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mattfeet
10-09-2012, 08:43 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2012/10/08/cardinals-jaime-garcias-status-uncertain-with-shoulder-injury/

"Cardinals starter Jaime Garcia underwent an MRI on his left shoulder Monday after lasting just two innings in Game 2 and it appears he will be placed on the disabled list."


Joe Strauss ‏@JoeStrauss

Garcia to be removed from postseason roster, replaced before Wednesday's Game 3. Several teammates furious over situation.

This is unfortunate for the Cards and awful timing. I wonder why teammates are so upset?


-Matt

cumberlandreds
10-09-2012, 08:50 AM
The comments on Twitter are saying they are upset because he didn't tell anyone he was hurting. But I think that is just speculation. That means Garcia is out of the NLCS too. Lynn, I assume, would go into his spot.

mattfeet
10-09-2012, 09:24 AM
Cards down "but not out".

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/st-louis-cardinals-jaime-garcia-injured-but-rotation-still-strong-with-lance-lynn-100812

Vottomatic
10-09-2012, 09:31 AM
Cardinal players are childish.

Garcia easily could have thought it was minor and was trying to tough it out.

How is Carpenter going to explain this to his son?

CySeymour
10-09-2012, 09:57 AM
As a starter, I think Lynn gives them just as good a chance as Garcia does. The problem is it shortens their bullpen.

westofyou
10-09-2012, 10:08 AM
Cardinal players are childish.

Garcia easily could have thought it was minor and was trying to tough it out.

How is Carpenter going to explain this to his son?

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/garcia-has-mri-on-shoulder/article_9819a3f3-bbb1-5b19-b6b0-f32c23400d5c.html


Several teammates were incensed to learn that Garcia started such a monumental game if indeed compromised physically. A faction within the organization has remained skeptical about the severity of Garcia's condition despite a June diagnosis that he was suffering from an impingement and strain that required more than two months' rest and rehabilitation.

First baseman Allen Craig, responding to a question unrelated to Garcia, called the game "the closest thing to a must-win we've played this year."

Mozeliak termed the club's ignorance of Garcia's most recent issue as "frustrating."

Asked if his current situation is similar to the one in June that forced him to the disabled list, Garcia said, "It's different. Obviously the last couple weeks I've felt the best I've felt in a long time. It's been really good. I don't know what happened. I don't know when it happened. I'm just hoping it's not as bad as last time."

traderumor
10-09-2012, 10:11 AM
Wow, throw that teammate right under the bus. I'm most stunned at the GM making a public statement of any kind, esp. one that is clearly derogatory toward the player.

I know they already hate Johnny Cueto, but imagine if he was their pitcher Saturday night. He would have really been roasted.

The Operator
10-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Ah yes one of the classic baseball double standards. If a jerk like Chris Carpenter hides an injury and tries to pitch through it he's called a "warrior" and gushed over by everyone involved. Jaime Garcia? Not the same treatment I guess.

And I'm far from a Jaime Garcia fan, I just hate double standards.

traderumor
10-09-2012, 10:18 AM
Ah yes one of the classic baseball double standards. If a jerk like Chris Carpenter hides an injury and tries to pitch through it he's called a "warrior" and gushed over by everyone involved. Jaime Garcia? Not the same treatment I guess.

And I'm far from a Jaime Garcia fan, I just hate double standards.I'd take Garcia off their hands, straight up for Leake, assuming Garcia can pass a physical.

Chip R
10-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Ah yes one of the classic baseball double standards. If a jerk like Chris Carpenter hides an injury and tries to pitch through it he's called a "warrior" and gushed over by everyone involved. Jaime Garcia? Not the same treatment I guess.

And I'm far from a Jaime Garcia fan, I just hate double standards.

Or when Chris Duncan played when injured and was lionized and Scott Rolen was ran out of town when he did the same.

OesterPoster
10-09-2012, 10:29 AM
Might sound crazy, but it hurts them at the plate too. Small samples, but in 2012, Garcia has an OPS of .686. Lance Lynn in a similar number of ABs, OPS of .154.

PuffyPig
10-09-2012, 11:37 AM
I can't see how Craig can refer to the game against Washington "as close to a must win that we've had all season" when they just played Atlanta in a game that was clearly "a must win".

traderumor
10-09-2012, 12:47 PM
I can't see how Craig can refer to the game against Washington "as close to a must win that we've had all season" when they just played Atlanta in a game that was clearly "a must win".Maybe Garcia could question Craig's toughness for being on the DL so much during the season and in his career? :D

Vottomatic
10-09-2012, 12:50 PM
Ah yes one of the classic baseball double standards. If a jerk like Chris Carpenter hides an injury and tries to pitch through it he's called a "warrior" and gushed over by everyone involved. Jaime Garcia? Not the same treatment I guess.

And I'm far from a Jaime Garcia fan, I just hate double standards.

Exactly.

RedsManRick
10-09-2012, 01:01 PM
I hate when athletes pull this crap. You create an environment that penalizes guys for not playing through pain and then you rip a guy when he does it and it turns out he's more injured than he thought. You can't have it both ways.

If you want to rip somebody, rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff.

traderumor
10-09-2012, 01:09 PM
I hate when athletes pull this crap. You create an environment that penalizes guys for not playing through pain and then you rip a guy when he does it and it turns out he's more injured than he thought. You can't have it both ways.

If you want to rip somebody, rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff.The funny part of it is that it sounds like Garcia was surprised as well, the reaction is as if he knew and tried anyhow. I agree with you completely. It is probably showing some internal personal issue with Garcia since they obviously don't have his back.

MikeThierry
10-09-2012, 03:58 PM
I hate when athletes pull this crap. You create an environment that penalizes guys for not playing through pain and then you rip a guy when he does it and it turns out he's more injured than he thought. You can't have it both ways.

If you want to rip somebody, rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff.

Why would you rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff for not knowing about an injury when there was no evidence of the injury? Is Mike Matheny supposed to be clairvoyant?

I don't mind a pitcher trying to pitch through an injury. However, I think it's a different situation when a pitcher is hiding their injury and it isn't known to the club. Someone mentioned it earlier about Chris Carpenter pitching through an injury. I would still question the Cardinals pitching an injured Chris Carpenter out there but at the same time, Carpenter doesn't hide his injuries. This allows the club to have other viable options available if there is a sign of trouble.

I don't see the issue with team mates and the GM being angry in this situation.

PuffyPig
10-09-2012, 04:05 PM
.... Carpenter doesn't hide his injuries......


Except from his son, with whom he experiences a comunication problem with, or so I gather......

traderumor
10-09-2012, 04:43 PM
Why would you rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff for not knowing about an injury when there was no evidence of the injury? Is Mike Matheny supposed to be clairvoyant?

I don't mind a pitcher trying to pitch through an injury. However, I think it's a different situation when a pitcher is hiding their injury and it isn't known to the club. Someone mentioned it earlier about Chris Carpenter pitching through an injury. I would still question the Cardinals pitching an injured Chris Carpenter out there but at the same time, Carpenter doesn't hide his injuries. This allows the club to have other viable options available if there is a sign of trouble.

I don't see the issue with team mates and the GM being angry in this situation.Because from what I read, Garcia wasn't sure himself what was going on. Regardless, to throw this kind of internal stuff out there in the press is bush league, especially in the middle of the playoffs. Besides throwing your teammate under the bus, you also have the possibility of management covering their respective hind ends. Of course, I'm sure there are 100 reasons why this is exactly how a team should handle this situation in the "We Invented the Game" Cardinals Handbook.

Vottomatic
10-09-2012, 05:48 PM
Why would you rip Matheny and the Cards medical staff for not knowing about an injury when there was no evidence of the injury? Is Mike Matheny supposed to be clairvoyant?

I don't mind a pitcher trying to pitch through an injury. However, I think it's a different situation when a pitcher is hiding their injury and it isn't known to the club. Someone mentioned it earlier about Chris Carpenter pitching through an injury. I would still question the Cardinals pitching an injured Chris Carpenter out there but at the same time, Carpenter doesn't hide his injuries. This allows the club to have other viable options available if there is a sign of trouble.

I don't see the issue with team mates and the GM being angry in this situation.

Because of numerous things going on here:

1. There's a double standard where if certain athletes play through pain, they're warriors (as stated so well by someone else earlier). With other athletes, they're supposedly hurting the team for playing with pain. Can't have it both ways. Garcia seemed surprised that his injury was really bad, and was trying to play through pain. He even stated that he'd been feeling better lately.

2. So, Garcia didn't know he was injured badly, and his manager, teammates, and I assume management threw him under the bus with their negative comments.

Way to go team.

MikeThierry
10-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Because from what I read, Garcia wasn't sure himself what was going on. Regardless, to throw this kind of internal stuff out there in the press is bush league, especially in the middle of the playoffs. Besides throwing your teammate under the bus, you also have the possibility of management covering their respective hind ends. Of course, I'm sure there are 100 reasons why this is exactly how a team should handle this situation in the "We Invented the Game" Cardinals Handbook.

So if the press asks, in response to what Garcia said, about the injury, the GM or anyone else for that matter shouldn't say anything? I'm sorry, the kid deserves to be thrown under the bus for his actions. He's a head case and has proven time and time again that he is a mentally weak individual. I don't feel professional athletes should be treated like their in little league and given orange slices at the end of the game. Garcia is a hefty investment by the Cards and if he can't handle it or he can't tell the organization that there might be an injury, it's on him. I might sound cruel but you don't win championships by babying along players. That's what AAA is for. This is the big leagues, act like it.

MikeThierry
10-09-2012, 09:01 PM
Because of numerous things going on here:

1. There's a double standard where if certain athletes play through pain, they're warriors (as stated so well by someone else earlier). With other athletes, they're supposedly hurting the team for playing with pain. Can't have it both ways. Garcia seemed surprised that his injury was really bad, and was trying to play through pain. He even stated that he'd been feeling better lately.

2. So, Garcia didn't know he was injured badly, and his manager, teammates, and I assume management threw him under the bus with their negative comments.

Way to go team.

1. What double standard is going on here? It's not a double standard if the player tells the team of an injury and tries to pitch with it (which a good majority of players do). It's completely different if the player is purposely trying to cover up injury. I would be highly critical of any player who does that because it's ultimately hurting the team.

2. If the guy had a hang nail, he should have let management know instead of almost throwing away game two. Saying that it's frustrating isn't exactly throwing a player under the bus. As a GM, I'm sure it is frustrating. He isn't saying Garcia is a mentally weak individual who will never "get it". That would be throwing someone under the bus.

Oh and how is this throwing a person under the bus:

"First baseman Allen Craig, responding to a question unrelated to Garcia, called the game "the closest thing to a must-win we've played this year."

umm... IT WAS A DAMN QUESTION UNRELATED TO GARCIA. My god.. some of you folks are searching for things when it's not there.

PuffyPig
10-10-2012, 08:16 AM
I'm sorry, the kid deserves to be thrown under the bus for his actions. He's a head case and has proven time and time again that he is a mentally weak individual. I don't feel professional athletes should be treated like their in little league and given orange slices at the end of the game. Garcia is a hefty investment by the Cards and if he can't handle it or he can't tell the organization that there might be an injury, it's on him. I might sound cruel but you don't win championships by babying along players. That's what AAA is for. This is the big leagues, act like it.

So, when Berkman refused a rehabiltaion assignment to the minors, and demanded to play immrediately on the big league roster, was he subject to the same treatment from fans, teammates and management?

To summarize, Lance posted a .179/.333/.308/.641 slsah line in the 2nd half, and came back at a time when the Cards were still in contention for the division title. By the time he went back on the DL, the Cards were 8 games out where they remained, more or less, for the balance of the season.

Did he also deserve to be thrown under the bus.

You could tell from watching him play that he wasn't able to contribute.

PuffyPig
10-10-2012, 08:17 AM
"First baseman Allen Craig, responding to a question unrelated to Garcia, called the game "the closest thing to a must-win we've played this year."



Ahhhh Craig, you just played the one game play-in game with Atlanta. I think that was closer to a "must-win" game.

traderumor
10-10-2012, 12:37 PM
So if the press asks, in response to what Garcia said, about the injury, the GM or anyone else for that matter shouldn't say anything? I'm sorry, the kid deserves to be thrown under the bus for his actions. He's a head case and has proven time and time again that he is a mentally weak individual. I don't feel professional athletes should be treated like their in little league and given orange slices at the end of the game. Garcia is a hefty investment by the Cards and if he can't handle it or he can't tell the organization that there might be an injury, it's on him. I might sound cruel but you don't win championships by babying along players. That's what AAA is for. This is the big leagues, act like it.
I want the code sections from the Cardinals "We Invented the Game" handbook so I can compare to your response, please. I assume you have the electronic version on your computer?

As for your red herrings, the issue isn't "babying," its professionalism and keeping internal strife out of the media spotlight, esp. in a game they won 12-4. If folks had an issue, it could have been handled behind closed doors. Immature, unprofessional types air dirty laundry in public.

MikeThierry
10-10-2012, 02:15 PM
So, when Berkman refused a rehabiltaion assignment to the minors, and demanded to play immrediately on the big league roster, was he subject to the same treatment from fans, teammates and management?

To summarize, Lance posted a .179/.333/.308/.641 slsah line in the 2nd half, and came back at a time when the Cards were still in contention for the division title. By the time he went back on the DL, the Cards were 8 games out where they remained, more or less, for the balance of the season.

Did he also deserve to be thrown under the bus.

You could tell from watching him play that he wasn't able to contribute.

I have no idea why it's so hard to understand this. I'll repeat it. There is a clear difference between a player with a known injury and a player trying to conceal an injury. In Berkman's case, his injury is known. He didn't try to conceal anything. There was enough room on the roster to where he could play in the majors without a rehab assignment. It was something the Cardinals planned for. It's not even close to the same situation as Garcia. Garcia put the team in a bind by not disclosing his injury. Plain and simple. I would give props to Garcia if it was a KNOWN issue that he was trying to gut through. Knowing the problem would have given the Cardinals other viable options and management the ability to keep an eagle eye on him. Garcia failed in this regard.

Chip R
10-18-2012, 10:32 AM
It appears these guys don't know why everyone seems to hate the Cardinals.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18682

PuffyPig
10-18-2012, 10:44 AM
I have no idea why it's so hard to understand this. I'll repeat it. There is a clear difference between a player with a known injury and a player trying to conceal an injury. In Berkman's case, his injury is known. He didn't try to conceal anything. There was enough room on the roster to where he could play in the majors without a rehab assignment. It was something the Cardinals planned for. It's not even close to the same situation as Garcia. Garcia put the team in a bind by not disclosing his injury. Plain and simple. I would give props to Garcia if it was a KNOWN issue that he was trying to gut through. Knowing the problem would have given the Cardinals other viable options and management the ability to keep an eagle eye on him. Garcia failed in this regard.

You may want to re-read my post, prior to you wondering why "it's so hard to undestand this".

I never said they were the exact same situation.

I simply said that Berkman refused a minor league rehabilitation assignment to the detriment of his team. That's the common stream. Both him and Garcia placed themselves before the team.

Different situations, but the same selfish result.