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40YrRedsFan
10-03-2012, 11:09 PM
Stubbs will be in centerfield both games in SF. Dusty says he needs his best defensive outfield in the games because the outfield is so big. Then why does he replace Ludwick with Heisey late in games? I guess Heisey can't be that bad. Why can't he give a little in center field and get someone in there with a
better chance of getting a few hits? Our offense is in more need than our defense is right now. We need to score runs.

goreds2
10-03-2012, 11:13 PM
http://redsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dusty-baker7.jpg

texasdave
10-03-2012, 11:14 PM
Stubbs will be in centerfield both games in SF. Dusty says he needs his best defensive outfield in the games because the outfield is so big. Then why does he replace Ludwick with Heisey late in games? I guess Heisey can't be that bad. Why can't he give a little in center field and get someone in there with a
better chance of getting a few hits? Our offense is in more need than our defense is right now. We need to score runs.


Baker talks to hear himself talk. If he truly believed that he needs his best defensive outfield in SF then Heisey will be starting in left, since he comes in as a defensive replacement for Ludwick late in games. Don't hold your breath waiting on that to happen. If he wants to start Stubbs then just say so. Don't make up things that make no sense.

HometownHero
10-03-2012, 11:54 PM
It is a big CF due to the massive RCF so I can live with it.

PumpFak3First
10-04-2012, 12:38 AM
Baker bashing and the playoffs haven't even started jesus, no wonder he had a mild stroke

redsrolen
10-04-2012, 12:48 AM
Dusty has done an amazing job this yr & he certainly knows the 'Stubby' can't hit 'his weight'...He will be out there as long as we can carry him...but if it gets late & we need runs...maybe as early as the 5th...he will be gone....(I think...I hope):rolleyes:

Maker_84
10-04-2012, 02:10 AM
the rest of the offense has been about just as bad as Stubbs. An average hitting chris heisey isn't gonna save this offense so might as well continue to be defensive heavy

Ironman92
10-04-2012, 05:28 AM
Baker bashing and the playoffs haven't even started jesus, no wonder he had a mild stroke

If he's reading this site after being in professional baseball for 40+ years....well then it's worry time.

Red Raindog
10-04-2012, 06:50 AM
Dusty has done an amazing job this yr & he certainly knows the 'Stubby' can't hit 'his weight'...He will be out there as long as we can carry him...but if it gets late & we need runs...maybe as early as the 5th...he will be gone....(I think...I hope):rolleyes:

IF we need runs? This offense has gone into a coma.

Here's hoping for a a bunch of 1-0 & 2-1 Reds' wins.

I will have to drink a lot more in these upcoming series.

IamRV
10-04-2012, 12:51 PM
I can't imagine why this would surprise anyone. I just hope Walt can address this issue in the off season.

DocRed
10-04-2012, 12:56 PM
Mules have nothing on Mr. Baker....

webbbj
10-04-2012, 12:58 PM
seems fine just bat him 8th.

smixsell
10-04-2012, 12:59 PM
It is a big CF due to the massive RCF so I can live with it.

I agree.

Plus, I still have foolish hopes that Stubbs will be this season's Buddy Biancalana. :D

jhiller21
10-04-2012, 01:10 PM
At least he's batting 8th now. Stubbs can cover some serious ground out there, and with SF's huge gap, he might save some doubles.

RedTruck
10-04-2012, 02:23 PM
At least he's batting 8th now. Stubbs can cover some serious ground out there, and with SF's huge gap, he might save some doubles.

yup. will save us some runs with his great speed in that huge outfield.

PumpFak3First
10-04-2012, 02:24 PM
I can't imagine why this would surprise anyone. I just hope Walt can address this issue in the off season.

Bolding your posts doesn't make them any more important

IamRV
10-04-2012, 05:53 PM
Bolding your posts doesn't make them any more important

You're correct, it doesn't but if it bothers you there is an ignore feature.

PumpFak3First
10-04-2012, 06:04 PM
You're correct, it doesn't but if it bothers you there is an ignore feature.

I just think it's sort of lame to try to make your posts stand out among the others when we all use the same font consistently. What's the point outside of attention seeking?

Trajinous
10-04-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm fine with Stubbs starting. He has the ability to carry a team to a win during a game. Let's hope he's ready.

xsteve1
10-05-2012, 01:33 AM
Bolding your posts doesn't make them any more important

It just makes him look more idiotic.

dabvu2498
10-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Ok, enough with the personal stuff.

IamRV
10-05-2012, 01:33 PM
I just think it's sort of lame to try to make your posts stand out among the others when we all use the same font consistently. What's the point outside of attention seeking?

You win.

mikemo14
10-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Heisey has struggled big time lately as well. Had a chance to make a statement in late Sept and Oct and came up empty. Still a better choice than Stubbs IMO.

texasdave
10-05-2012, 02:35 PM
Stubbs has to smoke a pitch sooner or later. Right?

malcontent
10-05-2012, 02:47 PM
Stubbs has to smoke a pitch sooner or later. Right?
If he does, it will be strictly blind squirrel finds acorn.

Yeah, I guess there's a chance.

Heisey is a guy that I could actually see coming through in a post-season series or two. Just strikes me that way.

markymark69
10-05-2012, 04:56 PM
Baker bashing is just par for the course. It wouldn't make any difference if he started Heisey over Stubbs, this board would find something else to complain about.

The amazing thing is about criticism in any aspect of life - if the one dishing out the bashing turns out to be wrong - nothing ever happens. If Stubbs goes 3-3 steals two bags and makes a game-saving catch - not one of the bashers will give Baker any credit that he pushed the right button. It will be all be luck.

I'm not crazy about Stubbs starting, but they did pretty well this year with him playing most of the time and as I have said before - Heisey is a good player, but he's not the end all be all.

malcontent
10-05-2012, 06:09 PM
BIf Stubbs goes 3-3 steals two bags and makes a game-saving catch - not one of the bashers will give Baker any credit that he pushed the right button. It will be all be luck.
No, if that happens I'll admit to being wrong. And it could happen, anything is possible. Baker just might be drawing all the right cards this season.

I suspect that it won't happen. And I'd hate to see Stubbs help sink the ship now. Based on his performance this season he simply should not be starting, IMO.

malcontent
10-07-2012, 04:24 AM
So far so good.

A BIG single. And a nice defensive play, though "companion coverage" didn't really cover it.

scott91575
10-07-2012, 05:23 AM
Baker bashing is just par for the course. It wouldn't make any difference if he started Heisey over Stubbs, this board would find something else to complain about.

The amazing thing is about criticism in any aspect of life - if the one dishing out the bashing turns out to be wrong - nothing ever happens. If Stubbs goes 3-3 steals two bags and makes a game-saving catch - not one of the bashers will give Baker any credit that he pushed the right button. It will be all be luck.

I'm not crazy about Stubbs starting, but they did pretty well this year with him playing most of the time and as I have said before - Heisey is a good player, but he's not the end all be all.

When is the last time Stubbs went 3-3, stole 2 bags, and made a game saving catch.

I will save you the time. It has never happened. Drew Stubbs has NEVER gone 3 for 3 and stolen 2 bases. He went 3 for 3 once, and did steal a base vs. Washington last year. That is the only time it has ever come close to happening.

Everything Drew Stubbs has done in the past shows that if he does have a great game, IT IS LUCK! How may games do you apologists need to watch in order to realize he has no business starting in MLB? You sit there and talk about 1 game. What about the hundreds of games he sucks? The Reds have won despite him, not because of him. He is 1 of the 2 worst regular centerfielders in the game, and very well could be the worst. This is not debatable. Could he suddenly become a hero? Sure. They could pull me out of the stands and maybe I could hit a home run. It would be luck, and you know that because I suck at baseball. Yet it could happen. Doesn't mean it would be a good move. Same thing with Stubbs. Every single thing we have seen for more than a year says he sucks at baseball, at least on the MLB level. If he succeeds at a crucial point, heck yes it's luck. He has proven over and over again any success he might have is luck. His stats are beyond brutal at this point, and anything he does will go against all common sense and reason. It would be complete luck. So my only hope is to believe in Leprechauns, fairies, and Drew Stubbs 3 for 3 nights with 2 stolen bases. The sad part is none of them exist, yet you and Dusty keep believing in them.

scott91575
10-07-2012, 05:29 AM
So far so good.

A BIG single. And a nice defensive play, though "companion coverage" didn't really cover it.

Wow, 1 for 4, a single, and a play every centerfielder in MLB makes. Hall of Fame, take out a spot for Drew Stubbs. Let's just forget the 3-0 count where he got pitches right down the heart and struck out with a man on first.

When you are praising a guy for going 1 for 4 with a single and cutting off a ball pretty much every player makes, you know he is bad. He had an ok day and you are praising him. That is how much he sucks. OK is worth praise.

Hey, if Stubbs goes on to be the superstar of this playoffs, don't kid yourself. It is luck. Could it happen. Sure. Billy Hatcher was a superstar in 1990 (who was much better than Stubbs that year). Even stranger things have happened. Yet it doesn't make it the smart call.

muethibp
10-07-2012, 08:16 AM
Wow, 1 for 4, a single, and a play every centerfielder in MLB makes. Hall of Fame, take out a spot for Drew Stubbs. Let's just forget the 3-0 count where he got pitches right down the heart and struck out with a man on first.

When you are praising a guy for going 1 for 4 with a single and cutting off a ball pretty much every player makes, you know he is bad. He had an ok day and you are praising him. That is how much he sucks. OK is worth praise.

Hey, if Stubbs goes on to be the superstar of this playoffs, don't kid yourself. It is luck. Could it happen. Sure. Billy Hatcher was a superstar in 1990 (who was much better than Stubbs that year). Even stranger things have happened. Yet it doesn't make it the smart call.

You've obviously long ago made up your mind about Drew, so there's little point arguing about him with you. But "every" centerfielder does not make that play in the second inning (specifically keeping a runner from scoring from first on a double in that outfield), in fact, most don't. And there were probably a half dozen times last night that I found myself thinking how comfortable I was having him out there as he made routine plays. If you can't recognize that, for all his faults, the man was born to patrol CF in that park, then you really may be too far gone on the point.

Also, does he deserve no credit for the fact that Cain threw a terrible pitch to BP with Stubbs on base?

Ironman92
10-07-2012, 12:35 PM
Every CF does not cut that ball off without bobble and most CF do make that same play.

And you guys thought Stubbs bothered me! Lol

1940757690
10-07-2012, 03:28 PM
I've always been a bit on-the-fence about Stubbs. Less so in the past year as I lean more towards his stats telling an all-too-consistent story. He kind of reminds me of Danny Espinosa in DC. Like Stubbs, Espinosa strikes out....a lot. With 189 this year, more than anyone else in the NL. Like Stubbs, Espinosa is very good (if unexceptional) defensively. The main differences are Espinosa hits for power more often (17 HR this year) and has less of a track record.

But, I have a bit different take on this because I'm a leadership guy. Hire good people to run stuff. Then let them do their jobs and just hold them accountable for the results and not the means used to get there.

At the end of the day, teams and those who lead them get measured by wins and losses*

Dusty knows what he's doing. He deserves our support. We don't know all he knows however much we read.

Let's see what Drew does this postseason. Maybe he'll surprise us (and not Dusty). If he doesn't perform, I'd bet we'll see change next year.

* with notable exceptions like Davey Johnson (fired by Marge Schott during our dark period and the O's, both times after winning seasons)

mikemo14
10-07-2012, 04:36 PM
Maybe we will get lucky in the post season with Stubbs, but certainly Walt has seen enough over the last two years to realize we need to find an upgrade in CF in the offseason. These past few months were way beyond dissapointing.

malcontent
10-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Wow, 1 for 4, a single, and a play every centerfielder in MLB makes. Hall of Fame, take out a spot for Drew Stubbs. Let's just forget the 3-0 count where he got pitches right down the heart and struck out with a man on first.

When you are praising a guy for going 1 for 4 with a single and cutting off a ball pretty much every player makes, you know he is bad. He had an ok day and you are praising him. That is how much he sucks. OK is worth praise.

Hey, if Stubbs goes on to be the superstar of this playoffs, don't kid yourself. It is luck. Could it happen. Sure. Billy Hatcher was a superstar in 1990 (who was much better than Stubbs that year). Even stranger things have happened. Yet it doesn't make it the smart call.
Dude, I agree with you.

I'm just saying that his start last night was better than the apocalypse I've been predicting. I hope I'm wrong for the rest of the season, cause we know he's gonna be in there.

DocRed
10-07-2012, 08:18 PM
Stubbs is due for a big night...calling it now. :X

malcontent
10-08-2012, 11:57 AM
Stubbs is due for a big night...calling it now. :X
He nailed the triple. Only one K so far.

Biff Pocoroba
10-08-2012, 12:26 PM
Given his strong defense and speed, I don't mind Stubbs being in there...now that he's been dropped to eighth in the order. It's not like our other options are sure bets to rip the cover off the ball.

malcontent
10-08-2012, 01:52 PM
Given his strong defense and speed, I don't mind Stubbs being in there...now that he's been dropped to eighth in the order. It's not like our other options are sure bets to rip the cover off the ball.
I believe dropping to eighth may actually help him...takes some of the pressure off.

Biff Pocoroba
10-08-2012, 01:56 PM
I believe dropping to eighth may actually help him...takes some of the pressure off.


It certainly helps me in that I can view him more by the Cesar Geronimo standard than Pete Rose or Ken Griffey, Sr.

P.E.R#14
10-08-2012, 03:22 PM
When is the last time Stubbs went 3-3, stole 2 bags, and made a game saving catch.

I will save you the time. It has never happened. Drew Stubbs has NEVER gone 3 for 3 and stolen 2 bases. He went 3 for 3 once, and did steal a base vs. Washington last year. That is the only time it has ever come close to happening.

Everything Drew Stubbs has done in the past shows that if he does have a great game, IT IS LUCK! How may games do you apologists need to watch in order to realize he has no business starting in MLB? You sit there and talk about 1 game. What about the hundreds of games he sucks? The Reds have won despite him, not because of him. He is 1 of the 2 worst regular centerfielders in the game, and very well could be the worst. This is not debatable. Could he suddenly become a hero? Sure. They could pull me out of the stands and maybe I could hit a home run. It would be luck, and you know that because I suck at baseball. Yet it could happen. Doesn't mean it would be a good move. Same thing with Stubbs. Every single thing we have seen for more than a year says he sucks at baseball, at least on the MLB level. If he succeeds at a crucial point, heck yes it's luck. He has proven over and over again any success he might have is luck. His stats are beyond brutal at this point, and anything he does will go against all common sense and reason. It would be complete luck. So my only hope is to believe in Leprechauns, fairies, and Drew Stubbs 3 for 3 nights with 2 stolen bases. The sad part is none of them exist, yet you and Dusty keep believing in them.

I am no fan of Drew Stubbs (read through any thread since April named Stubbs or Heisey), but to say it is luck and that you have a better chance of being pulled from the stands and hitting a home run is embarrassing. Yes, I would love a new centerfielder, but c'mon man?
Go Reds!!

DocRed
10-08-2012, 06:11 PM
He nailed the triple. Only one K so far.

Beat out a double play too! Looks like I was dead on! ;)

bigredmechanism
10-08-2012, 07:14 PM
When is the last time Stubbs went 3-3, stole 2 bags, and made a game saving catch.

I will save you the time. It has never happened. Drew Stubbs has NEVER gone 3 for 3 and stolen 2 bases. He went 3 for 3 once, and did steal a base vs. Washington last year. That is the only time it has ever come close to happening.

Everything Drew Stubbs has done in the past shows that if he does have a great game, IT IS LUCK! How may games do you apologists need to watch in order to realize he has no business starting in MLB? You sit there and talk about 1 game. What about the hundreds of games he sucks? The Reds have won despite him, not because of him. He is 1 of the 2 worst regular centerfielders in the game, and very well could be the worst. This is not debatable. Could he suddenly become a hero? Sure. They could pull me out of the stands and maybe I could hit a home run. It would be luck, and you know that because I suck at baseball. Yet it could happen. Doesn't mean it would be a good move. Same thing with Stubbs. Every single thing we have seen for more than a year says he sucks at baseball, at least on the MLB level. If he succeeds at a crucial point, heck yes it's luck. He has proven over and over again any success he might have is luck. His stats are beyond brutal at this point, and anything he does will go against all common sense and reason. It would be complete luck. So my only hope is to believe in Leprechauns, fairies, and Drew Stubbs 3 for 3 nights with 2 stolen bases. The sad part is none of them exist, yet you and Dusty keep believing in them.

Oh, I didn't realize that. Nevermind, then. Debate is over.

scott91575
10-08-2012, 07:40 PM
I am no fan of Drew Stubbs (read through any thread since April named Stubbs or Heisey), but to say it is luck and that you have a better chance of being pulled from the stands and hitting a home run is embarrassing. Yes, I would love a new centerfielder, but c'mon man?
Go Reds!!

Perhaps you should read it again and think about your post. First of all, I didn't state I had a better chance of hitting a home run. I said I could, but it would be highly unlikely and luck.

Drew Stubbs has shown through hundreds of at bats that he is not a good hitter. If he suddenly hits like Willy Mays, it will be luck. It won't be because someone made a great call and knew he was due.

bigredmechanism
10-08-2012, 09:47 PM
I am no fan of Drew Stubbs (read through any thread since April named Stubbs or Heisey), but to say it is luck and that you have a better chance of being pulled from the stands and hitting a home run is embarrassing. Yes, I would love a new centerfielder, but c'mon man?
Go Reds!!

+1 Totally agree with you, it is embarrassing.

scott91575
10-08-2012, 11:45 PM
+1 Totally agree with you, it is embarrassing.

I agree, the reading comprehension on this board is embarrassing.

bigredmechanism
10-09-2012, 12:46 AM
I agree, the reading comprehension on this board is embarrassing.

I think the reading comprehension is perfectly fine, though I agree with P.E.R. 14 that Joe Schmoe thinking he can hit home runs by manner of luck (comparing himself to a major league centerfielder, no less) is embarrassing.

I imagine it would take the average person several thousand at bats before they could hit a lucky homerun off of a MLB pitcher, if they could even do it at all.

scott91575
10-09-2012, 01:53 AM
I think the reading comprehension is perfectly fine, though I agree with P.E.R. 14 that Joe Schmoe thinking he can hit home runs by manner of luck (comparing himself to a major league centerfielder, no less) is embarrassing.

I imagine it would take the average person several thousand at bats before they could hit a lucky homerun off of a MLB pitcher, if they could even do it at all.

It was stating that if I was pulled out of the stands, and actually hit a home run, it would be luck. It is an example of an extreme case. I am not saying I am like Drew Stubbs or as good as Drew Stubbs. I was making the point just because someone does something that actually works out does not mean it was a good call or some well thought out plan. That is why I used that example. Using an extreme example to make a point is not uncommon.

Anyway, we are talking about a guy who OPS'd around .600 for the year. He OPS'd under .400 in Sept/Oct. Just think about that for a second. Under freaking .400 for over a month. Then people (or person) are saying if he succeeds in the playoffs it's not luck, but a good call by Dusty. No, in fact, that is damn near the definition of luck born out of stubbornness. You take something that has proven to be poor over a long stretch of time, with statistically relevant samples, and still continue to do it hoping things change is not only insanity but if it works out is a clear example of luck. Can it happen? Sure. Yet it if does happen, from everything we know, it will be luck. There is way too much data to think otherwise.

Drew could maybe one day turn it around. Yet after all we have seen this year, the thought he will suddenly turn it around in this year's playoffs is not a sound idea. If he suddenly turns into a star in the playoffs, it will indeed be luck. That has been my only point all along.

RedsBrick
10-09-2012, 07:14 AM
You make some valid points. If Stubbs remains consistent throughout the playoffs, and clearly that remains to be seen, I dont believe that will be luck. There's no question in my mind that Stubbs has the tools....unfortunately he's gotten progressively worse over the course of the past three years...but he does have the tools. So if he gets it done during the playoffs I will believe it's not luck but him using his talents to string good games together.

He's done it before...like the massive hot-streak he ripped off the 10 games before the trading deadline this year (after which he went completely in the tank). So I'm not going to be fooled again that he's turned the corner...but he does have the ability.

I do know this....when he's in centerfield and the ball's hit in the air in that general vicinity....it's an out.


It was stating that if I was pulled out of the stands, and actually hit a home run, it would be luck. It is an example of an extreme case. I am not saying I am like Drew Stubbs or as good as Drew Stubbs. I was making the point just because someone does something that actually works out does not mean it was a good call or some well thought out plan. That is why I used that example. Using an extreme example to make a point is not uncommon.

Anyway, we are talking about a guy who OPS'd around .600 for the year. He OPS'd under .400 in Sept/Oct. Just think about that for a second. Under freaking .400 for over a month. Then people (or person) are saying if he succeeds in the playoffs it's not luck, but a good call by Dusty. No, in fact, that is damn near the definition of luck born out of stubbornness. You take something that has proven to be poor over a long stretch of time, with statistically relevant samples, and still continue to do it hoping things change is not only insanity but if it works out is a clear example of luck. Can it happen? Sure. Yet it if does happen, from everything we know, it will be luck. There is way too much data to think otherwise.

Drew could maybe one day turn it around. Yet after all we have seen this year, the thought he will suddenly turn it around in this year's playoffs is not a sound idea. If he suddenly turns into a star in the playoffs, it will indeed be luck. That has been my only point all along.

muethibp
10-09-2012, 09:32 AM
It was stating that if I was pulled out of the stands, and actually hit a home run, it would be luck. It is an example of an extreme case. I am not saying I am like Drew Stubbs or as good as Drew Stubbs. I was making the point just because someone does something that actually works out does not mean it was a good call or some well thought out plan. That is why I used that example. Using an extreme example to make a point is not uncommon.

Anyway, we are talking about a guy who OPS'd around .600 for the year. He OPS'd under .400 in Sept/Oct. Just think about that for a second. Under freaking .400 for over a month. Then people (or person) are saying if he succeeds in the playoffs it's not luck, but a good call by Dusty. No, in fact, that is damn near the definition of luck born out of stubbornness. You take something that has proven to be poor over a long stretch of time, with statistically relevant samples, and still continue to do it hoping things change is not only insanity but if it works out is a clear example of luck. Can it happen? Sure. Yet it if does happen, from everything we know, it will be luck. There is way too much data to think otherwise.

Drew could maybe one day turn it around. Yet after all we have seen this year, the thought he will suddenly turn it around in this year's playoffs is not a sound idea. If he suddenly turns into a star in the playoffs, it will indeed be luck. That has been my only point all along.

In honor of the 25th anniversary of the Princess Bride, I will tell you that the word you keep using - luck - doesn't mean what you think it means.

smixsell
10-09-2012, 10:35 AM
Subbs' centerfield play in SF was fantastic. He was getting a GREAT jump on everything hit. Ever since moving to eighth in the lineup, he is more relaxed and his whole game is being helped as a result. He played CF with some serious SWAG in SF. Great thing to see. :beerme: Way to go Drew, keep it up! :)

alwaysawarrior
10-09-2012, 10:44 AM
Subbs' centerfield play in SF was fantastic. He was getting a GREAT jump on everything hit. Ever since moving to eighth in the lineup, he is more relaxed and his whole game is being helped as a result. He played CF with some serious SWAG in SF. Great thing to see. :beerme: Way to go Drew, keep it up! :)

I agree he has looked much more comfortable since being moved. And, not that it matters, but I am much more comfortable with him there!

scott91575
10-11-2012, 03:59 PM
In honor of the 25th anniversary of the Princess Bride, I will tell you that the word you keep using - luck - doesn't mean what you think it means.

and I don't think you are as clever as you think you are.

Stubbs is terrible. He has 1 at bat to salvage pretty much the worst year out of any regular center fielder in baseball. Good luck with that Stubbs, because as we all have found out, any time you do something good it is luck. Perhaps closing your eyes might help, because keeping them open certainly doesn't.

scott91575
10-11-2012, 04:18 PM
Oops, my bad. He gets 0 at bats to redeem himself. It only took a whole season and almost 5 playoff games of complete incompetence at the plate for Dusty to finally sit him.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Oops, my bad. He gets 0 at bats to redeem himself. It only took a whole season and almost 5 playoff games of complete incompetence at the plate for Dusty to finally sit him.

Typical Dusty about 5 moves behind everyone else..

Ironman92
10-11-2012, 11:15 PM
BTW...the only ridiculous string everyone kept raving about

Drew Stubbs scored a run in each of the last two games.

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