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buckeyenut
08-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Let's play a little game of what if.

What if Billy Hamilton were to come up prior to Aug 31? How would you handle him during September if you are Dusty Baker?

What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 and can stick at SS? What do you do with infield? Who do you move/sit to where and what is your lineup?

What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 but can't play SS? Do you teach him CF in majors?

What if Billy Hamilton isn't ready to start 2013 but looks like he will be ready by all star break? How do you manage your offseason, knowing you need a spot for him at some point?

What if you could slot in Hamilton when and where you wanted? What is your perfect situation for him and for the Reds?

What if you got a trade offer for Billy Hamilton? What hole would you look to fill at ML level? What would you have to get back to give him up?

Scrap Irony
08-26-2012, 10:45 AM
Let's play a little game of what if.

What if Billy Hamilton were to come up prior to Aug 31? How would you handle him during September if you are Dusty Baker?

He'd be a pinch runner and sacrifice bunter only.



What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 and can stick at SS? What do you do with infield? Who do you move/sit to where and what is your lineup?

Cozart gets dealt. I'm guessing someone would pay handsomely for a young, capable SS with plus power and defense. Tampa, IMO, might be willing to fork over, say, a David Price for Cozart and Corcino. Oakland may be willing to give up someone like Cespedes. If not them, the Dodgers would be a nice target.

Gregorius becomes the backup (unless, of course, someone's willing to give up a ton for him, too).



What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 but can't play SS? Do you teach him CF in majors?

If his bat is for real, yeah. Deal with the growing pains. If his bat is for real, he can't be worse than Drew Stubbs.



What if Billy Hamilton isn't ready to start 2013 but looks like he will be ready by all star break? How do you manage your offseason, knowing you need a spot for him at some point?

I'd dangle Cozart at the All-Star break or thereabouts for prospects or a whatever the major league team needs at that point. Other, quality teams will need SS and be willing to pay.



What if you could slot in Hamilton when and where you wanted? What is your perfect situation for him and for the Reds?

Hamilton becomes the leadoff hitter and .400 obp bat the team desperately neeeds. As a bonus, he steals 100 bases or so and totally disrupts the other team, completely changing the fabric of how teams prepare for the Reds. Phillips slots into the second spot, murdering fastballs thrown to keep Hamilton from taking extra bases. As a result, he has a career year in terms of both power and, because of pitchouts and distraction, obp. Votto cleans up with an MVP year.

As a result of Hamilton's remarkable abilities, Cozart is dealt-- along with SP Mike Leake and SP prospect Daniel Corcino-- for CF Wil Myers this offseason.



What if you got a trade offer for Billy Hamilton? What hole would you look to fill at ML level? What would you have to get back to give him up?

Everyone is available at the right price. I'd look to CF first, last, and foremost. (I believe he'll eventually be that guy, so it'd take a lot to give him up.) I'd take a cheap, productive major league CF or a top ten prospect for him. Though pitching is always at a premium, Cincinnati has at least six legitimate candidates for next season already here. Five of those should be in Cincinnati for multiple seasons-- until at least 2015. There are also at least two SP candidates fairly close on the farm. In short, the urgency to find pitching isn't there. Same with the rest of the offense. Frazier can move to 3B to replace Rolen or to LF to replace Ludwick. (His versatility is key, IMO, to the team.) With the signings of Votto and Phillips, the Reds are pretty much set at most key positions aside from CF. Which, again, is a hole of suckitude.

Wonderful Monds
08-26-2012, 01:47 PM
To the above, I thought the Ress should've traded Cozart to the Rays (but for Ben Zobrist), but was then reminded that they have Hak Ju Lee on the way. They would likely not want him.

MississippiRed
08-26-2012, 07:14 PM
Good story in our largest Mississippi newspaper today about Hamilton:
Clarion-Ledger Article (http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20120826/SPORTS02/208260406?source=nletter-top5&nclick_check=1)

757690
08-26-2012, 07:36 PM
If his bat is for real, he can't be worse than Drew Stubbs.

Are you sure about that?

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Milwaukee%2BBrewers%2Bv%2BCincinnati%2BReds%2BHqnj 3tvoiDFl.jpg

http://graneyandthepig.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/coreypatterson.jpg

buckeyenut
08-26-2012, 07:46 PM
Let's play a little game of what if.

What if Billy Hamilton were to come up prior to Aug 31? How would you handle him during September if you are Dusty Baker?

What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 and can stick at SS? What do you do with infield? Who do you move/sit to where and what is your lineup?

What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 but can't play SS? Do you teach him CF in majors?

What if Billy Hamilton isn't ready to start 2013 but looks like he will be ready by all star break? How do you manage your offseason, knowing you need a spot for him at some point?

What if you could slot in Hamilton when and where you wanted? What is your perfect situation for him and for the Reds?

What if you got a trade offer for Billy Hamilton? What hole would you look to fill at ML level? What would you have to get back to give him up?

For me, I cut Cairo and bring Hamilton Aug 31. Then I give him some starts at SS to give Cozart a rest and give him a couple of starts in CF just to see. I think he could be the biggest thing this team is missing, a true top of the order OBP presence and could be a game breaker in the playoffs.

If Billy can stick at SS, I actually think long and hard about moving Cozart to second and Phillips to 3B with Frazier in LF. with Billy's original timing of 2014, this works a lot better as Branden's contract is still there, but he likely is losing a step or two. I think Branden could fill Rolen's shoes nicely for the life of his contract. But it might be a touch early to make that move. So dealing Cozart might work out better if I could get the type of deal scrap describes.

buckeyenut
08-26-2012, 07:50 PM
Hit the button too early. Here are rest of my answers.

If Billy produces at plate, I would be happy to let him learn on the job in CF. Given the way Cozart has played, this might be the ideal fit for the reds. Him in CF becomes very potent for this offense.

Personally, due to the fit with this team and our needs and the fact he is cost controlled for 6 years, I don't trade him unless I can get one of top 20 players in MLB. I know his value isn't that, but to this team, he is a perfect fit so he has more value to us.

redsfandan
08-27-2012, 07:56 AM
Let's play a little game of what if.

What if Billy Hamilton were to come up prior to Aug 31? How would you handle him during September if you are Dusty Baker?

I'd probably use him too much. WAAAAAAAAYYYYY too much.



What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 and can stick at SS? What do you do with infield? Who do you move/sit to where and what is your lineup?


I'd keep Hamilton in the minors until at least June/July. Work on all the rough edges. Defense, hitting, baserunning. But, I'd also make sure he's got some games at 2nd, center, and left. That would just improve his versatility and lower the risk of bringing him up. Not all rookies take off right away. If Billy doesn't take to the majors right away (as a major league shortstop) you could still use him as sort of a super utility guy (kinda like Frazier this year or Bip Roberts in '92). Plus, you'd still have Cozart. If both guys are doing well that's a GOOD thing. Make sure they both can be utilized as much as possible. A good bench is very important in the 2nd half of the season. The Reds could wait until the offseason to deal Cozart. There would still be interest.



What if Billy Hamilton is the real deal in 2013 but can't play SS? Do you teach him CF in majors?
Yes.


What if Billy Hamilton isn't ready to start 2013 but looks like he will be ready by all star break? How do you manage your offseason, knowing you need a spot for him at some point?
No change. The spot will be there if he continues to produce offensively and improves defensively.

What if you could slot in Hamilton when and where you wanted? What is your perfect situation for him and for the Reds?

Is that a trick question? lol

What if you got a trade offer for Billy Hamilton? What hole would you look to fill at ML level? What would you have to get back to give him up?
If a legit centerfielder (a really good one) is possible then I'd listen. Otherwise, many, many prospects (including 2 that are well thought of).

mattfeet
08-27-2012, 08:41 AM
I have a question for folks here...

We all regard Stubbs as an above-average to elite defensive CF. However, in my time watching him, he gets this rating due to his speed alone. It seems to me that while Stubbs can cover more ground, he lets up on close plays at the wall and that he might need to dive for. I really think that Heisey and Bruce are better defenders, but they just lack the one thing you can't teach in speed, compared to Stubbs. I know Bruce has had some gaffs in RF this year, but you can't argue that's he's made some outstanding plays on the wall since he's been with the Reds. Likewise, Heisey has made some very good diving catches. Stubbs' saving grace is his speed, which a lot of times takes away the necessity of a dive, but I just don't think he's as athletic as some others, especially Bruce.

Should we decide to move Bruce to CF, I really don't think we'll notice a HUGE dropoff in defensive ability. Bruce has a plus arm which might partially negate the dropoff in speed between him and Stubbs.

Can anyone here who has a better eye comment on this?

-Matt

Chip R
08-27-2012, 08:53 AM
I have a question for folks here...

We all regard Stubbs as an above-average to elite defensive CF. However, in my time watching him, he gets this rating due to his speed alone. It seems to me that while Stubbs can cover more ground, he lets up on close plays at the wall and that he might need to dive for. I really think that Heisey and Bruce are better defenders, but they just lack the one thing you can't teach in speed, compared to Stubbs. I know Bruce has had some gaffs in RF this year, but you can't argue that's he's made some outstanding plays on the wall since he's been with the Reds. Likewise, Heisey has made some very good diving catches. Stubbs' saving grace is his speed, which a lot of times takes away the necessity of a dive, but I just don't think he's as athletic as some others, especially Bruce.

Should we decide to move Bruce to CF, I really don't think we'll notice a HUGE dropoff in defensive ability. Bruce has a plus arm which might partially negate the dropoff in speed between him and Stubbs.

Can anyone here who has a better eye comment on this?

-Matt

Don't we already have a thread about this?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98076

redsfandan
08-27-2012, 08:54 AM
Bruce is a little underrated defensively, imo. What's unusual is that we have 2 guys in Heisey and Bruce that could play center but, mostly, don't. Bruce is likely set in right but2013 will answer alot of questions about Heisey, Stubbs, and Hamilton.

mattfeet
08-27-2012, 09:39 AM
Don't we already have a thread about this?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98076

My bad, I thought it pertained here as well since we're talking about Hamilton who MIGHT be moved to CF. Even if he's never played there, he has MORE speed than Stubbs, which Im saying is Stubbs' greatest ally. It might not take Hamilton long to become on par defensively with Stubbs.

-Matt

REDREAD
08-27-2012, 09:45 AM
In my dream world, Hamilton sticks at SS.
If he's ready in 2013, I have him and Cozart share the job at least for 1/2 season then trade Cozart (who would bring a nice haul, maybe even an upgrade in CF?)

There's no way I trade Cozart though until I see Hamilton producing.. I would use Hamilton in a Frasier type role until I know he's going to stick.

Trading Cozart and then having Hamilton fall on his face would be a disaster.
I don't want to go back to having a hole at SS (or CF if Hamilton goes there).

I wouldn't trade Hamilton for any realistic offer we're going to get for him.
Of course, there's the hypothetical "offer you can't refuse" which would be considered..but realistically.. I don't see anything worth trading Hamilton for.

Degenerate39
08-27-2012, 10:53 AM
In my dream world, Hamilton sticks at SS.
If he's ready in 2003, I have him and Cozart share the job at least for 1/2 season then trade Cozart (who would bring a nice haul, maybe even an upgrade in CF?)

There's no way I trade Cozart though until I see Hamilton producing.. I would use Hamilton in a Frasier type role until I know he's going to stick.

Trading Cozart and then having Hamilton fall on his face would be a disaster.
I don't want to go back to having a hole at SS (or CF if Hamilton goes there).

I wouldn't trade Hamilton for any realistic offer we're going to get for him.
Of course, there's the hypothetical "offer you can't refuse" which would be considered..but realistically.. I don't see anything worth trading Hamilton for.

He must have a DeLorean

REDREAD
08-27-2012, 11:23 AM
He must have a DeLorean

:lol: I guess I am getting too old, trapped in the past.

medford
08-27-2012, 01:32 PM
Reds call up Hamilton on the 31st:

I'd use him primarily as a pinch runner, let him get his feet wet. If a game was in hand/out of reach and he hadn't been used yet, I'd get him a handful of pinch hit apperances. If/when the division, wild card and/or seeding was finalized, I'd get him a couple of starts at SS. I'd also have him working on shagging flyballs in the outfield as a potential transition to CF.

in the offseason, I'd have him in Arizona working on CF defense. I'd invite him to camp in 2013 with the plan of sending him to AAA to continue his progression to CF. He's put up solid numbers at the plate, but he's not a finished product yet, he needs at least another half a season of minor league at bats. If he proves he's capable of handling CF in AAA I'd bring him up to the majors and allow him to fill in wherever they could, CF, LF or SS. He he shows he's ready for more playing time, CF in 2014 is his to claim if he can prove himself worthy.

I'm in no rush to trade Zach Cozart, he's cheap, productive and under team control for another 5 seasons beyond this one. With the extension to Votto, Phillips, Bruce and Cueto, the potential extensions to Latos, Leake or Bailey, having guys like Mes, Frazier & Cozart under team control at a realitively cheap price for the next 5 seasons is huge for the payroll flexability of this franchise. Imagine how much money could be spent elsewhere or used to pay future years of Votto's contract if 3b, SS, Catcher and CF were all manned by guys who haven't hit arbitration yet?

Big Klu
08-27-2012, 07:39 PM
He must have a DeLorean

He can already get to 88 MPH.

Big Klu
08-27-2012, 10:00 PM
nm

Reds Fanatic
08-29-2012, 04:58 PM
the latest on Hamilton from Fay's blog today. It sounds like at this point they are kind of leaning against calling Hamilton up:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/29/jocketty-on-votto-callups-hamilton/


Jocketty said no final call has been made on Billy Hamilton.

“I’m going to go watch him this weekend,” Jocketty said, “but probably not.”

The article also mentions the Reds will announce September callups on Friday.

They expect to have 3 players called up Saturday and another 3 on Tuesday which would be the day after the minor league regular season ends.

Brutus
08-29-2012, 05:07 PM
the latest on Hamilton from Fay's blog today. It sounds like at this point they are kind of leaning against calling Hamilton up:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/29/jocketty-on-votto-callups-hamilton/



The article also mentions the Reds will announce September callups on Friday.

They expect to have 3 players called up Saturday and another 3 on Tuesday which would be the day after the minor league regular season ends.

I imagine it's a foregone conclusion Votto will be one of those three on Saturday, since that seemed to be the plan entering the week.

REDREAD
08-29-2012, 05:25 PM
I imagine it's a foregone conclusion Votto will be one of those three on Saturday, since that seemed to be the plan entering the week.

Yep, and Logan is probably the second one.
Mes is the third, I 'm guessing

Brutus
08-29-2012, 05:35 PM
Yep, and Logan is probably the second one.
Mes is the third, I 'm guessing

I don't think they can call up Mesoraco for a few more days. I think Monday is the earliest. So he must be in the Tuesday batch.

Vottomatic
08-29-2012, 06:39 PM
What if.........Hamilton had been playing CF all season in the minors already? Hmmm.

757690
08-29-2012, 06:42 PM
Yep, and Logan is probably the second one.
Mes is the third, I 'm guessing

Guessing Votto, Ondrusek and Bray for Sat. Mes when he's eligible, and then Didi, HRod and Redmond when the Bat's season is over. Maybe Soto.

WebScorpion
08-30-2012, 04:26 AM
What if... They don't call him up, but have him play Center Field in the Arizona Fall League?

Put me in co-oach... I'm ready to play... Toda-ay. Look at me... I can be-e... Center Field! If Drew Stubbs doesn't see the writing on the wall, he's blind. ;)

redsfandan
08-30-2012, 06:19 AM
What if.........Hamilton had been playing CF all season in the minors already? Hmmm.

It would've been a mistake.

Vottomatic
08-30-2012, 07:56 AM
It would've been a mistake.

I disagree.

REDREAD
08-30-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't think they can call up Mesoraco for a few more days. I think Monday is the earliest. So he must be in the Tuesday batch.

Ok, thanks, I had the timeline wrong.

redsfandan
08-30-2012, 06:00 PM
I disagree.

I have a feeling your expectations of Hamilton aren't realistic. Eh, guess we can just agree to disagree.

Vottomatic
08-30-2012, 06:01 PM
I have a feeling your expectations of Hamilton aren't realistic. Eh, guess we can just agree to disagree.

Yet he's penciled in at CF for the AZL.

redsfandan
08-30-2012, 06:03 PM
Yet he's penciled in at CF for the AZL.

So?

WebScorpion
08-31-2012, 02:10 AM
So?I think his tryout in CF in the AFL is just that: a tryout. I think management is ready to acknowledge that Drew Stubbs may never be more than a great defensive center fielder. They see Hamilton as a candidate to replace his bat with something more productive while not losing too much, if any, on defense. But at this point it's still a possibility that needs to be investigated. I'm just happy that we can do these things in the minor leagues where they should be done and not be forced to experiment with our first place team. Much like the Cueto/Volquez situation in the past, it may come down to drive and desire...whichever one dedicates himself to true improvement every year will win out. Either way, the Reds win.
On the Cozart side, I think he gets a season or two to really put it all together before they start looking to upgrade him. He's got a nice glove and he shows flashes of being a superior bat at his position, he just needs to dedicate himself to becoming the best top of the order hitter he can be. The BRM was an offensive machine without good hitters at SS or CF. :dunno:

redsfandan
08-31-2012, 09:09 AM
I think his tryout in CF in the AFL is just that: a tryout. I think management is ready to acknowledge that Drew Stubbs may never be more than a great defensive center fielder. They see Hamilton as a candidate to replace his bat with something more productive while not losing too much, if any, on defense. But at this point it's still a possibility that needs to be investigated. I'm just happy that we can do these things in the minor leagues where they should be done and not be forced to experiment with our first place team. Much like the Cueto/Volquez situation in the past, it may come down to drive and desire...whichever one dedicates himself to true improvement every year will win out. Either way, the Reds win.

Right, Walt said on WLW the other day that there's a pretty good chance Hamilton will see some time in the outfield because the Reds want to get a better idea what their options are with him and a few other guys. I've got no problem with that. I think the AFL is the perfect opportunity for the Reds to just take a look.

I just didn't know what Vottomatic was getting at. It wouldn't have made sense to make Hamilton switch positions months ago, imo, cuz Hamilton at short is worth more. Why not give him some more time at short if he wants to stay at that position. But, it's not like he would've helped the major league club this season either way. That's just too ambitious.


On the Cozart side, I think he gets a season or two to really put it all together before they start looking to upgrade him. He's got a nice glove and he shows flashes of being a superior bat at his position, he just needs to dedicate himself to becoming the best top of the order hitter he can be. The BRM was an offensive machine without good hitters at SS or CF. :dunno:

Cozart could improve some but I'm not going to get my hopes up about how much he can improve. I'm not sure he'll ever be a 'good' top of the order hitter. But, I'm fine with him being the Reds shortstop until he starts becoming expensive.