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View Full Version : This Epic Collapse Not Dusty's Fault



redlegs2370
10-10-2012, 09:50 PM
This Collapse will go down greater than the Cubs collapse of 84 & Dusty is not to blame. The Giants wanted it more, plain & simple. You could see how fired up the Giants players were before the game in the dugout.

Dusty can't swing the bat or pitch for these guys. He can't go out & make sure they get proper rest. I read all these post bashing Dusty & his line-ups & game decisions. Dusty is a great manager who has taken 3 different teams to post season. I just feel sorry for him because his players have quit on him & somehow Dusty will get the lame & that is a shame.

If the Reds don't retain Baker it will be another 17 years before the get another playoff win.

smixsell
10-10-2012, 09:54 PM
Geeez, get off the soapbox buddy, game 5 hasn't even been played yet.

PS Dusty's going to retire after this season with his first WS Title.

redlegs2370
10-10-2012, 09:56 PM
Geeez, get off the soapbox buddy, game 5 hasn't even been played yet.
Dusty's going to retire after this season with his first WS Title.

I hope your right, as long as he leaves on his terms.

smixsell
10-10-2012, 09:56 PM
I hope your right, as long as he leaves on his terms.

He'll retire with 1 title, then his successor will win 2 more with the Reds. :)

DocRed
10-10-2012, 10:04 PM
Which one of Dusty's sons are you again? Are you the one that JT Snow saved at home plate? Just wondering...

Mutaman
10-10-2012, 10:25 PM
The Giants wanted it more, plain & simple. You could see how fired up the Giants players were before the game in the dugout.

I guess high school got out early today.

Krawhitham
10-10-2012, 10:28 PM
This Collapse will go down greater than the Cubs collapse of 84 & Dusty is not to blame. The Giants wanted it more, plain & simple. You could see how fired up the Giants players were before the game in the dugout.

Dusty can't swing the bat or pitch for these guys. He can't go out & make sure they get proper rest. I read all these post bashing Dusty & his line-ups & game decisions. Dusty is a great manager who has taken 3 different teams to post season. I just feel sorry for him because his players have quit on him & somehow Dusty will get the lame & that is a shame.

If the Reds don't retain Baker it will be another 17 years before the get another playoff win.


Plenty of blame can be put right on Dustyball

1st he has penciled in a guy hitting .213 in every day so far
2nd How do you pull a guy who has only given up 1 hit after 73 pitches
3rd Yesterday Marshall should have went 2 innings also Chapman should have pitched a 2nd innings
4th He should have pulled Leeke after the 2nd inning
5th Why did he not use the normal 7th inning guy today?
6th if you do not go with the normal guy have someone else warmed up and ready to go at any sign of failure from your reliever
7th STOP use Cairo as a Pinch hitter when you have better options on the bench the man hit .187 this season

There is a reason why Dusty is 1 for the last 10 as a manager when his team is trying to close someone out in the playoffs

Who Dey Time
10-10-2012, 10:34 PM
What collaspe? Last time I checked there is a game to be played tomorrow.

And DocRed, as usual, you offer nothing.

DocRed
10-10-2012, 10:39 PM
What collaspe? Last time I checked there is a game to be played tomorrow.

And DocRed, as usual, you offer nothing.

3...2....1...

Mutaman
10-10-2012, 11:25 PM
What collaspe? Last time I checked there is a game to be played tomorrow.

And DocRed, as usual, you offer nothing.

Amid all the whining, crying, scapegoating, and Baker bashing, a familiar voice of reason. :beerme:

Rantly
10-10-2012, 11:32 PM
I'm usually a Dusty apologist but he manged a horrible game tonight!!!
Leake didn't have it should have been gone after 2....at least get Lecure ready!
Arrendondo....like Stubbs one of Dusty's boys...has been inconsistent and unreliable the last couple of months. Why bring him in in the 7th after the reds cut it to 2??? We had a hint of momentum

joshua
10-10-2012, 11:57 PM
Collapse? The series isn't even over. Geesh.

Rantly
10-11-2012, 12:03 AM
Sadly, and I hope I'm wrong, its over

Billy_Bearcat
10-11-2012, 12:55 AM
Sadly, and I hope I'm wrong, its over

Unfortunately you are probably right. Cueto going down hurt this team today. You don't lose Cueto then you aren't forced to pitch Leake. Baseball is a game of momentum and the Reds lost it somewhere between 2nd and 3rd in the first inning yesterday.

HometownHero
10-11-2012, 01:50 AM
Maybe if he took it more easy with Cueto he wouldn't have got hurt, when you get in that 30 innings over a previous career high when you factor in the added pitches that come between innings it starts to become a ticking time bomb.

Biff Pocoroba
10-11-2012, 11:38 AM
my goodness.

For one thing...it ain't over. Both teams are in a do-or-die situation and we have the one guy we'd most want on the hill today. We are at home and have a strong bullpen that is rested and ready.

Regarding Dusty: Like all managers, he has made some moves that look brilliant and others that haven't. He was praised for LeCure then Latos but what that line drive off LeCure with the bases loaded finds a hole? Then not so brilliant. Bottom line is that luck and execution play a huge role.

With regard to the specific criticism about taking Bailey out. I say "huh?" That was absolutely the right move and something I predicted when we made our last out the previous inning. (I also predicted that Vogelsong would be lifted in the fifth for a pinch hitter). Bailey had maybe one more inning left and it didn't make sense to have him hit when we obviously needed to score to win the game and had our three best relievers ready to go.

My bottom line - let's not pin blame until there actually is an epic collapse. And even then, let's consider that any blame can be shared among a good many people who came up short in any number of big moments that could have ended this series in our favor.

stevekun
10-11-2012, 11:42 AM
One of the biggest myths in sports is that the team that wants it more wins.

texasdave
10-11-2012, 11:46 AM
Yep. In almost every case the team that scores the most runs wins the game.

ThatPitchIsDunn
10-11-2012, 11:48 AM
Not 100% sure where this info should go, but this thread seems as good as any. It's amazing the lack of coverage not having Cueto for 2 starts is getting. I've probably gone through 12-15 articles from various national, Ohio/Kentucky and Bay Area outlets, and there is ZERO mention of the Giants not having to face the Reds' ace twice (or even once!) in 5 games.

Imagine if the other teams lost their ace; how would they fare?

Yankees – CC
Athletics – Parker
Orioles – Chen
Nats – Strasburg (whoops, they’re already doing that)
Cards – Wainwright
Giants – Cain

Instead, Hunter Pence's pregame speech mojo and Big Time Timmy Jim's relief appearances take the forefront. I still believe in Latos and the pen and the offense to take it to SF today, but I can't believe how much losing Johnny has been glossed over by everyone but Reds fans.

The_Mudshark
10-11-2012, 12:05 PM
The Giants wanted it more, plain & simple.

I didn't know Skip Bayless posted on here...

Biff Pocoroba
10-11-2012, 12:10 PM
I did a google news search using the keyword "Cueto" and came up with more than 53,000 results, including nearly 4,000 clustered around articles about his being taken off the roster and Leake taking his place as the game four starter.

If the beef is that the media isn't using that as an excuse for us, well, you'll probably have to wait until we actually lose the series (which won't happen!)

DocRed
10-11-2012, 12:14 PM
I have a feeling that Latos will pitch well but Cain will pitch even better and we will lose by like 1-0.

texasdave
10-11-2012, 12:15 PM
I have a feeling that Latos will pitch well but Cain will pitch even better and we will lose by like 1-0.


I think that by the sixth inning Matt Cain is headed for the showers. Not necessarily because he didn't pitch well. More than likely because the Giants will be trailing and running out of at-bats.

smixsell
10-11-2012, 01:17 PM
I think that by the sixth inning Matt Cain is headed for the showers. Not necessarily because he didn't pitch well. More than likely because the Giants will be trailing and running out of at-bats.

I agree. Similar to game 1.

ukwazoo
10-11-2012, 01:22 PM
It wasn't Dusty. It was the one-armed man!

Helms1
10-11-2012, 01:24 PM
Did Dusty pass out when he was admitted?

Tuff Nut
10-11-2012, 01:36 PM
Plenty of blame can be put right on Dustyball

1st he has penciled in a guy hitting .213 in every day so far
2nd How do you pull a guy who has only given up 1 hit after 73 pitches
3rd Yesterday Marshall should have went 2 innings also Chapman should have pitched a 2nd innings
4th He should have pulled Leeke after the 2nd inning
5th Why did he not use the normal 7th inning guy today?
6th if you do not go with the normal guy have someone else warmed up and ready to go at any sign of failure from your reliever
7th STOP use Cairo as a Pinch hitter when you have better options on the bench the man hit .187 this season

There is a reason why Dusty is 1 for the last 10 as a manager when his team is trying to close someone out in the playoffs I'll add one....For 165 games, this team would bunt a man into scoring postion, but in game 166, guess BP didn't see a need to advance Leake to 2nd, in the 4th. If Leake is on 2nd, he scores on Cozart's hit, and we have a whole new ballgame, a little MO, and possibly, Votto and Luddy get energized, and don't K.

Red Buckeye
10-11-2012, 01:43 PM
IMO, if the Reds choke this one away, you can look at two kep plays in Tuesdays game that were the X factors.

1. BP going for third when he shouldn't have.If he stays at 2nd the Reds score another run that inning.

2. Rolen's error in the 10th gave the Giants a run

We lose 2-1 and should have won 2-1.

texasdave
10-11-2012, 01:47 PM
IMO, if the Reds choke this one away, you can look at two kep plays in Tuesdays game that were the X factors.

1. BP going for third when he shouldn't have.If he stays at 2nd the Reds score another run that inning.

2. Rolen's error in the 10th gave the Giants a run

We lose 2-1 and should have won 2-1.


If number one happens there is no 10th inning.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 02:13 PM
Plenty of blame can be put right on Dustyball

1st he has penciled in a guy hitting .213 in every day so far


The scary part is Stubbs has even been WORSE than .213 lately. He has been hitting .179 since August 1st with 1 HR and 6 RBI's in almost 200 AB's! He has struck out 73 times during that time as well. Yet he still starts...

Red Buckeye
10-11-2012, 03:24 PM
If number one happens there is no 10th inning.

Bingo.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 03:27 PM
This is going to be a fun thread after the game...

webbbj
10-11-2012, 03:34 PM
Welp, good season

DocRed
10-11-2012, 03:43 PM
So let me get this straight....you pull Homer after 73 pitches when he is cruising and has given up 1 hit yet you leave in Latos in after 75 pitches with the bases loaded when he is in the middle of a meltdown that would make Chernobyl proud?

EMAW
10-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Only for the BAKER HATERS
Keep on piling on, have a field day. Fire the manager that took you to the playoffs twice in three years.

joe51391
10-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Don't let Dusty get to the clubhouse fire him before he leaves the dugout. Tired of his crap he left Leake off the roster and kept the likes of Cairo and Simon. Leake can do alot more for the team than both those 2 combined. Plus I for one am getting tired of BP his show boat bare hand running extra bases when not needed bullcrap needs to stop look up to someone like Larkin and play like him.

Billy_Bearcat
10-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Walt has a lot of blame in this too. This team is woeful scoring runs and he did nothing to address it. He gave us the worst bench in baseball. Also, I think our crack medical staff needs their walking papers.

EMAW
10-11-2012, 03:53 PM
Don't let Dusty get to the clubhouse fire him before he leaves the dugout. Tired of his crap he left Leake off the roster and kept the likes of Cairo and Simon. Leake can do alot more for the team than both those 2 combined. Plus I for one am getting tired of BP his show boat bare hand running extra bases when not needed bullcrap needs to stop look up to someone like Larkin and play like him.

If you believe the manager has all the say in who goes on a MLB roster, you're baseball IQ is ZERO. The GM carries a majority of the wieght in who is on and who is off the roster.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 04:00 PM
Walt has a lot of blame in this too. This team is woeful scoring runs and he did nothing to address it. He gave us the worst bench in baseball. Also, I think our crack medical staff needs their walking papers.

Absolutely agree.

RedTruck
10-11-2012, 04:03 PM
Only for the BAKER HATERS
Keep on piling on, have a field day. Fire the manager that took you to the playoffs twice in three years.

The team took us to the playoffs, not dusty. It's obvious dusty has no clue to manage a game at all.

Again, there's a reason he's never won a ring and never will.

Krawhitham
10-11-2012, 04:04 PM
Walt has a lot of blame in this too. This team is woeful scoring runs and he did nothing to address it. He gave us the worst bench in baseball.

That did not seem to bother them through the season

Krawhitham
10-11-2012, 04:10 PM
Why wait till 2 are in and 2 more on before you start warming someone up in a close out game?

Billy_Bearcat
10-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Great call Dusty!!! LOL!!!

40YrRedsFan
10-11-2012, 06:05 PM
I harped on this all year............First off, This playoff series was lost before the trade deadline when Walt & Co did nothing to address the offense. They knew we needed offensive help, especially left handed hitters, but went on the cheap and wouldn't spend any more. Either you are all in, or you are not. I guess they weren't. Chances like this to go all the way don't come often. This may have been be our ONLY shot with the Votto's, Phillips, etc. You don't know what the next years will bring; injuries, poor performances, etc. This was our year. We were here, but Walt & Co FAILED to get us what we needed to get us over the top. I put 100% of the blame on Walt and Co.
I did question Dusty's lineups and some of his decisions, but in Dusty's defense, he could only play the players he was given. I said earlier this year we would go down in the first round of the playoffs because of the offensive problems.
This is a more dissapointing ending than 2010.

malcontent
10-11-2012, 06:54 PM
I said earlier this year we would go down in the first round of the playoffs because of the offensive problems.
I also thought we'd be out after the first series.

I just never expected it to go down like this.

But seriously. If Votto doesn't tear up his knee TWICE, and Cueto actually THROWS the GD ball (preferably at Pagan's head), we're probably not having this conversation.

Question I have is: is Votto going to return to form next year, or is the knee always going to be a problem?

HometownHero
10-11-2012, 07:01 PM
IMO, if the Reds choke this one away, you can look at two kep plays in Tuesdays game that were the X factors.

1. BP going for third when he shouldn't have.If he stays at 2nd the Reds score another run that inning.

2. Rolen's error in the 10th gave the Giants a run

We lose 2-1 and should have won 2-1.

Don't forget about Homer hitting a guy and then walking a guy to start the 3rd leading to a run with no hits. Only two BB/HBP allowed by the Reds in 10 innings but they came at the worst time being back-to-back to start an inning right in front of the pitcher to bunt.

holster10
10-11-2012, 07:04 PM
Dusty has never won "the big one" and that's why he was chased out of San Fran and Chicago. I was in Chicago when he was managing there and it ended very badly for him.
Great regular season manager who has many wins to his credit but lacks postseason success and that reputation follows him where ever he goes.
Personally, I'd like to see Reds bring in new manager and hitting coach. It's time for a change in direction and philosophy. Price stays though as he has done an outstanding job this season. Look, the Phillies made many coaching changes after their first playoff miss in several seasons.

panzecaz03
10-11-2012, 07:16 PM
10 runs given up by the starters in game 4 and 5.. A good manager doesn't let that happen.. Every time the giants pitching started to struggle the least, Bochy would go straight to his bullpen.. something Dusty should have done more

malcontent
10-11-2012, 07:57 PM
10 runs given up by the starters in game 4 and 5.. A good manager doesn't let that happen.. Every time the giants pitching started to struggle the least, Bochy would go straight to his bullpen.. something Dusty should have done more
Yeah, saving the pen for ST games in March was not the way to go, IMO.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 09:42 PM
10 runs given up by the starters in game 4 and 5.. A good manager doesn't let that happen.. Every time the giants pitching started to struggle the least, Bochy would go straight to his bullpen.. something Dusty should have done more

Bochy knows how to win playoff games...its all or none and he gets that. It was genius how he used Lincecum in the playoffs. I would have liked to see Chapman come in with the bases loaded against Posey, it was absolutely the most critical point of the game. And I want my best pitcher in that situation. Yet, he comes in in the 9th down 3 runs and has no impact.