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medford
10-08-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm sure some on here just cursed me, but if we're getting into the "excellance" of the 1st 2 games, might as well give some props to Dusty.

Starting Stubbs in Center....Excellant call, and saved some runs.
Phillips continuing to bat leadoff despite late season slump there, has done wonders so far.
Starting Arroyo in game 2, who could have done better?
Remaining cool under pressure when his Ace departs after 8 pitchers.

2 games in and he has the golden touch so far.

I worried that Cozart was hurt when I saw a glimpse of Valdez walking out to the on deck circle. Then I realized he was starting to give his starters some rest/work in the guys on the bench to get them some "experience" and I seriously questioned it. Sure you drop a 9-0 lead and I'm not going to falt anyone other than the pitcher(s) and God, but the playoffs didn't seem to be the time to work in backups like Valdez and Cairo. Turns out I was wrong, and in hindsight a great move by Dusty.

He's worked every pitcher in a game so far (not by design due to Cueto's injury I'm sure) w/ the exception of Simon. Every reliever is fresh heading into tomorrow, every pitche w/ the exception of Simon has been thru the first wave of playoff nerves.

Bronson could have gone 8 or 9 last night, but after the long inning, pulling him after 7 probably leaves him fresh enough to pitch on 3 days rest in game 5 if needed. Not knowing where Cueto stands health wise, that could be a huge decision.

Kudos to Dusty, keep on keeping on.

reds44
10-08-2012, 01:02 PM
I don't think it's been stated enough how well he handled the Cueto situation. To keep his cool under pressure and put LeCure in to let Latos get as close to his normal pre-start warmups in was a great move by him. That's what managing is all about.

OldRightHander
10-08-2012, 01:10 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121007/COL03/310070099/Doc-Let-s-give-Dusty-Baker-credit-Game-1

Daugherty article.

Quote of the article:


Baker remains scapegoated on the North Side of Chicago, but opinions of Cubs fans are easily discarded. I mean, they’re Cubs fans.

CySeymour
10-08-2012, 01:14 PM
I don't think it's been stated enough how well he handled the Cueto situation. To keep his cool under pressure and put LeCure in to let Latos get as close to his normal pre-start warmups in was a great move by him. That's what managing is all about.

Agreed. Dusty played that situation like a pro without any panic.

RedEye
10-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I think you mean "Excellence" -- but nice post. :)

medford
10-08-2012, 03:53 PM
I think you mean "Excellence" -- but nice post. :)

Yes, you'd be right. Grammar Hammer my hindparts away :)

RedEye
10-08-2012, 03:54 PM
Yes, you'd be right. Grammar Hammer my hindparts away :)

Sorry to be that guy. ;)

bucksfan2
10-08-2012, 04:07 PM
I think Dusty has been very good in the first two playoff games.

Moving Stubbs to 8th but keeping him in CF in SF was a good decision.

Rolen has made some very good defensive plays and been an asset in the post season. Many people wanted him benched for Frazier but so far Rolen has been worth his keep.

I can't imagine a better handling of the situation in game one than what Dusty did. There was no panic, get LeCure in the game and get Latos warmed up.

His little trip to the mound when Chapman was pitching was well timed. It was almost a "get your #$%^ together, now is not the time to be screwing around" talk that worked.

paulrichjr
10-08-2012, 11:32 PM
Seems like everyone had a reason why Baker was wrong about who should pitch Game 1 and Game 2...Baker had experience with the park. I wonder how many thought of that?

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39600610/

Reds manager Dusty Baker cited AT&T Park's forgiving nature toward pitchers as a reason he tapped Arroyo for Game 2 there. His tendency to serve homers was less likely to hurt him. When Baker managed the Giants, he said, Barry Bonds would counsel pitcher Jason Schmidt to let go of any inhibitions and "trust the park.” Schmidt, however, had a classic delivery and scorching fastball. He didn't have Arroyo's quirks or his capacity to make teammates smirk in awe or strike a pose of condescension.

Johnny Footstool
10-09-2012, 12:33 PM
It seems like we're grasping at things to praise Dusty about.

Starting Arroyo between Cueto and Latos wasn't all that clever -- break up the power arms in a short series, keep the other team off-balance. But I'll grant him some credit, because this wasn't an obvious move.

Why does Dusty deserve praise for finally moving Drew Stubbs to the 8-hole *after refusing to do so for most of the season*? Smart move, Dusty. Way to finally come to your senses and do the obvious.

Working every pitcher into a game? Well, aside from the necessity of using the bullpen in Game 1, is it really a "great move" to let two underworked mop-up men throw an inning each in a blowout? Is that praise-worthy?

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. I just don't think there is much credit due here.

Scrap Irony
10-09-2012, 12:39 PM
It seems like we're grasping at things to praise Dusty about...

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. I just don't think there is much credit due here.

I'd argue that a 2-0 game lead and almost all questionable decisions made working out in his favor tend to deserve credit and/ or praise.

Dude's done good work, as evidenced by the success of the team he's in charge of.

lollipopcurve
10-09-2012, 12:42 PM
It's a results oriented business. The team has had great results this year. Baker deserves praise just like the players, the coaches and the front office do. People will parcel it out as they subjectively see it, but I don't see how you can begrudge the manager a chunk of credit.

mdccclxix
10-09-2012, 02:04 PM
I feel really good when I think about the fact Dusty Baker is in charge of this postseason run. The guy is totally committed to winning a championship and so are his players.

Johnny Footstool
10-09-2012, 02:08 PM
I'd argue that a 2-0 game lead and almost all questionable decisions made working out in his favor tend to deserve credit and/ or praise.

Dude's done good work, as evidenced by the success of the team he's in charge of.

The players have done good work, and deserve the lion's share of the credit. Their success has masked a lot of Dusty's shortcomings (like having two terrible OBP hitters batting at the top of the lineup all season).

You can't just heap praise based on results without evaluating the process.

Kc61
10-09-2012, 02:20 PM
The players have done good work, and deserve the lion's share of the credit. Their success has masked a lot of Dusty's shortcomings (like having two terrible OBP hitters batting at the top of the lineup all season).

You can't just heap praise based on results without evaluating the process.

Exactly which players should Dusty have hit at the top of the lineup? Hanigan, is this the big criticism? That he didn't hit a slow footed catcher first or second? Rather weak criticism I would say. He moved Phillips to lead off as soon as he could.

I don't agree with all of Dusty's propensities as a manager, but I only know of one individual who would manage exactly like me -- and that's me.

Have there been previous Reds teams Dusty managed which SHOULD have been in the playoffs but weren't? I'd say no.

He has done a superb job this year. Doesn't mean I would have approached it exactly the same way. But IMO the team outperformed its talent and much of it because of Dusty.

He has handled the pitching staff superbly. He has handled the injury situations superbly. He has not ignored the hitting weaknesses, but has moved players around to try and overcome them.

I don't like all the bunting and I think he leaves starters in a tad too long sometimes. But it's a small price to pay. The guy has done a great job.

Chip R
10-09-2012, 02:22 PM
Considering that a lot of fans and media criticized Dusty for not only pitching Arroyo in Game 2 but criticized him for pitching him at all and criticized Dusty for starting Rolen instead of Frazier at 3rd on Sunday, I think a lot of those same fans and media may want to step back and admit they just may not know more than Dusty after all.

It's a results game to be sure. But give credit where and when credit is due. If Jay Bruce hits a 3-0 pitch out for a home run in the bottom of the 9th inning to win the game for the Reds, are people actually going to criticize him and the manager for not taking on 3-0?

traderumor
10-09-2012, 02:22 PM
The players have done good work, and deserve the lion's share of the credit. Their success has masked a lot of Dusty's shortcomings (like having two terrible OBP hitters batting at the top of the lineup all season).

You can't just heap praise based on results without evaluating the process.Shuffle the cards, likely similar results. The team does not have two top of the order guys on the roster, so what was he supposed to do? I know, Ryan Hanigan as folks blindly look at high OBP.

Dusty has managed the bullpen masterfully all season and helped the team navigate through losing their star for 1/3 of the season by performing better than they have with him. Sorry, your criticisms sound like sour grapes and nitpicking at this stage.

lollipopcurve
10-09-2012, 02:33 PM
Here's a team that won 97 games and is on the verge of playing in the NLCS, and you'll still get plenty of posters giving Baker and Jocketty Bs and Cs.

Critics know everything.

Superdude
10-09-2012, 02:40 PM
Shuffle the cards, likely similar results. The team does not have two top of the order guys on the roster, so what was he supposed to do? I know, Ryan Hanigan as folks blindly look at high OBP.

I can't understand this criticism either. He's maybe had a past of dumb lineup decisions, but this team isn't exactly laden with great top of the order options. You could certainly tweak it, but I don't think flip flopping Hanigan and Cozart is the answer to all our problems.

OldRightHander
10-09-2012, 02:43 PM
If they win it all this year, ten years from now most fans will have forgotten all about the lineups and Dusty will be enshrined in most fans' hearts right next to Lou and Sparky.

Johnny Footstool
10-09-2012, 03:34 PM
Here's a team that won 97 games and is on the verge of playing in the NLCS, and you'll still get plenty of posters giving Baker and Jocketty Bs and Cs.

Critics know everything.

Jocketty gets an A. He put together a pitching staff so deep it was Dusty-proof. He put all the pieces in place, and made some significant improvements to last year's roster.

I won't apologize for not jumping on the bandwagon full of Dusty acolytes, though.

traderumor
10-09-2012, 04:26 PM
Jocketty gets an A. He put together a pitching staff so deep it was Dusty-proof. He put all the pieces in place, and made some significant improvements to last year's roster.

I won't apologize for not jumping on the bandwagon full of Dusty acolytes, though.What about those who have held out all along that he's a good manager, all things considered, which would be my category? Am I just blind in one eye and can't see out of the other?

We could start "the excellence of Bryan Price" thread so I could go digging out the calls for his head last year, now that he has reached genius status in these parts as well. Then we could see some real leaps.

mdccclxix
10-09-2012, 04:50 PM
Jocketty gets an A. He put together a pitching staff so deep it was Dusty-proof. He put all the pieces in place, and made some significant improvements to last year's roster.

I won't apologize for not jumping on the bandwagon full of Dusty acolytes, though.

Dusty's critics are often insulting to the man...I find that to be the most corrosive aspect to all this. People just like to take shots at him, I guess it's his cartoon name and unapologetic style. Reds fans haven't been so lucky in years. Dusty is a HOF manager, and his critics need to get a grip.

I wish the local media would actually kill this issue, but it is still divisive - so they won't. Lance could just come out and say to everyone the blatant and obvious fact - "You are not smarter than Dusty Baker. Period." I guess that might help everyone clear this up.

lollipopcurve
10-09-2012, 05:16 PM
I won't apologize for not jumping on the bandwagon full of Dusty acolytes, though.

If anything, the religious imagery should be applied to the haters. That is, anti-Dustyism is an ideology that, despite plenty of evidence that he can guide a team to excellent results, preaches that as a result of his having espoused certain "old school beliefs" he can never be considered a good manager.

Scrap Irony
10-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Baker, IMO, has built a pen out of spare parts. He tinkered early, moving Marshall from closer to set-up. He used LeCure and Simon almost perfectly. His starters survived all year and were never overworked. No pen arm struggled with overuse. The only questionable arm used all year (for any length of time) was Ondrusek. While Jocketty deserves a lion's share of credit (as do the players), so too does Baker.

Out of two rookie starters (Cozart and Frazier) and a rookie reserve (Mesoraco), he found All-Star level production at two spots. He also found a way to weather a six-week loss of his MVP candidate and not only survive, but blow open the NL Central. He was able to also weather injuries to his All-Star 2B, his starting 3B (three different injuries), and his LF (who, btw, found renewed success after three years of struggle under other managers in other cities).

And the team he managed won 97 games.

What more do you want?

edabbs44
10-09-2012, 07:05 PM
Jocketty gets an A. He put together a pitching staff so deep it was Dusty-proof. He put all the pieces in place, and made some significant improvements to last year's roster.

I won't apologize for not jumping on the bandwagon full of Dusty acolytes, though.

Which would be amazing as many (unsure if you are in this population) were destroying Walt early in the season, the roster was completely flawed, no lefties, bench was awful, Chapman should be starting, etc.

Be that as it may, many are quick to jump on Dusty when things don't go right so why doesn't he get praise when things work out?

Johnny Footstool
10-09-2012, 10:44 PM
I do love how this thread went from "Dusty did a great job managing the two games in San Francisco" to "Dusty is a HOF manager and anyone who disagrees is just spouting sour grapes."

Caveat Emperor
10-09-2012, 10:51 PM
I can't wait to see this thread tomorrow after Mike Leake pitches. Grab your popcorn.

Brutus
10-09-2012, 11:56 PM
I can't wait to see this thread tomorrow after Mike Leake pitches. Grab your popcorn.

You're really putting yourself out there aren't you?

mdccclxix
10-10-2012, 11:07 AM
I do love how this thread went from "Dusty did a great job managing the two games in San Francisco" to "Dusty is a HOF manager and anyone who disagrees is just spouting sour grapes."

There is a mixture of players, managers and front office people that have combined to create this awesome team. I don't know why people try to rob Dusty of his role in the success, the results. You can only extract so much before it makes you look like you're slanting things in a biased way. Everyone deserves credit in as much as the credit is theirs to claim - and again, it's not cut and dry. But, ask the players, ask the GM, ask the owner, Dusty Baker deserves a lot of credit. Leaving him out in the cold is sour grapes.

Homer Bailey
10-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Is the decision not to walk Arias being talked about anywhere else?

It's going to sound like second guessing but.... what the actual heck? I wouldn't have done it until the passed ball, but with the pitcher's spot on deck, why in the world would you not walk Arias with first open!? You either make Romo bat, or the Giants use their LAST pinch hitter, AND Romo has to come out of the game. I was screaming at the television. Has anyone asked Baker about this yet??

Scrap Irony
10-10-2012, 01:09 PM
I do love how this thread went from "Dusty did a great job managing the two games in San Francisco" to "Dusty is a HOF manager and anyone who disagrees is just spouting sour grapes."

You'll have to show my where this discussion has taken place. I can't seem to find it on Redszone at all.

OldRightHander
10-10-2012, 01:33 PM
Is the decision not to walk Arias being talked about anywhere else?

It's going to sound like second guessing but.... what the actual heck? I wouldn't have done it until the passed ball, but with the pitcher's spot on deck, why in the world would you not walk Arias with first open!? You either make Romo bat, or the Giants use their LAST pinch hitter, AND Romo has to come out of the game. I was screaming at the television. Has anyone asked Baker about this yet??

We were saying that in the stands last night. The Giants had a pinch hitter in the on deck circle and then pulled him back after they went ahead.

Tom Servo
10-10-2012, 01:43 PM
I still don't get pulling Chapman after 1 inning more than anything else.

Johnny Footstool
10-10-2012, 02:54 PM
You'll have to show my where this discussion has taken place. I can't seem to find it on Redszone at all.

Okay.


I'm sure some on here just cursed me, but if we're getting into the "excellance" of the 1st 2 games, might as well give some props to Dusty.

Starting Stubbs in Center....Excellant call, and saved some runs.
Phillips continuing to bat leadoff despite late season slump there, has done wonders so far.
Starting Arroyo in game 2, who could have done better?
Remaining cool under pressure when his Ace departs after 8 pitchers.

2 games in and he has the golden touch so far.


Dusty has managed the bullpen masterfully all season and helped the team navigate through losing their star for 1/3 of the season by performing better than they have with him. Sorry, your criticisms sound like sour grapes and nitpicking at this stage.



Dusty's critics are often insulting to the man...I find that to be the most corrosive aspect to all this. People just like to take shots at him, I guess it's his cartoon name and unapologetic style. Reds fans haven't been so lucky in years. Dusty is a HOF manager, and his critics need to get a grip.

medford
10-10-2012, 03:39 PM
Is the decision not to walk Arias being talked about anywhere else?

It's going to sound like second guessing but.... what the actual heck? I wouldn't have done it until the passed ball, but with the pitcher's spot on deck, why in the world would you not walk Arias with first open!? You either make Romo bat, or the Giants use their LAST pinch hitter, AND Romo has to come out of the game. I was screaming at the television. Has anyone asked Baker about this yet??

Agree completely, I think it was a mistake on Dusty's part. Not only that, but it would have set up an out at every base, meaning after the bobble, Rolen could have come home (may have been easier as he was charging the ball)

Chip R
10-10-2012, 03:58 PM
I still don't get pulling Chapman after 1 inning more than anything else.

I get it. You pitch him 2 innings on Tuesday, he may not be able to pitch on Wednesday if you need him.

Tom Servo
10-10-2012, 04:07 PM
I get it. You pitch him 2 innings on Tuesday, he may not be able to pitch on Wednesday if you need him.
In a game like last night where if you win there is no Wednesday or Thursday, I follow the sage advice of The Grass Roots

Grass Roots - Let's Live For Today - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnFZsrs32Co)

Wonderful Monds
10-10-2012, 06:42 PM
May have jumped the gun a bit on this thread.

westofyou
10-10-2012, 06:43 PM
In a game like last night where if you win there is no Wednesday or Thursday, I follow the sage advice of The Grass Roots

Grass Roots - Let's Live For Today - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnFZsrs32Co)

Ya know Creed from The Office is in that band

Tom Servo
10-10-2012, 06:48 PM
I'm just glad we saved Chapman for today.

Tom Servo
10-10-2012, 07:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/u3G5r.png
http://i.imgur.com/DLdyS.png

Dusty got out managed today. And that's not to say Bochy is a genius because he's far from it, nor is it to say that this loss is completely on Dusty because it's not, but everybody knew Leake and Zito both sucked. Bochy was willing to concede the point far earlier, realizing that even if Zito had gotten out of the jam that got him replaced that he wouldn't have magically stopped sucking.

reds44
10-10-2012, 07:45 PM
He shouldn't be back if we lose tomorrow.

klw
10-10-2012, 07:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/u3G5r.png
http://i.imgur.com/DLdyS.png

Dusty got out managed today. And that's not to say Bochy is a genius because he's far from it, nor is it to say that this loss is completely on Dusty because it's not, but everybody knew Leake and Zito both sucked. Bochy was willing to concede the point far earlier, realizing that even if Zito had gotten out of the jam that got him replaced that he wouldn't have magically stopped sucking.

Bochy had Lincecum in the pen. Who was dusty going to pull out of the hat? Simon was his only real long guy and he is 3 innings tops

Tom Servo
10-10-2012, 07:50 PM
Bochy had Lincecum in the pen. Who was dusty going to pull out of the hat? Simon was his only real long guy and he is 3 innings tops
Simon has had a better year than Lincecum.

fearofpopvol1
10-10-2012, 07:58 PM
Bochy had Lincecum in the pen. Who was dusty going to pull out of the hat? Simon was his only real long guy and he is 3 innings tops

LeCure for sure. He's not Lincecum, but he had a great year and I think would've outperformed Leake.

klw
10-10-2012, 08:14 PM
LeCure for sure. He's not Lincecum, but he had a great year and I think would've outperformed Leake.
Lecure did have a great season but not to overlook is that he only went 1 2/3 in game 1 and did have to escape with the bases loaded in his full inning. The concern I had coming into this, and I am a huge Leake fan and apologist, is that Leake does not seem to pitch well on extra rest. For evidence of this I would point to his last starts of his rookie season after they skipped him at times to give him more rest and spare him innings. They never would have done it but I would have preferred Cingrani today.

fearofpopvol1
10-11-2012, 12:51 AM
Lecure did have a great season but not to overlook is that he only went 1 2/3 in game 1 and did have to escape with the bases loaded in his full inning. The concern I had coming into this, and I am a huge Leake fan and apologist, is that Leake does not seem to pitch well on extra rest. For evidence of this I would point to his last starts of his rookie season after they skipped him at times to give him more rest and spare him innings. They never would have done it but I would have preferred Cingrani today.

The thing is, LeCure didn't have much time to warm up in game 1. Today, when he had proper warm up time, he was fine. And it's doubtful he was tired. I'm sure LeCure could've gone 5 before turning it over to the bullpen.