PDA

View Full Version : Reds to offer Baker a contract



Wheelhouse
10-12-2012, 02:10 PM
Per MLB Trade rumors: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

steig
10-12-2012, 03:25 PM
:bang:

Always Red
10-12-2012, 03:27 PM
One year offer, per MLBTR.

Could be designed to allow Dusty to decline, gracefully, and allowing both parties to go their separate way with some dignity intact.

redsfan30
10-12-2012, 03:29 PM
I know I am firmly in the minority but I really hope he returns.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 03:30 PM
Looks like Walt got overruled by Castellini...

If Dusty does stay in town maybe Jocketty can send Dusty to a remedial managing school to learn about OBP and run expectancy tables. Maybe that will result in some smarter lineup construction and less bunting.

Kc61
10-12-2012, 03:37 PM
One year offer, per MLBTR.

Could be designed to allow Dusty to decline, gracefully, and allowing both parties to go their separate way with some dignity intact.

Don't be surprised if this is what is going on. It's the same approach the Yanks used with Torre when they weren't wild about his return.

Particularly in light of Dusty's health issues, I would not be suprised if they will only offer him one year. I would be also not be surprised if Dusty declines.

If the Reds were that excited about a Dusty return, they wouldn't be focused only on a "short-term" contract. So that language tells us something.

On the other hand, Dusty may feel that he is getting near the end and doesn't want a very long term commitment. Doubtful. I think he may tell the Reds, multi-year deal with a raise, or he's moving on.

My instinct is that this will not work out and Dusty will not return. Just a guess, based on Dusty's comments post-game yesterday, the "short-term" language, and the debacle of this five game series loss.

bucksfan2
10-12-2012, 03:37 PM
Looks like Walt got overruled by Castellini...

If Dusty does stay in town maybe Jocketty can send Dusty to a remedial managing school to learn about OBP and run expectancy tables. Maybe that will result in some smarter lineup construction and less bunting.

Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

CySeymour
10-12-2012, 03:41 PM
Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

This.

If Dusty is using too many of the wrong guys, then Walt should trade them or let them go.

RedEye
10-12-2012, 03:44 PM
Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

I agree that Dusty could have some better OBP guys. But he could also use the OBP resources he has far better. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

RedEye
10-12-2012, 03:45 PM
I feel like Dusty's tenure here has run its course. This team needs someone to get them over the proverbial hump, and I'm not sure he's the one to do it.

edabbs44
10-12-2012, 03:49 PM
Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

2008-2012, the Reds OPS ranking has been better than their runs ranking in the NL only once. Shouldn't it be better more often if lineup construction was really a problem?

klw
10-12-2012, 03:56 PM
This.

If Dusty is using too many of the wrong guys, then Walt should trade them or let them go.
You traded Pena?
http://www.filmoa.com/video/you-traded-pena-moneyball
Moneyball Clip 1 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cZTt-xZWvI&feature=relmfu)

oneupper
10-12-2012, 03:56 PM
2008-2012, the Reds OPS ranking has been better than their runs ranking in the NL only once. Shouldn't it be better more often if lineup construction was really a problem?

Giving bad hitters a lot of ABs brings both OPS and Runs down. It seems the order isn't all that important. (that's what you're saying, right?).

osuceltic
10-12-2012, 03:58 PM
Don't be surprised if this is what is going on. It's the same approach the Yanks used with Torre when they weren't wild about his return.

Particularly in light of Dusty's health issues, I would not be suprised if they will only offer him one year. I would be also not be surprised if Dusty declines.

If the Reds were that excited about a Dusty return, they wouldn't be focused only on a "short-term" contract. So that language tells us something.

On the other hand, Dusty may feel that he is getting near the end and doesn't want a very long term commitment. Doubtful. I think he may tell the Reds, multi-year deal with a raise, or he's moving on.

My instinct is that this will not work out and Dusty will not return. Just a guess, based on Dusty's comments post-game yesterday, the "short-term" language, and the debacle of this five game series loss.

Same here. These one-year offers have a way of pushing guys away, which ultimately is what the club usually wants.

edabbs44
10-12-2012, 03:59 PM
Giving bad hitters a lot of ABs brings both OPS and Runs down. It seems the order isn't all that important. (that's what you're saying, right?).

The Reds were #2 and #1 in runs in the NL the prior 2 seasons. What I am saying is that the lineup construction issues are way overrated.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 03:59 PM
2008-2012, the Reds OPS ranking has been better than their runs ranking in the NL only once. Shouldn't it be better more often if lineup construction was really a problem?

Not when you are giving your poor OPS guys more plate appearances per game than your best OPS guys. The team OPS would be better if the best players were getting more at-bats and the worst players were getting fewer at-bats.

Team OPS correlates very strongly with run scoring. So by optimizing the lineup you increase the team OPS and therefore score more runs over the course of the season.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 04:05 PM
Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

I think Walt goes out and gets guys that Dusty wants. Walt certainly isn't forcing unwanted players on Dusty. Dusty is a key part of the decision making process when it comes time to acquire players for Dusty's team.

Guys like Patterson, Taveras, Valdez and Cairo got hundreds of plate appearances because Dusty put them in the lineup -- usually at the top. Poor hitters like Stubbs and Cozart bat at the top of the lineup because Dusty put them there.

Dusty is the one that has been quoted numerous times saying that OBP does not lead to improved run scoring.

Dusty is the one that insists on bunting when even a successful bunt would reduce the team's run expectancy for the inning.

Walt isn't perfect and could probably have acquired better players for Dusty over the years, but you can't assign Dusty the credit for the good things then blame Walt for all the bad things. They are in this together.

osuceltic
10-12-2012, 04:23 PM
Not when you are giving your poor OPS guys more plate appearances per game than your best OPS guys.

It's not nearly that simple.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 04:23 PM
It's not nearly that simple.

That's all you got?

osuceltic
10-12-2012, 04:24 PM
That's all you got?

Your 7:05 post isn't very good either.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Your 7:05 post isn't very good either.

OK. Thanks for sharing.

Johnny Footstool
10-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Alright, break it up. Enough grappling. Touch gloves and fight cleanly.

Vottomatic
10-12-2012, 04:33 PM
I don't hate Dusty. I think he's a good man that brought chemistry to a clubhouse full of young guys.

But his bullheadedness regarding the lineup and his usual bit of watching the wheels fall off when everyone is screaming to do something has driven me crazy for years.

There are plusses and minuses to being a player's manager. Sure, they like you and they play for you. But it makes it hard to do certain manuevers that might upset players during a game.

At this point, I'd rather have a strategical guy than a team Dad as manager.

nemesis
10-12-2012, 04:49 PM
Well one thing is for certain. Walt already has his replacement in line and the guy probably has already agreed to manage the team if/when Dusty declines. I'm sure they'll do a dog and pony search for show. But there is zero chance that this move was made by Walt without a fallback option in place. Not his style.

Speculation: Riggleman

westofyou
10-12-2012, 04:56 PM
Well one thing is for certain. Walt already has his replacement in line and the guy probably has already agreed to manage the team if/when Dusty declines. I'm sure they'll do a dog and pony search for show. But there is zero chance that this move was made by Walt without a fallback option in place. Not his style.

Speculation: Riggleman

No thanks

He's a pudtz and a quitter

nemesis
10-12-2012, 05:13 PM
No thanks

He's a pudtz and a quitter

Somewhat. But he had the Nats contending without. Stratasburg, Gio and Harper. He started the upward culture in DC.

My main reasoning is he knows how to handle Vets and he is now somewhat familiar to some extent of the next crop of Reds players. He had DiDi, H-Rod, Hamilton, LaMarre, Lutz, Vidal, Barnhart, Fellhauser, Smith, Corcino, Cingrani, Lotzkar, Rodgers, Villrreal, Freeman, Hayes, Manno, Partch at some point this year and already has some idea of each players strengths and weaknesses. He'd also be more likely to use them correctly.

I'm probably wrong. But the next manager of the Reds needs to be more position player rookie friendly.

vic715
10-12-2012, 05:23 PM
I agree,a one year contract is a slap in the face and no way he takes it.

REDREAD
10-12-2012, 05:25 PM
Maybe Walt can get him some better OBP guys.

Yes, I agree. Not that I'm bashing Walt, but most of the season, Dusty was forced to use Phillips at cleanup (where he excelled). Dusty didn't have any good OBP guys to use at the top of the order (Hannigan doesn't count).

And honestly, the team won 97(?) games.. I don't really think Dusty's lineups did any harm.. I think Dusty invested a lot of time in Stubbs, trying to get him to breakout. By the time the playoffs came around, he put Stubbs in #8, which is what the lineup gurus would recommend. I can see why Dusty was trying to give Stubbs every opportunity to win a top of the order spot.. Dusty's patience pays off some times.

I hope Dusty comes back, although I have confidence Walt and Cast can find an adequate replacement if they must. If Dusty wants to come back, I hope they let him.

westofyou
10-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Somewhat. But he had the Nats contending without. Stratasburg, Gio and Harper. He started the upward culture in DC.

My main reasoning is he knows how to handle Vets and he is now somewhat familiar to some extent of the next crop of Reds players. He had DiDi, H-Rod, Hamilton, LaMarre, Lutz, Vidal, Barnhart, Fellhauser, Smith, Corcino, Cingrani, Lotzkar, Rodgers, Villrreal, Freeman, Hayes, Manno, Partch at some point this year and already has some idea of each players strengths and weaknesses. He'd also be more likely to use them correctly.

I'm probably wrong. But the next manager of the Reds needs to be more position player rookie friendly.

The next manager needs to have dugout smarts more than hand holding abilities, it would be nice if he didn't quit on his team either.

Riggleman has 4 90 loss plus seasons and has managed 4 teams, I don't see the allure of him at all

757690
10-12-2012, 05:28 PM
I think Dusty might only want one year deals from now on. With his health issues, he would like the flexibility to walk away from managing if they become an issue again. I just don't see Dusty quitting with years left on his contract.

WVPacman
10-12-2012, 05:30 PM
I think Dusty might only want one year deals from now on. With his health issues, he would like the flexibility to walk away from managing if they become an issue again. I just don't see Dusty quitting with years left on his contract.

This is why I don't think he should come back.He is up there in age and as you said he is starting to have health problems.

Superdude
10-12-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm probably wrong. But the next manager of the Reds needs to be more position player rookie friendly.

What's Dusty done wrong on this front? Cozart started the whole year as a rookie at a key position. Rolen put up an .849 OPS post all star break and still plays circles around Frazier defensively, so it's not hard to understand that decision. He still got the Toddfather 400+ at bats. I'd rather be more "best player friendly" and hope that our rookies fit that title.

cinreds21
10-12-2012, 05:41 PM
Well one thing is for certain. Walt already has his replacement in line and the guy probably has already agreed to manage the team if/when Dusty declines. I'm sure they'll do a dog and pony search for show. But there is zero chance that this move was made by Walt without a fallback option in place. Not his style.

Speculation: Riggleman

If Dusty leaves, I will be almost shocked if David Bell isn't his replacement. I dont' know anything first hand, but just the tone I've heard over the years and how things have been handled make me believe that is the course the Reds are on.

Yes, Riggleman has managed some prospects for the Reds, but David Bell has as well. Frazier, Heisey, Cozart, Ondrusek, Villarreal, Mesoraco, Did, Rodriguez, Soto, Phipps, Negron and has interacted with others during rehab stints and of course Spring Training.

fearofpopvol1
10-12-2012, 06:32 PM
Would Price leave if Dusty left? That's one thing that gives me major pause. I am a huge fan of Price and want him here no matter what.

Redlegs
10-12-2012, 06:37 PM
I know I am firmly in the minority but I really hope he returns.

I'm with ya. I'd be fine if Dusty returns for 2013. I think the players respond to him. The grass ain't always greener. Just ask the Red Sox about their Bobby Valentine experiment.

KoryMac5
10-12-2012, 07:12 PM
I agree,a one year contract is a slap in the face and no way he takes it.

How do we know that though, with his health issues and his son getting older maybe he only wants one more yr.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 07:35 PM
What's Dusty done wrong on this front? Cozart started the whole year as a rookie at a key position. Rolen put up an .849 OPS post all star break and still plays circles around Frazier defensively, so it's not hard to understand that decision. He still got the Toddfather 400+ at bats. I'd rather be more "best player friendly" and hope that our rookies fit that title.

Cozart is 27 years old. Yes he is technically a rookie, but he had to wait an awfully long time to break into the major leagues even though he was clearly better than the likes of Paul Janish and washed up veterans Orlando Cabrera and Edgar Renteria. Todd Frazier is 26. These guys aren't raw youngsters.

I don't necessarily agree with the notion that Dusty favors vets and doesn't like young players, but there is some degree of evidence to that effect. Some really bad veteran under-performers (like Cairo and Valdez for example) have gotten a lot of playing time in recent seasons that could have been more wisely utilized by giving it to some younger options. Dusty will play the elite prospects like Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey, but the less heralded prospects basically have to wait until everyone else completely fails before getting a shot.

RedsManRick
10-12-2012, 07:43 PM
Cozart is 27 years old. Yes he is technically a rookie, but he had to wait an awfully long time to break into the major leagues even though he was clearly better than the likes of Paul Janish and washed up veterans Orlando Cabrera and Edgar Renteria. Todd Frazier is 26. These guys aren't raw youngsters.

You do realize Cozart hit .246/.288/.399 this year, right? How much better than Renteria's .251/.306/.348 in 2011 or Orland Cabrera's .263/.303/.354 in 2010 is that?

In 2010, Cozart hit .255/.310/.416 in his first go at AAA while Edgar Renteria was hitting .276/.332/.374 for the Giants. During 2011, Cozart's performance was driven largely by a .348 BABIP. In 2012, his peripherals were very similar, but his BABIP regressed closer to expected and his overall performance dropped accordingly.

I wanted Cozart at the start of 2011 too. But let's not act like Dusty was keeping Mike Trout in the minors for Vernon Wells.

Superdude
10-12-2012, 08:09 PM
Cozart is 27 years old. Yes he is technically a rookie, but he had to wait an awfully long time to break into the major leagues even though he was clearly better than the likes of Paul Janish and washed up veterans Orlando Cabrera and Edgar Renteria. Todd Frazier is 26. These guys aren't raw youngsters.

I don't necessarily agree with the notion that Dusty favors vets and doesn't like young players, but there is some degree of evidence to that effect. Some really bad veteran under-performers (like Cairo and Valdez for example) have gotten a lot of playing time in recent seasons that could have been more wisely utilized by giving it to some younger options. Dusty will play the elite prospects like Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey, but the less heralded prospects basically have to wait until everyone else completely fails before getting a shot.

The first paragraph just makes no sense to me. How does signing free agents and player development fall into Dusty's lap at all? I hated the two headed monster of Janish and Renteria as much as the next guy, but it's kind of hard for Baker to play a guy who's not on the roster. And Cairo and Valdez is really grasping straws. Who are you calling up that fits those needs?

vic715
10-12-2012, 08:13 PM
How do we know that though, with his health issues and his son getting older maybe he only wants one more yr.

All we do know is that Dusty has said that he wants to manage somewhere.Now even if he only wants to manage only one year wouldn't the security of another year is there if he changes his mind.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 08:16 PM
You do realize Cozart hit .246/.288/.399 this year, right? How much better than Renteria's .251/.306/.348 in 2011 or Orland Cabrera's .263/.303/.354 in 2010 is that?

In 2010, Cozart hit .255/.310/.416 in his first go at AAA while Edgar Renteria was hitting .276/.332/.374 for the Giants. During 2011, Cozart's performance was driven largely by a .348 BABIP. In 2012, his peripherals were very similar, but his BABIP regressed closer to expected and his overall performance dropped accordingly.

I wanted Cozart at the start of 2011 too. But let's not act like Dusty was keeping Mike Trout in the minors for Vernon Wells.

Yeah that is what I was saying. :rolleyes: I never said Zack Cozart was a superstar. Did you read the post? Maybe you should try to understand the point I was making before making a hyper-agressive attack post in reply?

I was replying to someone else who was saying that since Cozart was playing as a rookie it means Dusty doesn't favor vets. Citing a 27 year old rookie doesn't boost that argument. Cozart was not a good example to show that Dusty likes young players -- because Cozart isn't young. I even said I didn't agree with the notion that Dusty won't play rookies and even listed some rookies that he did in fact play when they were truly young and were better examples than Cozart.

And yes, Zack Cozart is a much better option at the plate because of his power. His hitting is likely to improve now that he has a season of major league experience under his belt. In the field Cozart is light years better than those two over the hill retreads. Cozart is a big upgrade now and would have been last year and the year before too. He was certainly much superior to the utility players like Wilson Valdez, Paul Janish and others the last two years that have gotten so much playing time.

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 08:22 PM
The first paragraph just makes no sense to me. How does signing free agents and player development fall into Dusty's lap at all? I hated the two headed monster of Janish and Renteria as much as the next guy, but it's kind of hard for Baker to play a guy who's not on the roster. And Cairo and Valdez is really grasping straws. Who are you calling up that fits those needs?

You don't think Dusty Baker has any input over which free agents are signed to play for his team? Of course Dusty has a lot to do with deciding which players to bring in. Jocketty isn't out there doing whatever he pleases without working together with Dusty to get players he wants. Dusty has a LOT more to do with roster construction that you think he does. There is nobody on this team that Dusty Baker didn't want. I am sure there are players that Dusty wanted but Jocketty couldn't acquire as well, but the notion that Dusty is helplessly forced to use players he didn't want on the team is not accurate.

Superdude
10-12-2012, 08:30 PM
You don't think Dusty Baker has any input over which free agents are signed to play for his team? Of course Dusty has a lot to do with deciding which players to bring in. Jocketty isn't out there doing whatever he pleases without working together with Dusty to get players he wants. Dusty has a LOT more to do with roster construction that you think he does. There is nobody on this team that Dusty Baker didn't want. I am sure there are players that Dusty wanted but Jocketty couldn't acquire as well, but the notion that Dusty is helplessly forced to use players he didn't want on the team is not accurate.

Alright. You've clearly been managing major league baseball teams more than I have. This entire response is the equivalent of saying, "You're wrong because I just know."

AtomicDumpling
10-12-2012, 08:33 PM
Alright. You've clearly been managing major league baseball teams more than I have. This entire response is the equivalent of saying, "You're wrong because I just know."

Why? Because I asked you a question you don't want to answer?

So do you believe the manager has no input regarding which players on are his team? I believe they do.

It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.

Gallen5862
10-12-2012, 09:11 PM
How about trying to get Bobby Cox to manage? It's unlikely he would want to come out of retirement. It could be worth a shot that he misses managing.

cincrazy
10-12-2012, 09:15 PM
Why? Because I asked you a question you don't want to answer?

So do you believe the manager has no input regarding which players on are his team? I believe they do.

It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.

Do you ever stop to think maybe you're being a little hostile about the Dusty situation, and it's getting on people's nerves? No he's not a perfect manager. Fine, you want a change. Many do. But do you really think, with a different manager, things would've been any different? He doesn't make a dramatic difference. But I don't believe he hurts the team. You can cite all the negatives, many of them which I won't disagree with. But I can cite just as many positives. At worst, he's neutral.

I respect you as a poster, never had a problem with you. And still don't. But you're showing little respect for a man, IMO, that deserves more than his fair share.

Of course the manager has some input with players. But do you really think Walt would sign off on it if he disagreed? Dusty gives input, but the bottom line is Walt decides. Dusty can only put the guys on the field that he's given. Lineup construction an issue? We won 97 games. Look at this roster. Can you see us squeezing out that many more wins with what we have? For all the whining people do about the crap players we have and how much they play, we STILL won 97 games. Dusty deserves no credit for that?

Be careful what you wish for, my friend. A new manager is likely to leave you shaking your head and muttering yourself just the same. Yankee fans complained about Torre. Braves fans about Cox. Cardinals fans about LaRussa. Everyone has their flaws.

edabbs44
10-12-2012, 11:00 PM
It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.

And vice versa. For years.

Superdude
10-12-2012, 11:33 PM
Why? Because I asked you a question you don't want to answer?

So do you believe the manager has no input regarding which players on are his team? I believe they do.

It sounds like some people want to give Dusty credit for the players who performed well, but the blame for the bad players goes to Walt Jocketty.

You didn't ask a question, you pretty much just said I was wrong. Let's just be honest here and admit that neither of us know a single thing about what roles the manager and general manager fill. It's a little abrasive to imply you do.

Team Clark
10-12-2012, 11:39 PM
Would Price leave if Dusty left? That's one thing that gives me major pause. I am a huge fan of Price and want him here no matter what.

I'd seriously doubt Price would leave because of Dusty. He was hired independent of Dusty and has one of the best pitching staffs in all of baseball. Not likely to give up that gig.

I honestly believe that Price is one of, if not the best, pitching coach in all of baseball. Mike Maddux is very good and others have had sustained success. Price is just THAT good. His complete understanding of mechanics, ability to teach adjustments, keep the staff on a strict schedule and play psychologist to a very diverse, dynamic crew is remarkable. No way I let him walk. :thumbup:

AtomicDumpling
10-13-2012, 12:04 AM
You didn't ask a question, you pretty much just said I was wrong. Let's just be honest here and admit that neither of us know a single thing about what roles the manager and general manager fill. It's a little abrasive to imply you do.

No, I asked a question and you didn't want to answer. Yes, I think we both know quite a bit about the roles of a GM and a manager. It is not a secret. I don't think that is abrasive at all.

Superdude
10-13-2012, 12:16 AM
No, I asked a question and you didn't want to answer. Yes, I think we both know quite a bit about the roles of a GM and a manager. It is not a secret. I don't think that is abrasive at all.

I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.

AtomicDumpling
10-13-2012, 12:19 AM
Do you ever stop to think maybe you're being a little hostile about the Dusty situation, and it's getting on people's nerves? No he's not a perfect manager. Fine, you want a change. Many do. But do you really think, with a different manager, things would've been any different? He doesn't make a dramatic difference. But I don't believe he hurts the team. You can cite all the negatives, many of them which I won't disagree with. But I can cite just as many positives. At worst, he's neutral.

I respect you as a poster, never had a problem with you. And still don't. But you're showing little respect for a man, IMO, that deserves more than his fair share.

Of course the manager has some input with players. But do you really think Walt would sign off on it if he disagreed? Dusty gives input, but the bottom line is Walt decides. Dusty can only put the guys on the field that he's given. Lineup construction an issue? We won 97 games. Look at this roster. Can you see us squeezing out that many more wins with what we have? For all the whining people do about the crap players we have and how much they play, we STILL won 97 games. Dusty deserves no credit for that?

Be careful what you wish for, my friend. A new manager is likely to leave you shaking your head and muttering yourself just the same. Yankee fans complained about Torre. Braves fans about Cox. Cardinals fans about LaRussa. Everyone has their flaws.

No I am not hostile about the Dusty situation. I am entitled to an opinion too. I have said many, many times that Dusty is an average manager. For some reason there are a lot of people that get all upset if someone doesn't think Dusty Baker is a fantastic manager. I gave my opinion that he is not fantastic and that he does have flaws, some of which are glaringly obvious. Some people can't handle it when I say that. He also has strengths which I have detailed several times in various threads. I respect Dusty Baker, but I don't think he was a major reason why the 2012 Reds were so much better than Dusty's 2011 Reds.

The "we won 97 games" refrain is meaningless. Dusty is the same manager doing the same things as 2011 when the team had a losing record. The same criticisms from 2011 are still valid today. Unless you think that Dusty Baker is the reason the Reds won 20 more games this year than last year then it is unfair to say that Dusty is immune from all criticism because the Reds won 97 games this year. If Dusty is the reason the Reds improved so much then why didn't Dusty do it last year? Was he as awful last year as he was great this year? Clearly, the reason the Reds won 97 games this year is the addition of Mat Latos, Ryan Ludwick, Todd Frazier, Zack Cozart and Sean Marshall. Dusty was just along for the ride doing the same things he has always done. I don't think Dusty really deserves much of the credit for the 97 win season. I don't think he managed much better than he did last year. He is a decent manager, but definitely replaceable if you don't think decent is good enough.

I believe that the talent on this team if utilized properly could have scored quite a few more runs over the course of the season. So yes, the Reds would likely have won a few more games with a manager that was better at lineup construction and in-game strategy than Dusty Baker was.

I also believe that Bryan Price has much more effect on the team's won/loss record than Dusty Baker does.

AtomicDumpling
10-13-2012, 12:25 AM
I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.

OK. Good answer.

I believe that Walt and Dusty speak almost every day during the season and frequently in the off-season. They discuss the players. They discuss which ones Dusty would like to replace and which ones he wants to keep. They discuss potential replacements from other organizations and free agents. Dusty tells Walt which players he wants to acquire. Walt listens. Walt shares his opinions. They come to a consensus. They make a list of players they both want. Walt goes out and tries to sign or trade for those players that both he and Dusty like. I don't think Walt goes out and gets players that Dusty doesn't want anything to do with. The players they acquire are guys that both of them wanted. They may not be their first choices, but they were all on their mutual list of targets. They are working together to build the best team they can. Both of them deserve credit and blame for the roster.

Superdude
10-13-2012, 12:35 AM
OK. Good answer.

I believe that Walt and Dusty speak almost every dayduring the season and frequently in the off-season. They discuss the players. They discuss which ones Dusty would like to replace and which ones he wants to keep. They discuss potential replacements from other organizations and free agents. Dusty tells Walt which players he wants to acquire. Walt listens. Walt shares his opinions. They come to a consensus. They make a list of players they both want. Walt goes out and tries to sign or trade for those players that both he and Dusty like. I don't think Walt goes out and gets players that Dusty doesn't want anything to do with. The players they acquire are guys that both of them wanted. They may not be their first choices, but they were all on their mutual list of targets. They are working together to build the best team they can. Both of them deserve credit and blame for the roster.

:thumbup: Good answer as well. I think we've covered enough ground that one of us might even be right!

traderumor
10-13-2012, 07:13 PM
I'll be glad to answer: I've always been of the belief that the GM makes the roster and the manager manages it. Walt signed Valdez and wrote up the contract for Cairo. Dusty for sure had input, but I find it hard to believe Jocketty is giving Dusty everything he wants considering those decisions likely come back on him more than Dusty. This is entirely my foggy perception of what may or may not happen behind closed doors though.Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.

Superdude
10-13-2012, 07:29 PM
Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.

;) I never even said anything negative about Cairo, let alone ran him into ground powder. I actually completely agree. Dude was a solid role player the last few years. LIke I said in another thread, take a 200 at bat sample from any utility player and it's not always going to be pretty.

AtomicDumpling
10-13-2012, 07:32 PM
Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.

Cairo embarrassed himself this year. He was simply awful both at the plate and in the field.

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-13-2012, 07:48 PM
Cairo deserves more respect than that. He hurt his hamstring early in the year and never really recovered. Regardless, the Reds got a lot of value from him off the bench in his entire stay here, so some slack should be in order for him having a subpar year. Probably asking too much though. We're RZ, we must run guys into ground powder.

So the Reds were playing even more short than we thought a lot of the time. I like Miguel Cairo, but even at 100 percent I'm not sure he's an answer. If he was hurt, why was he still here? And why was no move made at the deadline to upgrade/replace an admittedly injured player?

AmarilloRed
10-13-2012, 11:45 PM
I didn't see it mentioned, but the article also said the Reds are looking to bring back all the other coaches.

GAC
10-14-2012, 09:38 AM
So with some, I guess they should have left Dusty off the post-season roster too. LOL

Tony Cloninger
10-14-2012, 04:41 PM
I am not really surprised they would bring back Jacoby. He is only an extension of what Dusty wants in a hitting philosophy.

VR
10-14-2012, 05:56 PM
I am not really surprised they would bring back Jacoby. He is only an extension of what Dusty wants in a hitting philosophy.

I can't think of a hitter that's progressed in his hitting acumen on this team since Jacoby arrived.

cincrazy
10-14-2012, 06:40 PM
I can't think of a hitter that's progressed in his hitting acumen on this team since Jacoby arrived.

I'm not a Jacoby fan, but I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. He's been given a lot of guys with very poor track records that nobody could help. Frazier surprised this year, Ludwick turned his career around, Voto went from a good hitter to arguably the best in the NL, Bruce continues to progress. If we're going to blame him for a lot of the failures, he also deserves some credit.

I would like to see a change, but I want to see a change in philosophy more than anything. It's a broader problem than just Jacoby.

George Foster
10-14-2012, 10:39 PM
I'm not a Jacoby fan, but I don't think that's an entirely fair statement. He's been given a lot of guys with very poor track records that nobody could help. Frazier surprised this year, Ludwick turned his career around, Voto went from a good hitter to arguably the best in the NL, Bruce continues to progress. If we're going to blame him for a lot of the failures, he also deserves some credit.

I would like to see a change, but I want to see a change in philosophy more than anything. It's a broader problem than just Jacoby.

I don't know if he would want to do it because he has a pretty good gig at MLB but "The Mayor" Sean Casey could rake! Lifetime .300 hitter. I would love his enthusiasm and positive attitude on the beach. He had a great work ethic, and would work day and night with the hitters if ask too. He would have instant respect and credibility as a hitting coach.

Wonderful Monds
10-14-2012, 10:40 PM
I don't know if he would want to do it because he has a pretty good gig at MLB but "The Mayor" Sean Casey could rake! Lifetime .300 hitter. I would love his enthusiasm and positive attitude on the beach. He had a great work ethic, and would work day and night with the hitters if ask too. He would have instant respect and credibility as a hitting coach.
I could get on board with that.

George Foster
10-14-2012, 10:42 PM
I could get on board with that.

He batted left handed, I think he could turn Bruce into a MVP candidate.

VR
10-15-2012, 12:51 AM
I don't know if he would want to do it because he has a pretty good gig at MLB but "The Mayor" Sean Casey could rake! Lifetime .300 hitter. I would love his enthusiasm and positive attitude on the beach. He had a great work ethic, and would work day and night with the hitters if ask too. He would have instant respect and credibility as a hitting coach.

Upgrade for sure

paulrichjr
10-15-2012, 12:55 PM
I don't know if he would want to do it because he has a pretty good gig at MLB but "The Mayor" Sean Casey could rake! Lifetime .300 hitter. I would love his enthusiasm and positive attitude on the beach. He had a great work ethic, and would work day and night with the hitters if ask too. He would have instant respect and credibility as a hitting coach.

This would be a complete bust. Look at another team in our division that hired an ex-star of theirs to be hitting coach even though he had very little experience with it....Cardinals and Mark McGwire

CySeymour
10-15-2012, 01:30 PM
This would be a complete bust. Look at another team in our division that hired an ex-star of theirs to be hitting coach even though he had very little experience with it....Cardinals and Mark McGwire

I don't know if I follow your logic. The Cards have brought along youngsters David Freese and Alan Craig with McGwire as hitting coach.

MWM
10-15-2012, 01:33 PM
Someone with Sean Casey's hitting style should never be teaching hitting, IMO.

westofyou
10-15-2012, 02:15 PM
Someone with Sean Casey's hitting style should never be teaching hitting, IMO.

Yep and golly gee he'd have a hard time climbing up a guys butt and well gee, he'd think everyone would come around eventually

CySeymour
10-15-2012, 02:16 PM
‏@Reds
#Reds extend Dusty's contract for 2 seasons, through 2014. Press conference at 3:00 at GABP.

Tom Servo
10-15-2012, 02:23 PM
Gosh damnit.

George Anderson
10-15-2012, 02:24 PM
Yep and golly gee he'd have a hard time climbing up a guys butt and well gee, he'd think everyone would come around eventually

If not a nice hug would make it all better.

Oh I should stop, he is a nice guy and signs autographs afterall.

George Anderson
10-15-2012, 02:26 PM
It is being reported Baker's contract is extended for 2 years.

3:00 press conference at GABP.

CySeymour
10-15-2012, 02:27 PM
It is being reported Baker's contract is extended for 2 years.

3:00 press conference at GABP.

hmmm, wish I would have posted something about that :laugh:

redsfan30
10-15-2012, 02:27 PM
I know I am in the minority but I really love this news!

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Welcome back Drew Stubbs and Miguel Cairo!

HotCorner
10-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Welcome back Drew Stubbs and Miguel Cairo!

When did Dusty become the GM?

DGullett35
10-15-2012, 03:41 PM
I like Dusty and the players seem to love playing for him. I think Walt makes some moves to improve the clubs weak areas and hopefully we get a new hitting coach. These guys need another voice with the exception of 3 or 4 of them.

Big Klu
10-15-2012, 05:44 PM
Someone with Sean Casey's hitting style should never be teaching hitting, IMO.


Yep and golly gee he'd have a hard time climbing up a guys butt and well gee, he'd think everyone would come around eventually

I don't know if he's ever coached, or if he would even be interested in coaching, but I've always thought that Kevin Mitchell would make a great hitting coach.

Chip R
10-15-2012, 11:38 PM
I don't know if he's ever coached, or if he would even be interested in coaching, but I've always thought that Kevin Mitchell would make a great hitting coach.

Actually he has. In 2000, while working as a manager for the minor league Sonoma County Crushers, Mitchell was suspended after punching another teamís manager in the face during a brawl.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/26/former-padre-kevin-mitchell-arrested-in-battery-ca/

VR
10-16-2012, 01:39 AM
I don't know if he's ever coached, or if he would even be interested in coaching, but I've always thought that Kevin Mitchell would make a great hitting coach.

He bats cleanup on my buddies MSBL team.

GAC
10-16-2012, 06:14 AM
This.

If Dusty is using too many of the wrong guys, then Walt should trade them or let them go.

Yep. And I like Walt, but Walt is known as a Traditionalist just as much as Dusty. That's a fact.

And I keep hearing that Walt, somehow, didn't want Dusty to return, wanted to replace him, and that Castellini obviously has "over-ruled" Walt. Where has that ever been indicated?

GAC
10-16-2012, 06:17 AM
Actually he has. In 2000, while working as a manager for the minor league Sonoma County Crushers, Mitchell was suspended after punching another teamís manager in the face during a brawl.

So he's one of those that believes in swinging to make contact? :p

GAC
10-16-2012, 06:26 AM
Yep and golly gee he'd have a hard time climbing up a guys butt and well gee, he'd think everyone would come around eventually

How could they follow his instructions? The guy talks (races) like he's had 10 cups of Expresso, 5 Red Bulls, and a gallon of 5 Hour Energies! LOL

Chip R
10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
Oh, man! We should have waited to extend Dusty until talking to Jason Giambi like the Rockies are.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8511042/jason-giambi-interview-colorado-rockies-managerial-job-report-says