line.

Maybe his legs will "snap" out of it and he will have a steller 7-8 starts in a row and take over the 3rd spot in the playoff rotation like the Reds want. I just don't see it.

smixsell
08-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Ah, ok. So some knowlege in pitching should scare people. Listen, anybody with some experience in pitching can tell you what is wrong with a pitcher. With Leake last night, it was the poor finishing. With Bailey it is in his legs, even more than June when he had 3/4 starts that blew, when his finishing sucked. Price and he go into the pen and work it out. But this time, all legs. He simply isn't getting the "leg kick" needed to pitch good. His body is a sec ahead of his arm and it throws things off enough to where the ball drifts over the plate. If he gets 'taller" during scaploading, everything comes together and his body/arm get in line.

Maybe his legs will "snap" out of it and he will have a steller 7-8 starts in a row and take over the 3rd spot in the playoff rotation like the Reds want. I just don't see it.

I'll wager that he does "snap out of it." :)

smixsell
08-22-2012, 03:12 AM
He was fine tonight. :)

Maker_84
08-22-2012, 03:36 AM
He was fine tonight. :)

agreed

HometownHero
08-22-2012, 03:40 AM
Tonight was the his 9th consecutive start on the road won by the Reds

smixsell
09-29-2012, 01:32 PM
I guess Homer got his scap loading problem ironed out Mr. Rage. :p

The Rage
09-29-2012, 04:32 PM
His fastball is still dull, but his mechanics have gotten back on track. You really needed some good luck ala Dodgers.

Looks like his problems were mental fatigue rather than physical in August.

dubc47834
09-29-2012, 09:13 PM
His fastball is still dull, but his mechanics have gotten back on track. You really needed some good luck ala Dodgers.

Looks like his problems were mental fatigue rather than physical in August.

Or maybe he is pitching now instead of just throwing as hard as he can. When Cueto learned to do that he became really good. Now looks like Homer has turned that corner.

The Rage
09-30-2012, 01:56 AM
Or maybe he is pitching now instead of just throwing as hard as he can. When Cueto learned to do that he became really good. Now looks like Homer has turned that corner.

Bailey hasn't been throwing as 'Hard as he can" since 2010. He just has sloppy frontal mechanics and mislocates the ball. Better velocity can make up for that.

Looks like Bailey's fastball peaked in 2006 at 20 years old. I still love the raw stuff then. So nasty and overpowering.