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UCBrownsfan
10-11-2012, 08:00 PM
Dusty is GREAT at the it's a marathon not a sprint aspect of baseball, which is what the regular season is, keeping guys loose knowing that the good will soon come, and managing the long haul of the season.

The problem is, the playoff's are a sprint, there are gambles that need to be taken, and each game needs to be managed as if it's the last, and that's where he got outmanaged this series. I would have loved to have seen Latos in game 4, and if that didn't work, start Chapman, and ride his arm 2-3 innings, then Marshall, whoever, I just never got the feeling he was pulling all of the stops.

My thoughts are now, give Chris Speier the job, for a couple million less than Dusty would command, and put that into the player money pool. Just my thoughts as right now, I'm afraid of not extending, and aftraid of extending. I don't want to lose the quality regular season Dusty, but I could do without the playoff Dusty.

Over da Pence
10-11-2012, 08:20 PM
Dusty is sort of like Don Nelson, he knows how to win. He just hasn't got the big one yet. Luck plays a part.

Krawhitham
10-11-2012, 08:28 PM
My thoughts are all wrapped up in this quote


Q. Was there any consideration about pulling Latos before the Posey at bat?
DUSTY BAKER: No, he was dealing.

He was dealing up 2 runs and the bases loaded

Krawhitham
10-11-2012, 08:30 PM
The first order of business is Reds manager Dusty Baker’s status. His contract is up.

Jocketty said he expects Baker to be back, along with all of the coaches whose contracts are up as well.

DocRed
10-11-2012, 08:40 PM
My thoughts are all wrapped up in this quote



He was dealing up 2 runs and the bases loaded

LOL, Dusty would make one helluva a political spin doctor.

Kcbuckeye22
10-11-2012, 09:00 PM
Rick Sweet 2013!!!

1940757690
10-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Not sure yet how I feel about Dusty staying or going. But this thread helps. Need to noodle more.

EMAW
10-11-2012, 09:18 PM
Rick Sweet 2013!!!

Disaster

BurgervilleBuck
10-11-2012, 09:18 PM
Jocketty said he expects Baker to be back, along with all of the coaches whose contracts are up as well.
Keyword there is "expect." A lot can happen, y'know.

Like, I expected to be rich by this time in my life.

Maldez
10-11-2012, 09:23 PM
Dusty did not lose the playoffs in any way, shape or form. To think that a different manager (Chris Speier, Sparky Anderson, Walter Alston, whoever) could have "done something" to change the outcome is just a simple way of trying to explain away an ugly loss.

The thing I like most about Dusty is the way the players seem to enjoy playing for him. It's so rare to see a manager with an arm around one of his player's backs smiling but with Dusty you see it all the time. I hope he gets a nice contract extension and leads us to the World Series.

BurgervilleBuck
10-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Dusty did not lose the playoffs in any way, shape or form. To think that a different manager (Chris Speier, Sparky Anderson, Walter Alston, whoever) could have "done something" to change the outcome is just a simple way of trying to explain away an ugly loss.

The thing I like most about Dusty is the way the players seem to enjoy playing for him. It's so rare to see a manager with an arm around one of his player's backs smiling but with Dusty you see it all the time. I hope he gets a nice contract extension and leads us to the World Series.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's great the players love him and all but the man is completely hopeless in in-game adjustments. That's said, I don't necessarily think Dusty needs to be shown the door quite yet.

If there's anyone I want to see go, it's Jacoby. The offense needs a better approach at the plate and that's something I think a new hitting coach address.

EMAW
10-11-2012, 09:41 PM
Keyword there is "expect." A lot can happen, y'know.

Like, I expected to be rich by this time in my life.

It's up to Dusty, obvious Walt wants him back and Bob has stated his Dusty love already.

Mutaman
10-11-2012, 10:38 PM
I would have loved to have seen Latos in game 4, and if that didn't work, start Chapman, and ride his arm 2-3 innings, then Marshall, whoever, I just never got the feeling he was pulling all of the stops.


Make it stop!

malcontent
10-11-2012, 11:06 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Speier as manager.

EMAW
10-11-2012, 11:22 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Speier as manager.

WIBW 580 in Topeka, KS said Speier is the front runner for the Rockies opening

Ironman92
10-11-2012, 11:35 PM
WIBW 580 in Topeka, KS said Speier is the front runner for the Rockies opening

Good for him

malcontent
10-11-2012, 11:42 PM
Good for him
Then the Reds should act quickly.

EMAW
10-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Then the Reds should act quickly.

You have to think this out, Speier is one of Dusty's best friends ever. He is not going to step in if Dusty is fired. The only way he takes over will be when Dusty calls it quits. I like Speier (did when he played) and have a hunch he will be a great manager. Players love him!

Boro_BG_Red
10-12-2012, 12:19 AM
It would be tough for me to not bring Dusty back. I only say this because I seriously cannot think of another manager that would be an upgrade over him. The only real possibilties I can think ok are Jim Tracy, David Bell, Chris Speier, and Jim Riggleman. I don't think they are upgrades. And LaRussa probably doesn't want to manage the Reds. I also don;t want to see him in a Reds uniform. Don't let Dusty go unless there is a better option. I don't see one yet.

malcontent
10-12-2012, 03:16 AM
I don't really give a damn if the players love their manager.

This is Baker's record with the Reds:

Cincinnati Reds 5 years 419 391 .517

jeremy24
10-12-2012, 03:26 AM
I hope Dusty returns.

I was born in 1988 so I have witnessed very few successful Reds teams.

The two most successful are the 2010 and 2010 clubs. Since Dusty has been hired the Reds have gone from a cellar-dweller in the NL Central to Division Champions.

I may disagree with some of the decisions he makes, but I think he is a great manager. I hope he leaves on his own terms.

Maldez
10-12-2012, 07:14 AM
Sports fans are funny..the Reds win 97 regular season games, and they want a new manager. What did Dusty do so wrong? Oh, wait, I know now. He forgot to flash the "no grand slams" sign to Mat Latos...didn't given Scott Rolen the "no bobbles" signal on that slow grounder to third. Yeah, the man's got to go.

Rantly
10-12-2012, 08:10 AM
I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's great the players love him and all but the man is completely hopeless in in-game adjustments. That's said, I don't necessarily think Dusty needs to be shown the door quite yet.

If there's anyone I want to see go, it's Jacoby. The offense needs a better approach at the plate and that's something I think a new hitting coach address.

Spot on
I've never been less aware of a hitting instructor in 40 years of following the Reds

Cant Touch This
10-12-2012, 08:32 AM
I think the Reds need to ride the wave of continuity right now. The team is set up for about a 3-year window of success with the cornerstones in place right now. I wouldn't feel comfortable shaking that up and I fear terminating Dusty would have a negative impact on the players. And to repeat the sentiment of some others: who will replace him? We've seen some tragic choices to manage the Reds. At least we know what we'll get with Dusty, and frankly, that brings me some comfort.

The team has enough talent to win the Central division again next year and possibly the next few. While anyone can second guess a manager's decision, those decisions are under the microscope in the playoffs. It took a perfect storm for the Giants to come back from a 2-0 hole and steal the NLDS away from the Reds. A perfect storm. Dusty was just one part of a collective sequence of unfortunate events.

Bring him back and let him lead the Reds to their third NL Central title in four seasons. Then hope that good fortune returns to Cincinnati, because it takes a few sprinkles of luck to advance in the post-season, too.

holster10
10-12-2012, 09:31 AM
how many times did i hear "how brilliant" Dusty was for his pitching decisions in Game 1 once Cueto went down? Dusty himself was credited for his brilliance as a big reason for the win in Game 1 yet when the Reds meltdown at home over the last three games its not his fault. In a game of accountability where the players can not be FIRED someone has to take the heat. Unfortunately, most often it's the coaches that lose their jobs at the expense of the players failure. I keep hearing the Reds had a great season. Did they? What did they win?

osuredleg24
10-12-2012, 10:02 AM
how many times did i hear "how brilliant" Dusty was for his pitching decisions in Game 1 once Cueto went down? Dusty himself was credited for his brilliance as a big reason for the win in Game 1 yet when the Reds meltdown at home over the last three games its not his fault. In a game of accountability where the players can not be FIRED someone has to take the heat. Unfortunately, most often it's the coaches that lose their jobs at the expense of the players failure. I keep hearing the Reds had a great season. Did they? What did they win?

agreed..

to me, Giants manager made key moves to put the Giants in better position to suceed than Dusty did

boiseheidleberg
10-12-2012, 10:50 AM
how many times did i hear "how brilliant" Dusty was for his pitching decisions in Game 1 once Cueto went down? Dusty himself was credited for his brilliance as a big reason for the win in Game 1 yet when the Reds meltdown at home over the last three games its not his fault. In a game of accountability where the players can not be FIRED someone has to take the heat. Unfortunately, most often it's the coaches that lose their jobs at the expense of the players failure. I keep hearing the Reds had a great season. Did they? What did they win?

He did make the right moves in game one and credit is due him. But his hand was forced. He had to go to the pen. I think the knock on Dusty is that he doesn't have a feel for when to remove a starter and go to the pen in the normal course of a game. It was very obvious that Latos was melting down. He left Latos in too long yesterday (Did Latos even get a mound visit during that inning? I don't think he did [could be wrong]which is beyond understanding) and he left Leake in too long in game three. Botchy was spot on with his timing. Don't want to bash him too much. But a couple of timely moves with the starting pitching could have made a difference.

dubc47834
10-12-2012, 11:29 AM
He did make the right moves in game one and credit is due him. But his hand was forced. He had to go to the pen. I think the knock on Dusty is that he doesn't have a feel for when to remove a starter and go to the pen in the normal course of a game. It was very obvious that Latos was melting down. He left Latos in too long yesterday (Did Latos even get a mound visit during that inning? I don't think he did [could be wrong]which is beyond understanding) and he left Leake in too long in game three. Botchy was spot on with his timing. Don't want to bash him too much. But a couple of timely moves with the starting pitching could have made a difference.

There was a mound visit. Right after Latos thought he didn't get a few strike calls!!!

boiseheidleberg
10-12-2012, 11:35 AM
Oops, my bad, wasn't sure.

Krawhitham
10-12-2012, 12:30 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/reds-to-offer-baker-contract.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


The Reds want manager Dusty Baker back for the 2013 season. General manager Walt Jocketty planned to meet with Baker and offer him a short-term contract this morning, Bob Nightengale of USA Today reports

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/reds-to-offer-baker-contract.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

texasdave
10-12-2012, 01:44 PM
A short-term contract? I have a feeling that Dusty is not gonna like that very much. Perhaps this is Jocketty's way of getting Baker out the door while saving face. The old "we wanted him back and offered him a contract" fall back position.

That being said, I expect to see both Baker back in 2013 and Stubbs in CF.

Maldez
10-12-2012, 02:02 PM
how many times did i hear "how brilliant" Dusty was for his pitching decisions in Game 1 once Cueto went down? Dusty himself was credited for his brilliance as a big reason for the win in Game 1 yet when the Reds meltdown at home over the last three games its not his fault. In a game of accountability where the players can not be FIRED someone has to take the heat. Unfortunately, most often it's the coaches that lose their jobs at the expense of the players failure. I keep hearing the Reds had a great season. Did they? What did they win?

What did Dusty do to cause the "meltdown" over the last three games?....or what did he not do to prevent it? The fact that the Reds won 97 regular season games with Dusty as manager seems to mean nothing, and the three losses to end the season mean everything.

DocRed
10-12-2012, 02:06 PM
A short-term contract? I have a feeling that Dusty is not gonna like that very much. Perhaps this is Jocketty's way of getting Baker out the door while saving face. The old "we wanted him back and offered him a contract" fall back position.

That being said, I expect to see both Baker back in 2013 and Stubbs in CF.

Yup, a 1 year contract is basically saying "I don't wanna fire you, but I don't really want you around either."

RiverRat13
10-12-2012, 02:12 PM
Either give him a multi-year deal or nothing at all. I want the Chapman decision to be made upon what is best for Chapman and the organization for the long haul, not what is best for Dusty looking to get a long term deal.

Rotater Cuff
10-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Dusty Baker time and again has proven to be a bad tactical manager. the 2002 World Series, the Bartman series, the 3 other playoff losses all weigh against him. Yes, he won 97 games. i think with the Astros and the Cubs in the division, that wasn't the monumental achievement it appears to be.
i can't tell you how many times he blows me away with a questionable play, like an innapropiate bunt, a inane substitution, a pitching change that happens too late, a player in the lineup that doesn't belong in the spot he's in, etc.
i think if Castellini doesn't make a change, season ticket sales will suffer, RedsFest will suffer, and the Caravan will be tougher to attract crowds. Castellini needs to inject some hope and change into the Reds before people become apathetic. This is too good a team to waste with a bad manager, and that's a real shame with this kind of talent.

Ironman92
10-12-2012, 04:46 PM
I do not care if Dusty is back for 2013.....as long as Drew Stubbs is not.

But they both will and Stubbs will get his 150 starts barring injury.

Maldez
10-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Dusty Baker time and again has proven to be a bad tactical manager. the 2002 World Series, the Bartman series, the 3 other playoff losses all weigh against him. Yes, he won 97 games. i think with the Astros and the Cubs in the division, that wasn't the monumental achievement it appears to be.
i can't tell you how many times he blows me away with a questionable play, like an innapropiate bunt, a inane substitution, a pitching change that happens too late, a player in the lineup that doesn't belong in the spot he's in, etc.
i think if Castellini doesn't make a change, season ticket sales will suffer, RedsFest will suffer, and the Caravan will be tougher to attract crowds. Castellini needs to inject some hope and change into the Reds before people become apathetic. This is too good a team to waste with a bad manager, and that's a real shame with this kind of talent.


If Dusty really is as inept as some of you feel his is, do you think Walt Jocketty wouldn't know that? Do you have a keener baseball eye than he does?
So easy to second-guess a manager's moves from your sofa, but that's a fan's right. I'm very confident that Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty will make the right decison with our manager. The Reds have come so far with these two calling the shots there's no reason to doubt them now.

Eric from NC
10-12-2012, 05:01 PM
I think it is the case that Dusty is a better team chemistry guy than a making every perfect change during the game. However, Bobby V forecasts what you can get if you fall too much in love with the smartest guy in the room. I would stay with Dusty unless you had a fantastic alternative.

Have to also say that mainly the combination of injuries and players not getting the job done were the main culprits of the 3 game streak. Reds gave away game 3 with dumb errors by veteran players. I just don't think that you can give away a game in a five game series against a team that is equally talented.

WDE
10-12-2012, 05:13 PM
I've decided. I want Dusty gone. You can't choke like that.

malcontent
10-12-2012, 05:38 PM
Baker just blows such basic stuff. In the 5th yesterday he PH Heisey (instead of Paul) against Cain with two runners on and no outs. Pop-out. Phillips then doubled both runners in, but that was all the Reds got.

And of course when Baker later decided to PH Paul, Bochy countered with one of his three LH relievers. K. Anyone with a functioning brain stem should have known that would happen. These are Paul's career numbers vs. LHP:

.140 .197 .158 .355 That's 8-57 with 1 double. In his career.

So essentially, after managing 19 years and over 3000 games, he makes a mistake that a Little League manager doesn't. In Game 5 of the NLDS.

The players can sing his praises and Castellini and Jocketty can keep the guy around till 2030, and he still won't get them over the top.

malcontent
10-12-2012, 05:40 PM
However, Bobby V forecasts what you can get if you fall too much in love with the smartest guy in the room.
Not sure I'd ever accuse Valentine of being that.

;)

TLR maybe.

Maldez
10-12-2012, 07:43 PM
I've decided. I want Dusty gone. You can't choke like that.

Dusty choked?....not Scott Rolen, not Mat Latos, Dusty? Odd thinking.

Ironman92
10-12-2012, 08:58 PM
I've decided. I want Dusty gone. You can't choke like that.

Are you being negative now?

Maldez
10-13-2012, 10:05 AM
I've decided. I want Dusty gone. You can't choke like that.

I guess Washington has to fire Davey Johnson now....another choke artist.

DocRed
10-13-2012, 10:17 AM
I do not care if Dusty is back for 2013.....as long as Drew Stubbs is not.

But they both will and Stubbs will get his 150 starts barring injury.

This, I would rather have Dusty back than Stubbs. Unfortunately I think the two may be joined at the hip.

Seat5
10-13-2012, 01:40 PM
Dusty is the Marty Schottenheimer of baseball.

malcontent
10-13-2012, 04:18 PM
Baker's career record (includes Bonds-wins):

19 years 1581-1432 .525

Baker with the Reds:

5 years 419-391 .517

Baker post-season with Reds:

2 years 2-6 .250

In five years he's only 24 games over .500 as this team's manager. But he seems to dial it up a notch for contract years. Handed a one-year contract....which I assume he will accept....I don't think he does any better, takes the team any further than this year.

It's way past time for the team to move on, IMO.

DocRed
10-13-2012, 05:27 PM
Baker's career record (includes Bonds-wins):

19 years 1581-1432 .525

Baker with the Reds:

5 years 419-391 .517

Baker post-season with Reds:

2 years 2-6 .250

In five years he's only 24 games over .500 as this team's manager. But he seems to dial it up a notch for contract years. Handed a one-year contract....which I assume he will accept....I don't think he does any better, takes the team any further than this year.

It's way past time for the team to move on, IMO.

Here are Dusty's overall postseason numbers.

19-25 in post season games .431
3-6 in post season series (including 2-4 in the first round) .333

Donder
10-13-2012, 05:28 PM
In five years he's only 24 games over .500 as this team's manager.

Only 24 games over .500? How quickly we forget 2000-2009. Other than Pete Mackanin's half season no manager was near .500.

Speaking of, I see Mackanin was just let go by the Phillies. I would love to see him wind back up with the Reds in some capacity.

Maldez
10-13-2012, 05:44 PM
Baker's career record (includes Bonds-wins):

19 years 1581-1432 .525

Baker with the Reds:

5 years 419-391 .517

Baker post-season with Reds:

2 years 2-6 .250

In five years he's only 24 games over .500 as this team's manager. But he seems to dial it up a notch for contract years. Handed a one-year contract....which I assume he will accept....I don't think he does any better, takes the team any further than this year.

It's way past time for the team to move on, IMO.

Dust Baker won 99 games this year but that's not good enough for a malcontent. We've gone to the playoffs 2 of the last three years, something unheard of for decades in Cincinnati, but that's not good enough.

malcontent
10-13-2012, 06:01 PM
Dust Baker won 99 games this year but that's not good enough for a malcontent. We've gone to the playoffs 2 of the last three years, something unheard of for decades in Cincinnati, but that's not good enough.
I'm "malcontent" because I seemed to be a voice in the wilderness (vehemently against it) when it came to the Griffey acquisition an eternity ago.

Replace Baker with a better manager and I'll be very content.

Of course, I also know I don't have that kind of luck.

mikemo14
10-13-2012, 06:36 PM
Great time to part ways. Dusty has as much value now as he ever will and would be a good bet to land another gig. IMO this team needs a manager that holds thenm a little more accountable for their performance. Patience is a virtue, too much patience may be a fault. I know Dusty is considered a "Players Manager". I'm sure people like Stubbs , Rolen and Cairo loved playing for a guy that would send them out night after night regardless of how bad they performance were. In my gut I think he will be back on a one year deal, but man would I love to see old number 8 (Joe Morgan) be named manager of this team for 2013.

malcontent
10-13-2012, 06:51 PM
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