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mikemo14
08-28-2012, 12:42 AM
Keep hearing about how good the Reds record is when Stubbs scores a run. What is our record when he strikes out more than once in a game, which happens to be just about every night.

HometownHero
08-28-2012, 12:45 AM
Probably not that bad since it happens so often with tonight being the 33rd time its happened.

mikemo14
08-28-2012, 01:01 AM
If he could just cut those down to once a game and make contact those other 33 times that would be at least 10 more runs scored.

Falcon7
08-28-2012, 01:33 AM
Banner night for Drew, only 2 k's, 1 HBP and a 6-3 ground out...
Sorry forgot the fly out, even better.

Krawhitham
08-28-2012, 03:10 AM
Keep hearing about how good the Reds record is when Stubbs scores a run. What is our record when he strikes out more than once in a game, which happens to be just about every night.

20-13

big boy
08-28-2012, 10:27 AM
redreporter.com (http://www.redreporter.com/) found eight reasons why the Stubbs stat is lame (http://www.redreporter.com/2012/8/25/3266905/red-reporter-gives-back-dont-be-an-idiot-18-game-capsule-7).

Old NDN
08-28-2012, 11:19 AM
Folks, we've beaten this topic (Stubbs) to death from multiple angles. No matter what he does, Baker will put his name on the lineup card and bat him 1-2. It seems most every analyst, pundit, and fan continue to question why, and Baker bristles at the criticism and digs his heels in even deeper.

jback76
08-28-2012, 11:30 AM
I see any long term solution coming this off season. And that long term solution is not Chris Heisey! I was hoping Stubbs would come around, because I like the guy and his speed, power combo, but he's not getting any better. Ever!

BungleBengals
08-28-2012, 12:47 PM
I do not think Stubbs nor Heisey is the answer. Granted that both of them have speed and both are decent defenders, but their lack of offensive production is terrible. Not to mention I have yet to see Stubbs dive to try to make a play, but instead gives the batter a single when he could have made a play on the ball. Heisey tries to dive, but completely misses the ball giving the batter a double.

I know Dusty has said it won't happen, but why not put Bruce in CF? He has already played there before and he can make the diving catch as we have seen a few times in RF. His arm will also add to CF as he could keep guys from tagging up on third. Now you can keep Ludwick and add Frazier to the OF and we have good offensive numbers while not dropping too far off from the defensive side.

Stray
08-28-2012, 01:45 PM
I do not think Stubbs nor Heisey is the answer. Granted that both of them have speed and both are decent defenders, but their lack of offensive production is terrible. Not to mention I have yet to see Stubbs dive to try to make a play, but instead gives the batter a single when he could have made a play on the ball. Heisey tries to dive, but completely misses the ball giving the batter a double.

I know Dusty has said it won't happen, but why not put Bruce in CF? He has already played there before and he can make the diving catch as we have seen a few times in RF. His arm will also add to CF as he could keep guys from tagging up on third. Now you can keep Ludwick and add Frazier to the OF and we have good offensive numbers while not dropping too far off from the defensive side.

I want to say Dusty recently said they would be trying Bruce in CF when Votto comes back. That could put Ludwick in RF and Frazier in LF. I don't think it would be an everyday thing though. When we have a flyball pitcher like Arroyo going I'd expect Stubbs to start for defense, and if we're on the road in a big outfield I'd expect Stubbs to start.

Long term the answer is hopefully Billy Hamilton. Short term we at least have some mixing and matching we can do when Votto returns.

texasdave
08-28-2012, 01:52 PM
The answer will never be Drew Stubbs no matter how long Dusty tries to pound that square peg into that round hole.

August:
Stubbs - 97 ABs - .515 OPS
Heisey - 29 ABs - .775 OPS

Keep pounding, Dusty.

BungleBengals
08-28-2012, 02:17 PM
7 straight Ks and something like 31 Ks in last 75 ABs for a 2 hole hitter....





....keep pounding Dusty!

jback76
08-28-2012, 02:23 PM
7 straight Ks and something like 31 Ks in last 75 ABs for a 2 hole hitter....





....keep pounding Dusty!
I think Dusty needs to use a bigger hammer or let someone else do the pounding.:D

HometownHero
08-28-2012, 02:35 PM
Drew Stubbs over his last 20 games

13-for-79 .165
4 walks to 33 Strike Outs for a .214 OBP
2 XBH for a .203 slugging percentage and a .417 OPS
6 runs and 3 RBI

MrRedLegger
08-28-2012, 03:36 PM
For what it's worth, since July 16th when Votto went down:

Stubbs is .247/.309/.387

In 150 at-bats, he's hit 21 singles, 4 2B, 1 3B and 5 HR. Struck out 53 times, stole 11 bases, been walked 13 times.

He's scored 28 runs with 18 RBI's.

Bold numbers indicate it's the most on the team for this stretch, italics indicates near the top. Although he has struck out a lot, his slash line isn't pathetic but it's not great. Average in my opinion with just a hint of power (OPS of nearly .700)

Despite his K rate which is of obvious concern, he is still contributing to this team which is hard to see without looking at the numbers. I'm not ready to get rid of him just yet.

BurgervilleBuck
08-28-2012, 03:45 PM
For what it's worth, since July 16th when Votto went down:

Stubbs is .247/.309/.387

In 150 at-bats, he's hit 21 singles, 4 2B, 1 3B and 5 HR. Struck out 53 times, stole 11 bases, been walked 13 times.

He's scored 28 runs with 18 RBI's.

Bold numbers indicate it's the most on the team for this stretch, italics indicates near the top. Although he has struck out a lot, his slash line isn't pathetic but it's not great. Average in my opinion with just a hint of power (OPS of nearly .700)

Despite his K rate which is of obvious concern, he is still contributing to this team which is hard to see without looking at the numbers. I'm not ready to get rid of him just yet.
I'm not either but keep in mind that those numbers are affected by the tear he went on around the trade deadline. He has since cooled off.

Defensively, he's capable. Offensively, he's not getting it done. Where's the harm in putting him down further in the lineup. Switch him and Hannigan and maybe there might be folks on base when Votto comes back to the plate.

BungleBengals
08-28-2012, 03:46 PM
I think a lot of Stubbs "great" number since the ASB are from that streak he had right before the trade deadline. His K rate is definitely very hurting to this team. I do not have the stats with me, but just from watching the games, it gets frustrating to see him look clueless as ever when he is AB with RISP. He has shown no change in his swing which I see as a sign of a guy who is unwilling to adapt. If he shortened his swing, or at least studied some film, you would think that he would be able to turn all his foul balls into hits. You would think he would go to Votto and get some tips. Wasn't there a stat that Votto only fouled down the first base line like 2-5 times over 3 years or something like that? Seems like he should be able to help Stubbs.

Old NDN
08-28-2012, 04:39 PM
I think a lot of Stubbs "great" number since the ASB are from that streak he had right before the trade deadline. His K rate is definitely very hurting to this team. I do not have the stats with me, but just from watching the games, it gets frustrating to see him look clueless as ever when he is AB with RISP. He has shown no change in his swing which I see as a sign of a guy who is unwilling to adapt. If he shortened his swing, or at least studied some film, you would think that he would be able to turn all his foul balls into hits. You would think he would go to Votto and get some tips. Wasn't there a stat that Votto only fouled down the first base line like 2-5 times over 3 years or something like that? Seems like he should be able to help Stubbs.

As much as he has struggled, I would think Stubbs has probably listened/ tried all these suggestions plus a bunch more. He just seems unable to make any adjustments to his offense.

IamRV
08-28-2012, 07:15 PM
Wonder if Cleveland would be willing to look at a swap of some type which included Stubbs and Brantley - or the Rockies and Fowler - or the Twins and Span?

Of course, none of that would happen until the offseason but still a guy can dream...

IamRV
08-28-2012, 07:20 PM
For what it's worth, since July 16th when Votto went down:

Stubbs is .247/.309/.387

In 150 at-bats, he's hit 21 singles, 4 2B, 1 3B and 5 HR. Struck out 53 times, stole 11 bases, been walked 13 times.

He's scored 28 runs with 18 RBI's.

Bold numbers indicate it's the most on the team for this stretch, italics indicates near the top. Although he has struck out a lot, his slash line isn't pathetic but it's not great. Average in my opinion with just a hint of power (OPS of nearly .700)

Despite his K rate which is of obvious concern, he is still contributing to this team which is hard to see without looking at the numbers. I'm not ready to get rid of him just yet.

All that's fine and dandy but I can't believe those runs scored numbers wouldn't be a LOT better if he were on the base paths more instead of walking back to the dugout. That's the thing the believers dismiss.

Trajinous
08-28-2012, 07:31 PM
This could be avoided if Dusty used Stubbs correctly.

Stubbs is streaky, like Bruce, and has the ability to pull this team up single handily. He salvaged two games in Houston to keep the eventual 11-game winning streak alive. He also made a great catch in the top of the 9th that saved a run, against a team I can't remember. That game the Reds won at the bottom of the inning.

I believe Stubb is average over a long enough period of time. If Dusty would just sit him more and play Heisey/Bruce during his slumps, the Reds would have an extra win or two. The problem is once Stubbs goes on a streak, Dusty says,"See! You gotta stick with it." Which is backwards thinking in my opinion.

Bob Sheed
08-29-2012, 10:46 AM
Until Stubbs agrees to shorten his swing and quick trying to crush the ball every AB, I'd bat him 9th. Especially when Leake or Arroyo is pitching.

Agreed that it is absolutely insane the Reds two lowest OBPs are batting 1 and 2.

IamRV
08-29-2012, 02:17 PM
...
Agreed that it is absolutely insane the Reds two lowest OBPs are batting 1 and 2.

Insane?

It's nothing short of criminal. Were I Votto or anyone else batting 3, 4 or 5 I'd sue the Reds and Dusty for criminal neglect and malicious harm.

Who Dey Time
08-29-2012, 02:22 PM
Insane?

It's nothing short of criminal. Were I Votto or anyone else batting 3, 4 or 5 I'd sue the Reds and Dusty for criminal neglect and malicious harm.

And the judge would take a peek at the standings and laugh you out of court.

dubc47834
08-29-2012, 02:51 PM
I think Dusty needs to use a bigger hammer or let someone else do the pounding.:D

I wish I could do some pounding...on some of my fellow Sundeck members. WE ALL KNOW THAT STUBBS SUCKS AND IS GOING TO PLAY...get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!

dubc47834
08-29-2012, 02:52 PM
And the judge would take a peek at the standings and laugh you out of court.

Hilarious!!!!!
:lol::laugh::lol::laugh::lol::lol:

malcontent
08-29-2012, 03:11 PM
As much as he has struggled, I would think Stubbs has probably listened/ tried all these suggestions plus a bunch more. He just seems unable to make any adjustments to his offense.
He's too stubborn or maybe not too bright....or both.

Take last night for instance. He finally attempts to bunt...but against a LHP, when he actually hits lefties at a decent clip.

He should be bunting regularly against RHP. He can't usually touch them and they're not in a good position to field bunts down the 3B line.

But Stubbs sucks as a bunter largely, I imagine, because he sees himself as a power guy and doesn't really practice bunting.

That excuse he made a month or so ago about how all the planets had to be aligned to bunt successfully was some vintage stuff....and patently ridiculous.

Red in Atl
08-29-2012, 08:48 PM
I think Stubbs is just amazingly dumb. The stereotype of a "Dumb jock" exists for a reason. He will be gone in the offseason.

I think Heisey earned his shot at CF today. Stubbs is nothing more than a PR at this point...

IamRV
08-29-2012, 09:01 PM
And the judge would take a peek at the standings and laugh you out of court.

Red herring argument. So what exactly makes you think we wouldn't have even more wins by getting folks on base in front of those who can hit?

More folks on base in front of Votto, Frazier, Ludwick = more runs. That's not debatable. To argue the opposite is foolishness.

Ironman92
08-29-2012, 10:08 PM
I wish I could do some pounding...on some of my fellow Sundeck members. WE ALL KNOW THAT STUBBS SUCKS AND IS GOING TO PLAY...get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the fan I am....I can't. Corey Patterson the everyday CF for over 100 games and he was the worst offensive player in the league....Willy Taveras held the position for most of a year and again....batted high and was the worst offensive player in baseball. Now for 3 years we have Stubbs, who is not the worst offensive player but he's proven to be way up that list and for 500 games has been brutally frustrating and if anything has gotten worse.....

For 5 years Dusty has driven me crazy with the sucky (fast) CF batting 1st or 2nd with the complete inability to get on base. 3 years he did it and we lost....2 years he did it and we've won.

This has been Dusty's best season as a Red by 10-fold.....but we aren't the profound favorite....we are a playoff team with a chance and every fan sees Stubbs batting top of the order as a joke. Some of us want him to bat 7th or 8th and some want him to split time and some want him go find the guys from Cool Runnings and race them......who wants him to play 29/30 games and bat 1st or 2nd every time? It's a weak point and it'll be atrocious in the playoffs with advanced scouts following the Reds the last 30 games.

Falcon7
08-29-2012, 10:17 PM
3K's, then a infield hit followed by his 4th wiff of the day.
He needs to SIT (PR or late D replacement only) for at least 5 GAMES!

PumpFak3First
08-29-2012, 10:18 PM
So sick of you guys railing on Stubbs and Dusty and this whole situation. I mean the whole season, just get the hell over it. If this team finds a guy to bat at top next year Stubbs won't bat at the top. Heisey is not a legit option at the top, cut that pipe dream BS out. Stop playing arm chair QB, go to ESPN.com, click MLB, click standings, and then read them.

JESUS!

When Stubbs gets on he scores. When Stubbs scores we win. The numbers don't lie there. WE WIN A LOT! Some of you need to realize we need Stubbs in the playoffs, he's vital. Maybe a little support from time to time instead of the constant bashing of the guy. I guess most of you would boo if you were at the game and he was coming up to bat right? Sure sounds like it.

jhiller21
08-29-2012, 10:30 PM
It's frustrating when a guy with his speed never capitalizes on it. He should be chopping slow ground balls and bunting once in a while. He swings for the fences almost all the time.

I realize he has power, but his HR/doubles numbers are way down this year. He needs to adjust his game at the plate, or learn to like being a pinch runner.

Who Dey Time
08-29-2012, 11:03 PM
Red herring argument. So what exactly makes you think we wouldn't have even more wins by getting folks on base in front of those who can hit?

More folks on base in front of Votto, Frazier, Ludwick = more runs. That's not debatable. To argue the opposite is foolishness.

What is not debatable is when Stubbs gets on he scores. When he scores the Reds win. I'd rather have him hit 7th and I think he will once Votto returns. But the continued bashing of the guy and the continued bashing of a manager whose team holds the best record in baseball just shows a pathetic clinging to an issue that clearly has not held this team back.

Does Stubbs batting 2nd work under most circumstances? Nope.

Does Stubbs batting 2nd work for this team as it is currently shaped? Hell yes.

Tuff Nut
08-29-2012, 11:14 PM
This team has been winning despite Stubbs, not because of him. If the game is on the line, I know I don't want him to have to rely on him to get on base, or drive in a run.

Ironman92
08-29-2012, 11:20 PM
Why come on the thread if your worried about any negative taking from this great season....you know it's going to have negative stuff. It's an Internet message board. The best season ever by a player didn't win a championship and horrible, horrible players have won world series championships.

What Reds player has a poor record when they score? I bet most are over .700 winning % and probably several around 80%.....we're freaking good...duh.....and if you think that stat matters....then go to baseball reference and check his splits when he plays and the Reds lose....it's at least as impressive as his 44-6 or whatever it is now.

He's gotten worse each of the past 3 years....yet the Reds are great now. Yeah, he's what makes them go. I've watched a ridiculous amount of baseball for 25+ years and I've never witnessed a player with endless opportunities regardless of what he does.

7 straight starts making 4 or more outs....that may be one of the craziest stats I've ever seen.

malcontent
08-29-2012, 11:25 PM
This team has been winning despite Stubbs, not because of him. If the game is on the line, I know I don't want him to have to rely on him to get on base, or drive in a run.
Bingo.

His body language after he fans tells me he doesn't have a clue/chance.

RedsBrick
08-29-2012, 11:34 PM
And the judge would take a peek at the standings and laugh you out of court.

The standings in the regular season are one thing...playoffs are completely different. The playoffs have a way of exposing team weaknesses...and, unfortunately, the top of the order is a big weakness of this team. As someone said above, they've been winning despite that weakness.

The crazy thing to me is that there's somewhat of a solution. Simply move him down in the order.

Who Dey Time
08-29-2012, 11:41 PM
The standings in the regular season are one thing...playoffs are completely different. The playoffs have a way of exposing team weaknesses...and, unfortunately, the top of the order is a big weakness of this team. As someone said above, they've been winning despite that weakness.

The crazy thing to me is that there's somewhat of a solution. Simply move him down in the order.

The playoffs also accentuate a team's strengths which, in the Reds case, is pitching and defense.

I agree about moving him down but doing that or even replacing him with Heisey is not going to make a marked improvement in the overall performance of the offense. If your formula is pitching and defense you go with that strength and its clear that Stubbs has more value in center field than anyone else that could go there.

And, as some here will and have done, don't mistake my position here as a support of Stubbs. He is frustrating as they come but you have to look at the entire team and how they are built for success. If you objectively look at that you will understand his value despite his struggles at the plate.

Unfortunately, many here are just so entrenched in their hatred for Stubbs and for Dusty that they render themselves too bias to have a meaningful discussion about the topic.

MBZags
08-30-2012, 02:04 AM
This is directed to no one in particular and is just a gentle reminder.

One of the fundamental points of a message board is to facilitate reasoned analysis and discussion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion so long as it is expressed in a civil manner. You're not going to agree with everyone, but that doesn't give you the right to throw your hands up in exasperation and start complaining about others' opinions. Don't resort to belittling others, and don't be condescending. Make your point, defend your point, and agree to disagree if no progress is made. Stop with the bickering and simply stick to your opinions and the facts that support your opinion. If you feel like a user in particular is causing a problem, use the icon on the left side underneath that person's post to report that person. The mods will handle it from there.

As you were...

Reds
08-30-2012, 07:10 AM
I like Stubbs. I don't know why exactly but I feel like he's going to turn it on when it matters most. Maybe it's a weird dream I have where he comes up big when everyone expects a K. It's possible I got so down on the guy I've come around to the idea if a speedy defensive guy with pop and the likely potential to K. unless I'm reading into this wrong this this guy a new generation player, one that would not have seen a sniff of the big leagues 50 years ago? because of the strikeouts. or is he the opposite the type of defensive guy that could have gotten by with a low average? I'm confused by this dude, but mark my words there's something about his power that's going to make him an unlikely star on day in, what is hopefully, a big playoff game.

BLEEDS
08-30-2012, 09:15 AM
Read em and weep/rejoice::

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/reds-baker-sticking-stubbs-075014984--mlb.html

Looks like we might move him down when Joey gets back, however I think he's just going to ride it out... He can afford to.
Baker has proven he knows what he's doing, and he knows his guys. He is doing a great job of managing his players and helping them. Worked with Bruce and he only sat him as a "last resort".
I think Dusty is gonna let him work through this one... He obviously continues to value his defense, as was the mantra of the FO.
Might as well make peace with it, and root for the kid, cause he's gonna be playing, a lot.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

scott91575
08-30-2012, 09:23 AM
Read em and weep/rejoice::

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/reds-baker-sticking-stubbs-075014984--mlb.html

Looks like we might move him down when Joey gets back, however I think he's just going to ride it out... He can afford to.
Baker has proven he knows what he's doing, and he knows his guys. He is doing a great job of managing his players and helping them. Worked with Bruce and he only sat him as a "last resort".
I think Dusty is gonna let him work through this one... He obviously continues to value his defense, as was the mantra of the FO.
Might as well make peace with it, and root for the kid, cause he's gonna be playing, a lot.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

I got a little too excited when you said "looks like we might move him down." Let's just say I wasn't thinking in the lineup. Then after the comma I figured out what you meant. I know he doesn't have options (too much MLB service time) and no way they would DFA him, but a man can dream can't he? Dusty loves him some fast CF's who can't hit worth a lick.

BTW...Stubbs defense has not been that good this year either. Not only from a stat standpoint (which are often questionable), but from the eye test too. All around Stubbs has been subpar except stealing bases.

jback76
08-30-2012, 09:56 AM
I've been kind of feeling sorry for the kid myself. If you watch him in the dugout or between innings he looks depressed. If we're going to play him, put him down in the batting order where he's feeling less pressure. Dusty is embarrassing Stubbs by batting him 1st or 2nd right now.

swaisuc
08-30-2012, 11:22 AM
I got a little too excited when you said "looks like we might move him down." Let's just say I wasn't thinking in the lineup. Then after the comma I figured out what you meant. I know he doesn't have options (too much MLB service time) and no way they would DFA him, but a man can dream can't he? Dusty loves him some fast CF's who can't hit worth a lick.

BTW...Stubbs defense has not been that good this year either. Not only from a stat standpoint (which are often questionable), but from the eye test too. All around Stubbs has been subpar except stealing bases.

Even if I agreed with you that his defense has not been that good this year, average defense would still be better than our other choices. Heisey is below average out there and we have no reason to believe Bruce can be anything above terrible in CF defensively.

With that said, Dusty has sat better players than him for stretches (even did it with Bruce just last month) so I think that's a decent suggestion. When it counts though, I would like to see him in CF and low in the order and I think we will.

scott91575
08-30-2012, 11:47 AM
Even if I agreed with you that his defense has not been that good this year, average defense would still be better than our other choices. Heisey is below average out there and we have no reason to believe Bruce can be anything above terrible in CF defensively.

With that said, Dusty has sat better players than him for stretches (even did it with Bruce just last month) so I think that's a decent suggestion. When it counts though, I would like to see him in CF and low in the order and I think we will.

Actually, I would make the case Heisey is not below average in CF. He had one bad game recently and people remember that. Yet he has been above average when playing CF IMO. Prior to this year I would say Stubbs was superior, but like I mentioned, he has not been to that same level this year.

I can only guess Stubbs is dealing with some mental issues, both at the plate and in the field. Now this is only guessing, but he seems to be the kind of guy that beats him self up mentally. He needs to go to the Brandon Phillips school of playing mentality. Phillips can make the biggest bonehead play and then turn around and make the defensive play of the year. Things just don't get to him. On the other hand Stubbs seems to be affected for a long time by his mistakes and it just keeps on building up.

MrRedLegger
08-30-2012, 11:47 AM
Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are. He certainly is aware, and we can only hope that he's working very hard to fix it. I understand that being a former 1st round pick comes with a binky and a cradle when he's in the big show, but the scouts did rank him very high when he was coming up. That does mean something.

What we're forgetting is that Stubbs brings a great glove and arm (and legs) to center field. He adds to this team's strengths which has been greatly overlooked. When a guy is at the plate he gets 99.9% of the audience's and game's attention, so it's easy to scrutinize this aspect of the game. We've been talking about the team having average to above average bats this year, certainly not our strongest point. I'm scratching my head why Stubbs is getting this much flack when the team, as a whole, isn't doing that well at the plate. (Although since the break, without looking up numbers, I'd say we're doing very well on offense)

Could Stubbs be batting later in the lineup? Yes. When someone else gets on base and only gets to third on a Votto or BP double will we be wishing that it was instead Stubbs on base? Yes. Will we brag about our center fielder when he leaves a trail of fire in the outfield going for a ball, and then gunning a runner out at home? Yes. Absolutely Yes.

scott91575
08-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are. He certainly is aware, and we can only hope that he's working very hard to fix it. I understand that being a former 1st round pick comes with a binky and a cradle when he's in the big show, but the scouts did rank him very high when he was coming up. That does mean something.

What we're forgetting is that Stubbs brings a great glove and arm (and legs) to center field. He adds to this team's strengths which has been greatly overlooked. When a guy is at the plate he gets 99.9% of the audience's and game's attention, so it's easy to scrutinize this aspect of the game. We've been talking about the team having average to above average bats this year, certainly not our strongest point. I'm scratching my head why Stubbs is getting this much flack when the team, as a whole, isn't doing that well at the plate. (Although since the break, without looking up numbers, I'd say we're doing very well on offense)

Could Stubbs be batting later in the lineup? Yes. When someone else gets on base and only gets to third on a Votto or BP double will we be wishing that it was instead Stubbs on base? Yes. Will we brag about our center fielder when he leaves a trail of fire in the outfield going for a ball, and then gunning a runner out at home? Yes. Absolutely Yes.

I understand your way of thinking, but this is not just below average play. This is bottom of the barrel, would not be starting for 28 other teams play. It's professional baseball and a team leading the division. The Reds simply cannot keep trotting him out there in hopes he figures it out. Maybe if the Reds lock up the division and home field. At worst they need to took into some platoon out in CF with Heisey getting starts vs. most righties (Stubbs stats vs. righties is beyond brutal and no amount of defense makes up for it). If he picks it up getting to play 1/2 the time then they can look into playing him more again. Yet putting him out there every day is simply not helping. Maybe only playing him when he has a statistically better chance of succeeding will help. Now, I don't think he will OPS .486 the rest of the year like he has in August. Yet his poor play has not simply been a 1 month thing.

Jefferson24
08-30-2012, 12:07 PM
Stubbs is a professional athlete who is struggling...he doesn't need to read this forum to know what his problems are.

This is by no means a new problem and I am sure he has tried hard to correct the issue for many many years. That doesn't change the fact that his strikeouts are a problem and they are a problem he can't fix. If it were fixable it would have been fixed by now.

Time to move on in my opinion.

We have had a great year but I am greedy and I see this position as our weakest link. I want the Reds to be the best they can be and I think center field is the easiest upgrade this team can do.

markymark69
08-30-2012, 12:38 PM
What I don't get is the thinking by some that moving Stubbs down in the line-up makes his 0-4 with three strikeouts okay or somehow acceptable. I mean he truly only bats second (in the order) once in the game. In the 7th hole (which seems to be the preferred spot) he would likely have more RBI chances, which would make his strikeouts that much worse in my opinion.

Arguing about where he bats in the line-up is pointless - Dusty is going to play him and we as fans have to live with it. I know this will lead to more Dusty is an idiot threads - but I'm looking at one thing - overall record - I thought winning was the only thing that really counted - I've learned otherwise on this board.

Not only do the Reds have to win, Dusty has to put everyone in the line-up or on the field according to our liking and all of those players cannot make errors, cannot strikeout, etc. The pitchers can't walk anyone or give up home runs, etc.

Folks the Reds are 80-52 (.606) - enjoy it. Would the record be better if Stubbs weren't playing? I can't imagine it would much better than 60 percent winning percentage and the best record in the National League.

They are having a remarkable season and many on this board still continue to nitpick. Can we give it a rest?

scott91575
08-30-2012, 12:46 PM
What I don't get is the thinking by some that moving Stubbs down in the line-up makes his 0-4 with three strikeouts okay or somehow acceptable. I mean he truly only bats second (in the order) once in the game. In the 7th hole (which seems to be the preferred spot) he would likely have more RBI chances, which would make his strikeouts that much worse in my opinion.

Arguing about where he bats in the line-up is pointless - Dusty is going to play him and we as fans have to live with it. I know this will lead to more Dusty is an idiot threads - but I'm looking at one thing - overall record - I thought winning was the only thing that really counted - I've learned otherwise on this board.

Not only do the Reds have to win, Dusty has to put everyone in the line-up or on the field according to our liking and all of those players cannot make errors, cannot strikeout, etc. The pitchers can't walk anyone or give up home runs, etc.

Folks the Reds are 80-52 (.606) - enjoy it. Would the record be better if Stubbs weren't playing? I can't imagine it would much better than 60 percent winning percentage and the best record in the National League.

They are having a remarkable season and many on this board still continue to nitpick. Can we give it a rest?

No. Teams should always look to improve. Even if they have won every single game, you don't just sit there and say "well, we are undefeated so therefore there is no room for improvement."

This team has an obvious area that needs improvement. There is no problem discussing ways the team could improve. If you don't enjoy it, then these threads are not for you. Start a "let's sit back and enjoy this'" thread. I personally would find that rather boring, but if that is your thing then by all means go do it. I won't stop you or even show up in the thread to criticize you. I suggest you do the same thing with people who like to talk about this type of thing.

MrRedLegger
08-30-2012, 01:00 PM
It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

scott91575
08-30-2012, 01:09 PM
It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

He also stuck with Willy Taveras and Corey Patterson.

malcontent
08-30-2012, 01:32 PM
As much as I bash Baker, IMO this mess is largely Jocketty's fault.

Stubbs has been exposed for years and yet Jocketty hasn't moved him or replaced him in the lineup with a CF that can actually make contact.

I'm sure he's had chances to move him (in the past), but he's sat on his rear and didn't get it done. Now Stubbs' trade value is probably zero.

And we still get to watch his not-a-clue at-bats five times a game.

His offensive plate appearances aside, Stubbs deserves to be benched solely for his stubborn unwillingness to change his approach at the plate.

malcontent
08-30-2012, 01:38 PM
He also stuck with Willy Taveras and Corey Patterson.
Prosecution Exhibits 1A and 1B.

BungleBengals
08-30-2012, 02:23 PM
I do not know how Dusty can argue that we keep Stubbs in. Yes we are the best team in baseball, but at some point you have to change things up. Just because a team is in first or has a better record does not translate to wins. We are definitely going to have to change something by October, because while he is a good defender, he offense is a killer! Batting him second gives him close to 5 ABs a game, which in his recent but not unusual slump, will usually end up at 0-5 or 1-5 for the game with 3 Ks if not a Golden Sombrero.

0-5 (5 outs) is almost 2 innings worth of outs. That wouldn't be too bad, but his K's do not allow our runners to at least tag up or move to other bases either.

What I do not understand is how Dusty can think Stubbs' defense is worth all of this? I think Bruce would do fine in CF, especially with his arm, plus the dropoff of defense in CF from going from Stubbs to Bruce is no where close to the offense gained by keeping Frazier and adding Votto.

Red Buckeye
08-30-2012, 02:24 PM
It's not about the record. I think we all want to see our center fielder do well, and although I think everyone agrees he is needed in the field, what is debatable is that his bat could be later in the lineup or not there at all. Personally, I think he should stat in the 2-hole. Dusty stuck with Ludwick and Rolen and look at what they have done for this team. Same argument could be made for Frazier, as Dusty has platooned him all over the field. Like a butterfly hatching from a cocoon, Stubbs can painfully push his way through this, swell his wings, and hopefully take off. (corny I know, but I think Skip is thinking something alone these lines)

Yes but the difference is that Ludwick and Rolen were able to turn it around in a few months. Stubbs has been trying to turn it around since 2011, and his average has gotten worse every year since he started here. He is degressing and still hasn't made adjustments at the plate even after 3 years. His offense is a major liabilty.

The Reds need to give Heisey some time in CF and not just a spot game here and there, but a nice 3 weeks of starting everyday in CF. If he is so horrible fielding that Stubbs offensive troubles can be overlooked then fine, put K Stubbs back in. I have a feeling Hi C would be able to hold his own in CF and there is no debate who is better at the plate.

Who Dey Time
08-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Prosecution Exhibits 1A and 1B.

In 2008, the options on the roster after Patterson were Hopper, Freel and Dickerson. Garbage.

In 2009, the options after Taveras were Dickerson, McDonald and Balentein until Stubbs was a late season call up. Pure trash.

In 2012, the option after Stubbs is Heisey. Uninspiring to say the least.

Some have argued that Dusty give too much rope to certain guys and they might have merit but only to a point since you have to condsider that, despite the starter's struggles, plan B wasn't really worth putting out there to begin with. Is that a manager issue or a FO issue?

malcontent
08-30-2012, 02:52 PM
In 2008, the options on the roster after Patterson were Hopper, Freel and Dickerson. Garbage.

In 2009, the options after Taveras were Dickerson, McDonald and Balentein until Stubbs was a late season call up. Pure trash.

In 2012, the option after Stubbs is Heisey. Uninspiring to say the least.

Some have argued that Dusty give too much rope to certain guys and they might have merit but only to a point since you have to condsider that, despite the starter's struggles, plan B wasn't really worth putting out there to begin with. Is that a manager issue or a FO issue?
An FO issue. So long as the manager didn't push for those guys in the first place.....

rgslone
08-30-2012, 03:02 PM
Those who say quit worrying about Stubbs and just look at the record, are right in the big picture. Where Stubbs bats in the order is a tweaking issue, and probably not a major difference maker. Still, as fans we like to have things to dissect and obsess about. That doesn't mean we're not enjoying the season or ecstatic with the Reds this season.

With that being said, my take on Stubbs has always been that he should never bat higher than 6th in any major league lineup. In the bottom of the lineup he'll have less plate appearances, and when he accidentally gets on base his base-stealing may have some value in front of Hannigan. It would be even better if Stubbs only played against LH pitching - unless his defense is so far superior to Heisey and Bruce in CF that he really needs to play more often for the benefit of the team.

That's my take on using Stubbs this season, because, regardless of what the fans think, he is going to continue to play; and hopefully he can have some luck and help the Reds reach the World Series. In my opinion, however, this should really be the last year Stubbs ever finds himself on a major league roster. I don't think he would be a wise choice for a 4th or 5th outfielder on any team. He can't hit, he has never hit, and he will never hit. He's too old to be called a prospect or expect significant improvement. He is what he is. And unless he can be converted to a pitcher, he simply lacks the pitch recognition skills to be a major league player.

BungleBengals
08-30-2012, 03:18 PM
Those who say quit worrying about Stubbs and just look at the record, are right in the big picture. Where Stubbs bats in the order is a tweaking issue, and probably not a major difference maker. Still, as fans we like to have things to dissect and obsess about. That doesn't mean we're not enjoying the season or ecstatic with the Reds this season.


Agreed. I love what the Reds are doing this year and look foward to them hopefully continuing this success in years to come, but I think people are complaining because: 1. they are actually paying attention to Reds and 2. With a team as good as this one, we are trying to just find ways to improve upon an already very good team. People will always complain about something. The fact that the team is solid is a lot of positions, leads a lot of the complaints to be repetitive where we find weaknesses.

malcontent
08-30-2012, 03:26 PM
He can't hit, he has never hit, and he will never hit. He's too old to be called a prospect or expect significant improvement. He is what he is. And unless he can be converted to a pitcher, he simply lacks the pitch recognition skills to be a major league player.
Agreed.

Ironman92
08-30-2012, 05:39 PM
Iron Horse

IamRV
08-30-2012, 08:40 PM
It simply boils down to this. If you had to make the choice, knowing that the three guys on the team that you choose would get 5 AB's each game and everyone else would get 4, which three guys would you choose to get 5?

Dusty chooses two of the three that aren't much better hitters than our pitchers. A real head scratcher.

Trajinous
08-30-2012, 08:59 PM
Some of you guys are waaaaaaaaaaay too harsh on Stubbs. He's definitely a major leaguer and one of the fastest guys in the game. The problem is he's not utilized correctly. He's not a top of the order guy. He's a .250, 15-20 HR, near 800 OPS.

Why is he expected to be a .340 OBP guy that hits singles?

Red Raindog
08-30-2012, 09:42 PM
Some of you guys are waaaaaaaaaaay too harsh on Stubbs. He's definitely a major leaguer and one of the fastest guys in the game. The problem is he's not utilized correctly. He's not a top of the order guy. He's a .250, 15-20 HR, near 800 OPS.

Why is he expected to be a .340 OBP guy that hits singles?

His BA - AB - OPS

2009 .267 180 .762
2010 .255 514 .773
2011 .243 604 .685
2012 .221 420 .649

I don't see anything close to a .250 BA .800 OPS type of guy -- or are you saying he would be if he hit in a different spot in the lineup?

I'm just trying to see what you are seeing in Stubbs - not have a fight

R_Webb18
08-30-2012, 09:52 PM
i think the problem with some of you is you fall in love with potential. you need to open your eyes. he's terrible. yea i could see him maybe 1 day getting better but its time to move on. let someone else fix him. if your not going move bruce to cf and play todd f then id let him finish the year but that's it.


also 1 more thing we didn't have wait til votto is back to bat brandon p 1st and move stubbs down.

but that's dusty for you.

Trajinous
08-30-2012, 10:26 PM
His BA - AB - OPS

2009 .267 180 .762
2010 .255 514 .773
2011 .243 604 .685
2012 .221 420 .649

I don't see anything close to a .250 BA .800 OPS type of guy -- or are you saying he would be if he hit in a different spot in the lineup?

I'm just trying to see what you are seeing in Stubbs - not have a fight

Fair, enough. It's all friendly debate.

I think he would improve in a different spot, my opinion. I'm arguing that Stubbs is an useful player. I would prefer Bruce in CF and Frazier in RF but Dusty is our manager. If, that's a big IF, knocked down in the lineup, I believe he would be that .750-.800 OPS guy.

Here's his line hitting #7 over the past 3 seasons. .258avg 330ab 756ops .320obp

Taking his mentality away from lead-off/obp guy that hits 1 or 2 would improve his approach at the plate. I think he tries too hard at the top of the order similar to how BP did last year batting clean-up. You can't argue his value during one of his streaks. At the age of 27 (one year older than Frazier), I think it's too soon to give up on him. Look at EE, it took him til he was 29 for it to click.

Sticking him at the top of the order is just ruining him and his trade value.

Ironman92
08-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Fast

Ironman92
08-30-2012, 10:57 PM
In his past 8 games Drew has struck out 21 times.....in Juan Pierre's 367 plate appearances this year he has 20 strikeouts.

Ironman92
08-30-2012, 11:00 PM
This will be my last one.

Taking his past 8 games and projecting it into a full season he'd have 425 strikeouts....which would be a record I believe.

scott91575
08-30-2012, 11:01 PM
In 2008, the options on the roster after Patterson were Hopper, Freel and Dickerson. Garbage.

In 2009, the options after Taveras were Dickerson, McDonald and Balentein until Stubbs was a late season call up. Pure trash.

In 2012, the option after Stubbs is Heisey. Uninspiring to say the least.

Some have argued that Dusty give too much rope to certain guys and they might have merit but only to a point since you have to condsider that, despite the starter's struggles, plan B wasn't really worth putting out there to begin with. Is that a manager issue or a FO issue?

Dickerson and Freel were much better those years than Taveras and Patterson. I don't think you understand how bad those two were (they make Stubbs look like an all star). Right now Heisey is better than Stubbs. Sure, we are not talking about all star level backups. Yet the starters were the worst in baseball, and Stubbs is pretty much the 2nd worst CF in baseball. When that happens, you sit them and give the backups (who put up better numbers when given a change to play) a chance to play more.

Heck, Rolen and Ludwick were mentioned earlier. Don't forget they were not exactly playing every day. That is really all I want with Stubbs. Put Heisey out there 3 times a week (preferably against righties). That is still plenty of at bats for Stubbs to turn anything around (very similar to Ludwick). In the mean time they reduce his negative effect he currently has.

Red Raindog
08-30-2012, 11:48 PM
Fair, enough. It's all friendly debate.

I think he would improve in a different spot, my opinion. I'm arguing that Stubbs is an useful player. I would prefer Bruce in CF and Frazier in RF but Dusty is our manager. If, that's a big IF, knocked down in the lineup, I believe he would be that .750-.800 OPS guy.

Here's his line hitting #7 over the past 3 seasons. .258avg 330ab 756ops .320obp

Taking his mentality away from lead-off/obp guy that hits 1 or 2 would improve his approach at the plate. I think he tries too hard at the top of the order similar to how BP did last year batting clean-up. You can't argue his value during one of his streaks. At the age of 27 (one year older than Frazier), I think it's too soon to give up on him. Look at EE, it took him til he was 29 for it to click.

Sticking him at the top of the order is just ruining him and his trade value.

On your last line -- we are in complete agreement

I think I've seen enough of him because his numbers are rapidly decling while he is reaching the magic age 27 number --- I'm with those that think he should be someone else's reclamation project.

Heisey or someone else picked from who knows where can give us more at this point.

I feel sorry for him -- I think he has been seriously abused by the team's management.

DocRed
08-31-2012, 12:13 AM
This will be my last one.

Taking his past 8 games and projecting it into a full season he'd have 425 strikeouts....which would be a record I believe.

Thats nothing.....I'm pretty sure I could strike out more than that.

fielder's choice
08-31-2012, 11:02 AM
Heisey >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stubbs

Trajinous
08-31-2012, 12:15 PM
On your last line -- we are in complete agreement

I think I've seen enough of him because his numbers are rapidly decling while he is reaching the magic age 27 number --- I'm with those that think he should be someone else's reclamation project.

Heisey or someone else picked from who knows where can give us more at this point.

I feel sorry for him -- I think he has been seriously abused by the team's management.

I agree with you on that one. I read here or maybe an announcer said it, it seems like Dusty is punishing Stubbs like the batter equivalent of pitching through 5 innings when losing by 9. It's either that or unfathomable ignorance from Dusty.

Norm Chortleton
09-01-2012, 12:28 AM
Heisey 5 rbi last 2 games
Stubbs 5 rbi last 28 games


Heisey 5 runs scored last 3 games
Stubbs 5 runs scored last 17 games

BluegrassRedleg
09-01-2012, 02:38 AM
Heisey 5 rbi last 2 games
Stubbs 5 rbi last 28 games


Heisey 5 runs scored last 3 games
Stubbs 5 runs scored last 17 games

:beerme:

mikemo14
09-01-2012, 03:59 PM
Stubbs is back in the lineup today and Heisey is on the pines again. I don't get it at all.

dubc47834
09-01-2012, 04:16 PM
Stubbs is back in the lineup today and Heisey is on the pines again. I don't get it at all.

Why do you expect things to change now...if it hasnt all season...why would it in the last month of the season?

BluegrassRedleg
09-01-2012, 04:38 PM
Stubbs is back in the lineup today and Heisey is on the pines again. I don't get it at all.

This is about power and control, not common sense.

Tuff Nut
09-01-2012, 05:07 PM
Stubbs is back in the lineup today and Heisey is on the pines again. I don't get it at all.
"It's Gotta Be da Shoes"........Mars Blackman

Ironman92
09-01-2012, 05:59 PM
"It's Gotta Be da Shoes"........Mars Blackman

I'd rather have Mars in the lineup.

Dusty had a 1/2 hour meeting with Drew in Dusty's office. Dusty commented it was really hard to sit him in his hometown.

I guess Gerhig's benching lasted 7 innings.

DocRed
09-02-2012, 01:32 PM
and yet he is in the lineup again....geezus Duhsty I know you are stubborn and all but come on!!@!@

mikemo14
09-02-2012, 02:14 PM
I guess Dusty does'nt want to embarass his golden boy in his home state by sitting him on the bench. Heisey may return to the line up when we return to Pittsburgh in front of the PA crowd. I'm sure Dusty feels "we've got to get Stubby going" but 130 games may be enough of a chance already.

texasdave
09-02-2012, 04:30 PM
One year and 130 games to be exact.

Todd Gack
09-02-2012, 08:05 PM
I really hope we extend Dusty or this board would be really boring.

jback76
09-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I really hope we extend Dusty or this board would be really boring.

Give Dusty's replacement a few days and I know we'll be able to come up with a few things to complain about.

WDE
09-02-2012, 09:10 PM
Heisey>Stubbs. It's that simple

BluegrassRedleg
09-03-2012, 12:59 AM
I really hope we extend Dusty or this board would be really boring.

There are a lot of things for which Dusty gets nit-picked. Repeatedly starting a player with horrific offensive numbers in the 1 or 2 hole of the order is not one of them.

DocRed
09-03-2012, 01:28 AM
I have been as big of a Stubbs critic as there is on this board...but I have to say that tonight was a GREAT game by Stubbs. 1 for 4 raising his BA by leaps and bounds and only 1 strikeout. Gonna eat some crow and say I don't know how you keep that kind of bat out of the lineup....

jback76
09-03-2012, 10:27 AM
For all the complaining about Stubbs I don't think Heisey is the long term solution either. Whenever Heisey has played for any length of time in the past he has been just as frustrating as Stubbs IMO. The answer is probably a mix of Heisey and Stubbs for the remainder of this season. Can't be any worse than straight Stubbs.

BLEEDS
09-03-2012, 11:45 AM
don't forget the walk, that makes it a .400 OBP!!
:)

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 11:53 AM
Stubbs is batting 2nd today!

I guess I'm gonna have to buy his jersey.

Ohayou
09-03-2012, 12:00 PM
The Reds could always take a stab at Michael Bourn in the offseason, although Washington will probably end up signing him for a ridiculous amount of money.

jback76
09-03-2012, 12:01 PM
Maybe the meeting the other day was Dusty telling Stubbs," Don't worry you're my centerfielder for the rest of the season."

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 12:13 PM
Maybe the meeting the other day was Dusty telling Stubbs," Don't worry you're my centerfielder for the rest of the season."

That would take a 1/2 an hour? Lol If that's what was said it was a meaningless meeting as Stubbs would have no prior experiences to think otherwise.

I think the meeting was:

Dusty....boy, you are really fast

Drew.... Yes sir I am, thanks.

Dusty....no I mean special fast

Drew....yeah I can beat Chris to first by nearly .15

Dusty.....it makes me so proud to have you

Drew....(tearing up), thanks for the confidence skipper

Dusty...no problem son.....BTW, do you still have those pictures of me?

Drew...Yep

Dusty....you gonna give them to me

Drew....no way, never

Dusty....Go get em the next 30 games!

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 05:03 PM
He's up to .219 and his OB% is a solid .284....no HR in 119 plate appearances? No doubles in 89 plate appearances? No extra base hits in 63 plate appearances? No stolen bases his past 17 games?

BluegrassRedleg
09-03-2012, 05:06 PM
Another wasted day with an automatic out in the 2 hole.

But, hey, Dusty's in charge.

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 05:17 PM
Sweet Jesus.

In Stubbs past 26 games...

.157 avg
.196 OB %
.186 Slug %
.382 OPS

1 double
1 triple
0 HR
3 RBI
8 runs
5 BB
4 SB (0 in last 17 games)
40 strikeouts

Reds still went 16-10 for a .615 winning %

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 05:37 PM
In the same # of games Heisey is hitting .323 and has a .902 OPS

Oh well.

UPRedsFan
09-03-2012, 06:04 PM
But it's the defense. Don't you remember all the running catches in centerfield that would have dropped in for hits or gone to the wall for doubles if Heisey or Bruce would have been playing center? Don't you remember? Umm... ok... I guess I can't remember any either.

Dusty listen! We are going to lose games 3-2 and 2-1 when we get to the playoffs and our offense is facing top tier starters. You have to pull stubbs and all his automatic outs from the order. Give the offense a fighting chance against Washington's pitching

BluegrassRedleg
09-03-2012, 06:18 PM
Sweet Jesus.

In Stubbs past 26 games...

.157 avg
.196 OB %
.186 Slug %
.382 OPS

1 double
1 triple
0 HR
3 RBI
8 runs
5 BB
4 SB (0 in last 17 games)
40 strikeouts

Reds still went 16-10 for a .615 winning %

I would mildly upset if he was playing every day and hitting 8th with those numbers. But it goes from mildly upset to beyond pissed off with him sitting in the 2 hole every day.

40YrRedsFan
09-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Heisey has never had the playing time Stubbs has. Many say he is not the long term solution. How do we know when he rarely plays three straight games? Stubbs has played weeks at a time. It seems the only time Stubbs sits is after a couple of really really bad games. And then he only gets one day off and is right back in the lineup.

jback76
09-03-2012, 06:35 PM
Hey Ironman92, there are know pictures bad enough to warrant Dusty running Stubbs out there day after day in the 2 hole!

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Hey Ironman92, there are know pictures bad enough to warrant Dusty running Stubbs out there day after day in the 2 hole!

Do they involve a picture of Heisey, some darts and a dartboard?

40YrRedsFan
09-03-2012, 06:47 PM
Stubbs has had about 140 more at bats than Heisey. Heisey strikes out about 1 in 4.5 times at bat (65 total). Stubbs strikes out 1 in every 3 at bats (139 TOTAL). Heisey is putting the ball in play a considerable amount more than Stubbs. Just from these stats alone, Heisey should be getting the majority of the playing time. As for defense, Stubbs is faster, but rarely dives or runs into walls to catch anything. Heisey would run through the wall and dive for it anytime. Stubbs has been given several years of chances. It's Heisey's turn.

Ironman92
09-03-2012, 06:59 PM
Where do Stubbs and Cozy rank in MLB among OB%.....

I can't check on my phone. Guessing both might be near the bottom 10 of probably 200-250 players.

40YrRedsFan
09-03-2012, 07:09 PM
Where do Stubbs and Cozy rank in MLB among OB%.....

I can't check on my phone. Guessing both might be near the bottom 10 of probably 200-250 players.

Stubbs and Cozart OBP are identical. .285 They rank #443 and #445 in MLB. There are less than 10 other full time players with OBP lower than these two.
Heisey's OBP is .325

malcontent
09-03-2012, 07:10 PM
Another wasted day with an automatic out in the 2 hole.

But, hey, Dusty's in charge.
Wait till the NLDS when he goes 0-15 with 12 Ks.

Be worse than watching Reggie Sanders in 1995.

We'll get to see that infamous clueless/hopeless facial expression as he strolls repeatedly back to the dugout.

Same dugout where Frazier will be watching the games from.

40YrRedsFan
09-03-2012, 07:11 PM
Stubbs has been in the league for 3 1/2 years. Heisey has been here for 3 years.

Stubbs has had almost 1800 at bats, while Heisey has had less than 800. Give Heisey the chances Stubbs has had.

malcontent
09-03-2012, 07:15 PM
Stubbs has had about 140 more at bats than Heisey. Heisey strikes out about 1 in 4.5 times at bat (65 total). Stubbs strikes out 1 in every 3 at bats (139 TOTAL). Heisey is putting the ball in play a considerable amount more than Stubbs. Just from these stats alone, Heisey should be getting the majority of the playing time. As for defense, Stubbs is faster, but rarely dives or runs into walls to catch anything. Heisey would run through the wall and dive for it anytime. Stubbs has been given several years of chances. It's Heisey's turn.
I completely agree.

I haven't been a huge Heisey fan, primarily because I want another LH bat in the lineup. But he's making a believer out of me, more and more.

He's by far the better choice in CF at this point, IMO. I could actually see Heisey making some noise in the post-season IF he got the chance.

mikemo14
09-04-2012, 12:32 AM
The main difference in the two is Heisey is adjusting to his weaknesses and improving while Stubbs is regressing. Heisey is not hitting with the power he did last year but has cut way down on his K's can move runners over with a bunt and it far from a liability in the OF. I think Heisey knows what this team needs from him or Stubbs (a table setter for Votto-Bruce) and has altered his game to do just that. These people that say K's are just another out and have no meaning are way off when it pertains to someone with speed like Stubbs. If he makes contact the chances are very good that he will get on base.

Driver62
09-05-2012, 12:22 PM
I haven't read all the posts on this subject so this may have been mentioned. I was watching the game last night and every time Stubbs would swing and miss, he was pulling his head and looking towards left field. It was so obvious that the broadcasters mic picked up a fan yelling "Keep your head in." On his base hit, he kept his head in.

Anyone else notice that?

HUHUH
09-10-2012, 01:17 PM
Stubbs and Cozart OBP are identical. .285 They rank #443 and #445 in MLB. There are less than 10 other full time players with OBP lower than these two.
Heisey's OBP is .325

So if they have identical OBP how are they #443 and #445? Shouldn't they be tied?

SWIndRed
09-10-2012, 02:18 PM
Perhaps in rounding to 3 decimal places that are tied, but taken to a 4th decimal place they are not identical. Math teacher - sorry for lecturing.