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RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2012, 05:10 PM
The NLDS is not over yet as I write this and I might not write it if not down by 3 runs as I type. But I have been bothered by this since it happened. For those of you too young or not into basebball history, Google up Merkle's Boner. For those of you who are immature, have fun with the thread title. Fred Merkle made a baserunning mistake that cost his team an opportunity to go to the World Series. It was/is called Merkle's Boner.

I have not always been a huge believer in "all else would have stayed the same if this would have happened differently". Different pitches might have been thrown to hitters, etc. But ever since that 1st inning of game #3, I have had a hard time getting BP's baserunning blunder out of my mind. CARDINAL RULE (one of many)... never make the first out or last out at 3rd base. CARDINAL RULE broken. And in the fashion it was broken (2 bases on a WP/PB). Bothersome.

How many guys go from 1st to 3rd in a game on a pitch that was not hit? Most guys would not even try it b/c MLB catchers are pretty good. Well we got to witness it firsthand and we were shown how dumb that move can be. Of course (to be fair) if he makes it, he is great. But he did not make it and got thrown out by 5 feet. I read a few comments from respected members that said they like the aggressive nature. I guess there is a fine line between aggressive and dumb when it comes to running the bases. What BP did can be called aggressive, but it was dumb. I'd venture to guess that most of the REDS staff will tell you the same if you knew them well. If you are messin' with the CARDINAL RULE thing, than you had better hope it works out. If not, then threads like this get written

I have no doubt I am asking for it and people will get angry at me (gee, some will probably label me as racist). But I have no problem calling out dumb plays that violate a CARDINAL RULE in baseball. A dumb play that, if not done, can honestly be called a play that probably cost a team a chance to advance to the NLCS. He is one of or the best 2nd baseman in MLB in my opinion. But Phillips' Boner is etched in my brain and I feel it is fair to call it out for what it was (not aggressive, but dumb). And the ramifications (as it turned out) are going hoem instead of playing a 7-game series for the NL Title. Sure the REDS could have hit/pitched better after that CARDINAL RULE was broken, but ask yourself if the REDS would have won that game if not for this dumb play. It is sports, Stuff happens (mental mistakes), but lets talk about that play.

Tom Servo
10-11-2012, 05:25 PM
It's a stupid, meaningless rule. Not scoring a single run, or even getting a runner to third, in 9 innings while Homer Bailey and the bullpen was lights freaking out was the boner that ensured the Reds would not be advancing to the NLCS.

Sea Ray
10-11-2012, 05:45 PM
I refuse to play the what if game on BP's blunder. It was a dumb move on his part but I'm ticked that we only got one more hit the rest of the game too. That's what's so frustrating and we've seen such offensive slumps many times from this ballclub.

And it was nowhere near the Lonnie Smith blunder in the Atl-Minny World Series

Vottomatic
10-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Lots of mistakes, baserunning.....defense, and lack of hitting cost us this series. Not happy with Dusty leaving Latos in to pitch to Posey with bases loaded either.

Plenty of blame to go around.

Plenty of bad luck to go around with what happened to Votto and Cueto too. What might have been had they been healthy.

If they make it back to the playoffs next year, they will be plenty hungry.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:06 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

smith288
10-11-2012, 06:13 PM
I don't fault Brandon. It was pushing the envelope to force the gave on your opponent. Just got nailed by a superior play.

I have ZERO love for Dusty tight now.

Homer Bailey
10-11-2012, 06:14 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

With zero outs, no, it was not the epitome of smart baserunning. It is the epitome of dumb, dumb baserunning. It's not why the Reds lost the series, but in no way is that smart baserunning.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:18 PM
With zero outs, no, it was not the epitome of smart baserunning. It is the epitome of dumb, dumb baserunning. It's not why the Reds lost the series, but in no way is that smart baserunning.

Any attempt of advancement that takes a perfect sequence to throw you out is smart baserunning. And for a second time, it took a clean play and a good throw to get him out. That absolutely is good baserunning.

The advantage of getting to third base with no outs is huge. There's almost a .3 run expectancy difference and over 20% increase of scoring a run.

I'd say the chance of a catcher making a clean play and good throw is less than the 20% bump in scoring Phillips took by attempting to go to third.

RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2012, 06:20 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

Brutus, you act like it was a bang-bang play. It was not. Out by so much he had time to try an alter his slide to avoid the tag that was waiting for him. There is a reason... the same reason we have things called CARDINAL RULES. This is one of those.

Do you not believe in CARDINAL RULES? We are not talking running across the pitcher's mound after making an out, but CARDINAL RULES that apply to action on the field.

Tom Servo
10-11-2012, 06:21 PM
You can keep capitalizing CARDINAL RULE but I still say that doesn't mean squat.

FlightRick
10-11-2012, 06:21 PM
I can't get into "point at one play and blame that for the entire demise" thinking. Especially not if you're gonna pick one in Game 3. So many opportunities after that.

But, hypothetically, if I WAS gonna get into the finger pointing, I choose to point at Tom Hallion. I don't know if he's a good umpire; until today, I don't have any real specific memory of him. I will remember him now, because he was not a very good umpire today.

My logic: yes, the Reds hitters choked like mad in the last 4 innings with RISP, and were not very good at their jobs. They would not have had to be very good if only Mat Latos had been good at his job (instead of losing his cool). But in the end, Mat Latos would not have had to be any better at his job, if only Tom Hallion hadn't sucked at his. [Here, I am mostly talking about the missed strike calls; not "missed" in the sense of "he was calling it wide, then squeezed Latos," just missed in the sense of "missed" by the objective reality of the strike zone, which caused Latos to groove one pitch for a triple, and then -- in general -- lose it. One can also point out that Hallion missed the call on the strike-out/throw-out double play, because he did. In that case, neither Dusty nor Hannigan was very good at his job; but nobody would have noticed if Hallion was good at his. See: I can justify anything!]

Anyway, I'm mostly in the camp of "I tend not to boo players on my own team," so that's where I'm pointing my finger...


Rick

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Brutus, you act like it was a bang-bang play. It was not. Out by so much he had time to try an alter his slide to avoid the tag that was waiting for him. There is a reason... the same reason we have things called CARDINAL RULES. This is one of those.

Do you not believe in CARDINAL RULES? We are not talking running across the pitcher's mound after making an out, but CARDINAL RULES that apply to action on the field.

I don't believe in cardinal rules. I believe in percentages and odds. And Phillips had a better chance of increasing his team's chance of scoring a run by trying to make that play, probably, then he did of getting thrown out at third.

Cardinal rules are too often outdated ways of thinking that were anecdotal.

Danny Serafini
10-11-2012, 06:25 PM
CARDINAL RULE (one of many)... never make the first out or last out at 3rd base.

I've always thought that was a stupid "rule" myself. As if it's OK to make the second out at 3rd base or it's better to make the last out at 2nd base. That's just silliness.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-11-2012, 06:27 PM
Nope. Wasn't good base running. Posey could have lit up a smoke, cracked open a beer and still thrown him out. In no universe was that good base running.

Not the sole reason the Reds choked away this series, but one of them.

Good post, RedFanAlways1966.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:29 PM
Nope. Wasn't good base running. Posey could have lit up a smoke, cracked open a beer and still thrown him out. In no universe was that good base running.

Not the sole reason the Reds choked away this series, but one of them.

Good post, RedFanAlways1966.

Except the universe where baseball research has shown that a team increases its chances of scoring nearly 25% by having a runner at third as opposed to a runner at second. That universe wins you more games than not.

Danny Serafini
10-11-2012, 06:29 PM
And Phillips had a better chance of increasing his team's chance of scoring a run by trying to make that play, probably, then he did of getting thrown out at third.

That's how I look at it. He had a relatively good chance of picking up that base, so it's worth the risk. It just didn't work out. That happens. Even when something is a 95% chance of working it still means you'll have the occasional failure, that doesn't mean you should never take that chance in order to avoid that 5%.

Homer Bailey
10-11-2012, 06:38 PM
Except the universe where baseball research has shown that a team increases its chances of scoring nearly 25% by having a runner at third as opposed to a runner at second. That universe wins you more games than not.

Can you tell me what the odds for these scenarios?

Runner on 3rd, no out
Runner on 2nd, no out
No runner on, one out.

Now tell me if it's worth the risk to take third? Also, please tell me if its worth the risk to take third, when they have you DEAD, and you're depending on an error from one of the best catchers in the game.

RedsManRick
10-11-2012, 06:41 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

What are the chances Posey makes the play? Because that's what you have to weigh against the marginal gain of being on 3rd instead of 2nd.

Making the 1st out at 3rd is like punting on 4th & 1 from your opponents 40.

Obviously there's a ton of blame to go around in those 3 games and you'd rather have errors of aggression than ones of carelessness. But that one hurt.

Homer Bailey
10-11-2012, 06:41 PM
I've always thought that was a stupid "rule" myself. As if it's OK to make the second out at 3rd base or it's better to make the last out at 2nd base. That's just silliness.

It makes a lot more sense to try to get to 3rd with one out, than it does with zero or two outs. If you're on 2nd with no outs, you have a pretty good chance that the hitter will advance you to third, or a good chance that any of the 3 subsequent hitters will combine to drive you in. Getting to third with one out makes is a heck of a lot easier to score than it does from second. Getting to third with two outs means you would only likely score on an infield hit, and its often not worth the risk to run yourself out of an inning.

jojo
10-11-2012, 06:45 PM
What are the chances Posey makes the play? Because that's what you have to weigh against the marginal gain of being on 3rd instead of 2nd.

Making the 1st out at 3rd is like punting on 4th & 1 from your opponents 40.

Obviously there's a ton of blame to go around in those 3 games and you'd rather have errors of aggression than ones of carelessness. But that one hurt.

Phillips took a reckless risk. Posey threw him out and it wasn't even a close play. It wasn't good baserunning. It was hyper aggressive baserunning.The results were fairly disastrous.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:46 PM
Can you tell me what the odds for these scenarios?

Runner on 3rd, no out
Runner on 2nd, no out
No runner on, one out.

Now tell me if it's worth the risk to take third? Also, please tell me if its worth the risk to take third, when they have you DEAD, and you're depending on an error from one of the best catchers in the game.

They only had Phillips dead because the ball took a perfect carom back to Posey and he made a great throw. If any of those two things don't happen, Phillips is safe at third.

The way I see it, they had probably an 80% chance of advancing their odds of scoring by about 25% (from 60 to just under 85%) and thusly about a 20% chance of losing roughly 40% (from 60% down to 20%) off their chances.

To me, that's worth the risk.

AtomicDumpling
10-11-2012, 06:49 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

Good Lord he got thrown out by 20 feet. Sandoval was standing there waiting for Brandon to slide into the tag. Posey had all day to throw him out and didn't even have to rush. Just a monumentally stupid baserunning mistake.

Cedric
10-11-2012, 06:49 PM
The best teams in any sport have players that trust their teammates and play the best within their own capabilities. The Reds don't have that right now.

jojo
10-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Phillips cost the Reds an expected .8 runs by his failed base running snafu. If successful, he would've only gained the Reds a .25 run advantage based upon the run expectancy matrix.

Wasn't worth the gamble. This was Brandon being Brandon.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Good Lord he got thrown out by 20 feet. Sandoval was standing there waiting for Brandon to slide into the tag. Posey had all day to throw him out and didn't even have to rush. Just a monumentally stupid baserunning mistake.

Hyperbole much? He was thrown out by about a second or two. Again, if the ball takes a different carom, that second elapses enough for Phillips to slide in safely.

Twenty feet is one of the biggest exaggerations I've ever seen on this board.

AtomicDumpling
10-11-2012, 06:53 PM
Hyperbole much? He was thrown out by about a second or two. Again, if the ball takes a different carom, that second elapses enough for Phillips to slide in safely.

Twenty feet is one of the biggest exaggerations I've ever seen on this board.

It was at least 20 feet despite the Giants taking their time getting the ball to Sandoval. He was dead meat and everyone in the stadium knew it.

757690
10-11-2012, 06:54 PM
Forget the odds, the play was right in front of him and he was out by a mile. You decide whether or not to go based on the odds, I mean should players carry an abacus around with them on the base paths? You decide to go based on whether or not you think you are going to make it. Bad, bad base running.

That said, in a five game series, there is always plenty of blame to throw around. I never understood the fascination of isolating one play and blaming a whole series on it. I could easily make a few dozen threads saying the same thing about other plays this series.

Kc61
10-11-2012, 06:58 PM
When your team has an offense that can only score 8 runs in three home games in the playoffs, and where one first inning baserunning error becomes so critical, then I think the place to look is at the offense as a whole.

It was an aggressive play. It didn't work out. The Reds should have scored another run somewhere along the line against Vogelsong and Co.

I remember the Dodgers with Koufax and Drysdale. They didn't score much but the pitching was so great they got away with it. The Reds pitching was very good this year, but it's not Koufax and Drysdale, the offense has to do better.

Brutus
10-11-2012, 06:59 PM
It was at least 20 feet despite the Giants taking their time getting the ball to Sandoval. He was dead meat and everyone in the stadium knew it.

Nobody knew it until Posey threw the ball to third. That's the point. It wasn't so obvious until the ball caromed back to him cleanly and he delivered a nice throw. Only then was it obvious Phillips was going to be out. But it was not remotely by 20 feet.

It's easy for fans to play the game of risk management with the benefit of hindsight. Regardless, that is not a play that is made more times than not in that situation.

I stand by my belief that it was about 80% chance of gaining 25% chance of scoring versus the 20% of losing 40. I think that's a risk you take.

AtomicDumpling
10-11-2012, 07:09 PM
Nobody knew it until Posey threw the ball to third. That's the point. It wasn't so obvious until the ball caromed back to him cleanly and he delivered a nice throw. Only then was it obvious Phillips was going to be out. But it was not remotely by 20 feet.

It's easy for fans to play the game of risk management with the benefit of hindsight. Regardless, that is not a play that is made more times than not in that situation.

I stand by my belief that it was about 80% chance of gaining 25% chance of scoring versus the 20% of losing 40. I think that's a risk you take.

He had about a 5% chance of making it to third safely. The only way he makes it is if Posey makes an errant throw.

Considering he was out by a mile at third he was still close enough to second base to return to the bag when he saw the ball bounce back to Posey. Posey had all day to carefully retrieve the ball and casually throw to third and still get Brandon by 20 feet.

klw
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
I only just saw the play on video. Phillips biggest mistake in the play was probably that he had slowed going around second and then sped up again. If he wanted to go, he had to maintain full speed. Otherwise great throw by Posey who was clutch this series.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25366995&c_id=mlb


Edit: Rewatching it I can't tell if he had to slow due to the angle of turning the bag but I don't think so. I think he surprised Posey wasn't to the ball yet.

Tom Servo
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
I just don't get it. It was the first out! What difference does it make that he singled and was then thrown out going to third or if he flew out to center field?

AtomicDumpling
10-11-2012, 07:31 PM
I just don't get it. It was the first out! What difference does it make that he singled and was then thrown out going to third or if he flew out to center field?

Because he was already safely at 2nd base.

At the point Brandon safely reached 2nd base with no outs the Reds had a run expectancy in the inning of 1.172 runs. This means based on the historical results of real MLB games, teams in that exact situation scored an average of 1.172 runs in the rest of the inning.

By getting thrown out at third, Brandon caused the Reds' run expectancy to drop to 0.289 runs because the Reds were left in a base-out state of nobody on base with one out. His blunder cost the Reds 0.883 runs on average.

If Brandon had successfully reached 3rd base it would have raised the run expectancy to 1.444 runs. This is a relatively small increase of 0.272 runs. This small increase in run expectancy is not nearly enough to justify the risk of losing 0.883 runs unless you are 90% certain that you can make it. Essentially, Brandon gambled 0.883 runs in an attempt to gain 0.272 runs. That is why Phillips' decision to go for third was such a big strategic mistake.

To recap the Phillips situation:

Runner on 2nd, zero outs: 1.172 expected runs. (the starting point)
Runner on 3rd, zero outs: 1.444 expected runs. (if he had made it to 3rd)
No runners on, one out: 0.289 expected runs. (after he got thrown out)

Now, to answer the question of why it matters how many outs there are ("Don't make the first out at 3rd base), the reason is because the run expectancy difference is not as severe when there is already one out. The damage to your run expectancy is much stronger if you make the first out at 3rd base than if you make the second out at 3rd base.

If there had been one out when Phillips' play occurred here are the run expectancies:

Runner on 2nd, one out: 0.714 expected runs.
Runner on 3rd, one out: 0.984 expected runs.
No runners on, two outs: 0.111 expected runs.

So in that case the Reds would have gained 0.27 runs if Brandon made it to 3rd safely, pretty much the same as the earlier situation. But if he had gotten thrown out it would have cost the Reds 0.603 expected runs (compared to the 0.883 runs earlier), so the damage is still bad but not as bad. It would still have been a dumb decision to go for third on that play, but the damage would have been less severe.

jojo
10-11-2012, 07:53 PM
Because he was already safely at 2nd base.

At the point Brandon safely reached 2nd base with no outs the Reds had a run expectancy in the inning of 1.172 runs. This means based on the historical results of real MLB games, teams in that exact situation scored an average of 1.172 runs in the rest of the inning.

By getting thrown out at third, Brandon caused the Reds run expectancy to drop to 0.289 runs because the Reds were left in a base-out state of nobody on base with one out. His blunder cost the Reds 0.883 runs on average.

If Brandon had successfully reached 3rd base it would have raised the run expectancy to 1.444 runs. This is a relatively small increase of 0.272 runs. This small increase in run expectancy is not nearly enough to justify the risk of losing 0.883 runs unless you are 90% certain that you can make it. Essentially, Brandon gambled 0.883 runs in an attempt to gain 0.272 runs. That is why Phillips' decision to go for third was such a big strategic mistake.

To recap the Phillips situation:

Runner on 2nd, zero outs: 1.172 expected runs.
Runner on 3rd, zero outs: 1.444 expected runs.
No runners on, one out: 0.289 expected runs.

Now, to answer the question of why it matters how many outs there are ("Don't make the first out at 3rd base), the reason is because the run expectancy difference is not as severe when there is already one out. The damage to your run expectancy is much stronger if you make the first out at 3rd base than if you make the second out at 3rd base.

If there had been one out when Phillips' play occurred here are the run expectancies:

Runner on 2nd, one out: 0.714 expected runs.
Runner on 3rd, one out: 0.984 expected runs.
No runners on, two outs: 0.111 expected runs.

So in that case the Reds would have gained 0.27 runs if Brandon made it to 3rd safely, pretty much the same as the earlier situation. But if he had gotten thrown out it would have cost the Reds 0.603 expected runs (compared to the 0.883 runs earlier), so the damage is still bad but not as bad. It would still have been a dumb decision to go for third on that play, but the damage would have been less severe.

Pretty much. It wasn't a smart decision. The only way it made sense is if Phillips was guaranteed to make it. Obviously he thought he was....clearly he misjudged the situation by a considerable margin. His reasoning was that everything would have to be perfect. But it wasn't a difficult play for Posey to make.

The reality is that it was reckless aggression which largely is Branon's MO. Brandon is fast. Rolen is a great base runner. It's a big difference.

Always Red
10-11-2012, 08:40 PM
Blame?

It's a team game; plenty of blame to go around. Win and lose as a team.

RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2012, 08:51 PM
I stated that I am a not a big believer in "all things stay the same if this happened differently", but that inning:

* BP single.
>> Thrown out during Cozart's AB.
* Cozart walks.
* Votto F8.
* Ludwick singles, Cozart to 2nd.
* Bruce singles, Cozart scores.
* Rolen K.

Stats and percentages of this/that aside, do they score at least 2 runs in your opinion that inning if BP stops at 2nd (love to see some answers to this question)? Do the Giants get more than 1 hit and 1 run in 9 innings? We all know where this goes. 2-1 final and waiting for Cards-Nats to finish. I am not a fortune teller, but I feel it as fair to present this side as it is to say X% if this/that. And I guess this is why it still bothers me. I'd be bothered by a physical error too, but the mental error is hard to remove from my brain. Yes, it was a mental error (call it aggressive, it was, but it was a mental error and BP's reaction seemed to show he knew it). Rolen's E5 was a physical error and might not have happened if the mental error was not made.

Cardinal rule (not all caps!). 2nd base and no outs. Especially with the heart of the lineup coming up. The heart of the lineup delivered. The team lost a run... one that turned out to be HUGE (caps intended).

RedFanAlways1966
10-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Blame?

It's a team game; plenty of blame to go around. Win and lose as a team.



Totally agree! :) I wanted to start this thread after game 3, but had reservations. Part of the reason was what you stated. But I feel it is OK to mention that play. Hindsight is 20-20, but right now that play seems significant (it did right after it happened to me, but hoped it would not matter). As it turned out that might be the most pivotal play in the series (yes, my opinion).

Always Red
10-11-2012, 09:03 PM
Totally agree! :) I wanted to start this thread after game 3, but had reservations. Part of the reason was what you stated. But I feel it is OK to mention that play. Hindsight is 20-20, but right now that play seems significant (it did right after it happened to me, but hoped it would not matter). As it turned out that might be the most pivotal play in the series (yes, my opinion).

I agree, it was an extremely pivotal play.

But it was the 1st inning of the middle game of the series. Had BP stayed at 2nd, and we turn back the Universe Clock, who knows what would have happened? Pitchers pitch differently, catchers call differently, and position players position differently (coaching) based upon what is happening here and now.

The Reds have taken the extra base for 3 years now, when Scott Rolen challenged them to do so, and they have thrived and flourished doing so, and playing more aggressive baseball.

This one bit them in the butt, obviously.

CrackerJack
10-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Without BP they don't stand a chance of winning even one game, the way he played, so it seems a bit silly to single out one mistake that "may" have cost a run. The real problem is that they only scored one run when their own pitchers only gave up 2.

I'm not sure what Dusty's base-running rules are with vets, but they've been doing this crap all season, and it came back to hurt them. It's disappointing that such things never change with him, great guy, but a bit of a stubborn old mule that may not be the best thing for a young team with challenges.

Tony Cloninger
10-11-2012, 10:38 PM
What Phillips did was the epitome of smart baserunning.

You have second base stolen and the ball gets to the backstop. To get thrown out, the catcher has to field it cleanly and then deliver a good throw to third. If Posey doesn't do both of those things, Phillips gets to third easy. There is absolutely no reason Phillips shouldn't have done it. Just tip your cap to Posey for making the play.

Taking 2nd was fine....taking 3rd was getting greedy and not needed. But it was the 1st inning....and no one figured or thought they were going to be no hit for the rest of the game.

PuffyPig
10-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Not scoring a single run, or even getting a runner to third, in 9 innings while Homer Bailey and the bullpen was lights freaking out was the boner that ensured the Reds would not be advancing to the NLCS.


Why is it OK for the Reds pitchers to shut down the Giants, but not OK for the Giant's pitchers to shut down the Reds?

Tom Servo
10-11-2012, 11:35 PM
Why is it OK for the Reds pitchers to shut down the Giants, but not OK for the Giant's pitchers to shut down the Reds?
The Reds pitchers (Bailey, Marshall, Chapman) were excellent in Game 3, Vogelsong and the Giants were middling. Affeldt is the only one who pitched very well in it.

oneupper
10-11-2012, 11:39 PM
Since we're talking about that inning, that Rolen K was all on the ump. Still has me upset. Very low and inside.
Give me robo-ump.

AtomicDumpling
10-11-2012, 11:43 PM
Since we're talking about that inning, that Rolen K was all on the ump. Still has me upset. Very low and inside.
Give me robo-ump.

I want robo-ump too. Way too many games have their outcomes changed by poor umpiring. Most of these mistakes could be gotten rid of with some quick and easy technology.

757690
10-11-2012, 11:45 PM
Why is it OK for the Reds pitchers to shut down the Giants, but not OK for the Giant's pitchers to shut down the Reds?

I think most people forgot that most on this board were scared about playing the Giants. They won 94 games and had a very strong pitching staff. It was a tough battle between two excellent teams that could have gone either way many times.

Wonderful Monds
10-11-2012, 11:47 PM
Since we're talking about that inning, that Rolen K was all on the ump. Still has me upset. Very low and inside.
Give me robo-ump.

Can't wait for robo ump

gilpdawg
10-12-2012, 08:09 AM
I've always thought that was a stupid "rule" myself. As if it's OK to make the second out at 3rd base or it's better to make the last out at 2nd base. That's just silliness.
Outs are bad no matter what base and which out it is. Just because old timey broadcasters and players have been saying it for 50 years doesn't mean it makes sense.

And for what it's worth, Fred Merkle got hosed. It's pretty hard to touch second base when people are running all over the field. (In those days the fans had to exit the Polo Grounds in center field and actually used the playing surface to get there)

RedFanAlways1966
10-12-2012, 08:40 AM
Outs are bad no matter what base and which out it is. Just because old timey broadcasters and players have been saying it for 50 years doesn't mean it makes sense.

And for what it's worth, Fred Merkle got hosed. It's pretty hard to touch second base when people are running all over the field. (In those days the fans had to exit the Polo Grounds in center field and actually used the playing surface to get there)

Sayings also have merit and make sense. I do not agree with them all, but this one makes sense to me. Even the stats/pcts show it amkes sense when presented as a whole.

If it took Fred Merkle longer to run 90 feet than it does for fans to run from the stands to a spot between 1st and 2nd, the Fred needs a better wheelchair! Fred was young (19?) and did not know any better. He also figured with the chaos you mentioned that it would not matter. However, he did not get hosed and was not stopped by the fans. It makes for a good discussion though and was never brought to light as to what really happened for many years.