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View Full Version : Just saw Mike Matheny on MLB & I know what the Cardinals have!!!



redsrolen
10-13-2012, 07:43 PM
Just saw Mike Matheny on MLB & it hit me like a ton of bricks!!! Did you witness their dugout?? I sure did & we don't have one bit of it.....I saw Carpenter, Schumaker & later Wainwright when he was out of the lineup with nonstop cheering, greeting each player, back slaps...you know the whole bit...
Matheny said he'd never seen anything like it....It was like a HS football locker room...He said instead of Wainwright hanging his head he was up cheering like crazy...He said they have a never say die attitude....I know what your thinking, we make alot of comebacks...sure we do...to what teams?? great teams?? Sure some, if someone strings some hits together...Our M.O. is sit by yourself or next to one guy & everyone just hopes...no chatter at all....Sure I believe Frazier will be great for this but we need a couple more....This to me is the answer....Winners don't know how to lose....

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 07:55 PM
The Cardinals are an awesome team.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 07:59 PM
Luck is what the Cardinals have that the Reds don't.

cw0802
10-13-2012, 08:08 PM
Luck is what the Cardinals have that the Reds don't.

Old sauce, dude.

I used to think you had valid points, now I realize it is all soaked in bitterness.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 08:09 PM
Old sauce, dude.

I used to think you had valid points, now I realize it is all soaked in bitterness.


The Cardinals had the 11th best record in all of MLB and 13 of the 14 games over .500 came vs the Majors 3 worst teams. They won 41% of their season total of wins vs teams that had 90 losses or more.

To put that 41% of wins vs 90 loss or more teams into perspective a team like the Angels missed the playoffs and had more wins than the Cardinals but won just 27% of their wins vs 90 loss clubs.

They Angles had just 3 wins vs the 3 worst MLB teams while the Cardinals had 26!

Also for the record I was here saying how dumb the 2nd Wild Card was before the Cards even were leading in it over the Pirates let alone winning in the playoffs from the spot.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 08:27 PM
Luck is what the Cardinals have that the Reds don't.

...and faith, grit, a good manager and playoff experience.

cw0802
10-13-2012, 08:35 PM
The Cardinals had the 11th best record in all of MLB and 13 of the 14 games over .500 came vs the Majors 3 worst teams. They won 41% of their season total of wins vs teams that had 90 losses or more.

To put that 41% of wins vs 90 loss or more teams into perspective a team like the Angels missed the playoffs and had more wins than the Cardinals but won just 27% of their wins vs 90 loss clubs.

They Angles had just 3 wins vs the 3 worst MLB teams while the Cardinals had 26!

Also for the record I was here saying how dumb the 2nd Wild Card was before the Cards even were leading in it over the Pirates let alone winning in the playoffs from the spot.


Is it the Cardinals fault they qualified for the postseason under the current system?

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 08:50 PM
Is it the Cardinals fault they qualified for the postseason under the current system?

No its not their fault but it doesn't make them any less lucky.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 08:55 PM
No its not their fault but it doesn't make them any less lucky.

The Cardinals earn their luck with hard work, faith, grit and determination.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 08:56 PM
...and faith, grit, a good manager and playoff experience.

They don't have a good manager at all, Matheny cost them countless games this year and is the reason why they have a losing record on the road, in 1 run games and in extra innings games.

The 3 wins they won vs the Nats in the DS they scored 9.67 runs per game taking all managing out of his hands, the two they lost came on bad moves by MM that both changed the game.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 09:02 PM
The Cardinals earn their luck with hard work, faith, grit and determination.

Or getting 41% of the wins vs teams with 90 or more losses, I doubt any of those 3 thing you least affect the Cards have the two worst teams in the majors playing in their Division.

The Cards had tied with the 29th easiest SOS in MLB this year and had tied for the 11th most wins in baseball.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 09:02 PM
They don't have a good manager at all, Matheny cost them countless games this year and is the reason why they have a losing record on the road, in 1 run games and in extra innings games.

The 3 wins they won vs the Nats in the DS they scored 9.67 runs per game taking all managing out of his hands, the two they lost came on bad moves by MM that both changed the game.

Matheny is a great manager and will only get better once his buddy Scott Rolen joins him in St.Louis next season as 1st base coach.

cw0802
10-13-2012, 09:02 PM
They don't have a good manager at all, Matheny cost them countless games this year and is the reason why they have a losing record on the road, in 1 run games and in extra innings games.

The 3 wins they won vs the Nats in the DS they scored 9.67 runs per game taking all managing out of his hands, the two they lost came on bad moves by MM that both changed the game.

I'll agree here. Matheny isn't a great manager but he's not horrible. There's a learning process, but it definitely helps having guys like Beltran, Berkman, Molina and Carpenter in the clubhouse.

I would argue that the game 1 loss couldn't be placed on MM. The hit that drove in the winning run was a pitch outside to a dead pull hitter who flicked his bat at it. If you want to call anything lucky, that was it. But it fell so it is what it is, and the Nats got the credit.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 09:07 PM
Matheny is a great manager and will only get better once his buddy Scott Rolen joins him in St.Louis next season as 1st base coach.

No wonder Missouri is the meth capital of the world, if anyone thinks Matheny is a great manager then they most be on drugs. He's not even a good manager, no team in the majors has their manager cost them more games than the Cardinals.

The Cards win when they play at a level that limits his moves, if they needs to be a key BP more or a double switch he will mess it up that's why they sucked having a losing record on the road, one run games and extra inning games. Which also carried over to 0-2 in the playoffs in one run games.

cw0802
10-13-2012, 09:11 PM
Honest question. Should I get a pizza, or tacos for dinner?

mckbearcat48
10-13-2012, 09:13 PM
Honest question. Should I get a pizza, or tacos for dinner?

Go with the pizza.

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 09:27 PM
I'll agree here. Matheny isn't a great manager but he's not horrible. There's a learning process, but it definitely helps having guys like Beltran, Berkman, Molina and Carpenter in the clubhouse.

I would argue that the game 1 loss couldn't be placed on MM. The hit that drove in the winning run was a pitch outside to a dead pull hitter who flicked his bat at it. If you want to call anything lucky, that was it. But it fell so it is what it is, and the Nats got the credit.

He lost game one by getting worked over by Johnson terrible bad. The Cards took off when they got Mujica and it set up him Boggs and Motte in the 7-9 taking all the BP moves out of his hands. When they did good they worked the innings regardless of the splits.

In the 8th he used Mujica and had Boggs in but Johnson went to bring a LH bat up in Tracy. MM got jumpy and went to get the LHP Rzepczynski so Davey went to RH hitter Moore and we all know what happened. He took out a 2.21 ERA, 1.05 WHIP and .211 BAA for a guy who had a 4.24 ERA, 1.35 WHIP and .257 BAA and put the worse guy into a poor match up.

In game 4 in the 9th he could have went to Mujica, Motte his two key arms but went to Lynn who has sucked out of the pen this year in his first innings.

6.43 ERA and .355 out of the pen this year in RS and then 5.40 in the playoffs before the HR. The first batters of the game this year have a line of .438/.486/.906/1.392 and in his first inning of work his line was .330/.417/.643/1.060 these last two splits don't include the playoffs and we all know what happens the first guy hit a walk-off HR his 3 HR allowed of the series in 3.1 IP.

So he made two questionable moves and both cost him a pair of one run playoffs games.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 09:30 PM
He lost game one by getting worked over by Johnson terrible bad. The Cards took off when they got Mujica and it set up him Boggs and Motte in the 7-9 taking all the BP moves out of his hands. When they did good they worked the innings regardless of the splits.

In the 8th he used Mujica and had Boggs in but Johnson went to bring a LH bat up in Tracy. MM got jumpy and went to get the LHP Rzepczynski so Davey went to RH hitter Moore and we all know what happened. He took out a 2.21 ERA, 1.05 WHIP and .211 BAA for a guy who had a 4.24 ERA, 1.35 WHIP and .257 BAA and put the worse guy into a poor match up.

In game 4 in the 9th he could have went to Mujica, Motte his two key arms but went to Lynn who has sucked out of the pen this year in his first innings.

6.43 ERA and .355 out of the pen this year in RS and then 5.40 in the playoffs before the HR. The first batters of the game this year have a line of .438/.486/.906/1.392 and in his first inning of work his line was .330/.417/.643/1.060 these last two splits don't include the playoffs and we all know what happens the first guy hit a walk-off HR his 3 HR allowed of the series in 3.1 IP.

So he made two questionable moves and both cost him a pair of one run playoffs games.

Who got the better of who in game 5? Johnson or Matheny

Ironman92
10-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Johnson was awful....no merit there


Bob Brenly was ridiculous as a manager...but had 2 elite stud pitchers and another very good one plus a lot of good fortune....and a championship

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 09:59 PM
Who got the better of who in game 5? Johnson or Matheny

Neither did anything that game the Nats had good pitchers walk the park and the also made several mistakes in the field leading to runs.

Matheny did absolutely nothing to win the game other than stay out of the way if anything he made it harder on them to come back by letting Wainwright get beat up for 6 in 2.1 after that the game managed its self.

The only real mistake Johnson made was not having anyone but Jackson to go to in relief but if Stephen Strasburg was there he would have went multiple innings after Gio left.

Mastodon
10-13-2012, 10:05 PM
Our dugout was doing the same honestly.

redsrolen
10-13-2012, 10:14 PM
I never said they had a good manager because I don't think he is...yet....I said it's the dugout energy & that's it...Look, I'm no cards fan & I tend to throw up in my mouth looking at Carpenter...La Russa was a total jerk but he did one thing better than anyone...pulling his pitchers before they blew the game & IMHO he would have never let AW go that far...drove alot of people crazy how many pitchers he used but if Price or Dusty would have pulled Latos...we win...there wasn't a doubt in my mind Latos was gonna give up a bomb...but we watch & hope....
Also 'Hometown' don't give these trolls the time of day...they just want to jerk your chain...don't let them...I can't even imagine what kind of 'lowlife' goes to another site & puffs their tiny chests out...they're all text book...they try to bring you down to their level...there's a few nice ones but they're mostly tools...Block them Hometown...please
The purpose of this post was just to talk to only Red's fans of discuss what kind of person we need to step up.....:lastyear:

Tuff Nut
10-13-2012, 10:47 PM
Any UK hoops fans watch BBM last nite?.........bear with me Reds fans, what this team needs is a Matthew Mithellesque, dugout presence......Seriously, who wouldn't want to play for him.
I say promote Delino. Not sure if Bell is an answer, but DeShields seems to be on the fast track.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 10:51 PM
I never said they had a good manager because I don't think he is...yet....I said it's the dugout energy & that's it...Look, I'm no cards fan & I tend to throw up in my mouth looking at Carpenter...La Russa was a total jerk but he did one thing better than anyone...pulling his pitchers before they blew the game & IMHO he would have never let AW go that far...drove alot of people crazy how many pitchers he used but if Price or Dusty would have pulled Latos...we win...there wasn't a doubt in my mind Latos was gonna give up a bomb...but we watch & hope....
Also 'Hometown' don't give these trolls the time of day...they just want to jerk your chain...don't let them...I can't even imagine what kind of 'lowlife' goes to another site & puffs their tiny chests out...they're all text book...they try to bring you down to their level...there's a few nice ones but they're mostly tools...Block them Hometown...please
The purpose of this post was just to talk to only Red's fans of discuss what kind of person we need to step up.....:lastyear:

Chris Carpenter is an awesome player and probably a better teammate.

Much better player and person than that guy on the Reds that kicks players with his cleats.

foxfire123
10-13-2012, 10:52 PM
Guys, stop feeding the trolls. Arguing with stupid only drags you down to their neanderthal levels. We are Reds fans. We are above such behavior. We KNOW what *class* is like.

Tho I DO have to admit my friends, to stooping to their level this morning with A) I snapped hard at a coworker who crowed "The cardinals won! hahahaha" as soon as I walked into work today, and B) I told another co-worker that if he didn't get the F outta my face I was going to punch him in the weener. I am NOT a morning person, do not fark with me at 6am and only 4 hours sleep.....

HometownHero
10-13-2012, 10:58 PM
I love how dumb and insecure they are Fox, I also love how predicable they are. I called exactly what was going to happen here a full month before it happened if this scenario happened. We got one troll from the team that knocked us out but a team we didn't even play we have got 10 new members and 30+ guests.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 11:08 PM
What exactly is a Red?

Tuff Nut
10-13-2012, 11:12 PM
What exactly is a Red?
Something besides a little bitty red bird.........wooo I'm a cardinal....tweet tweet..

You are making a very weak attempt at smack.......I'd quit if I were you.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 11:35 PM
Something besides a little bitty red bird.........wooo I'm a cardinal....tweet tweet..

You are making a very weak attempt at smack.......I'd quit if I were you.

I am really curious what a Red is.

That is a very weak attempt at criticizing the Cardinals.:thumbdown:

Ironman92
10-13-2012, 11:39 PM
I am really curious what a Red is.

That is a very weak attempt at criticizing the Cardinals.:thumbdown:

It's likely the color of the skin blemish on your mom's neck.

Sodbuster
10-13-2012, 11:42 PM
HometownHero is pretty darn funny...I'll give him that. Not really sure what his point is about the Cardinals being lucky but I suspect it makes him feel better if it allows him to think of the Reds as unlucky. All I know is that if making it to the NLCS 7 out of the last 12 years and winning 2 WS titles during that span makes them lucky then I can live with that. It sure as hell beats the alternative.

This is coming from a Cards fan who actually likes the Reds and always has. I was really rooting for a matchup with them in the NLCS.

I'll leave now before I get accused of trolling...HometownHero-I hope u get over the loss quickly and can move on. You seem like you know your baseball but the postseason is way more than stats. Once you get there, you know as well as I do that you can pretty much throw out the regular season records and it comes down to heart and experience more often than not.

Peace out Reds fans...your time is coming.

birdsonthebat
10-13-2012, 11:43 PM
Reds...what a goofy name

what does it mean?

Tuff Nut
10-13-2012, 11:46 PM
I am really curious what a Red is.

That is a very weak attempt at criticizing the Cardinals.:thumbdown: Well given that there is not a 'smack' forum on this site,(which might not be a bad idea....eh Boss) I kept it family freindly.

cards11WChamps
10-14-2012, 02:25 PM
I've seen alot of Cardinals bashing on this forum and am relieved to see a post where someone finally gets it...that team is filled with a bunch of winners, that don't give up and are obsessed with picking each of their teammates up. I find it ironic that such criticism of the cards exists when the reds turnaround has the Cardinals footprints all over it. Ex Cardinals General Manger that has built one of the best teams in baseball. An Ex-Cardinal, Scott Rolen, that has provided leadership and work ethic to rest of team, despite his physical woes that led to a sub-par NLDS performance. The one player that came to play from games 1 to 5 in the NLDS, Ryan Ludwick, also a former Cardinal. Absolutely nothing lucky about what happened in Game 5 of this year's NLDS and in Game 6 of last years World Series....they grined out every pitch of both of those comebacks...Two of your best players on Friday working walks rather than swinging out of their shoes to tie the game with one swing to set up a light hitting utility player and unproven rookie for the win...that is what baseball is all about and why the Cards are still playing. The Reds had a great season and the future looks bright, but I would argue just don't possess the ingredients that this group of players have that don't show up in the line score and statistics at the end of the year. C'mon Reds fans, give credit where credit is due.

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 03:04 PM
Our dugout was doing the same honestly.

Exactly. It's absurd to accuse the Reds of not being emotionally involved in a deciding playoff game, one in which they were constantly one swing away from winning it. This club has been fighting adversity from game one and has overcome more the its share, mostly because of it's never say die, winning attitude.

To argue that the Cards are more "winners" than any other team is insulting, absurd and just plain ignorant. If they were such "winners" then why did they lose their division by 9 games? They sneak into the playoffs only because of a last minute rule change, get past the wild card game only because of the worst ump call in the history of MLB playoffs, and snuck past the Nat's only because the Nat's shut down their #1 starter.

The only difference between the Cards dugout and the Reds dugout in their respective game fives, is that the Reds dugout has less syringes, and less sandpaper/pinetar.

I am much prouder to be a Reds fan than a Cardinal fan, because while we might have lost our series, the Reds aren't constantly accused of cheating.

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 04:24 PM
They Angles had just 3 wins vs the 3 worst MLB teams while the Cardinals had 26!

LOL

The Angles[sic] only played 3 games against the 3 worst MLB teams, and went 3-0.

The Reds had 27 wins against the worst 3 MLB teams.

I fail to see the point you're trying to make.

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 05:54 PM
What exactly is a Red?

A Red is baseball player who plays on a team that doesn't use steroids, doesn't throw scuff balls, doesn't give the umps and oppsosing teams known false weather reports, doesn't cheat in anyway, doesn't rely on rule changes to make the playoffs, doesn't rely on blown ump calls to win games, and doesn't whine about how game balls are prepaid, or fireworks, or the mound, or anything else when they lose.

A Red is a classy baseball player who plays with integrity, pride and dignity. Of course, as a Cardinal fan, you wouldn't know nor understand anything about that.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 06:19 PM
I fail to see the point you're trying to make.

The Cardinals got into the playoffs as the team with the 11th best record by winning 41% of their games against teams that lost 90 or more games. A team like the Angels had a better record than the Cardinals and didn't make the playoffs since they didn't get to play as many bad teams.

This year was literally the only year the Cards make the playoffs in MLB history doing what they did. Any other year in baseball history there isn't a second WC and they got half of their games over .500 by having the MLB worst team in their division, in 2013 that team will be gone and so will the 12.5% of their wins this year including

The Astros being so godawful has changed the course of baseball history. Cards got them 15 times this year and the Dodgers got them 6 and they won the 2nd WC by 2 games, last year they got them 15 more times and the Braves got them 6 times and lost by 1 game.

Then after that you have the Royals factor, The Cards get them 6 times every year and they are averaging over 90 losses a year since Interleague play started. in 12, 11 and 06 the Cards won 4 games a year off them and made the playoffs by 2 games, 1 game and 1.5 games.

Its not the Cardinals fault they have such a gift schedule but it doesn't mean they aren't the luckiest team out there, because its clear they are if people stop at look at the numbers here. And that's before we even get onto the field for BABIP and then only to flow of the game breaks.

dubc47834
10-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Exactly. It's absurd to accuse the Reds of not being emotionally involved in a deciding playoff game, one in which they were constantly one swing away from winning it. This club has been fighting adversity from game one and has overcome more the its share, mostly because of it's never say die, winning attitude.

To argue that the Cards are more "winners" than any other team is insulting, absurd and just plain ignorant. If they were such "winners" then why did they lose their division by 9 games? They sneak into the playoffs only because of a last minute rule change, get past the wild card game only because of the worst ump call in the history of MLB playoffs, and snuck past the Nat's only because the Nat's shut down their #1 starter.

The only difference between the Cards dugout and the Reds dugout in their respective game fives, is that the Reds dugout has less syringes, and less sandpaper/pinetar.

I am much prouder to be a Reds fan than a Cardinal fan, because while we might have lost our series, the Reds aren't constantly accused of cheating.

Dude...I am a loyal Reds fan and avid Cards hater, but to say that that the only reason they beat the Braves was that bad call and that they made it past the Nats because Strasburg was shut down is obsurd to me. Even with a good call against the Braves they still probly win that game. Then the only reason they beat the Nats wasnt because Strasburg wasnt there. The Nats imploded those last few innings. I hate to say it but you gotta give credit where credit is due!!!

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 07:08 PM
Dude...I am a loyal Reds fan and avid Cards hater, but to say that that the only reason they beat the Braves was that bad call and that they made it past the Nats because Strasburg was shut down is obsurd to me. Even with a good call against the Braves they still probly win that game. Then the only reason they beat the Nats wasnt because Strasburg wasnt there. The Nats imploded those last few innings. I hate to say it but you gotta give credit where credit is due!!!

Never, I will never give credit to cheaters and whiners.

However, I will agree that I should have said, "mainly" instead of "only" with regards to the Braves game, the Braves played terribly too. I do stand by the fact that they don't make the playoffs without the rule change or beat the Nat's if Strasberg was on the postseason roster.

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 07:28 PM
The Cardinals got into the playoffs as the team with the 11th best record by winning 41% of their games against teams that lost 90 or more games. A team like the Angels had a better record than the Cardinals and didn't make the playoffs since they didn't get to play as many bad teams.

This year was literally the only year the Cards make the playoffs in MLB history doing what they did. Any other year in baseball history there isn't a second WC and they got half of their games over .500 by having the MLB worst team in their division, in 2013 that team will be gone and so will the 12.5% of their wins this year including
This isn't "any other year" and the 2nd WC is now part of the game.


The Astros being so godawful has changed the course of baseball history. Cards got them 15 times this year and the Dodgers got them 6 and they won the 2nd WC by 2 games, last year they got them 15 more times and the Braves got them 6 times and lost by 1 game.
And this year the Reds got them 15 times. Does that discredit the 97 win season in your mind? For some reason I doubt it.


Then after that you have the Royals factor, The Cards get them 6 times every year and they are averaging over 90 losses a year since Interleague play started. in 12, 11 and 06 the Cards won 4 games a year off them and made the playoffs by 2 games, 1 game and 1.5 games.
There's not a whole lot of logic in that math, as it presumes that the wins would all magically turn into losses.


Its not the Cardinals fault they have such a gift schedule but it doesn't mean they aren't the luckiest team out there, because its clear they are if people stop at look at the numbers here. And that's before we even get onto the field for BABIP and then only to flow of the game breaks.
Absolutely they're lucky. Just like the Reds were lucky to have as many games against HOU, CHC and COL as they did. It does not, however, diminish what either team has done.

As for BABIP, there's a couple pretty simple reasons for it being as high as it is, which I'm sure you already know if you have any sort of grasp on statistics.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 07:31 PM
It blows my mind people could even dare to say then not having Strasburg doesn't effect the series.

Nats record 98-64, Nats record when Stephen Strasburg started 19-9, Nats record when Edwin Jackson started 12-19 and then 0-1 in playoffs. Jackson also came back and pitch in game 5 allowing a run.

If the Nats had Strasburg he would have went in game 2, He has a line against of .214/.290/.301/.591 on the road this year so he could have been there to dropped the hammer on the Cards and go up 2-0. By pitching in this game he could have piggybacked with Gio in game 5 meaning when Gio was bad in the 4th Strasburg could been in for the 5-7 then Clippard and Storen in the 8th and 9th if it even went that far. Also by having Strasburg on the road it means Jordan Zimmermann at home where he had lost since May 17th.

Lets also not forget that the 2nd WC made these series 2-3 rather than 2-2-1 so Drew Storen was in his 3rd game in 3 days when that has never even been a factor in the NLDS before.

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Never, I will never give credit to cheaters and whiners.

However, I will agree that I should have said, "mainly" instead of "only" with regards to the Braves game, the Braves played terribly too. I do stand by the fact that they don't make the playoffs without the rule change or beat the Nat's if Strasberg was on the postseason roster.
Where is the cheating stuff coming from?

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 07:39 PM
Where is the cheating stuff coming from?

First , steroids and other PED's. LaRussa is the king of steroids, first with the A's and then with the Cards. He even made sure to bring back Mr. steroids himself as their hitting coach. Mediocre players and players on the decline come over to the Cards and have career years, over and over again. It must be something in the water ;)

Second, Duncan has been accused his entire career of teaching pitchers how to throw scuff balls. Even a former pitcher, Perez in Cleveland talked about it openly to the press. Again, mediocre and declining pitchers come over to the Cards and re-invent their careers.

It's been happening for too long and too often for it to be just coincidence.

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 07:50 PM
First , steroids and other PED's. LaRussa is the king of steroids, first with the A's and then with the Cards. He even made sure to bring back Mr. steroids himself as their hitting coach. Mediocre players and players on the decline come over to the Cards and have career years, over and over again. It must be something in the water ;)
And yet no player has ever tested positive for PED's while on the Cardinals roster. Career years happen all the time, because every player has one.


Second, Duncan has been accused his entire career of teaching pitchers how to throw scuff balls. Even a former pitcher, Perez in Cleveland talked about it openly to the press. Again, mediocre and declining pitchers come over to the Cards and re-invent their careers.

It's been happening for too long and too often for it to be just coincidence.
Never seen the Cards pitchers accused of scuffing balls, which are extremely easy to detect, since all the ump has to do is look at the ball.

For every player that reinvents their career, there's another that completely fails. Duncan is regarded around the league as one of the best in the game and Busch is a pitchers park.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 07:53 PM
This isn't "any other year" and the 2nd WC is now part of the game.

Yes that's lucky for them.

The Braves lost to the Cards by one game last year so they got lucky the rule wasn't there in 2011 avoiding a 1 game playoff. Then Braves come back and beat them 5 of 6 games this year and open a 6 game gap but the new rule sticks them in a one and done situation where one bad fielding game ends a 162 great season.


And this year the Reds got them 15 times. Does that discredit the 97 win season in your mind? For some reason I doubt it..

Yes we were also lucky to get them so much but if you subtract them from our record we still have 87 wins in 147 games for a .592 W% which would still keep us 2nd in the majors. And we would have one less win than the Cards even with their 15 extra games vs Houston.

If you drop the games with Houston for the Cards they have a 77-70 record that's a .524 W% or 13th best of 30 teams and put them behind the Dodgers who had a .531 and .526 without Houston.

So yes it helped them into the playoffs.


There's not a whole lot of logic in that math, as it presumes that the wins would all magically turn into losses.

They play 6 games with the worst team in baseball by a mile since the start of Interleague, the last 3 times they made the NLCS they made the playoffs by 4.5 games total even with the 2nd Wild Cards, those other teams are getting much harder draws.

Look at the Dodgers getting stuck with 6 with the Angels going 2-4, so while they had 6 with a team better than the Cards even with a far much harder schedule. The Cards won 4 with the 90 loss Royals from the weakest division in baseball. The difference here is 2 games and 2 games is the difference in the standings even with the 9 less games the Dodgers got with Houston.

So yes it helped them into the playoffs.

Sodbuster
10-14-2012, 10:29 PM
Hey hero...don't look now but Kosma just got lucky again.

Sodbuster
10-14-2012, 10:31 PM
And there goes Beltran ... All roided up.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 10:37 PM
Hey hero...don't look now but Kosma just got lucky again.

Latest inflated BABIP player for the BABIP kings, now at .388 including the playoffs.

redsrolen
10-14-2012, 10:50 PM
Latest inflated BABIP player for the BABIP kings, now at .388 including the playoffs.

Mr Hometown...please don't answer these low life trolls...Only losers & I mean only losers go to another team's chat room...

What are trolls...people that have no self esteem & try to make you come down to their underground level...Block them or just laugh at them like I do....

And by the way the score is 6-3....oops 6-4

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 10:52 PM
Latest inflated BABIP player for the BABIP kings, now at .388 including the playoffs.

BABIP kings were the Rockies.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 11:00 PM
BABIP kings were the Rockies.

They are by dfault they play in a park that is .347-390-415-375-350 so their BABIP is high due to 4 infielders and 3 outfielders not being enough to cover that much ground. They had a .348 BABIP at home and just .292 on the road, their pitchers have a .343 BABIP at how showing its the just the park inflating it once they started to use the humidor.

Rijo's Ghost
10-14-2012, 11:05 PM
They are by dfault they play in a park that is .347-390-415-375-350 so their BABIP is high due to 4 infielders and 3 outfielders not being enough to cover that much ground. They had a .348 BABIP at home and just .292 on the road, their pitchers have a .343 BABIP at how showing its the just the park inflating it once they started to use the humidor.

And the Cardinals had a .331 BABIP at home also due to having a spacious ballpark. They also had the 3rd highest GB% and GB go for hits at a much higher rate than FB's.

While simple random variation plays a factor, it's not the only factor.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 11:09 PM
Mr Hometown...please don't answer these low life trolls...Only losers & I mean only losers go to another team's chat room...

What are trolls...people that have no self esteem & try to make you come down to their underground level...Block them or just laugh at them like I do....

And by the way the score is 6-3....oops 6-4

They are losers but they make my point about how insecure their fan base really is despite tons of winnings. If Cards lose or aren't playing their life becomes a living hell, so when they win rather than being happy about it they want to attempt to make others equally miserable as theirs so they feel better about themselves.

Cards fans think others are jealous of their team, but the other 29 fan bases hate the Cards because of their fans and how they refuse to admit the level of their luck.

HometownHero
10-14-2012, 11:15 PM
And the Cardinals had a .331 BABIP at home also due to having a spacious ballpark. They also had the 3rd highest GB% and GB go for hits at a much higher rate than FB's.

While simple random variation plays a factor, it's not the only factor.

Its no where as big as Coors field, they actually play in a normal size ballpark. Most of that is Jay's .430 BABIP at home and if you every seen Jay play at home 75% of his hits are swinging bunts or 30 hoppers just past infielders, Kozma kicked in a .524 to boot but that was in limited time.

You know its not a park factor due to the have a .298 BABIP at home for their pitchers which is slightly about league average.

Ironman92
10-14-2012, 11:32 PM
None of you guys are going to sway the other's mind regardless of how good your point is.

cw0802
10-15-2012, 12:51 AM
None of you guys are going to sway the other's mind regardless of how good your point is.

It is hard to sway the mind of someone who believes the only reason the opposition does anything is because of luck.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 01:49 AM
Mr Hometown...please don't answer these low life trolls...Only losers & I mean only losers go to another team's chat room...

What are trolls...people that have no self esteem & try to make you come down to their underground level...Block them or just laugh at them like I do....

And by the way the score is 6-3....oops 6-4

If you don't want cardinal fans on your site don't constantly talk shi! about them. Seriously take a look at the number of threads on here that either start out as trashing the redbirds or quickly move that direction. It is a startling number.

Also, just because a some people who played for the cardinals used PEDs doesn't mean the whole team is using them. Using your logic i can conclude that every reds player bets on baseball. maybe your reds threw the 3 games to the giants.

Do you see how ridiculous that is?

HometownHero
10-15-2012, 01:53 AM
Cards fans always talk about the Reds but we don't flock to your boards, the other night we had well over 100 guests trolling here about 10% of them signed up at it just magically happened to be the day after we got knocked out and the Cards advanced, odd.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 02:12 AM
Every fan bases has jackasses and im sorry the cardinal a holes trolling your boards. I have seen it and called them out on it too. You just give them credence by responding to them. Also seeing how much you post about stats i can tell you are a big sabre metrics guy. Sabre metrics can get you into the playoffs but it doesn't win championships. What wins World series is people stepping up when there name is called and thats what the cardinals have been doing.

The reason the nats lost is because Davey Johnson let Storen, who had pitched the two previous days, walk the bases loaded and still left him in.

Finally, just be careful how you generalize a city with 3 million people. On other threads on here reds fans chastise the cardinals for having a huge pay roll. Which they do, if i remember correctly its the 9th largest. St. Louis is the 22nd largest media market in the country. The only reason they can spend that kind of money is because every single person in the greater st louis area bleeds cardinals red. The greater cinci area is not that much smaller than st louis's, yet your amazing reds fans were 16th! this year in attendance when you were, in my opinion, hands down the best team in baseball. Fenway park only holds 35,000 people and the redsox finished 30 games below .500 yet they still finished 6 places ahead of the reds in attendance when the reds stadium holds 45,000 people and the reds finshed the season over 20 games above .500

JayStubbs
10-15-2012, 02:45 AM
Every fan bases has jackasses and im sorry the cardinal a holes trolling your boards. I have seen it and called them out on it too. You just give them credence by responding to them. Also seeing how much you post about stats i can tell you are a big sabre metrics guy. Sabre metrics can get you into the playoffs but it doesn't win championships. What wins World series is people stepping up when there name is called and thats what the cardinals have been doing.

The reason the nats lost is because Davey Johnson let Storen, who had pitched the two previous days, walk the bases loaded and still left him in.

Finally, just be careful how you generalize a city with 3 million people. On other threads on here reds fans chastise the cardinals for having a huge pay roll. Which they do, if i remember correctly its the 9th largest. St. Louis is the 22nd largest media market in the country. The only reason they can spend that kind of money is because every single person in the greater st louis area bleeds cardinals red. The greater cinci area is not that much smaller than st louis's, yet your amazing reds fans were 16th! this year in attendance when you were, in my opinion, hands down the best team in baseball. Fenway park only holds 35,000 people and the redsox finished 30 games below .500 yet they still finished 6 places ahead of the reds in attendance when the reds stadium holds 45,000 people and the reds finshed the season over 20 games above .500

Nice post, but one big correction.

St. Louis has always had a much bigger market than Cincinnati. It's because there really were no other MLB teams west of the Mississippi for so long, and because of the strength of KMOX, which reaches dozens of states. There are Cardinal fans all over the Midwest, in states like Kansas, Wyoming, Idaho, Iowa, Montana, etc. The Cardinals were the Yankees of the NL for quite awhile. The Cardinal nation is huge.

According to this site, Cards are 21st biggest media market and Cincinnati is 35th.

http://www.sportstvjobs.com/resources/local-tv-market-sizes-dma.html

And the Saint Louis metroplolitan arena is much bigger than Cincinnati's, it's around 1 million people bigger, around 3M to 2M.

Their market is bigger, their fan base is bigger and the number of people driving distance of them is bigger.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 02:53 AM
While you are right about the cardinals fan base being very large in area and population you have under evaluated the size of your fan base. One cannot forget that louisville only an hour and a half from cinci which basically makes them twin cities and and if you count louisville the cincy louisville metro area is around 4 million. You also split indianapolis with the cubs and columbus with the indians. The only other city of size that are cards fans is memphis. Because of the rockies the cards no longer control the mountain and west and because of the braves moving to atlants they lost much of the south too.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 02:55 AM
and i need to start spell checking my posts. Ohio is a massivley populated state. just because cincy itself isn't that big doesn't mean their arent enough fans to draw nightly for louisville, dayton, columbus, and indy

JayStubbs
10-15-2012, 03:11 AM
While you are right about the cardinals fan base being very large in area and population you have under evaluated the size of your fan base. One cannot forget that louisville only an hour and a half from cinci which basically makes them twin cities and and if you count louisville the cincy louisville metro area is around 4 million. You also split indianapolis with the cubs and columbus with the indians. The only other city of size that are cards fans is memphis. Because of the rockies the cards no longer control the mountain and west and because of the braves moving to atlants they lost much of the south too.

If you start adding cities over an hour drive away, you would drive up St. Louis' number as well. Not so many big cities like Louisville, but plenty of small towns that add millions overall.

I will admit that St. Louis is more of a baseball town than Cincinnati, always has been. But it's always been bigger as well.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 03:23 AM
perhaps reds and cardinal fans differ there. Because i live two hours from st louis and drive to cardinal games on week nights frequently and so do so many others. Also, i think that since the reds had that really bad down period for almost twenty years they may have lost those fans that drive from those cities. but if they keep playing like they did in '10 and '12 they will come back. Additionally, for the sake of the NL central the reds need to stay strong. Though houston has been down recently i think losing them from the division makes the NL central less competitive. We should have let the AL have pittsburgh jkjk

HometownHero
10-15-2012, 03:46 AM
You just answered why the Cards have more fans at games, back before TV was big people listen to the games on KMOX and the build a massive regional fan following. With gas prices and economy and the growing amount of TV programming and internet that massive fan base is going to slowly die out.

This map is a good gauge on how the Cards fanbase is more than the St Louis market.
http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/mlb_640.gif

This is almost exclusively due to old school radio listen habits programing a couple generations, as the Rams and Blues have major attendance issues unless the team is playing great.

dubc47834
10-15-2012, 09:33 AM
Never, I will never give credit to cheaters and whiners.

However, I will agree that I should have said, "mainly" instead of "only" with regards to the Braves game, the Braves played terribly too. I do stand by the fact that they don't make the playoffs without the rule change or beat the Nat's if Strasberg was on the postseason roster.

I will give you they only made it because of the new playoff format, but it is what it is now and we must live by it. I also will give you that not having Strasburg had an effect on that series, but I think it's wrong to say that it was the reason they Nats lost. This woulda been his 1st postseason appearance and you never know. I guess we will have to agree to disagree tho man.

Not saying you are, but I think many on here are using their hatred of the Cardinals as a coping mechanism for what happened with our Reds. I understand it!!!

bounty37h
10-15-2012, 10:37 AM
What exactly is a Red?

I am guessing a good answer is someone who is a fan of their own favorite team and isn't such a poor sport they troll other teams sites when their team is still playing? I would say you are an embarrassment to real Cardinals fans but it seems many of you troll, so maybe the “good” fans are embarrassment’s to you trolls?

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 01:41 PM
You just answered why the Cards have more fans at games, back before TV was big people listen to the games on KMOX and the build a massive regional fan following. With gas prices and economy and the growing amount of TV programming and internet that massive fan base is going to slowly die out.

This map is a good gauge on how the Cards fanbase is more than the St Louis market.
http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/mlb_640.gif

This is almost exclusively due to old school radio listen habits programing a couple generations, as the Rams and Blues have major attendance issues unless the team is playing great.

But look at that map. I love missouri, but sadly i live in communist red illinois, and youre right it is the meth capital of the world. Look at the map your just showed me. The entire thing except for st. louis is completely rural wit the exceptions being Memphis and little rock. Unfortunately both those cities are too far away for fans to come just for one night. the only time people come from those towns is for a weekend series so they aren't a constant draw like louisville, dayton, indy, and columbus can be

BurgervilleBuck
10-15-2012, 03:10 PM
Just saw Mike Matheny on MLB & it hit me like a ton of bricks!!! Did you witness their dugout?? I sure did & we don't have one bit of it.....I saw Carpenter, Schumaker & later Wainwright when he was out of the lineup with nonstop cheering, greeting each player, back slaps...you know the whole bit...
Matheny said he'd never seen anything like it....It was like a HS football locker room...He said instead of Wainwright hanging his head he was up cheering like crazy...He said they have a never say die attitude....I know what your thinking, we make alot of comebacks...sure we do...to what teams?? great teams?? Sure some, if someone strings some hits together...Our M.O. is sit by yourself or next to one guy & everyone just hopes...no chatter at all....Sure I believe Frazier will be great for this but we need a couple more....This to me is the answer....Winners don't know how to lose....

I don't know if that's it as much as approach, that you're not going to lose (which is the same as "Never Say Die").

Personally, I think the Reds' failure has been in not being able to produce at the plate. But that's just me.;)

redsrolen
10-15-2012, 05:17 PM
I don't know if that's it as much as approach, that you're not going to lose (which is the same as "Never Say Die").

Personally, I think the Reds' failure has been in not being able to produce at the plate. But that's just me.;)

I agree...not being able to produce at the plate...part of that is not walking up to the plate with full confidence in the post season, you do have to believe don't you?...however, being one of the worst hitting teams in BB in Sept...what did we expect in the Playoffs...I also put a decent amount of blame on our hitting coach....Not pulling Leake & Latos...huge...

aredbirdfan
10-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Luck is what the Cardinals have that the Reds don't.


Ever hear of a guy name of Pete Rose? He talked about luck. How the guys who work the hardest are always the lucky ones.

And why don't you Reds fans find a rival you can compete with? As a Cardinal fan, I consider our closest rivals to be LA and SF. They have the 2nd and 3rd most World Series wins.

If you pick up a few more ex-Cardinals, it might help you out. Live on the crumbs we drop. Maybe you can sign Lohse in the off season. We have soooo many pitchers, we just can't find room for him any longer.

There is a link on the Cards Forum to the crying fans of this forum. Everybody is getting a laugh from you guys.

Keep cryin' about the Cardinals.

Salukifan2
10-15-2012, 08:22 PM
Ever hear of a guy name of Pete Rose? He talked about luck. How the guys who work the hardest are always the lucky ones.

And why don't you Reds fans find a rival you can compete with? As a Cardinal fan, I consider our closest rivals to be LA and SF. They have the 2nd and 3rd most World Series wins.

If you pick up a few more ex-Cardinals, it might help you out. Live on the crumbs we drop. Maybe you can sign Lohse in the off season. We have soooo many pitchers, we just can't find room for him any longer.

There is a link on the Cards Forum to the crying fans of this forum. Everybody is getting a laugh from you guys.

Keep cryin' about the Cardinals.

Thats weak bro. if you want to just com and laugh then do it but you don't need to post. I certainly find many of the opinions on here to be sometimes very outrageous but you don't need to just stir stuff up with posts like that.