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View Full Version : Mesoraco optioned to Louisville



fearofpopvol1
08-23-2012, 04:57 PM
to make room for JJ Hoover. :eek:

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/08/23/mesoraco-optioned/

Plus Plus
08-23-2012, 04:58 PM
#Reds announce Mesoraco reinstated, optioned to Louisville. JJ Hoover recalled

RedsMan3203
08-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Thoughts?

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Wow. That's a bit of a shocker.

mattfeet
08-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Whoa. Did NOT see that one coming.

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Not like we're losing anything offensively, but I'm terrified of Navarro catching any meaningful innings behind the plate.

Plus Plus
08-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Mesoraco had 22 ABs this month. I think that getting him regular ABs might help him get back into the swing of things offensively. Besides, it's a virtual lock that he is up in about a week once rosters expand, anyway.

edabbs44
08-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Wow.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

Caveat Emperor
08-23-2012, 05:00 PM
He's been pretty mediocre all season -- sub-.300 OBP, defense decidedly in the "nothing special" column. In hindsight, it's pretty amazing they've carried him on the roster all year.

TOBTTReds
08-23-2012, 05:01 PM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

Needs 20 days down for an option to be used.

The Voice of IH
08-23-2012, 05:02 PM
Navarro can swing the bat now, but I thought Mes was doing a wonderful job controlling the pitchers and defense.

Does this mean he will not be on the playoff roster?

OesterPoster
08-23-2012, 05:02 PM
You guys act shocked, but Mark Sheldon brought up this exact scenario during his 2nd inning chat with Marty the other night. Mentioned that some fans brought it up to him via Twitter, but he didn't think the Reds would do it.

Tom Servo
08-23-2012, 05:04 PM
You guys act shocked, but Mark Sheldon brought up this exact scenario during his 2nd inning chat with Marty the other night. Mentioned that some fans brought it up to him via Twitter, but he didn't think the Reds would do it.
Yeah, Welsh brought up the possibility on last night's broadcast as well.

Hopefully Navarro brought his best glove with him to Cincinnati.

RedsMan3203
08-23-2012, 05:05 PM
I don't think they are wasting an option... I thought once you are optioned, you can go up and down all year without any issues.. And since he made the ball club out of spring training, that was his 1 option for the year?

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 05:05 PM
The playoff roster question is a big one, so I hope someone has an answer for that.

But also, Dusty has been hesitant to start Navarro when he has been here in the past (I know, extremely limited sample size), so I wonder if Hanigan is just going to be starting every day.

Homer Bailey
08-23-2012, 05:06 PM
I don't think they are wasting an option... I thought once you are optioned, you can go up and down all year without any issues.. And since he made the ball club out of spring training, that was his 1 option for the year?

No, if they would have optioned him from spring training, this whole year would have been an option year.

But as TOBTTReds says, I guess you have to be down for 20 days for an option to be burned? I didn't know this.

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Navarro can swing the bat now, but I thought Mes was doing a wonderful job controlling the pitchers and defense.

Does this mean he will not be on the playoff roster?

My guess would be that he's brought back up in time to make the playoff roster (the 31st, right?). It will be interesting to see what the pitching staff is for the playoffs. Various ways they could go.

I lean towards the getting Mez regular AB's in this final week & a half before rosters expand.

RedsMan3203
08-23-2012, 05:08 PM
Does he have to stay down for 10 days?

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 05:08 PM
The playoff roster question is a big one, so I hope someone has an answer for that.

But also, Dusty has been hesitant to start Navarro when he has been here in the past (I know, extremely limited sample size), so I wonder if Hanigan is just going to be starting every day.

I would think he will for the next week and a half he will.

The Voice of IH
08-23-2012, 05:08 PM
My guess would be that he's brought back up in time to make the playoff roster (the 31st, right?). It will be interesting to see what the pitching staff is for the playoffs. Various ways they could go.

I lean towards the getting Mez regular AB's in this final week & a half before rosters expand.

I'm a complete novice when it comes to rules like playoff rosters and the such. I, for one reason or another, was under the impression that if a player is sent down he had to stay down for 15 days. That however is probably totally wrong.

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 05:09 PM
Probably more or less just a way of getting a little consistent playing time to get charged up for the playoffs. He's not providing huge value as the back-up right now, so doesnt really impact our playoff chances. I fully expect he'll be back when they feel like he's got his swing in order and definitely on the playoff roster.

UKFlounder
08-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Unless someone gets "injured" before then...


Does he have to stay down for 10 days?

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 05:13 PM
I'm a complete novice when it comes to rules like playoff rosters and the such. I, for one reason or another, was under the impression that if a player is sent down he had to stay down for 15 days. That however is probably totally wrong.

You caught me on that one. I forgot about that. I have to think that someone will be heading to the DL because otherwise, Mesaraco won't be eligible for the play-off roster if he's not on the 25 man roster on the 31st. The plot thickens.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 05:15 PM
Probably more or less just a way of getting a little consistent playing time to get charged up for the playoffs. He's not providing huge value as the back-up right now, so doesnt really impact our playoff chances. I fully expect he'll be back when they feel like he's got his swing in order and definitely on the playoff roster.

I don't think hitting in AAA for a week in August is going to do you much good in October when you sat 4-5 days a week in between there.

OesterPoster
08-23-2012, 05:17 PM
August 31st: Rolen to the DL with back "soreness", Mez recalled.

They can play one infielder short in Houston for a day, then make September callups the next day.

Votto probably doesn't become active until that point either.

TOBTTReds
08-23-2012, 05:18 PM
He will still be eligible via a technicality in the rules. It concerns replacing a 60-day DL guy (Madson). Research Francisco Rodriguez 2002.

OesterPoster
08-23-2012, 05:19 PM
He will still be eligible via a technicality in the rules. It concerns replacing a 60-day DL guy (Madson). Research Francisco Rodriguez 2002.

I thought that was position player must be replaced by position player though. Pitcher for a pitcher.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 05:20 PM
Dan Hoard just said that as long as a player has been on a roster prior to September 1st, they are playoff roster eligible. Whether that is correct, I do not know.

TOBTTReds
08-23-2012, 05:21 PM
I thought that was position player must be replaced by position player though. Pitcher for a pitcher.

That's only if the players gets hurt in Sept or playoffs (I believe). Not for a past injury. The player has to actually be on the DL for 60 days

OesterPoster
08-23-2012, 05:24 PM
I just saw that too. Baseball Prospectus has the best rundown of the rules here:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11872

Sea Ray
08-23-2012, 05:28 PM
I just saw that too. Baseball Prospectus has the best rundown of the rules here:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11872

According to this Mes would not be eligible:


Off the field, the next marker on the road to the postseason comes Tuesday night, the deadline for post-season roster eligibility. Under Major League Rule 40 (a), the pool of players eligible for the postseason consists of the 25 players on the active roster and any players on the disabled, bereavement, suspended or military lists before midnight ET on August 31.

RedsMan3203
08-23-2012, 05:30 PM
According to this Mes would not be eligible:

Unless one of the catchers go on the DL between now and the playoffs.

medford
08-23-2012, 05:31 PM
Question,

could Mes' 2 days on the suspended list count towards his 10 days off the major league roster before returning w/o someone else getting injuried? 2 days suspended, plus 8 days in the minors sets him up to be back on the 31st of August.

I have no clue if that is possible.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:31 PM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

Option will not be used, silly.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 05:31 PM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

It only counts as an option if he spends 20 or more days in the minors.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Here's the thing:

Mes will be down for 10 days (assuming) and called up on Sept 3. So the option will not be used. (They have to be down for 20 days for option to "count" )

As for playoff eligibility, unless he is called up before next Friday, he will not be post-season eligible unless someone goes onto the disabled list.

defender
08-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Hannigan will probably start every payoff game. I think he will get a lot of days of September. Mes and Navarro should get significant ABs The Reds may consider taking the better hitting catcher to the playoffs, since the back up catcher may not start.

The Reds also will add one more position player in the playoffs, and might want Navarro as an option there.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 05:35 PM
Yes, to reiterate what 21 said, he won't be burning an option because he'll be down less than 20 days, but he won't be postseason eligible.

Aren't the Reds still down one man on the active roster though?

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:36 PM
Brutus, they are at 25.

TOBTTReds
08-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Yes, to reiterate what 21 said, he won't be burning an option because he'll be down less than 20 days, but he won't be postseason eligible.

Aren't the Reds still down one man on the active roster though?

Hoover was brought up.

TOBTTReds
08-23-2012, 05:41 PM
As for playoff eligibility, unless he is called up before next Friday, he will not be post-season eligible unless someone goes onto the disabled list.

He will replace Madson from the 60

Brutus
08-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Hoover was brought up.

My source of confusion was forgetting that they brought up Navarro when Ondrusek was optioned.

RedsManRick
08-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

Because they're going to need those options in the future?

Brutus
08-23-2012, 05:42 PM
He will replace Madson from the 60

You can only replace someone if they get injured on the active roster. Madson isn't active, so that won't apply.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:42 PM
He will replace Madson from the 60

What?

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 05:46 PM
I don't think hitting in AAA for a week in August is going to do you much good in October when you sat 4-5 days a week in between there.

How do you know?

Can it hurt?

Is he better off getting 0 playing time next week?

Playing more certainly cannot hurt, even if only for a week.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 05:49 PM
How do you know?

Can it hurt?

Is he better off getting 0 playing time next week?

Playing more certainly cannot hurt, even if only for a week.

It's a moot point anyhow. With this decision, the Reds are effectively saying they're going to rely on Navarro in October as their backup catcher rather than Mesoraco.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 05:50 PM
How do you know?

Can it hurt?

Is he better off getting 0 playing time next week?

Playing more certainly cannot hurt, even if only for a week.

Him not getting any playing time next week was never an option.

And sure, playing more can't hurt, but I don't see that week doing much to make up for him sitting 65% of the time for the 4.5 weeks following that week. Those extra at bats aren't going to do much moving forward this year because what probably caused the problems in the first place (a lack of consistent at bats) is just going to happen again after that week is up.

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 05:50 PM
I'm guessing we'll hear more when Marty interviews Dusty for the pre-game. Will be interesting to hear about it. I feel bad for Mesoraco if he misses the playoffs.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:52 PM
Dusty will give a generic "we want him to get more at-bats" type answer.

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 05:54 PM
If our interpretation of the rules is correct, then I take back what I said.

Leaving Mes off the playoff roster is not a good decision IMO.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 05:55 PM
He won't be playoff eligible unless someone gets hurt, plain and simple.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 06:01 PM
FWIW, Navarro had 62 plate appearances in the 2008 playoffs, with a .701 OPS. He struggled in the division series, but had a nice series in the ALCS and World Series.

Perhaps this is weighing heavily in the Reds' decision to go with him as the backup catcher for October, since they likely trust him and his experience more than Mesoraco right now.

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Even if Mes is not eligible for the postseason, does it matter? Hanigan is likely to start every game, and Navarro is a better option as a bat off the bench in the postseason.

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 06:15 PM
Even if Mes is not eligible for the postseason, does it matter? Hanigan is likely to start every game, and Navarro is a better option as a bat off the bench in the postseason.

Navarro is an awful hitter. I would definitely rather have Mesoraco at the plate.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 06:18 PM
Navarro is an awful hitter. I would definitely rather have Mesoraco at the plate.

I trust Navarro in a crucial at-bat far more than Mesoraco right now. Mesoraco has been lost at the plate lately. Mesoraco is far more talented, but he's probably not a better hitter at this point in his career.

Raisor
08-23-2012, 06:23 PM
If they were going to do this, they should have done it months ago.

Before the demotion is was on pace for 210 ABs. Much rather he get 400-500 in AAA

Raisor
08-23-2012, 06:23 PM
If they were going to do this, they should have done it months ago.

Before the demotion is was on pace for 210 ABs. Much rather he get 400-500 in AAA

757690
08-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Unless there is something we don't know behind this, I really don't understand it.

OesterPoster
08-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Fay getting a little testy. I guess we take his word for it:

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

I got the Mesoraco eligibility stuff from the #Reds rules guy. He CAN be eligible. Period. I'm not answering anymore questions about it
Expand

pedro
08-23-2012, 06:26 PM
If they were going to do this, they should have done it months ago.

Before the demotion is was on pace for 210 ABs. Much rather he get 400-500 in AAA

IMO what he likely learned from being in the majors was more valuable than the AB's in the minors.

757690
08-23-2012, 06:27 PM
I'm guessing he replaces Bray on the playoff roster.

Blitz Dorsey
08-23-2012, 06:28 PM
This thread is hilarious. (Unintentionally.)

So, for those just tuning in, save yourself reading through the first 3 pages of this thread ... unless you want your head to spin off your neck. The bottom line? The Reds FINALLY called up the fourth-best reliever in the organization (Chapman, Broxton, Marshall, Hoover) and Mesoraco WILL be eligible for the postseason roster. You can thank me later.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 06:32 PM
I don't know how he can be eligible.

REDREAD
08-23-2012, 06:34 PM
This thread is hilarious. (Unintentionally.)

So, for those just tuning in, save yourself reading through the first 3 pages of this thread ... unless you want your head to spin off your neck. The bottom line? The Reds FINALLY called up the fourth-best reliever in the organization (Chapman, Broxton, Marshall, Hoover) and Mesoraco WILL be eligible for the postseason roster. You can thank me later.

In light of this.. this is a great idea..
Let Mez play the rest of the AAA season, get some at bats. Then call him up, he's still eligible for the playoffs.
Why didn't they do this earlier? I think Mez learned a lot catching Homer and Leake. The Reds actually have the luxury of playing a light hitting catcher if they need to. I guess if Mez is truly the Grade A prospect we hope he is, he'll eventually start hitting at the ML level.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 06:34 PM
This is what ML Rule 40(a) says on eligibility:


(1) Major League Roster Players. To be eligible to play for a Major League Club in a Division Series, League Championship Series, or the World Series, a player must

(A) have been on a Major League Active, Disabled (subject to the exception in Rule 2(g)(2) (Major League Disabled List; Transfers)), Bereavement, Suspended or Military List of such Major League Club as of Midnight Eastern Time on August 31, or on such date be under control, but not yet reported, on assignment from another Major League organization; and

(B) have remained reserved to such Major League Club (at the Major or Minor League levels) through the beginning of the applicable post-season series,

unless the player is replacing an injured player pursuant to Rule 40(a)(3).

Tom Servo
08-23-2012, 06:35 PM
Put Cairo on the DL due to inflammation of the medulla oblongata on the 31st, recall Mes. Boom.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 06:36 PM
Yeah, that's the only way I can see it happening.

IslandRed
08-23-2012, 06:38 PM
Put Cairo on the DL due to inflammation of the medulla oblongata on the 31st, recall Mes. Boom.

Doesn't even have to be by the 31st. If they want Mes on the postseason roster, they'll find an "injury" to make it happen, even with the position-player-for-position-player caveat.

Kc61
08-23-2012, 06:41 PM
This thread is hilarious. (Unintentionally.)

So, for those just tuning in, save yourself reading through the first 3 pages of this thread ... unless you want your head to spin off your neck. The bottom line? The Reds FINALLY called up the fourth-best reliever in the organization (Chapman, Broxton, Marshall, Hoover) and Mesoraco WILL be eligible for the postseason roster. You can thank me later.

I just got on. Read the thread. It is a classic.

Two thoughts.

1. How do the Reds have 25 men on the roster? I don't see it. They were playing with 24. Mes comes back. He gets swapped out for Hoover. Still 24 if you ask me. Who's the 25th?

2. Somebody will be disabled before the 31st. Mes will get back on the roster for the playoffs. Whether they use him or not, I don't know, but that's got to be the idea.

cinreds21
08-23-2012, 06:43 PM
I just got on. Read the thread. It is a classic.

Two thoughts.

1. How do the Reds have 25 men on the roster? I don't see it. They were playing with 24. Mes comes back. He gets swapped out for Hoover. Still 24 if you ask me. Who's the 25th?

2. Somebody will be disabled before the 31st. Mes will get back on the roster for the playoffs. Whether they use him or not, I don't know, but that's got to be the idea.

24 was without Mes. Mes comes back and makes it 25. Just swap Hoover in for Mes and it's still 25.

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 06:44 PM
I just got on. Read the thread. It is a classic.

Two thoughts.

1. How do the Reds have 25 men on the roster? I don't see it. They were playing with 24. Mes comes back. He gets swapped out for Hoover. Still 24 if you ask me. Who's the 25th?

2. Somebody will be disabled before the 31st. Mes will get back on the roster for the playoffs. Whether they use him or not, I don't know, but that's got to be the idea.


While Mez was suspended, they did play with 24 players. He was the 25th slot, albeit not permitted to play, etc. His 25th spot has been filled now by Hoover.

cincrazy
08-23-2012, 06:44 PM
Navarro is an awful hitter. I would definitely rather have Mesoraco at the plate.

But Navarro is a switch-hitter, and he's been an awful hitter lately... but has had past success.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 06:45 PM
I just got on. Read the thread. It is a classic.

Two thoughts.

1. How do the Reds have 25 men on the roster? I don't see it. They were playing with 24. Mes comes back. He gets swapped out for Hoover. Still 24 if you ask me. Who's the 25th?

2. Somebody will be disabled before the 31st. Mes will get back on the roster for the playoffs. Whether they use him or not, I don't know, but that's got to be the idea.

I really don't think that's their idea at all. I think they honestly trust Navarro in the postseason more than they trust Mesoraco right now. Navarro has 60+ plate appearances of postseason experience. Given that this organization values experience, I think that's your reason right there for the move.

Kc61
08-23-2012, 06:46 PM
While Mez was suspended, they did play with 24 players. He was the 25th slot, albeit not permitted to play, etc. His 25th spot has been filled now by Hoover.

Ok, got it.

redsmetz
08-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Has anyone put forth this quote from Dusty in Sheldon's blog? He writes, "eds manager Dusty Baker met with him this afternoon and hoped he can get into a groove and find fun in the game again in Louisville." - then Dusty's quote.

“We’re hoping that’s what the final outcome is,” Baker said. “It depends on him and depends on the progress that he makes. We really want to stress that it has nothing to do with his suspension. This has kind of been dabbled about for a while. We could see his confidence has gone down some. We want to get his confidence back, offensively, defensively, throwing and all kind of ways.

“It’s a tough position like I said in Spring Training when you have a rookie catcher that’s not playing every day and the fact that Hanigan was playing so well.”

Sheldon also says he'll be eligible for the playoffs.

cumberlandreds
08-23-2012, 06:51 PM
I was always under the assumption that you had tobe on the 40 man roster to be eligible for the playoffs. Before each series the teams have to turn in a 25 man roster that is active for that series. I'm probably wrong but that's how I thought it worked.

I really think Mez will be on the playoff roster. They think and I agree with them that he needs some regular AB's for a week or so.

Kc61
08-23-2012, 06:52 PM
I really don't think that's their idea at all. I think they honestly trust Navarro in the postseason more than they trust Mesoraco right now. Navarro has 60+ plate appearances of postseason experience. Given that this organization values experience, I think that's your reason right there for the move.

I've done some reading.

A player can play in the post-season under two circumstances.

1. He's on the 25 man roster or the DL on August 31.

2. He replaces somebody who gets hurt AFTER August 31. If a pitcher gets hurt, a pitcher must replace him. If a non-pitcher gets hurt, a non-pitcher must replace him.

That's my understanding after a quick read. So for Mes to play in the playoffs, he either has to be back by 8/31 or replace someone who gets hurt AFTER 8/31.

As for the Reds intentions, I agree Brutus, that the Reds value veterans. But they are also loyal. Not sure they want to tell Mes, a prized prospect, that they are leaving him off the roster after the whole year.

But of course, I have no idea what they really intend, you may be correct.

Raisor
08-23-2012, 07:49 PM
IMO what he likely learned from being in the majors was more valuable than the AB's in the minors.

Everyone is always talking about us not talking about the human side of the game.

Here's my shot at it.

Mes has been, if not the best, then one of the couple best players on every team he's ever played on. As a minor league player he's averaged over 400 PA's per year (not including rookie ball). He makes it to the bigs, he's a top prospect and he sits on the bench 60% of the time. Ball players have big egos. This can't have been a fun year for him. Not just struggling at the plate, but becoming, essentially, a role player.

Maybe it will be better for him long term, I don't know.

757690
08-23-2012, 08:12 PM
Are the Bat's going the playoffs this season? If so, that's would mean a lot more playing time in AAA for Mes.

757690
08-23-2012, 08:13 PM
Everyone is always talking about us not talking about the human side of the game.

Here's my shot at it.

Mes has been, if not the best, then one of the couple best players on every team he's ever played on. As a minor league player he's averaged over 400 PA's per year (not including rookie ball). He makes it to the bigs, he's a top prospect and he sits on the bench 60% of the time. Ball players have big egos. This can't have been a fun year for him. Not just struggling at the plate, but becoming, essentially, a role player.

Maybe it will be better for him long term, I don't know.

Makes sense.

pedro
08-23-2012, 08:16 PM
Everyone is always talking about us not talking about the human side of the game.

Here's my shot at it.

Mes has been, if not the best, then one of the couple best players on every team he's ever played on. As a minor league player he's averaged over 400 PA's per year (not including rookie ball). He makes it to the bigs, he's a top prospect and he sits on the bench 60% of the time. Ball players have big egos. This can't have been a fun year for him. Not just struggling at the plate, but becoming, essentially, a role player.

Maybe it will be better for him long term, I don't know.

Do you really think he'd rather be playing everyday in the minors? Honestly?

Dude just spent his first year in the major leagues. Not riding the bus, getting paid a major league salary. Eating major league food. Not to mention major league women. You really think he's not having fun because he's a back up in his rookie year? I'm flummoxed Raisor, I know you have more imagination than this. Pretend he was RFS62. Now ask yourself again. Does he want to be in the minors riding the bus all night and eating at burger king?

Besides, he's not a role player, he's a catcher learning the ropes in the big leagues. He'll get his day.

dabvu2498
08-23-2012, 08:18 PM
Are the Bat's going the playoffs this season? If so, that's would mean a lot more playing time in AAA for Mes.

Louisville is 50-83.

Tom Servo
08-23-2012, 08:21 PM
Louisville is 50-83.
So...yes?

Kc61
08-23-2012, 08:32 PM
Here's a possible scenario.

Reds will DL a pitcher and bring back Mes before September first.

Only need eleven pitchers for playoffs. If a pitcher gets hurt later, somebody is allowed to replace him in playoffs. And DL wouldn't prevent the pitcher, say Lecure, from returning for playoffs.

Obviously, after September 1 Reds will expand rosters and have plenty of pitchers for the regular season.

Reds could then have three catchers for the post season, but Navarro is a switch hitter and gives the Reds a needed additional lefty hitter for the bench. Reds may want this to give them more lefty hitting in playoffs.

Which pitcher goes to make room for Mes? Maybe Lecure who hasn't been healthy. Could be DL'd.

Just speculating.

_Sir_Charles_
08-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Are the Bat's going the playoffs this season? If so, that's would mean a lot more playing time in AAA for Mes.

*snicker* :laugh:

33 games under .500 just so you know. They've been unbelievably bad.

Raisor
08-23-2012, 08:44 PM
Do you really think he'd rather be playing everyday in the minors? Honestly?

Dude just spent his first year in the major leagues. Not riding the bus, getting paid a major league salary. Eating major league food. Not to mention major league women. You really think he's not having fun because he's a back up in his rookie year? I'm flummoxed Raisor, I know you have more imagination than this. Pretend he was RFS62. Now ask yourself again. Does he want to be in the minors riding the bus all night and eating at burger king?

Besides, he's not a role player, he's a catcher learning the ropes in the big leagues. He'll get his day.


No, I'm not saying he would want to be in the minors.

I'm saying that being on pace to bat only 200 times in a season and was on pace to appear in 67 games.

You don't think that THAT might cause confidence issues?

757690
08-23-2012, 08:49 PM
Assuming Mes starts playing tomorrow for the Bats, and plays every day, that's 10 games, which is about a months worth of games for him with the Reds. It might not seem lime much, but psychologically, it could make a difference.

Still it's puzzling this wasn't made sooner, if this really is an issue they are concerned about.

pedro
08-23-2012, 08:49 PM
No, I'm not saying he would want to be in the minors.

I'm saying that being on pace to bat only 200 times in a season and was on pace to appear in 67 games.

You don't think that THAT might cause confidence issues?

I'm sure he'd rather be doing better but I also bet he's learned a lot and understands that if he had played better he'd probably be playing more.

757690
08-23-2012, 08:58 PM
I'm sure he'd rather be doing better but I also bet he's learned a lot and understands that if he had played better he'd probably be playing more.

To be honest, not really sure if that last sentence is true. I think even if had a Frazier like season at the plate, at best he would get one extra start a week. Hanigan is catching Cueto and Arroyo everytime this year, no matter what.

pedro
08-23-2012, 09:06 PM
To be honest, not really sure if that last sentence is true. I think even if had a Frazier like season at the plate, at best he would get one extra start a week. Hanigan is catching Cueto and Arroyo everytime this year, no matter what.

I think he would have played more, but yeah, not any more than half the games. I still don't think he had anything else to benefit playing everyday in the minors.

Raisor
08-23-2012, 09:09 PM
I'm sure he'd rather be doing better but I also bet he's learned a lot and understands that if he had played better he'd probably be playing more.

He may have hit better if he didn't average 7 PA's a week.

Wonderful Monds
08-23-2012, 09:14 PM
He may have hit better if he didn't average 7 PA's a week.

Could you really advocate him getting more time though?

Raisor
08-23-2012, 09:18 PM
Could you really advocate him getting more time though?

I'd had liked a 50/50 split. With that not happening, I would have sent Mes to the Minors at the break.

pedro
08-23-2012, 09:23 PM
I'd had liked a 50/50 split. With that not happening, I would have sent Mes to the Minors at the break.

Fair enough. I understand where you;re coming from , I just happen to think it's been good for him to learn at the big league level and I do think he's been the best option for a back up.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:26 PM
I still want to know why at some point this season, Hanigan hasn't caught more of Homer/Leake and Mesoraco hasn't caught more of Cueto/Latos/Arroyo. Having strict "guys" has led to a whole bunch of inconsistent playing time. Until August, Mesoraco had caught back to back games twice all year (and they came in April). Is it a shock that he wasn't hitting? Here we are about to head to the playoffs and no other catcher on the staff has more than 2 games caught for three of our pitchers. What happens if Hanigan gets hurt? We have to play down the stretch with the last time someone caught Latos, Arroyo and Cueto being in March and April.

Wonderful Monds
08-23-2012, 09:27 PM
I'd had liked a 50/50 split. With that not happening, I would have sent Mes to the Minors at the break.

Under most other circumstances I would say that's about what I would want for them as well, but it was a tough situation with Hanigan playing so well. I agree maybe some more AAA time would've been good for Mes, but I think more than anything he could just use a touch more polish down there.

Wonderful Monds
08-23-2012, 09:28 PM
I still want to know why at some point this season, Hanigan hasn't caught more of Homer/Leake and Mesoraco hasn't caught more of Cueto/Latos/Arroyo. Having strict "guys" has led to a whole bunch of inconsistent playing time. Until August, Mesoraco had caught back to back games twice all year (and they came in April). Is it a shock that he wasn't hitting? Here we are about to head to the playoffs and no other catcher on the staff has more than 2 games caught for three of our pitchers. What happens if Hanigan gets hurt? We have to play down the stretch with the last time someone caught Latos, Arroyo and Cueto being in March and April.

Mesoraco started catching back to back games out of the break when the rotation was reshuffled.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:28 PM
I still want to know why at some point this season, Hanigan hasn't caught more of Homer/Leake and Mesoraco hasn't caught more of Cueto/Latos/Arroyo. Having strict "guys" has led to a whole bunch of inconsistent playing time. Until August, Mesoraco had caught back to back games twice all year (and they came in April). Is it a shock that he wasn't hitting? Here we are about to head to the playoffs and no other catcher on the staff has more than 2 games caught for three of our pitchers. What happens if Hanigan gets hurt? We have to play down the stretch with the last time someone caught Latos, Arroyo and Cueto being in March and April.

Todd Frazier found a way to hit and he wasn't playing much for the first half of the year.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:30 PM
Todd Frazier found a way to hit and he wasn't playing much for the first half of the year.

Todd Frazier also had the option of having his match ups picked for him. Mesoraco got to hit against whoever happened to face one of his pitchers. Todd Frazier is also 26, not 23.

Raisor
08-23-2012, 09:31 PM
Todd Frazier found a way to hit and he wasn't playing much for the first half of the year.

Frazier had 200 PA's at the break.

Mes had 130.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:31 PM
Mesoraco started catching back to back games out of the break when the rotation was reshuffled.

Late July, August... not too much of a difference. Either way, he went roughly 3.5 months while playing back to back games twice.

Wonderful Monds
08-23-2012, 09:32 PM
Todd Frazier found a way to hit and he wasn't playing much for the first half of the year.

Yeah but what works for one player might not for another. And arguably Todd has hit best since being an everyday player the last month. Ludwick started hitting better since being a more regular starter etc.

I think it's fair to assume that some guys need to have a regular playing time, and other guys might not.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Frazier had 200 PA's at the break.

Mes had 130.

Which is only about one extra game a week.

That's basically three games versus two games. Not a vast difference.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:35 PM
Todd Frazier also had the option of having his match ups picked for him. Mesoraco got to hit against whoever happened to face one of his pitchers. Todd Frazier is also 26, not 23.

Except that's not really very often when Baker played Frazier early on. It was more about when Scott Rolen needed a day off, i.e. day game after night game, etc.

Not very often early in the year was Frazier really starting because of match-ups. He didn't have an established track record against any pitchers, so there weren't really a lot of match-ups established to dictate his playing time. It was more about Rolen.

hebroncougar
08-23-2012, 09:35 PM
I'm not thrilled with the move. It would be a little different if they had someone who was decent to bring up, but Navarro is a terrible defender. The last time he was behind the plate he wasn't even competent. Mesoraco has been a good trooper, hasn't complained about playing time, and even said he learned more up in the bigs while not playing as much than in AAA. Then he sticks up for his pitcher to an umpire who was horrible, gets suspended, and send down. Doesn't sit well with me.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Except that's not really very often when Baker played Frazier early on. It was more about when Scott Rolen needed a day off, i.e. day game after night game, etc.

Not very often early in the year was Frazier really starting because of match-ups. He didn't have an established track record against any pitchers, so there weren't really a lot of match-ups established to dictate his playing time. It was more about Rolen.

Frazier played in 22 games in May, 23 in June, 24 in July. I think he is getting a little more consistent time than Mesoraco has.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:43 PM
Frazier played in 22 games in May, 23 in June, 24 in July. I think he is getting a little more consistent time than Mesoraco has.

Based on Raisor's ASB numbers, Frazier was getting about 14 PAs per week whereas Mesoraco was getting about 9 PAs.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:44 PM
Based on Raisor's ASB numbers, Frazier was getting about 14 PAs per week whereas Mesoraco was getting about 9 PAs.

That is nearly two extra games per week given Mesoraco's batting 8th.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:51 PM
*

Brutus
08-23-2012, 09:55 PM
That is nearly two extra games per week given Mesoraco's batting 8th.

The Reds' 8-spot in the order is averaging almost exactly 4 PA's per game. So 5 extra plate appearances a week is only about 1.2 games worth.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 09:56 PM
The Reds' 8-spot in the order is averaging almost exactly 4 PA's per game. So 5 extra plate appearances a week is only about 1.2 games worth.

So it is 4-5 extra starts per month. That is fairly significant don't you think?

Patrick Bateman
08-23-2012, 09:59 PM
I don't think there's much question that Mes has not gotten a lot of playing time this year.

I also don't think there is much question that Mes hasn't done much with the playing time he has gotten.

It's a tough situation brought on by the fact the Reds had two potentially strong options. Unfortunately, something has to give. There isn't always an easier answer, or only one way to do things. Overall, catching has not been a huge issue this season, so I don't get all the hand wringing on the matter.

If it's true that Mes will be eligible for the playoffs, and that's the plan, then I like the move, because getitng him some confidence and some consistent playing time to get his swing in order for the last part of the season is likely the best way to satisfy everyone at this juncture.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 10:01 PM
So it is 4-5 extra starts per month. That is fairly significant don't you think?

If I believed it were significant in my own opinion, I wouldn't be debating it :thumbup:

Look, I think that it's certainly more difficult to get into a rhythm when you're not playing every day, but thousands of Major Leaguers have had very good careers not playing everyday or even pinch hitting. So I don't think it's fair to excuse Mesoraco for not hitting simply because he isn't doing it everyday. A lot of guys have done it playing the amount he's played.

The bottom line is that while sparsity of playing time might be a factor, it's not the sole factor and arguably not even the primary factor. It's a valid factor, certainly, but many ballplayers before him have done it without getting consistent playing time, so it can't excuse not getting the job done he's paid to do.

I don't see people excusing Miguel Cairo or Wilson Valdez for being really bad, and they have the same excuse yes?

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 10:03 PM
I don't see people excusing Miguel Cairo or Wilson Valdez for being really bad, and they have the same excuse yes?

Those two guys are career backups in their mid 30's. Mesoraco is a rookie in his age 23 season.

kaldaniels
08-23-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm on record saying I wish he played more. But with Hanigan on the team it is gonna be hard for Mes to be a catcher who starts 75% of the time or so. (not that i agree with that) It has to have been a frustrating year for him, and unfortunately he did not impress at the plate. It is just the way it is, but we have wasted his first cheap season. I'm sure he picked up knowledge, but man it is just a bummer the way this year went down for him.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Those two guys are career backups in their mid 30's. Mesoraco is a rookie in his age 23 season.

How does that matter? The point is they are not hitting well and he's not hitting well. They're not playing much, he's not playing much. Why should he get excused? They're all being paid to hit a baseball and none of them are doing it. I'm not at all giving up on Mesoraco, as I think age and playing time are factors. My point here is that lack of playing time should apply to everyone if you're going to use that as an excuse for why they're not hitting.

Roy Tucker
08-23-2012, 11:02 PM
Navarro isn't wet behind the ears. He had some pretty major ABs for Tampa Bay's post-season run in 2008.

dougdirt
08-23-2012, 11:11 PM
How does that matter? The point is they are not hitting well and he's not hitting well. They're not playing much, he's not playing much. Why should he get excused? They're all being paid to hit a baseball and none of them are doing it. I'm not at all giving up on Mesoraco, as I think age and playing time are factors. My point here is that lack of playing time should apply to everyone if you're going to use that as an excuse for why they're not hitting.

Well, for starters they have been doing it for years and are better able to prepare themselves for it would be my first guess. Mesoraco has never in his life had to sit down and watch someone else play. If you can't see the difference there, then I am not sure what to tell you.

Brutus
08-23-2012, 11:13 PM
Well, for starters they have been doing it for years and are better able to prepare themselves for it would be my first guess. Mesoraco has never in his life had to sit down and watch someone else play. If you can't see the difference there, then I am not sure what to tell you.

I'm not sure how not hitting consistently for several years makes not hitting consistently easier to hit consistently.

So I guess we're both speechless.

AmarilloRed
08-23-2012, 11:28 PM
I think catcher is a bit different than the other positions. I think if it was judged Devin wasn't ready to play all or most of the games in spring training, there was nothing wrong with sending him down and have him play the whole season in AAA. If he is ready, give him all or most of the starts. In other words, I don't think it pays to split time at catcher. Going forward, make that decision next spring training-either decide to make him the full time starter next year or send him to AAA for the year.

dfs
08-23-2012, 11:40 PM
I think catcher is a bit different than the other positions. I think if it was judged Devin wasn't ready to play all or most of the games in spring training, there was nothing wrong with sending him down and have him play the whole season in AAA. If he is ready, give him all or most of the starts. In other words, I don't think it pays to split time at catcher.

I understand what you are thinking from a developmental point of view, but from a tactical point of view, I think there is a lot to be said for having a catching tandem. You get less wear and tear on these guys who really need the rest. Plus you end up insulated against injury. Bill Plummer always looked a bit lost out there because he got to play so rarely.

I think the catching duet was handled very well this year. I'm curious about the reason for Mesoraco's demotion. If the TV crew has mentioned it, I missed it.

mth123
08-24-2012, 12:04 AM
Why is it such a tragedy that a kid comes up, struggles and gets sent back down? It used to be the norm. Its not for life.

Griffey012
08-24-2012, 12:19 AM
Wow. They wasted an option on Mesoraco for 8 days? Really? Or is there a rule that won't make it use an option since he will be back in 8 days?

If we ever get to the point we need to use all of Mez's options anyway then I will have no problem DFA'ing him because he will at that point be a replacement level backup catcher. Odds are he never has another option used. If it even counts as an option.

dougdirt
08-24-2012, 12:22 AM
If we ever get to the point we need to use all of Mez's options anyway then I will have no problem DFA'ing him because he will at that point be a replacement level backup catcher. Odds are he never has another option used. If it even counts as an option.

It doesn't count, and you are probably right even if it did.

Brutus
08-24-2012, 12:22 AM
If we ever get to the point we need to use all of Mez's options anyway then I will have no problem DFA'ing him because he will at that point be a replacement level backup catcher. Odds are he never has another option used. If it even counts as an option.

Small pet point of order... DFA is just a temporary thing. What you probably mean is outright assign him to the minors.

DFA is just a temporary list to buy a club 10 days to decide whether to assign outright, trade or release a player.

REDREAD
08-24-2012, 10:48 AM
Todd Frazier is also 26, not 23.

Not sure that their age matters as far as playing time goes..
Why should Mes get more playing time just because he's younger?
Hannigan has played extremely well.. I don't think he should lose playing time just because of Mes' age.
Mes is young, he's got a long career ahead of him.. It's fine that his rookie year meant he only played 40% of the time. It's not as if he siezed the opportunity. I guess I could see the argument for a AAA demotion more than giving him more Major League playing time..

Unless you are saying that it's expected that Frasier hits better than Mes due to age.. but Mes shouldn't get any special treatment IMO.

dougdirt
08-24-2012, 10:53 AM
I am not saying Mesoraco should get more playing time because he is younger. I am saying that the older you are, the more likely you are able to handle not playing every single day, being more prepared for that scenario.

traderumor
08-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I think Mesaroco has stunk so bad that a little Mike Leake-like time in the minors just to clear his head could make him more effective in September and beyond. All the other junk is water under the bridge, and quite frankly, excuse making for not hitting. And who knows if his time watching the game is benefitting him in the here and now. Sometimes you are learning and growing even though it isn't apparent while it is occurring. It is something you look back and realize the value. Or, maybe the Reds just screwed up with Mes this year. They don't have to be perfect on every decision to be competent (although it is consistently presented that way on here by deadpanners).

CySeymour
08-24-2012, 11:12 AM
I am not saying Mesoraco should get more playing time because he is younger. I am saying that the older you are, the more likely you are able to handle not playing every single day, being more prepared for that scenario.

This I can totally understand. Because of that, should Mes have been sent down a lot earlier?

Raisor
08-24-2012, 11:29 AM
This I can totally understand. Because of that, should Mes have been sent down a lot earlier?

Here's what I think should have been the plan:
Mesaroco up for the first half, 50-50 split playing time with Hanigan. Allowed to catch all the starters instead of just his normal two. If his bat and glove can handle it, he proceeds to get more playing time as time goes on.

Once it became clear that he was only starting 40 percent of the time, and not improving, he should have been sent to AAA at the break so he could stay sharp.

First half was for learning in the bigs, second half for preparing for next year.

Kc61
08-24-2012, 12:32 PM
The Reds handled Mes just fine, sending him down was just fine, and I'm sure they will use good judgment in deciding whether to bring him back for the playoffs.

The Reds had to balance winning now with developing Mes. They wanted to expose him to the big leagues. But they felt Hanigan was better equipped to get more starts.

Mes didn't seize the position this time around. He got meaningful big league exposure. The big league team didn't suffer. He will be back and there will be other opportunities for him.

I thought the whole thing was handled properly. And I disagree with those who wanted Hanigan to play less as well as those who wanted Mes at AAA for a longer period. The course followed was the best idea IMO.

kheidg-
08-24-2012, 12:43 PM
There comes a point in time where a first place team can carry along rookies and let them learn their mistakes at the big league level only so much.

Hanigan is far and away the greater catcher on the team (at this point) and there is no sense having this big of an argument on a backup catcher.

We're in this to win the World Series, and unless Hanigan gets hurt - I don't see a scenerio where our backup catcher will carry us into the World Series.

Unless Mes is back before the deadline, this move probably says more about the post season rotation than anything else.

corkedbat
08-24-2012, 01:00 PM
I was against Mez starting the season on the Big Club unless he was going to handle the bulk of the catching duties. My thoughts are still the same. Don't like seeing top young guys not getting regular ABs

REDREAD
08-24-2012, 02:52 PM
I am not saying Mesoraco should get more playing time because he is younger. I am saying that the older you are, the more likely you are able to handle not playing every single day, being more prepared for that scenario.

Ok, I can see your point.. however.. when Frasier and Hannigan (and many others) came up, they were playing every day in the minors and were able to adjust and make the most of the playing time they did get..
I'm not sure that age makes a difference.. Going from playing everyday to playing less than half the time is an adjustment, I'll grant you that.
I even agree that if Mes played the majority of the time, his bat may be more advanced now.. The problem is that Hannigan is playing so well, Mes really didn't deserve any more PT.

edabbs44
08-24-2012, 03:14 PM
Here's what I think should have been the plan:
Mesaroco up for the first half, 50-50 split playing time with Hanigan. Allowed to catch all the starters instead of just his normal two. If his bat and glove can handle it, he proceeds to get more playing time as time goes on.

Once it became clear that he was only starting 40 percent of the time, and not improving, he should have been sent to AAA at the break so he could stay sharp.

First half was for learning in the bigs, second half for preparing for next year.

Goal #1 of this season is in the process of being achieved and then some. Mesoraco's progress as a player takes a backseat to that goal.

Raisor
08-24-2012, 03:28 PM
Goal #1 of this season is in the process of being achieved and then some. Mesoraco's progress as a player takes a backseat to that goal.

In that case, Hanigan should have been playing 80 percent of the time with Mes in AAA even earlier.

Kc61
08-24-2012, 03:45 PM
Mesoraco had 499 plate appearances in AAA last season and batted OPS .855.

What was to be served sticking him at Louisville for another season to play with a very poor team?

Is it folks' position that Devin didn't gain anything catching major league pitchers this year?

I've read this thread and see no real argument against the Reds handling of this guy.

RANDY IN INDY
08-24-2012, 04:06 PM
Because of the way the situation has been handled all season, the Reds have a much fresher Ryan Hannigan for the stretch run. That was probably not the plan, but having a catcher that has had some rest at this point in the season is a huge plus.

CrackerJack
08-24-2012, 05:06 PM
Not sure I understand the controversy.

My thought is that they simply are taking the opportunity to get him back on track in AAA and gain some confidence, just as Dusty said, as he's not played in a week or so (I believe).

If he hits well down there, then they bring him back up, as he's a superior defender to Navarro. I don't view it as anything more than that. If he struggles, why bring him back up when he can work on things down there for now, when they have a superior offensive replacement? Makes sense to me. Just wish they had an OF and an IF who could upgrade what they have also at the plate.

Tom Servo
08-26-2012, 03:58 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=24210325

Hoover :)