PDA

View Full Version : And this loss belongs to Dusty!



UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 09:44 AM
One look at the box score is all I need to understand that.

With both Valdez and Cairo in the lineup, Hanigan bats 8th! Result: Hanigan gets walked 3 times!

Still the weak lineup managed to score 3 runs against Hamel. But... Dusty mismanages the bullpen. On a night when Chapman and Broxton are both unavailable and he's shorthanded, Dusty decides to pull Marshall out early. He was pitching well. The last hitter got the bat on a very good pitch and found a hole in the infield. Why pull Marshall, you're best available reliever, in a close game that could go extra innings when you don't have Broxton or Chapman waiting to clean up!!!

Biff Pocoroba
08-24-2012, 09:56 AM
I don't agree with every move Dusty makes - including the two that you highlighted. Having said that, there's a certain level petulance in pinning a (rare) loss on the manager based on a couple of things you didn't agree with.

DocRed
08-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Was the game tied when LeCure came in?

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 11:21 AM
No, the Reds had a 3-2 lead. Marshall had given up a single. Sam proceeded to then give up 3 singles

dubc47834
08-24-2012, 11:27 AM
It never fails, something doesn't go right...blame Dusty!!!! Something goes right...it's in spite of Dusty. For the Dusty haters, you better get used to him being around because he's probly gonna get extended...and rightfully so!!!

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 11:30 AM
I don't agree with every move Dusty makes - including the two that you highlighted. Having said that, there's a certain level petulance in pinning a (rare) loss on the manager based on a couple of things you didn't agree with.

I'll grant you that better decisions may still have resulted in a loss. But those 2 decisions defy all logic. Even if Lecure gets out of it, I'd still be shaking my head at pulling Marshall in a game when we find out later that Chapman and Broxton weren't available. And what other manager in baseball would decide to bat Hanigan 8th with Cairo and Valdez ahead of him in the order? So maybe Phillips and Rolen needed a night off and this was a good night to do it since they don't hit Hamels well. Fine, not questioning his judgement on that. But why continue to bat Hanigan 8th in a weakened lineup?

I avoid basing criticism of the manager solely on the performance of the players. Some on this board do that regularly and I don't agree. But these 2 decisions defy all baseball logic. Worries me come playoff time.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 11:33 AM
It never fails, something doesn't go right...blame Dusty!!!! Something goes right...it's in spite of Dusty. For the Dusty haters, you better get used to him being around because he's probly gonna get extended...and rightfully so!!!

Ok, if you don't think Dusty was wrong last night, then you tell me how you can defend those 2 decisions. Tell me what I'm missing?

dubc47834
08-24-2012, 11:43 AM
Ok, if you don't think Dusty was wrong last night, then you tell me how you can defend those 2 decisions. Tell me what I'm missing?

To me it's a 1 game deal having those guys bat in the lineup like that. It doesn't happen often. I said in another thread that to to me you rest your guys against teams like the Phillies who aren't in the division and then come rested for the Cardinals. It's the Cards who are chasing us, not the Phillies. As for the pitching moves, I didn't catch the end of the game, so I can't comment on that. It's just frustrating that we are having the best season we have had in forever and people do nothing but complain, Im not saying you're that guy, but when thats all you see after a loss its crazy to me.

:beerme:

Hillsdale87
08-24-2012, 12:11 PM
Ok, if you don't think Dusty was wrong last night, then you tell me how you can defend those 2 decisions. Tell me what I'm missing?

I'm guessing Dusty didn't want Marshall to throw more so that he could be available tonight in a more important game against the Cardinals. This loss was on the players.

Runner on 3rd, no outs; I don't care how bad you are, you need to get that runner in. Valdez's at bat was inexcusably horrible. Lecure should have been able to get the job done. He was facing the bottom of the order and should have been able to hold the lead. Last night was frustrating, but 2-2 against Halladay, Lee, Worley and Hamels is nothing to complain about

MrRedLegger
08-24-2012, 12:35 PM
Before this series we all were going to be happy with 1 win out of 4 games. We took 2. Thursdays game? Dusty gave key guys the night off, try your best, and we almost won. Phillies are out of contention, so get people rest for when the rising Cards come to town. Dusty bashers have a narrow single-game scope and poop all over games like last night. Dusty has a 162+ game scope. Everyone please relax.

Lefty Marshall came out because after Howard and Brown batted, who are both lefties, came Marberry, Kratz, and Rollins, righties (Rollins bats switch). When broken down, it's a move that is hard to argue with. With one out and a man on base with at least 2 righties to approach the plate, you go with righty LeCure. This whole series had a playoff feel, and Dusty managed accordingly, minus the rest to Phillips and Rolen.

We lost, it sucks, because the game was winable. Even with a lineup that made turned most people into negative nancys. Although we were only charged one error, there were multiple plays and at bats that Dusty had nothing to do with that didn't help our cause.

Watch the game, enjoy the season, root for the Reds.

Moosie52
08-24-2012, 01:17 PM
I can't believe they got out of the bases-loaded, no-out ninth inning. I figured they were toast and went to bed.

swaisuc
08-24-2012, 01:23 PM
One look at the box score is all I need to understand that.

With both Valdez and Cairo in the lineup, Hanigan bats 8th! Result: Hanigan gets walked 3 times!Still the weak lineup managed to score 3 runs against Hamel. But... Dusty mismanages the bullpen. On a night when Chapman and Broxton are both unavailable and he's shorthanded, Dusty decides to pull Marshall out early. He was pitching well. The last hitter got the bat on a very good pitch and found a hole in the infield. Why pull Marshall, you're best available reliever, in a close game that could go extra innings when you don't have Broxton or Chapman waiting to clean up!!!

Are you trying to say that it's bad that batting 8th gets him walks? I'm not sure where you're going with that.

Stray
08-24-2012, 01:34 PM
Dusty obviously didn't manage last night as a must win game, because it wasn't. These next 3 count for 2 against the 2nd place team in the division and he wanted guys to have rest. We're in the middle of 34 games in 34 days, do you guys really want him to burn players out in August??

And Broxton wasn't unavailable, he was our closer last night. When he pulled Marshall it was to go with a righty vs. righty matchup. Two outs from getting to the 9th with the lead, if he leaves Marshall in to face a righty you guys blast him for that.

I think a lot of us hate Hanigan 8th, but Dusty's belief is that clearing the pitchers spot in the order is really important. He likes Hanigan there because it means our pitcher won't lead off innings too often. The real problem was Cairo and Valdez being unable to hit a ball hard.

Bottom line, we split in Philly and have a big lead with with 2nd place team coming to town tonight. Phillips got some rest, Rolen got some rest, and Chapman got some rest. If Lecure doesn't screw it up we win that game...but of course, Dusty was the one who gave up that 8th inning run lol.

jback76
08-24-2012, 01:47 PM
I think every game should be played as a must win until the day the division is clinched. If we come up one game short at the end of year, I will be irked! I've been waiting 22 years to get back to a WS. I've got more time invested in this team the Dusty has.

P.E.R#14
08-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Neither Broxton or Chapman were unavailable.

This loss dropped us to (wait for it) 10-3 in our last thirteen. This is a game played where Cueto gets into tough situations, throws over 100 pitches in 5 1/3, no Votto, Phillips or Rolen and we take Cole Hamels and the Phillies into extra innings and lose by one.

Yeah, tear the roof off because it's OVER! Fire Dusty, send Valdez to Alaska and shoot Cario in the face. It's late August and we're only leading our division by 7 games. Missing the playoffs at this point would be a historic collapse. Get over it. One game. 0.6% of the Reds' season.

Tired of the "if's." You aren't the manager, you don't have a say. Sit back and ENJOY the best season in YEARS. No, I don't agree with everything that is done on the field, but griping about stupid $%^& you can't control is simply a waste of data storage on the internet. Grab a beer, sit in your Lazy Boy and hopefully we'll rip ten in a row off for the second time this year so I don't have to read this crap.

:rant over:

Go Reds!

Stray
08-24-2012, 01:59 PM
I think every game should be played as a must win until the day the division is clinched. If we come up one game short at the end of year, I will be irked! I've been waiting 22 years to get back to a WS. I've got more time invested in this team the Dusty has.

It's a long season. Manager's can't do that because they'll wear their teams out. Dusty has been giving everyone off days all year long, it's worked out to one of the best records in baseball.

CincyJim
08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Love this team...however, I cannot understand why Cairo is still on it. He doesn't hit, he doesn't field. He's become a scary player out there. Why not give the kid Soto a shot?

jback76
08-24-2012, 02:01 PM
As a true Reds fan i don't think I can truly sit back and enjoy a season until it's over. Wish I could I guess, but can't.

P.E.R#14
08-24-2012, 02:10 PM
Love this team...however, I cannot understand why Cairo is still on it. He doesn't hit, he doesn't field. He's become a scary player out there. Why not give the kid Soto a shot?

Not sure you using one of Soto's options is the best idea at this point of the season, mainly because we have some guy named Votto coming back (I hear he's good) and frazier has proven his worth at first. Cairo hasn't added anything to the team this year that a one armed batboy couldn't. Last night's fielding gaffes were inexplicable. I like the guy, but it's time to hang 'em up Miggy.


Go Reds!!

jback76
08-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Love this team...however, I cannot understand why Cairo is still on it. He doesn't hit, he doesn't field. He's become a scary player out there. Why not give the kid Soto a shot?

I don't think you'll ever see Soto given much of a chance with the Reds. He'll eventually be traded or grow old in Louisville.

OGB
08-24-2012, 02:27 PM
I agree with some in this thread that Dusty gets much undue criticism, but batting Hanigan behind Cairo and Valdez is inexplicable at best, rage inducing at worst. It makes me want to punch the tv while screaming, "how can someone be so ignorant/stubborn?"

P.E.R#14
08-24-2012, 02:43 PM
I agree with some in this thread that Dusty gets much undue criticism, but batting Hanigan behind Cairo and Valdez is inexplicable at best, rage inducing at worst. It makes me want to punch the tv while screaming, "how can someone be so ignorant/stubborn?"

Neither Cairo or Valdez should bat above 6th. So, if you move hanigan to 6th, you have Cairo, Valdez and the pitchers spot 7, 8, 9. That's much worse than 6, 7, Hanny.

Krawhitham
08-24-2012, 02:54 PM
One look at the box score is all I need to understand that.

With both Valdez and Cairo in the lineup, Hanigan bats 8th! Result: Hanigan gets walked 3 times!

Still the weak lineup managed to score 3 runs against Hamel. But... Dusty mismanages the bullpen. On a night when Chapman and Broxton are both unavailable and he's shorthanded, Dusty decides to pull Marshall out early. He was pitching well. The last hitter got the bat on a very good pitch and found a hole in the infield. Why pull Marshall, you're best available reliever, in a close game that could go extra innings when you don't have Broxton or Chapman waiting to clean up!!!


If he gets blamed for this lose does he get credit for the 76 wins?

They lost because the Phillies batted .359 for the game with a .444 OBP

MrRedLegger
08-24-2012, 03:11 PM
If he gets blamed for this lose does he get credit for the 76 wins?

They lost because the Phillies batted .359 for the game with a .444 OBP

At times supporting Dusty can be a lost and forgotten cause on this forum. I'm with you.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Can anybody tell me why have Paul,a guy who is on fire this month, bunt with 2 guys coming up with a high number of strikeouts in Cozart and Stubbs?

That was insane!

jback76
08-24-2012, 03:31 PM
Can anybody tell me why have Paul,a guy who is on fire this month, bunt with 2 guys coming up with a high number of strikeouts in Cozart and Stubbs?

That was insane!

Yeah, I was scratching my head on that move myself.

jback76
08-24-2012, 03:37 PM
If he gets blamed for this lose does he get credit for the 76 wins?

They lost because the Phillies batted .359 for the game with a .444 OBP

I agree that Dusty deserves credit for some of the Reds success this year. But I will also be among the angry mob with torches in hand that run him out of town if we fail to win the division this year!:D

texasdave
08-24-2012, 03:44 PM
Joe Morgan, Rose's Cincinnati teammate, knew him well.


"Pete's what every player ought to be," said the future broadcasting great. "In Pete's mind, every game is a World Series game. I wish everyone had Pete's attitude toward the game. And it's a thrill just to be on the same field with him."

CincyJim
08-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Not sure you using one of Soto's options is the best idea at this point of the season, mainly because we have some guy named Votto coming back (I hear he's good) and frazier has proven his worth at first. Cairo hasn't added anything to the team this year that a one armed batboy couldn't. Last night's fielding gaffes were inexplicable. I like the guy, but it's time to hang 'em up Miggy.


Go Reds!!


Soto is on the 40-man roster as of the end of the 2011 season, and as such is optional as many times as they'd like for the rest of this season, plus the next two. It's an option period, not a finite number of option moves. I don't see any reason whey you wouldn't bring up one of your top 5 prospects to play when you need him the most.

MrRedLegger
08-24-2012, 03:55 PM
Can anybody tell me why have Paul,a guy who is on fire this month, bunt with 2 guys coming up with a high number of strikeouts in Cozart and Stubbs?

That was insane!

Despite how hot anyone is hitting, the success rate of advancing the batter on a sac bunt is much higher than swinging for a hit. All we needed was a run, so the bunt was ordered.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2012, 03:59 PM
Despite how hot anyone is hitting, the success rate of advancing the batter on a sac bunt is much higher than swinging for a hit. All we needed was a run, so the bunt was ordered.

I respectfully don't buy that man. Like Herm Edwards said,You play to win the game and not try horse ----!

MrRedLegger
08-24-2012, 04:11 PM
I respectfully don't buy that man. Like Herm Edwards said,You play to win the game and not try horse ----!

I doubted it too and researched a bit. This article (http://www.billjamesonline.com/bunting_for_a_hit/) breaks it down. As far as the bunter getting on base, averages are very crappy. Advancing the runner has a very high success rate. I'm just trying to empathize with the situation: no outs, late in the game, we need one run, man on first, lets get him into scoring position with the method of highest success.

PumpFak3First
08-24-2012, 04:25 PM
Getting guys rest before a huge series is so dumb! LMAO!

Dusty thinking long term some people think short term. It is what it is.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 04:33 PM
Neither Cairo or Valdez should bat above 6th. So, if you move hanigan to 6th, you have Cairo, Valdez and the pitchers spot 7, 8, 9. That's much worse than 6, 7, Hanny.

Disagree. Just look what Philadelphia pitchers did all night with Hanigan. 3 walks? With Cairo and Valdez hitting in front of him no one was on base. With the pitching hitting behind him, no threat. They had no reason to pitch to Hanigan which took a reliable bat out of the lineup. It left the scoring up to 1 - 5 in the order. If you bat Hanigan 6th, then the pitcher has to get thru 1 - 6. I don't understand Dusty's logic of using Hanigan 8th just to make sure the pitcher can make the last out instead of leading off the next inning. You're going to sacrifice a potential scoring opportunity in the present inning just so the pitcher doesn't lead off the next inning? Look at the other batting orders around the league and find me another manager who thinks that way.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 04:43 PM
To me it's a 1 game deal having those guys bat in the lineup like that. It doesn't happen often. I said in another thread that to to me you rest your guys against teams like the Phillies who aren't in the division and then come rested for the Cardinals. It's the Cards who are chasing us, not the Phillies. As for the pitching moves, I didn't catch the end of the game, so I can't comment on that. It's just frustrating that we are having the best season we have had in forever and people do nothing but complain, Im not saying you're that guy, but when thats all you see after a loss its crazy to me.

:beerme:

Again, I'm not complaining about resting Phillips and Rolen and having Cairo and Valdez both in the lineup. I get it that it's a long season and you want your better players to be paced and rested in August. What I'm not accepting is batting Hanigan 8th in that lineup and effectively taking 1 of your few reliable bats out of potential run producing situations. It's unexplainable logic. Someone suggested he pulled Marshall because he didn't want him to throw too many pitches and wanted to save him for St Louis. Maybe that's a good reason. I can accept that. But in general if you're not going to use Broxton or Chapman, I'd rather lose with Marshall on the mound than put Lecure in a tight situation like that.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2012, 05:17 PM
I doubted it too and researched a bit. This article (http://www.billjamesonline.com/bunting_for_a_hit/) breaks it down. As far as the bunter getting on base, averages are very crappy. Advancing the runner has a very high success rate. I'm just trying to empathize with the situation: no outs, late in the game, we need one run, man on first, lets get him into scoring position with the method of highest success.

I admit it's usually a good move to make,HOWEVER both Cozart and Stubbs have a high strikeout rate and CAN NOT produce under pressure at least not yet!

dubc47834
08-24-2012, 05:43 PM
As a true Reds fan i don't think I can truly sit back and enjoy a season until it's over. Wish I could I guess, but can't.

So those of us enjoying the season arent true reds fans? IDIOTIC

texasdave
08-24-2012, 06:19 PM
So those of us enjoying the season arent true reds fans? IDIOTIC

And those that lodge legitimate complaints about the lineup, etc aren't enjoying the season? IDIOTIC.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 06:55 PM
Well said, TexasDave

EMAW
08-24-2012, 07:00 PM
The Baker Bashers are pathetic! Why would Dusty want to stick around with scumbag "fans" like these bashers? The Reds franchise was awful for a long time, now looking at their second division title in three years and all these morons do is gripe.

Carin4Narron
08-24-2012, 07:33 PM
I wasn't trying to bash Baker. Other managers have bunted at the wrong time. It isn't just Baker who gets mental doing that.

jback76
08-24-2012, 08:18 PM
It's not called Bashing anyway, it's called being critical. Which is what these threads are for! Otherwise you're just being a cheerleader with no opinion. Dusty and many of our players deserve a little criticism from time to time.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2012, 08:22 PM
The Baker Bashers are pathetic! Why would Dusty want to stick around with scumbag "fans" like these bashers? The Reds franchise was awful for a long time, now looking at their second division title in three years and all these morons do is gripe.

"bashing and griping" is what you just did. It's making emotional comments not based in fact.

Specific and substantive criticism and questioning of specific managerial decisions is not bashing/griping. The reds are winning because they have a talented team. Walt should be credited with putting the team together. Dusty should be credited for his motivational skills and mentoring of young players.

New York Red
08-25-2012, 02:26 PM
It never fails, something doesn't go right...blame Dusty!!!! Something goes right...it's in spite of Dusty. For the Dusty haters, you better get used to him being around because he's probly gonna get extended...and rightfully so!!!
There are 10-12 games a year that Dusty obviously doesn't put a lot of importance on. Even the biggest Dusty supporter should be able to admit that. Based on the lineup, last night was another one of those games. For him to do that in the first game of the biggest series of the year, is mindboggling to me. But with Dusty, we're used to it.

Who Dey Time
08-25-2012, 02:37 PM
There are 10-12 games a year that Dusty obviously doesn't put a lot of importance on. Even the biggest Dusty supporter should be able to admit that. Based on the lineup, last night was another one of those games. For him to do that in the first game of the biggest series of the year, is mindboggling to me. But with Dusty, we're used to it.

All of the regular 8 started last night. What in the world are you talking about?

WDE
08-25-2012, 02:41 PM
Geez, everybody needs to lay off the Dusty hate. I love Dusty, and I think he has been great for this Reds organization. All he has done is win us an NL Central and hopefully about to win us another one. Apparently, that is not good enough for some of us here.

New York Red
08-25-2012, 05:55 PM
All of the regular 8 started last night. What in the world are you talking about?
My mistake. I got the last two games mixed up. I stand by the rest though.

jback76
08-25-2012, 08:58 PM
Let me be the first to give Dusty a pass for the day. Although Stubbs needs a couple of days off.

PumpFak3First
08-25-2012, 09:00 PM
Dusty has to be the only manager in the history of baseball to get crucified so much by his own fan base after not only keeping this team in 1st place when Votto went down, but extending the lead in the division. This team could have easily packed their bags and fallen off a cliff with Votto not in the lineup but they didn't, and if some of you don't want to give Dusty credit for A HELL OF A JOB so far this season then you will never be a fan of Dusty and at this point you're holding a grudge.

Dusty could win the division, lose in the World Series yes I said lose and some of you would be calling for his head! True story, if we were to make the World Series and lose Dusty would get all of the blame. He'd get 0 credit for helping us get there though because that's how it works at least with this fan base and this manager.

UPRedsFan
08-25-2012, 09:16 PM
All of the Dusty defenders are missing the point. Give me an argument for why it's better to bat Hanigan 8th when you have Valdez and Cairo in the lineup. You can't. The results of that game speak for themselves. It allowed the Phillies to take Hanigan's bat out of the lineup. They walked him 3 times! Is Dusty good in other areas of the game? Yes. Has he held the team together without Votto? Of course he should get some credit for that. But he makes some decisions that defy logic and that you cannot defend.

dubc47834
08-25-2012, 09:58 PM
All of the Dusty defenders are missing the point. Give me an argument for why it's better to bat Hanigan 8th when you have Valdez and Cairo in the lineup. You can't. The results of that game speak for themselves. It allowed the Phillies to take Hanigan's bat out of the lineup. They walked him 3 times! Is Dusty good in other areas of the game? Yes. Has he held the team together without Votto? Of course he should get some credit for that. But he makes some decisions that defy logic and that you cannot defend.

Thats the thing tho...every manager makes those moves that make you go hmmmm. Does Dusty make more than most...sure, but he has won wherever he has managed. I know people will always question Dusty and Im cool with that...just give the man credit to when he makes smart moves.

xsteve1
08-25-2012, 11:10 PM
The best thing any manager can do is keep a happy clubhouse. Dusty does that better than anybody. How are people still ripping him. 26 over, while everybody else gave up on Rolen he stuck with him. No Votto. Really mind boggling the crap he takes.

PumpFak3First
08-25-2012, 11:59 PM
All of the Dusty defenders are missing the point. Give me an argument for why it's better to bat Hanigan 8th when you have Valdez and Cairo in the lineup. You can't. The results of that game speak for themselves. It allowed the Phillies to take Hanigan's bat out of the lineup. They walked him 3 times! Is Dusty good in other areas of the game? Yes. Has he held the team together without Votto? Of course he should get some credit for that. But he makes some decisions that defy logic and that you cannot defend.

Give me an argument for being in 1st place, 26 games over .500 and in great position down the stretch. GIVE ME 1! Your silly ZOMG he didn't do something in the lineup I agree with banter is ridiculous if you look at the big picture which most Dusty haters refuse to do. They cling onto one little thing and go bonkers on it.

OldCat
08-26-2012, 12:00 AM
All of the Dusty defenders are missing the point. Give me an argument for why it's better to bat Hanigan 8th when you have Valdez and Cairo in the lineup. You can't. The results of that game speak for themselves. It allowed the Phillies to take Hanigan's bat out of the lineup. They walked him 3 times! Is Dusty good in other areas of the game? Yes. Has he held the team together without Votto? Of course he should get some credit for that. But he makes some decisions that defy logic and that you cannot defend.

Sure I can - if Hanigan gets on with less than 2 out, the pitcher bunts him over and we have a runner in scoring position for the top of the order.

Who Dey Time
08-26-2012, 12:09 AM
Sure I can - if Hanigan gets on with less than 2 out, the pitcher bunts him over and we have a runner in scoring position for the top of the order.

Also if Hanigan gets on with 2 out at worst he turns the lineup over for the next inning.

Look, it's very plain and simple.....if you are criticizing Dusty at this point then you are just an idiot. It really it that easy. This has easily been one of the best Reds seasons in the past 25+ years and he is one of the main reasons why.

mu4103
08-26-2012, 12:18 AM
Getting guys rest before a huge series is so dumb! LMAO!

Dusty thinking long term some people think short term. It is what it is.

Man, I can't wait to see what Stubbs has in store with Dusty thinking long term!

Ironman92
08-26-2012, 12:25 AM
Stubbs doesn't need rest....he needs trade rumors and Heisey 3 hit games.

Who Dey Time
08-26-2012, 12:28 AM
Stubbs doesn't need rest....he needs trade rumors and Heisey 3 hit games.

Heisey will be traded before Stubbs. Right or wrong this is fact. Hell, he was almost gone prior to spring training.

Ironman92
08-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Heisey will be traded before Stubbs. Right or wrong this is fact. Hell, he was almost gone prior to spring training.

.....Stubbs will never be a 4th OF with Dusty though. Luddy and Bruce being productive and eventually Hamilton will have to be up here. Only so long can you keep such dynamo in the minors....if Hamilton is doing this again next year and Stubbs is the same....the Reds will be forced to get Hamilton in there....but if Luddy isn't being great Dusty would play Hamilton in LF because nothing can replace Drew Gehrig.

UPRedsFan
08-26-2012, 05:45 PM
None of you have given a logical argument for batting Hanigan 8th in that game behind Cairo and Valdez. Batting him 8th behind Frazier and Rolen is fine. But on that day when Rolen and Phillips were out of the lineup to rest and you had Cairo and Valdez in, you don't bat Hanigan 8th! He got walked 3 times and the Phillies took his bat out of the game.

The fact that the Reds are in first place doesn't mean we shouldn't question anything Dusty does. And resorting to name calling for those who give specific criticism or questions is a bit childish and just proves you can't come up with logic to debate the point.

dubc47834
08-27-2012, 01:34 PM
None of you have given a logical argument for batting Hanigan 8th in that game behind Cairo and Valdez. Batting him 8th behind Frazier and Rolen is fine. But on that day when Rolen and Phillips were out of the lineup to rest and you had Cairo and Valdez in, you don't bat Hanigan 8th! He got walked 3 times and the Phillies took his bat out of the game.

The fact that the Reds are in first place doesn't mean we shouldn't question anything Dusty does. And resorting to name calling for those who give specific criticism or questions is a bit childish and just proves you can't come up with logic to debate the point.

Who called anyone names????

panzecaz03
08-27-2012, 04:12 PM
Who else does Dusty have that he can play and is good.. no one, it's not really his fault, he is just working with what he's got. If anything blame management and complain to them about getting better players..

Larkin88
08-27-2012, 07:49 PM
I think a manager's responsibilities in no particular order are:

1) Managing the clubhouse and attitudes of its players over what is (in my opinon) the most mentally grueling professional season there is

2) Managing the game itself, be it through lineup construction, bullpen usage, playing towards individual player tendencies, etc.

I have always contended that Dusty Baker is perhaps the best manager in the National League as it relates to the former point. But I also think that his game management is, at times, a little confusing or at the very least uninspired as it relates to the second point.

At some point though, you have to question which facet is the biggest driver to a team's success. And if Dusty is able to do point 1) well enough to offset his deficiencies in point 2), I'm note sure I'd call it "winning in spite of him."

Perhaps if he was a more progressive baseball strategist, we might be looking at a few more wins on the year. But enabling his players to be comfortable and a part of the game plan (even when the get-away lineups get frustrating) is something I give Dusty a lot of credit for as it relates to making it through the Big 162.

UPRedsFan
08-27-2012, 08:59 PM
Who called anyone names????

Several on this thread have resorted to name calling if you want to read back through it. Not worth listing them. I think the last post sums Dusty up pretty well. Clubhouse management - great job. Game management - very questionable.

Australian Red
08-27-2012, 10:18 PM
Same old story in any sport the Manager gets blamed for loses but never gets credit for the wins.