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View Full Version : Dusty to bench Frazier once Votto is healthy



DocRed
08-23-2012, 12:44 PM
...and Rolen will start at third over Frazier. Thought this deserved its own thread...

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/22/todd-frazier-appears-bench-bound-following-joey-vottos-return/

Krawhitham
08-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Frazier been getting more timely hits but Rolen's & Frazier's OPS since the all star break are about the same.

I think the key difference is Frazier is a better 3rd baseman, Rolen's range is non existed this season

Rolen has the worst FPCT (.940) of any position player on the Reds this season.


Unless Rolen signs somewhere to be a back up player next season this is his last season, Seems unfair to cost a man the ROTY award for Rolen swan song

redsfanhere
08-23-2012, 01:26 PM
frazier can play alot of positions so i would expect that they probaly can find time for a guy who possibly could win rookie of the yr.what a pleasant surprise yr this young man has had i still think he could possibly be that left fielder we have been looking for with that power RH bat in the lineup. i'm so excited to be a reds fan these days whatta ride ey.

Stray
08-23-2012, 01:26 PM
Frazier will still get plenty of of starts. It's not like Rolen starts 3 games in a row anymore, and it's not like we're gonna throw Votto directly back into playing every single day for the rest of the year, and then we know Ludwick gets his days off.

If our problem is too many starters then that's a problem I'm willing to live with.

texasdave
08-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Too bad he cannot play center. The Reds definitely need help there.

Biff Pocoroba
08-23-2012, 01:31 PM
Frazier should be starting much more often than not. Period.

Red Buckeye
08-23-2012, 02:17 PM
Frazier should be starting much more often than not. Period.

EXACTLY! It's painfully obvious Frazier is the better player, and it's a real shame Dusty prefers starting Grandpa over the Toddfather.

What is it about Rolen that Dusty likes more than Frazier?

Oh well, at this point with the record the Reds have I guess it's a little silly for us to complain to much.

arkimadee
08-23-2012, 02:33 PM
Rolen and Votto will get regular days off. Why worry about it? We are 27 games over .500 and 8 games in first. Everything works itself out

MrRedLegger
08-23-2012, 02:53 PM
Rolen will play every 2 games and take the getaway off like he has all year, and depending on how many games Ludwick will play in a row before getting rest (I think he's been getting around 3-4 games, this will go down when Votto returns) leaving Frazier to play around 3-4 games a week.

That's not too bad. And you never know when Frazier might get a start at 1st to keep Votto fresh.

Having Rolen, Ludwick, and Frazier and not enough spots to play them all is a good problem to have.

Biff Pocoroba
08-23-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm more thinking about the playoffs. Frazier should not be getting spot starts in October. As it stands right now, he should be in the lineup every single night come playoff time. Rolen could be our first righty bat off the bench.

smixsell
08-23-2012, 04:11 PM
I'm more thinking about the playoffs. Frazier should not be getting spot starts in October. As it stands right now, he should be in the lineup every single night come playoff time. Rolen could be our first righty bat off the bench.

Spot on. Frazier should be in the lineup EVERY game unless HE NEEDS rest. He is better than Rolen BOTH at the plate and at 3B, and by no small margin.

Joesh
08-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Gotta start Scott Rolen since he is the proven veteran. Statistics don't matter.

smixsell
08-23-2012, 07:40 PM
Gotta start Scott Rolen since he is the proven veteran. Statistics don't matter.

I didn't know you were on the Sun Deck Dusty! :)

OGB
08-23-2012, 08:46 PM
Frazier been getting more timely hits but Rolen's & Frazier's OPS since the all star break are about the same.

I think the key difference is Frazier is a better 3rd baseman, Rolen's range is non existed this season

Rolen has the worst FPCT (.940) of any position player on the Reds this season.


Unless Rolen signs somewhere to be a back up player next season this is his last season, Seems unfair to cost a man the ROTY award for Rolen swan song

I agree that he should be starting, but he might to get his avg north of .300 and keep his HR and RBI numbers at their post ASG rate if he wants a chance to take that award from Miley. He's a legit Cy Young candidate and it's his to lose right now.

AintlifeGrande
08-23-2012, 08:51 PM
With Rolens back issues,he may wind up on the shelf again.Regardless,both will get equal playing time.

New York Red
08-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Rolen and Votto will get regular days off. Why worry about it? We are 27 games over .500 and 8 games in first. Everything works itself out
It's way too early to be that content. A lot can change -- and very quickly.

mu4103
08-25-2012, 10:24 PM
It's way too early to be that content. A lot can change -- and very quickly.
Frazier is the Red's second best hitter. Dusty is the only manager who could blow this lead. Dusty sucks, end of story.

R_Webb18
08-25-2012, 10:33 PM
Frazier is the Red's second best hitter. Dusty is the only manager who could blow this lead. Dusty sucks, end of story.

disagree

mu4103
08-25-2012, 11:47 PM
disagree

Based on what:

Rolen: .251, 6 HR, 33 RBI, 20 R, 1 SB, OPS .733
Frazier: .296, 18 HR, 60 RBI, 47 R, 3 SB, OPS .917

What is so hard to figure out. How would you feel if at your job if you were twice as efficient as the other guy, but he got the raise because the boss liked him better (I really can't say why Dusty does the things he does so I won't try.)

Bottom Line:
19 years of managing = 1 NL pennant

Ironman92
08-26-2012, 12:27 AM
Based on what:

Rolen: .251, 6 HR, 33 RBI, 20 R, 1 SB, OPS .733
Frazier: .296, 18 HR, 60 RBI, 47 R, 3 SB, OPS .917

What is so hard to figure out. How would you feel if at your job if you were twice as efficient as the other guy, but he got the raise because the boss liked him better (I really can't say why Dusty does the things he does so I won't try.)

Bottom Line:
19 years of managing = 1 NL pennant

The stolen bases are the clincher.

Captain13
08-26-2012, 12:54 AM
Over the last three weeks Scott Rolen is batting .342 with an OPS of .942. That ain't too shabby. Over the same period Todd Frazier is batting .298/.858, also nothing to laugh about. This may be a situation that Dusty has no wrong choice.

mu4103
08-26-2012, 01:18 AM
Over the last three weeks Scott Rolen is batting .342 with an OPS of .942. That ain't too shabby. Over the same period Todd Frazier is batting .298/.858, also nothing to laugh about. This may be a situation that Dusty has no wrong choice.

You can't judge a player by 20 games when he has really sucked the rest of the season.

Here is the thing that Reds fans are forgetting. People keep pointing out how good Dusty Baker is managing this year because they have basically the same team as last year.

Only that is the thing they do pretty much have the same team as last year including Dusty Baker. What is the difference???
Major changes:
1. Ludwick has outplayed Jonny Gomes (but he did suck for half the year)
2. The real difference is TODD FRAZIER!

Now let's go back to the way things used to be???

(I bet Mike Trout is glad he is not a Red. It would suck to have to back up Drew Stubbs :) )

Captain13
08-26-2012, 01:26 AM
You can't judge a player by 20 games when he has really sucked the rest of the season.

)

Don't forget, a good part of that Rolen was injured. I understand there is a good chance that will happen again and then Dusty will have to play Frazier.

texasdave
08-26-2012, 01:32 AM
You can't judge a player by 20 games when he has really sucked the rest of the season.

Here is the thing that Reds fans are forgetting. People keep pointing out how good Dusty Baker is managing this year because they have basically the same team as last year.

Only that is the thing they do pretty much have the same team as last year including Dusty Baker. What is the difference???
Major changes:
1. Ludwick has outplayed Jonny Gomes (but he did suck for half the year)
2. The real difference is TODD FRAZIER!

Now let's go back to the way things used to be???

(I bet Mike Trout is glad he is not a Red. It would suck to have to back up Drew Stubbs :) )

They are pitching just a wee bit better. :)

R_Webb18
08-26-2012, 01:40 AM
Based on what:

Rolen: .251, 6 HR, 33 RBI, 20 R, 1 SB, OPS .733
Frazier: .296, 18 HR, 60 RBI, 47 R, 3 SB, OPS .917

What is so hard to figure out. How would you feel if at your job if you were twice as efficient as the other guy, but he got the raise because the boss liked him better (I really can't say why Dusty does the things he does so I won't try.)

Bottom Line:
19 years of managing = 1 NL pennant

i just meant i don't think he's the 2nd best hitter. but between him and rolen i agree

Jefferson24
08-26-2012, 01:47 AM
Dusty, bottom line, knows it is time to win now, it is a contract year. If he marries himself to Rolen and it backfires, it reflects on him. I think he and everyone else knows what the right answer is, he will have to play Frazier.

scott91575
08-26-2012, 06:35 AM
I actually don't have a problem with Frazier at 3rd twice a week (end of every series), once a week in LF, and then once a week at first or RF (preferably against LH pitcher). The rest of the year the Reds only play 6 games a week. That is 4 games out of 6. That keeps Rolen, Ludwick, Bruce, and Votto fresh while giving Frazier plenty of playing time. It also keeps Cairo on the bench.

improbus
08-26-2012, 08:19 AM
They are pitching just a wee bit better. :)

Let's not kid ourselves. The Reds have the best ERA+ in the NL (which is ERA that is adjusted for ballpark factors.) That is why we have the record we do.

As for playing Frazier, I get the feeling he will find his way onto the field in some way in big games.

jback76
08-26-2012, 10:07 AM
I actually don't have a problem with Frazier at 3rd twice a week (end of every series), once a week in LF, and then once a week at first or RF (preferably against LH pitcher). The rest of the year the Reds only play 6 games a week. That is 4 games out of 6. That keeps Rolen, Ludwick, Bruce, and Votto fresh while giving Frazier plenty of playing time. It also keeps Cairo on the bench.

You've hit on probably the most important thing in all of this. Frazier will get his 4 starts a week and it will keep Cairo out of the starting lineup. I'd rather have the problem of resting those players without having to use Cairo to do it. As much as I'd like for Frazier to win ROY I'd rather win. And any lineup without Miggy in it should help the Reds chances.

DirtyBaker
08-26-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm uncomfortable with a Ludwick/Bruce/Frazier OF on a regular basis. The Stubbs problem probably would be less pronounced with him batting 7th or 8th.

Once Votto gets back, Frazier playing 2-3 games a week at 3rd and 1-2 games a week at LF is as good as it's going to get if Dusty has named Rolen the starter at 3rd.

The clear choice is to use Rolen as a PH for the remainder of the year, I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.

IamRV
08-26-2012, 12:04 PM
You've hit on probably the most important thing in all of this. Frazier will get his 4 starts a week and it will keep Cairo out of the starting lineup. I'd rather have the problem of resting those players without having to use Cairo to do it. As much as I'd like for Frazier to win ROY I'd rather win. And any lineup without Miggy in it should help the Reds chances.

You guys are using logic and basing that on what 'should' happen. I, OTOH, have no such illusions that 'our manager' will follow such logic. When has he ever?

The DARK
08-26-2012, 12:56 PM
I'm curious, is there a good reason to put Frazier in RF and keep Ludwick in LF instead of the other way around? Ludwick has played RF for the majority of his career and Frazier has lots of experience playing an adequate LF.

I think our ideal starting lineup headed into the playoffs is this:

2B Phillips
SS Cozart
1B Votto
RF Ludwick
LF Frazier
CF Bruce
3B Rolen
C Hanigan

Ironman92
08-26-2012, 01:24 PM
You can't judge a player by 20 games when he has really sucked the rest of the season.

Here is the thing that Reds fans are forgetting. People keep pointing out how good Dusty Baker is managing this year because they have basically the same team as last year.

Only that is the thing they do pretty much have the same team as last year including Dusty Baker. What is the difference???
Major changes:
1. Ludwick has outplayed Jonny Gomes (but he did suck for half the year)
2. The real difference is TODD FRAZIER!

Now let's go back to the way things used to be???

(I bet Mike Trout is glad he is not a Red. It would suck to have to back up Drew Stubbs :) )

One thing is funny about that.....Dusty plays Stubbs like he is Mike Trout. Stubbs has the same skill set (minus the contact hitting) as Trout....but he's played 500 games, is almost 28 and still where he was at 25....if anything worse....Trout is like 12 and needed 40 games last year to wet his feet. Stubbs does well when he fears for his job (a positive that he can do that). Stubbs will do better with competition....he knows he can go 2-21 and he has no worries of his position. Play him only against lefties for a bit. Heisey has zero failures in CF with numerous highlights and is at least as good in the lineup.

But I know I'm just being silly.