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View Full Version : Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?



RedTruck
10-13-2012, 11:43 PM
I'm sort of envious.

Cincinnati is, what it is. But why hasn't it grown to become a major city? We have so many big companies here, why hasn't the core grown? I love cincinnati, but at the same time I realize that the core is 75% composed of african americans/low income families, and 25% middle, to high income families.

I just love cincinnati, and I love the reds. But I always hoped during the 70's of the era of the BRM that Cincinnati would one day become a sister to Chicago, and expand in size and scope. Instead it feels we make minimal progress decade by decade.

I just look at the Reds, and there week day 20K fans, and realize it's mainly due to most of the reds fans living in the suburbs and outside bordering states and middle ohio. If cincinnati grew, the core would follow. The stadium would be packed every night.

I still love cincinnati, and accept it for what it is. But sometimes I close my eyes and envision how it would be if it was similar to chicago in scope and size. How lively the city would be, how lively the stadium would be on a nightly basis regardless of the month.

We're making solid progress with the banks, and hopefully that's a sign of things to come..hopefully...

1940757690
10-14-2012, 12:52 AM
Gosh. Huge question with lots of answers but maybe not so different from what you see in most of the other non-Chicago midwest cities. Hoping with you. I'm not from Cincinnati but as someone who's been a diehard Reds fan for more than 30 years, I'd love to see the city grow.

ProfessorTofty
10-14-2012, 12:56 AM
Perhaps it's a problem of promotion in part? I live in Dayton, and I hardly hear anything about Cincinnati here, other than the Reds, and maybe stuff about casinos. If there's exciting stuff going on in Cincinnati, we need to be hearing more about it here.

Mastodon
10-14-2012, 02:38 AM
The city used to be almost twice the size in population at one point. The midwest in general seems to be hemorrhaging population. People for whatever reason want to move southwest. I guess people are just turning into wimps when it comes to the weather or something?

MrRedLegger
10-14-2012, 02:49 AM
I would not change anything about Cincinnati ever. The team wears the C and not an R. Sports make you sick but my goodness I LOVE being a Cincinnati man and fan.

I know I joined in May but I feel like I am part of something special. When I am at GABP and when I log in.

RedTruck
10-14-2012, 02:56 AM
Perhaps it's a problem of promotion in part? I live in Dayton, and I hardly hear anything about Cincinnati here, other than the Reds, and maybe stuff about casinos. If there's exciting stuff going on in Cincinnati, we need to be hearing more about it here.

Well I can't really imagine what would fit the bill in that regard. As someone who lives in the suburbs, I mainly go to downtown for the Reds/Bengals game, the Cincinnati Zoo, and the Museum.

When I look at big cities like Chicago, or NYC, the main reason why people visit during the weekends is to go shopping on Michigan Avenue. I think that's were Cincinnati needs to develop itself more. To be more people friendly, to invest in more shopping plaza's and stores.

Because right now, the perception about Cincinnati is that it's filled with dangerous black people, and that there really only a few "safe" area's to walk around. Which is, somewhat true I guess.

RedTruck
10-14-2012, 02:58 AM
I would not change anything about Cincinnati ever. The team wears the C and not an R. Sports make you sick but my goodness I LOVE being a Cincinnati man and fan.

I know I joined in May but I feel like I am part of something special. When I am at GABP and when I log in.


Yet, only 20% of it's fans actually live in the cincinnati metro.

Honestly, the Reds should be renamed to the "OHIO" Reds. That's a better fitting name, considering most of it's fans are compiled from outliers like Middle Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Tenn, Virginia, etc.

ProfessorTofty
10-14-2012, 03:53 AM
Well I can't really imagine what would fit the bill in that regard. As someone who lives in the suburbs, I mainly go to downtown for the Reds/Bengals game, the Cincinnati Zoo, and the Museum.

When I look at big cities like Chicago, or NYC, the main reason why people visit during the weekends is to go shopping on Michigan Avenue. I think that's were Cincinnati needs to develop itself more. To be more people friendly, to invest in more shopping plaza's and stores.

Because right now, the perception about Cincinnati is that it's filled with dangerous black people, and that there really only a few "safe" area's to walk around. Which is, somewhat true I guess.
Really? Wow, that's a bit sad. Dayton, Ohio used to have a similar problem with its downtown, but we've been working hard and it's a lot safer these days. It's actually pretty exciting - a lot of people actually live there now with new options in green housing and it's home to not only the Reds Dayton Dragons farm team, but also has a large theatre that hosts popular plays such as "Wicked," and if an upcoming ballot issue passes will have a completely renovated and modernized public library.

cooperlamar
10-14-2012, 07:52 AM
Cincinnati is a great city and has undergone an amazing change in the last 5-10 years and has had more positive changes than any other city its size in my opinion. With the Banks, the renovation of Fountain Square, the Gateway Quarter, Washington Park, lots of new office space, and soon the casino and the street car, those that avoid it are just missing out - plain and simple. I used to try and convince people to go downtown to see what it offers. I don't do that any more - if you don't go downtown now and experience it yourself, you're missing out as well as closed minded in my opinion.

osuredleg24
10-14-2012, 10:14 AM
Im guessing because for the past few years, it has been in the top 4 in poorest cities in America

FlyingPig
10-14-2012, 11:38 AM
I live in Charlotte and believe me, there's no comparision at all between the two cities.

My wife and I made two trips to Cincinnati this summer. Of course, baseball was the main reason for the visits, but there are so many other things we love about your city. We stay in Newport and find things to do there. We visited the aquarium, the zoo, the museums, the Hall of Fame. I enjoyed morning runs along the river. We always try a different restaurant when we come to town.

Compare that to Charlotte. There is no nightlife in Charlotte. There are no museums, other than a sad little NASCAR museum. There is no river. The shopping is all on the outskirts along the interstates. There is a AAA baseball team that no one cares about. There is a bad NBA team that no one supports. Panther football is as bad as Bengal football.

I ran the Flying Pig Marathon. I also ran the New York City Marathon. The support that we received along the streets of Cincinnati, for a city that size, was comparable to NYC. Cincinnati doesnt have 3 million people to line the streets, but the turnout was amazing. They heightened the experience.

I'm in my fifties. I've been visiting Cincinnati since I was a West Virginia kid. I tell people at my job that Cincinnati is my favorite city to visit, and that it is one of the most under rated cities in America.

I can see people from Charlotte visiting your city for many reasons. I really can't see people from Cincinnati visiting Charlotte for any reason other than NASCAR. And even that is on the outskirts.

Cincinnati is a great city. :thumbup:

cooperlamar
10-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Cincinnati will never become a major city for 2 primary reasons:

1 Not enough jobs. Yes, we have P&G and a number of other Fortune 500 companies, but nowhere near the number a major city has. Unless somewhere here starts the next Google or Starbucks for example it just isn't happening.

2 Public transportation. In order to become a major city, you need accessible public transportation. If the city had completed the subway it started ~90 years ago or so, I think it would be much more similar to Atlanta.

That's okay - Perhaps I'm biased but I think we're better than most other cities in the region. I think Cincinnati has more to offer than St Louis or Indianapolis or Louisville or Detroit, etc. Outside of Chicago we're the nicest city in the Midwest.

Phoenix2
10-14-2012, 04:57 PM
Cincinnati will never become a major city for 2 primary reasons:

1 Not enough jobs. Yes, we have P&G and a number of other Fortune 500 companies, but nowhere near the number a major city has. Unless somewhere here starts the next Google or Starbucks for example it just isn't happening.

2 Public transportation. In order to become a major city, you need accessible public transportation. If the city had completed the subway it started ~90 years ago or so, I think it would be much more similar to Atlanta.

That's okay - Perhaps I'm biased but I think we're better than most other cities in the region. I think Cincinnati has more to offer than St Louis or Indianapolis or Louisville or Detroit, etc. Outside of Chicago we're the nicest city in the Midwest.

#1 is true; #2 is not. I live in Phoenix where we have grown exponentially the previous two decades while totally reliant on the car culture. Same for many cities.

nate1213
10-14-2012, 05:33 PM
I'm pretty sure I read an article a couple years ago that by the 2020 census you could expect to see Cincinnati limits all the way to Dayton.

nate1213
10-14-2012, 05:44 PM
< http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100207/EDIT03/2070327?nclick_check=1>

Says if this happens, which should be in 2013, would become like a Dallas-Fort Worth area, so Cincinnati-Dayton. Cincinnati would become the 15th largest city in America with just a little over 3 million people.

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 05:46 PM
Cincinnati is one of the most conservative, close minded cities in the mid-west. Throughout history, conservative cities either become less conservative, and adjust to the changing times, or they remain small and small minded.

I think the fact that Cincinnatians are afraid of "dangerous black people" says it all.

MrRedLegger
10-14-2012, 05:54 PM
Cincinnati is a major city there's no doubt. I think the OP was trying to touch on the size of the fan base and home game attendance.

Before Delta collapsed, CVG Airport was THE midwest hub for air travel. P&G, GE, Great American, Duke Energy, just to name a few big companies with plenty of jobs. The cities compared to above have much bigger factory/plant/blue collar work. (No jabs intended, nothing is wrong with how you make an honest living) Cincinnati attracts a lot of business and commerce, but because shipping things down the river is not the #1 mode of doing things any more, commerce is going to take some kind of hit.

Consider geographics. Cleveland attracts pretty much all of Ohio fan bases minus Cincinnati through the south side of Columbus. Indianapolis is only 2 hours away, and although there is a big chunk of the fan base there I'd say thar Indiana's fan market also shares with one of Chicago's two teams, Milwaukee, and/or Detroit. To the east you have Pennsylvania which is home to 2 professional traditioin-rich ballclubs in cities with huge populations. Kentucky supports the Reds (and Louisville bats) but we all know that Cats Basketball is the blood type of 95% of Kentuckians.

For what it is, I think Cincinnati is thriving as a city and is doing very well as a fan market for their sports. The Cyclones have won the Kelly Cup twice in the last 4 years and their games are GREAT to go watch. UC football has had success despite Brian Kelly's antics. The crosstown shootout is as fired up as it could be.

Look for Reds attendance to go up yet again next year. No one is looking more forward to opening day than Reds Nation.

Besides, in case you didn't know, Lonely Planet Travel Guide ranked Cincinnati USA as a top 3 travel destination. So let's go! "Book your stay at Cincinnati USA dot commmmm!!"

you all just sang that song in your head when you read it. :laugh:

nate1213
10-14-2012, 06:41 PM
Cincinnati is one of the most conservative, close minded cities in the mid-west. Throughout history, conservative cities either become less conservative, and adjust to the changing times, or they remain small and small minded.

I think the fact that Cincinnatians are afraid of "dangerous black people" says it all.

If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.

RedTruck
10-14-2012, 06:45 PM
If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.

It was funny. When I was in toronto, I could walk anywhere. Even the projects, were safe to be in. Instead of just blacks, you would see asians, latino's, whites, indians, blacks, all under one block, one street. It was really awesome to see.

I feel that if Cincinnati mixed it's housing development with rich condo's in poor area's than that somehow would create a better mesh, and create a more safer feeling overall.

Mutaman
10-14-2012, 06:53 PM
If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.

"or they remain small and small minded.

I think the fact that Cincinnatians are afraid of "dangerous black people" says it all."

EXHIBIT ONE!

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 06:54 PM
It was funny. When I was in toronto, I could walk anywhere. Even the projects, were safe to be in. Instead of just blacks, you would see asians, latino's, whites, indians, blacks, all under one block, one street. It was really awesome to see.

I feel that if Cincinnati mixed it's housing development with rich condo's in poor area's than that somehow would create a better mesh, and create a more safer feeling overall.

Toronto is a great city, and very diverse and open minded. I think you nailed it with Cincinnati's lack of diversity. It's one of the most segregated cities I have ever been in. Getting people of diverse ethnicity to love together in the same areas would be a huge first step towards growing the city.

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 06:55 PM
If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.

The fact that the suspects are black should be irrelevant.

Phoenix2
10-14-2012, 09:11 PM
The fact that the suspects are black should be irrelevant.

Jay, you were the one who chose to start talking about race in post #16 of this thread.

JayStubbs
10-14-2012, 09:21 PM
Jay, you were the one who chose to start talking about race in post #16 of this thread.

Actually, the original poster started talking about race.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about race, in fact I think the biggest problem is that we don't talk about it enough. However, we can discuss the crime rate in certain parts of the city without bringing race into it. Race actually muddies the picture, imo. I don't see the contradiction.

RedTruck
10-14-2012, 10:33 PM
Toronto is a great city, and very diverse and open minded. I think you nailed it with Cincinnati's lack of diversity. It's one of the most segregated cities I have ever been in. Getting people of diverse ethnicity to love together in the same areas would be a huge first step towards growing the city.


Yeah. My long term plan is to move to Toronto. It's such a beautiful city. They have quite a variant in public transportation (though there street car, and subway need refurbishing), and I just love how so many people ride there bicicyles around the city. From the elderly, to the young, to buisness men and women. It's awesome to see.

An it felt so healthy to be there. The air, just felt, different. And the people were so, so nice and always so respectful. Even the homeless people were always friendly and respectful as well. Was such a change from the homeless people here or in chicago where there so AGGRESSIVE when they ask for money (at least in my encounters).

An the diversity is so beautiful to watch. Blacks, whites, asians, latinos, indians, native canadians, native americans and so on. If you just visited toronto for a day and you didn't know it was in canada you wouldn't be able to tell what country it was because of how diverse the population was.

Such a great, great city.

That's what cincinnati needs more of definitely. An this is not meant to be racist, because i'm black myself, but it just feels there's this big racial divide.

Don't go to over the rhine-that's where the black thugs live.

Don't go there-that's where black homeless people rome

Don't go there-tons of black people live there

SO MANY TIMES I HEARD THIS WHILE WALKING AT THE BANKS. SO MANY DAMN TIMES.

I feel there's a wall of perception of the people who live in the suburbs and the downtown area and i'm tired of it.

RedTruck
10-14-2012, 11:09 PM
The fact that the suspects are black should be irrelevant.

People enjoy generalizing. We see crimes generally attributed to blacks in the downtown area so we naturally become afraid, and assume any crime is due to a black person.

Sort of sad.

RedTruck
10-15-2012, 01:14 AM
How did Cincinnati come to be known as the Queen City?
During the first forty years after its founding, Cincinnati experienced spectacular growth. By 1820, citizens, extremely proud of their city, were referring to it as The Queen City or The Queen of the West. On May 4, 1819, B. Cooke wrote in the Inquisitor and Cincinnati Advertiser, "The City is, indeed, justly styled the fair Queen of the West: distinquished for order, enterprise, public spirit, and liberality, she stands the wonder of an admiring world." In 1854, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote his poem, Catawba Wine, to memorialize the city's vineyards, especially those of Nicholas Longworth. The last stanza of the poem reads:

"And this Song of the Vine,
This greeting of mine,
The winds and the birds shall deliver,
To the Queen of the West,
In her garlands dressed,
On the banks of the Beautiful River."

Seems like Cincinnati needs to find it's inner lost "Queen City"

Bob Sheed
10-15-2012, 11:00 AM
I guess the UC Crime Reports must be racist... :rolleyes:

Mutaman
10-15-2012, 11:43 AM
I guess the UC Crime Reports must be racist... :rolleyes:

Link please. Lets see them for ourselves.

Bob Sheed
10-15-2012, 12:36 PM
Link please. Lets see them for ourselves.

It's called, UC crime reports delivered to my email for roughly 5 years.

Believe what you want. Anyone else who gets these reports knows what I am talking about.

I'd say 9 out of every 10 perp was of a certain minority that no one is allowed to identify anymore. And that's being generous.

So again, I guess those crime reports must be racist.

There is a BIG problem in Cincinnati, always has been. And sweeping it under the rug with denial like yours does nothing to address it.

RedTruck
10-15-2012, 02:12 PM
It's called, UC crime reports delivered to my email for roughly 5 years.

Believe what you want. Anyone else who gets these reports knows what I am talking about.

I'd say 9 out of every 10 perp was of a certain minority that no one is allowed to identify anymore. And that's being generous.

So again, I guess those crime reports must be racist.

There is a BIG problem in Cincinnati, always has been. And sweeping it under the rug with denial like yours does nothing to address it.

Cincinnati has been classified as a racist city for quite some time now. Just how it is.

cooperlamar
10-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Cincinnati has been classified as a racist city for quite some time now. Just how it is.

Sure - by those that are ignorant. In reality, it isn't at all and I've lived and worked in this city for over 10 years. It certainly isn't any more racist than any other city. Cincinnati elected a mayor, vice mayor and multiple city council members that are African-American. Its police chief is AA. Washington Park reopened this summer and I've been there multiple times - it is in one of the worst areas in town yet it is filled with people of all ages and races with no problems. Someone mentioned they need to build wealthy condos in poor neighborhoods - they're doing that as well just a block away.

Cincinnati has its share of problems like all large cities but to label it as racist without any proof, especially on a message board dedicated towards its oldest sports team is ridiculous and foolish in my opinion.

BurgervilleBuck
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Because right now, the perception about Cincinnati is that it's filled with dangerous black people, and that there really only a few "safe" area's to walk around. Which is, somewhat true I guess.

It's astounding that facts in no way play a part in that argument.

BurgervilleBuck
10-15-2012, 02:44 PM
If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.
If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: don't exaggerate.

Rock of Truth
10-15-2012, 02:53 PM
I feel the reason the "City" of Cincinnati has not grown is due to the disfunctional City Council. Throw in a Mayor who spends more town out of town than in it and you have a recipe for disaster. When you also consider that City officials only control half of what goes on, while the other half is determined by Hamilton County who the City officials don't like.

Over the Rhine may have turned the corner, the Banks is up and running, there are finally some reasons to be downtown and they bicker about a Streetcar that goes up a hill and comes right back down again.

Captain13
10-15-2012, 02:56 PM
Does that mean Middletown could become the new Arlington? That is where The Ballpark is, and Cowboy Stadium, and the entertainment district. Maybe Butler County needs to start making hay on this new Cin-Day region.

Mutaman
10-15-2012, 03:25 PM
It's called, UC crime reports delivered to my email for roughly 5 years.


Very convincing evidence. :thumbdown:

redsrolen
10-15-2012, 05:02 PM
I grew up in Richmond In, right on the Ohio boarder...We had Dayton & Cincy TV & spent alot of our mini vacations going to 'Crosley Field', 'Coney Island' & the 'Zoo'....I love the charm of the city on the waterfront!!
I wanted to relive some of those memories this summer & went to 'Coney' & the 'Zoo' & had a great night out...I've been in Indy for the last 22 yrs & love it but Cincy has a big piece of my heart & always will!!;)

Bob Sheed
10-15-2012, 05:16 PM
Very convincing evidence. :thumbdown:

Do your own research.

Or keep your head buried in the sand.

Doesn't matter to me either way.



I lived in Clifton for 15 years, and worked for UC for 5 years. I got the crime report from Greg Hand in my email every week. Plenty of first-hand experiences too.

That's MY evidence. I know exactly what the deal is, in Clifton. And I would NEVER send my kids there. Never. I don't care how good DAAP, Medical, Law, and CCM is. There are colleges out there just as good, that you don't have to risk getting robbed to and from campus.

"I have kids who go to UC and they have never been assaulted."

Mmm-hmm... Wait.

Believe what you want though. Maybe the choo-choo from Downtown up the hill will help? :laugh:

Bob Sheed
10-15-2012, 05:26 PM
If you went to UC you would understand. I get about 50 emails a week from UC saying that people have been raped, held at gun point, stabbed, with an unidentified black male fleeing the scene. And that's just a couple miles off of UC's campus that they give updates to. Cincinnati has some very, very bad spots to be in. It's still not very safe down there.

Big exaggeration.

More like 4 or 5 a week, at least when I was there.

Which is still crazy.

jhiller21
10-15-2012, 08:40 PM
I live in a predominately black neighborhood (Golf Manor), right next to one of the poorest areas in the city (Roselawn), and I love living here.

My neighbors are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet, and I never lock my doors. But most of the well-off white people who lived in the city limits at one point have moved out to the suburbs because of the "scary black people".

Downtown is coming back in a big way, and I always encourage my friends to get down to places like Findlay Market, the Banks, and Fountain Square. Most of them live in Anderson Township and do their shopping at Super Kroger or Meijer, and spend their leisure time at the local malls and movie theaters.

White culture in the Midwest is moving away from the bigger cities, and spending all their time not "worrying" about the scary black folks in their comfy suburban communities.

BurgervilleBuck
10-15-2012, 11:42 PM
I lived in Clifton for 15 years, and worked for UC for 5 years. I got the crime report from Greg Hand in my email every week. Plenty of first-hand experiences too.

That's MY evidence. I know exactly what the deal is, in Clifton. And I would NEVER send my kids there. Never. I don't care how good DAAP, Medical, Law, and CCM is. There are colleges out there just as good, that you don't have to risk getting robbed to and from campus.

I agree. My gods, every day at UC is like an episode out of The Wire. Kids on every corner ripping and rapping and being rabble rousers and ne'er do wells. O, and the scamps.

Please, don't even mention the scamps.

1940757690
10-16-2012, 01:03 AM
This thread sure took some new turns since I last checked in 24 or so hours ago.

I still think the OP's original question isn't easily answered with simple responses like race, crime or a dysfunctional city council.

I'd venture to say Washington, DC is more divided along racial lines, has more of a violent legacy and no way can Cincinnati's City Council hold a candle to the level we've achieved here with some city councilmembers (including the former chairman) forced to resign or in prison while others are still under investigation along with our mayor. All the while, one of the city councilmen still comfortably serving is no other than Marion Barry. None of those factors have limited the city's growth and the Nationals and RGIII have been big boosts. Of course, there's the obvious unique element of being the national capitol.

I think the slow growth is likely due to factors not so different from many of the other midwestern cities including geographic location, economy, urban planning, and demographics.

foxfire123
10-16-2012, 01:14 AM
Hubby and I have spent several weekends in Cincinnati over the years, including being in Cinci just a month or so after the big riots in 2001. I've never been afraid to walk around Cincinnati. We always stay on the Covington side, and usually walk to the ballpark from there, or take the shuttle to downtown and then walk to the ballpark. We've walked back to our hotel after night games before. Granted, it's usually with a few other couples that we've met at the game and begun chatting with on the way back to the hotel, but again, I've never felt nervous or frightened.

We love Cinci, and wouldn't hesitate to live in the area.

Bob Sheed
10-16-2012, 08:15 AM
I agree. My gods, every day at UC is like an episode out of The Wire. Kids on every corner ripping and rapping and being rabble rousers and ne'er do wells. O, and the scamps.

Please, don't even mention the scamps.

More like Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Cincinnati is a few decades behind.

:laugh:

JayStubbs
10-16-2012, 08:31 AM
It's called, UC crime reports delivered to my email for roughly 5 years.

Believe what you want. Anyone else who gets these reports knows what I am talking about.

I'd say 9 out of every 10 perp was of a certain minority that no one is allowed to identify anymore. And that's being generous.

So again, I guess those crime reports must be racist.

There is a BIG problem in Cincinnati, always has been. And sweeping it under the rug with denial like yours does nothing to address it.

You are completely missing the point.

Of course the police reports need to identify the suspects of all crimes, and if the suspects are black, that needs to be reported. Nothing I said contradicts that.

However, when discussing crime in any area, there is no need to bring up race. None. Crimes mostly occur in poor areas, it's a class issue. If most the poor are black, then most of the crimes will be committed by blacks. Just as like in the past when most of the poor was Irish, or Italian, or Jewish, or whatever.

Making a race an issue insinuates that black people by nature are more likely to be criminals, which is blantantly false and racist, as well as ignorant.

The area around UC has been poor for quite some time, and that will always attract crime. That is a big problem and should be addressed. The race of the suspected criminals does not need to be addressed as it is irrelevant.

JayStubbs
10-16-2012, 08:37 AM
Cincinnati has been classified as a racist city for quite some time now. Just how it is.

Someone wanted evidence, lol


I agree. My gods, every day at UC is like an episode out of The Wire. Kids on every corner ripping and rapping and being rabble rousers and ne'er do wells. O, and the scamps.

Please, don't even mention the scamps.


More like Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Cincinnati is a few decades behind.

:laugh:

dubc47834
10-16-2012, 09:04 AM
You are completely missing the point.

Of course the police reports need to identify the suspects of all crimes, and if the suspects are black, that needs to be reported. Nothing I said contradicts that.

However, when discussing crime in any area, there is no need to bring up race. None. Crimes mostly occur in poor areas, it's a class issue. If most the poor are black, then most of the crimes will be committed by blacks. Just as like in the past when most of the poor was Irish, or Italian, or Jewish, or whatever.

Making a race an issue insinuates that black people by nature are more likely to be criminals, which is blantantly false and racist, as well as ignorant.

The area around UC has been poor for quite some time, and that will always attract crime. That is a big problem and should be addressed. The race of the suspected criminals does not need to be addressed as it is irrelevant.

Inteligent post!!!

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 11:28 AM
Lets sum up:

1. Bob Sheed refers to some mysterious "UC Crime Reports" which supposedly show something about race and crime in Cincinnati. (Post #28)

2. I request that Bob link to these "UC Crime Reports" so we can see them for ourselves. (Post 29)

3. Bob responds that "It's called, UC crime reports delivered to my email for roughly 5 years" (sic) and accuses me of "denial". (Post # 30)

4. Not having access to Bob's 5 years of emails, I tell Bob that this is not exactly convincing evidence. (Post # 37).

5. Bob tells me to "Do your own research. Or keep your head buried in the sand." (#39)


2 + 2 = 5. And if you question this, do your own research and prove me wrong. Cause I got these emails.

BurgervilleBuck
10-16-2012, 11:46 AM
Sorry, Bob.

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20121016/BIZ/310160021/Downtown-s-up-public-s-eyes?odyssey=nav%7Chead


Two-thirds of the adults in the Cincinnati region believe Downtown is a safe place to visit or work.

Bummer.:p

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 12:27 PM
Sorry, Bob.

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20121016/BIZ/310160021/Downtown-s-up-public-s-eyes?odyssey=nav%7Chead
Bummer.:p

I resent someone coming on here and supporting their opinion with evidence. I have half a mind to report this. :)

Bob Sheed
10-16-2012, 01:59 PM
Lets sum up:

1. Bob Sheed refers to some mysterious "UC Crime Reports" which supposedly show something about race and crime in Cincinnati. (Post #28)


"Mysterious?"

Maybe to you.

It's a crime report that was sent to every UC employee. So, no, I don't have a link to emails sent to me years ago.

Wow, how mysterious. :rolleyes:

Look, if you want to continue in ignorance of the situation in Clifton, that's fine. The next time a student gets clubbed in the back of their head walking back from class, ask them to "send you a link or it didn't happen."

dubc47834
10-16-2012, 02:08 PM
"Mysterious?"

Maybe to you.

It's a crime report that was sent to every UC employee. So, no, I don't have a link to emails sent to me years ago.

Wow, how mysterious. :rolleyes:

Look, if you want to continue in ignorance of the situation in Clifton, that's fine. The next time a student gets clubbed in the back of their head walking back from class, ask them to "send you a link or it didn't happen."

Its not hard...just post the report!!! You dont need to post the whole email, although that would work to!!! Many feel as tho you are highly exagerating the situation!!!

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 02:19 PM
"Mysterious?"

Maybe to you.

It's a crime report that was sent to every UC employee. So, no, I don't have a link to emails sent to me years ago.

Wow, how mysterious. :rolleyes:

Look, if you want to continue in ignorance of the situation in Clifton, that's fine. The next time a student gets clubbed in the back of their head walking back from class, ask them to "send you a link or it didn't happen."


You really can't make this stuff up. Get me those crime reports Bob, I know you can do it.

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 02:21 PM
Breaking: I've just received several emails from UC saying that people have recently been raped, held at gun point, and stabbed, with an unidentified overfed, balding middle aged white male fleeing the scene.

texasdave
10-16-2012, 02:29 PM
Separately, it is always interesting and important to compare a city's crime rate with those of similarly sized communities - a fair comparison as larger cities tend to have more crime. NeighborhoodScout has done just that. With a population of 296,943, Cincinnati has a combined rate of violent and property crime that is very high compared to other places of similar population size. Regardless of whether Cincinnati does well or poorly compared to all other cities and towns in the US of all sizes, compared to places with a similar population, it fares badly. Few other communities of this size have a crime rate as high as Cincinnati.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/oh/cincinnati/crime/

Cincinnati's Crime Index is 1. (100 is the safest) Cincinnati is safer than 1% of the cities in the U.S. Anyway you slice it there is a lot of crime in the Queen City.

texasdave
10-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Two-thirds of the adults in the Cincinnati region believe Downtown is a safe place to visit or work.

Facts need context. Is this a good percentage or a bad percentage? I really have no idea. At first glance though, I believe if 1 out of every 3 adults is thinking a place is unsafe; that is not very good. It could be reality. It could be perception. Either way I don't think this is a stat that I would hang my hat on.

RedTruck
10-16-2012, 02:38 PM
So do we generally agree that the reason cincinnati hasn't grown more is because of the generalized thought that Cincinnati is still dangerous (and overrun by blacks) and thus they don't feel it's safe to raise their families and children in the downtown area.

That's why I feel is the most attributing factor. All the white families are afraid of us colored folk/

dubc47834
10-16-2012, 03:03 PM
I live in a small town in BFI Indiana. I have been to Cincy many times and walked around downtown with my family and not once have I felt unsafe. The same can not be said for other cities of what feel about the same size(pretty sure they are) like Louisville and Syracuse. I see on TV all the time that there is more than corn in Indiana, it's gotta be true....I can not varify for sure tho!!!

Bob Sheed
10-16-2012, 03:11 PM
You really can't make this stuff up. Get me those crime reports Bob, I know you can do it.


Its not hard...just post the report!!! You dont need to post the whole email, although that would work to!!! Many feel as tho you are highly exagerating the situation!!!

"Just post the report?" :laugh:

From an email inbox at a company I don't work for anymore?

Yeah...I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

I have a better idea:

Why don't you two go ahead and continue to think that Clifton is all sunshine and lollipops, while the rest of the world that is even remotely paying attention will know otherwise.

Sound like a plan? Great! :beerme:

I get so tired of these "link or it didn't happen" people. I'll tell you what, fellas... go fetch me a few emails from a company you don't work for anymore, otherwise "they never existed."

Get a clue.

dubc47834
10-16-2012, 03:34 PM
"Just post the report?" :laugh:

From an email inbox at a company I don't work for anymore?

Yeah...I'll get right on that. :rolleyes:

I have a better idea:

Why don't you two go ahead and continue to think that Clifton is all sunshine and lollipops, while the rest of the world that is even remotely paying attention will know otherwise.

Sound like a plan? Great! :beerme:

I get so tired of these "link or it didn't happen" people. I'll tell you what, fellas... go fetch me a few emails from a company you don't work for anymore, otherwise "they never existed."

Get a clue.

Oh...I'm sorry you can't hold down a job...how does welfare pay? J/K man...J/K!!!

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 03:49 PM
Why don't you two go ahead and continue to think that Clifton is all sunshine and lollipops, while the rest of the world that is even remotely paying attention will know otherwise.


Dude, I couldn't find Clifton on a map ! In fact, before this thread started, I doubt I'd ever heard of it. This is all about you making statements you can't back up. In the adult world you don't refer to documents you can't produce.

Bob Sheed
10-16-2012, 05:18 PM
Dude, I couldn't find Clifton on a map !

Sadly, I believe you.



This is all about you making statements you can't back up.

I back up my statements with first hand experience. Those don't always have readily available links. Remember your first kiss or the first time you had your heart broken? LINK PLEASE OR IT NEVER HAPPENED. :laugh:

Besides, even if I had access to those old emails, I certainly wouldn't take the legal risk of reposting them here, or anywhere else for that matter.



In the adult world you don't refer to documents you can't produce.



Oh I'm sorry, is this the adult world? :D Look...if you really want to know, there are plenty of people that either work or worked for UC that can verify these crime reports. But that's not really want you want. You are a troll, and you think you are bullying. But the real deal is that you are exposing your ignorance of Clifton, Cincinnati, and a great many other things to the rest of the community at RedsZone. And you have done so with such fervor, that I don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sorry for you.

BOTTOM LINE:
If you lived in Clifton and/or went to school in Clifton, then chances are VERY HIGH that you or someone you know has been robbed, assaulted, or both. You can't even say that about Downtown Cincinnati. It's sad, but it's true. There are many reasons for this, none of which have anything to do with race, and as pointed out, have more to do with the socio-economic status of the surrounding area. ...not that you would know any of this, because as you pointed out earlier, you are merely trolling.

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 05:56 PM
..if you really want to know, there are plenty of people that either work or worked for UC that can verify these crime reports.

Link please.

camisadelgolf
10-17-2012, 12:54 AM
To say that Cincinnati is or isn't safe is way too broad. As anyone who lives here should know, it's all about which neighborhood you're in, which block, the time of day, etc.

When you take the media's bias and circumstantial evidence out of the equation, it's actually a pretty safe place. The violent crimes tend to happen in the same few neighborhoods, so you only need to use common sense.

Caveat Emperor
10-17-2012, 01:11 AM
I just bought a house in the city of Cincinnati. It's a great city burdened by incredibly ineffective leadership.

The downtown area has a poverty problem that needs to be addressed, but I suspect you can make that claim of most midwest / rust-belt cities.

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 01:42 AM
I feel that if Cincinnati mixed it's housing development with rich condo's in poor area's than that somehow would create a better mesh, and create a more safer feeling overall.

What person in their right mind is going to choose to live among the poor when they are rich? Where on Earth does that happen? Rich people move away from the poor because the poor are linked with crime. Where is this magical place where the rich and poor live in the same Condo complex?

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 01:50 AM
Camis is right though, Cincinnati is and isn't safe. It really depends where you are and when you are there. Generally speaking, most places are going to seem more safe at 3pm than at 11pm. Price Hill isn't going to feel as safe as Indian Hill no matter what time it is. Bahama Terrace? No thanks.

But really, Texas Dave had it wrapped up pretty nicely on the last page. Cincinnati has an incredibly high rate of crime. That isn't good for growth. Roughly one third of the people in the area feel it isn't even safe to WORK downtown, much less live there. That isn't going to promote growth.

Let's be honest though, downtown sucked for most of my life. I am 28. Until The Banks were completed, there really wasn't much to do downtown other than head to the museum or go to a sporting event. Shopping seems non-existent for the most part. Sure, there are places down there, but it isn't a destination for shopping for most people. Top it off with it being a hilly city and walking around it isn't a thing of joy either. In fact, it kind of sucks.

There are a bunch of reasons the city hasn't grown. Crime is a big reason for it.

BurgervilleBuck
10-17-2012, 01:51 AM
That's why I feel is the most attributing factor. All the white families are afraid of us colored folk/
Hey... I think he's catching on. ;)

BurgervilleBuck
10-17-2012, 01:55 AM
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/oh/cincinnati/crime/

Cincinnati's Crime Index is 1. (100 is the safest) Cincinnati is safer than 1% of the cities in the U.S. Anyway you slice it there is a lot of crime in the Queen City.
See previous exaggeration. This place ain't BodyMore, Murderland.

BurgervilleBuck
10-17-2012, 02:00 AM
BOTTOM LINE:
If you lived in Clifton and/or went to school in Clifton, then chances are VERY HIGH that you or someone you know has been robbed, assaulted, or both.
I went to Hughes High School for a couple years. I studied at UC. I used to live off of Ludlow and I just recently moved back to MLK/Riddle Road. As far as I can recollect, I nor anyone I've known has had a problem.

Except, when I was dating my ex-wife, her car was broken into, but that was her fault for leaving it in a dark lot near Deaconess for a couple days.

Again... link?

Bob Sheed
10-17-2012, 09:56 AM
I went to Hughes High School for a couple years. I studied at UC. I used to live off of Ludlow and I just recently moved back to MLK/Riddle Road. As far as I can recollect, I nor anyone I've known has had a problem.

Except, when I was dating my ex-wife, her car was broken into, but that was her fault for leaving it in a dark lot near Deaconess for a couple days.

Again... link?

Love to. Here...have a FEW links:

1. Here's a fun one to start out with:
http://www.spotcrime.com/oh/cincinnati/clifton

Two shootings, just in the past 4 days. To say nothing of burglaries, theft, etc.
And many crimes go unreported, but we won't count those .;)

2. Here is the UC report for University Hospital:
http://www.uc.edu/webapps/publicsafety/CR/UHI.PDF
51 thefts, 31 assaults, 1 rape, so far this year. Just at the Hospital!

3. Here it is for just UC Campus:
268 Thefts
13 Assaults
16 Burglaries
3 Robberies
...so far this year.
And this is JUST ON CAMPUS!

Yep. REAL safe.

The part that floors me is that you went to Hughes. That's where most of the crime on/off campus in Clifton originates from!! And no I don't have a link for that, you shouldn't need one if you really went to Hughes.

Have a great day.

Bob Sheed
10-17-2012, 10:00 AM
Link please.

Here you go, troll. Have a rickroll.:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

texasdave
10-17-2012, 10:13 AM
See previous exaggeration. This place ain't BodyMore, Murderland.

Using Baltimore, Maryland as the standard as to whether a city/community is dangerous is ignorant at best. You can close your eyes to the statistics if you want but that does not make them go away.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/opinionati/2010/10/04/over-the-rhine-ranks-among-uss-top-25-most-dangerous-neighborhoods/

camisadelgolf
10-17-2012, 01:07 PM
Love to. Here...have a FEW links:

1. Here's a fun one to start out with:
http://www.spotcrime.com/oh/cincinnati/clifton

Two shootings, just in the past 4 days. To say nothing of burglaries, theft, etc.
And many crimes go unreported, but we won't count those .;)

2. Here is the UC report for University Hospital:
http://www.uc.edu/webapps/publicsafety/CR/UHI.PDF
51 thefts, 31 assaults, 1 rape, so far this year. Just at the Hospital!

3. Here it is for just UC Campus:
268 Thefts
13 Assaults
16 Burglaries
3 Robberies
...so far this year.
And this is JUST ON CAMPUS!

Yep. REAL safe.

The part that floors me is that you went to Hughes. That's where most of the crime on/off campus in Clifton originates from!! And no I don't have a link for that, you shouldn't need one if you really went to Hughes.

Have a great day.
College neighborhoods are notoriously unsafe. How do these numbers compare to similar cities? That's what we're talking about here. I'm not defending an argument that Clifton, Corryville, University Heights, etc. is a safe area, but that part of town is hardly representative of the entire city. How often are any of you at University Hospital, and does it's perceived lack of safety actually have an effect on any of you? It seems like stats are being cherry-picked just to say Greater Cincinnati is unsafe. If we're talking about only Cincinnati's jurisdiction, well, it's much easier to identify why it's unsafe.

cooperlamar
10-17-2012, 01:32 PM
Yeah, I've lived in Cincinnati for over a decade and have stepped foot in Clifton all of about 5 times and I don't think I've ever even been to Avondale, Bond Hill, University Heights or Corryville.

Of course there are bad neighborhoods, lots of them - every big city has them. You can manipulate the statistics to say whatever you want them to say. However between the river and the Gateway Quarter it is extremely safe and getting safer. When I think of Cincinnati, that's what I think of - obviously 99% of us are going to avoid Avondale, Bond Hill, and the bad parts of Clifton. The business district downtown, the banks, the areas around the stadiums, and now up into the Gateway Quarter are all extremely safe. Compare Cincinnati to Detroit - you can't even walk around the stadiums anymore without fear.

westofyou
10-17-2012, 01:39 PM
Why is this thread even in this section of the site?

westofyou
10-17-2012, 01:40 PM
nm

Bob Sheed
10-17-2012, 02:09 PM
College neighborhoods are notoriously unsafe.

I have hung out in 7 or 8 different college towns. There are some sketchy parts outside of OSU. Beyond that, I have yet to find anything even remotely as sketchy as Clifton. And on campus? Nowhere else even comes close.


I never said Cincinnati wasn't safe. Comparatively, I think it is quite safe.

But Clifton, compared to most other college areas? It's not even close.

Bob Sheed
10-17-2012, 02:15 PM
Yeah, I've lived in Cincinnati for over a decade and have stepped foot in Clifton all of about 5 times and I don't think I've ever even been to Avondale, Bond Hill, University Heights or Corryville.

Of course there are bad neighborhoods, lots of them - every big city has them. You can manipulate the statistics to say whatever you want them to say. However between the river and the Gateway Quarter it is extremely safe and getting safer. When I think of Cincinnati, that's what I think of - obviously 99% of us are going to avoid Avondale, Bond Hill, and the bad parts of Clifton. The business district downtown, the banks, the areas around the stadiums, and now up into the Gateway Quarter are all extremely safe. Compare Cincinnati to Detroit - you can't even walk around the stadiums anymore without fear.

What exactly are the "good parts" of Clifton? Ludlow? Been down there lately? I have. Looks like Calhoun Street did 10 years ago. I was shocked. It used to be what I would describe as somewhat upscale.

As far as the area by the stadiums? Now that is something to be happy about. That area has changed for the better, in leaps and bounds from even a few years ago. It's a vibrant, really fun place to go nowadays. Used to be, you'd go to the ballpark, watch the game, and leave. Now there is just so much to do and see down there. It's really incredible how that area has changed for the better.

Clifton on the other hand? It's sad. I'll tell you one thing that would improve Clifton about a million percent though.... bulldoze Hughes High School and put up a parking lot/greenspace. :beerme:

kaldaniels
10-17-2012, 02:20 PM
I thought Cincinnati was a top-3 travel destination? It seems I have heard that once or a thousand times before.

camisadelgolf
10-17-2012, 03:16 PM
I think a lot of you are confusing Corryville for Clifton.

Mutaman
10-17-2012, 03:49 PM
You are a troll, and you think you are bullying.

I figured this would get down to the old ad hominems sooner or later. I don't think I'm "bullying" and I've never been accused of that by anyone, particularly when I'm simply asking someone to back up a statement they are making.

Will admit I don't suffer fools gladly.

Chip R
10-17-2012, 09:19 PM
I'm sort of envious.

Cincinnati is, what it is. But why hasn't it grown to become a major city? We have so many big companies here, why hasn't the core grown? I love cincinnati, but at the same time I realize that the core is 75% composed of african americans/low income families, and 25% middle, to high income families.

I just love cincinnati, and I love the reds. But I always hoped during the 70's of the era of the BRM that Cincinnati would one day become a sister to Chicago, and expand in size and scope. Instead it feels we make minimal progress decade by decade.

I just look at the Reds, and there week day 20K fans, and realize it's mainly due to most of the reds fans living in the suburbs and outside bordering states and middle ohio. If cincinnati grew, the core would follow. The stadium would be packed every night.

I still love cincinnati, and accept it for what it is. But sometimes I close my eyes and envision how it would be if it was similar to chicago in scope and size. How lively the city would be, how lively the stadium would be on a nightly basis regardless of the month.

We're making solid progress with the banks, and hopefully that's a sign of things to come..hopefully...

Getting back to the original question, the obvious answer is that there aren't enough people here. Cincinnati has many virtues and vices but a city like Chicago has almost 3 times the area Cincinnati does. Chicago has about 9 times the population Cincinnati does. But that didn't happen overnight. Back in 1850, Cincinnati had almost 4 times the people Chicago had. By 1900 Chicago had 4 times the population Cincinnati had. Chicago grew over twice as much as Cincinnati had each decade until 1940 until Chicago had close to 9 times as many people as Cincinnati. So how do you get 1.5M people to move here and where do you put them? Obviously that's not going to happen.

As for Reds attendance, you don't have to be a city like Chicago to draw 3M people. MIL and StL are perfect examples. However, MIL has a retractable roof stadium where fans can attend games in April and May and September and October without having to worry about the cold weather. Tomes have been written about why StL draws well. Cincinnati - with the exception of the 1970s - has never drawn well on a consistent basis. Even during the 70s, you would get weekday games where they drew 12K for ATL or HOU. But on the weekends, they would draw 35-50K on a regular basis. So it kind of evened out. Still, they never drew more than 2.6M in a given year. But that was awesome back then. Only L.A. was drawing close to 3M and that didn't happen till 1978.

Now maybe, if the Reds continue to do well, they can get 37K a night to get 3M to come out. But that's only going to happen if everything breaks right. The Reds will have to do very well out of the gate and keep it up to the end. The weather will have to be nice. Promotions will have to be good too. Fans are really going to have to snap up season tickets. It's not impossible but it's pretty unlikely.

Yachtzee
10-17-2012, 11:18 PM
I don't think crime has much to do with it. I find Cincinnati rather safe compared to other cities I've been to or lived in. The link texasdave posted makes Cincinnati look bad, but it makes all major cities look bad. Most of the big cities in Ohio are a 1 or 2 on the crime index and I suspect it's because the site compares big urban cities against smaller suburban and rural municipalities. Having lived in Chicago, I can say there are parts that make Clifton seem downright tame. Chicago may have a better crime rate index, but part of that has to do with Chicago gentrifying bad neighborhoods on the North side and pushing many low income residents out to Cicero or Hammond, IN. I imagine Cincinnati would look better if they bough up low income housing in Over-the-Rhine and Clifton and pushed the poor onto Blue Ash and Covington.

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 11:23 PM
Didn't Cincinnati do exactly that in OTR and that is why OTR is improving?

texasdave
10-17-2012, 11:28 PM
I think several people must have rushed through the post too quickly and missed the pertinent sentence. Cincinnati fares poorly when compared with cities of a similar population size.



Separately, it is always interesting and important to compare a city's crime rate with those of similarly sized communities - a fair comparison as larger cities tend to have more crime. NeighborhoodScout has done just that. With a population of 296,943, Cincinnati has a combined rate of violent and property crime that is very high compared to other places of similar population size. Regardless of whether Cincinnati does well or poorly compared to all other cities and towns in the US of all sizes, compared to places with a similar population, it fares badly. Few other communities of this size have a crime rate as high as Cincinnati.

Yachtzee
10-17-2012, 11:43 PM
Didn't Cincinnati do exactly that in OTR and that is why OTR is improving?

Slowly but surely. Chicago has a 15 year jump on them though.

Yachtzee
10-18-2012, 12:12 AM
I think several people must have rushed through the post too quickly and missed the pertinent sentence. Cincinnati fares poorly when compared with cities of a similar population size.

Cincinnati proper is small compared to many other cities proper, even though the metro area puts it into a larger market than some of those other cities. Look at some similarly situated cities, like Cleveland, St. Louis, or New Orleans. How do those cities compare?

texasdave
10-18-2012, 12:24 AM
Cincinnati proper is small compared to many other cities proper, even though the metro area puts it into a larger market than some of those other cities. Look at some similarly situated cities, like Cleveland, St. Louis, or New Orleans. How do those cities compare?

Well, I posted and highlighted it twice. If that's not good enough, forget it. Believe what you want.

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 12:38 AM
Didn't Cincinnati do exactly that in OTR and that is why OTR is improving?
That's kind of a myth. The "gentrification" that supposedly took place mostly pushed people to other sections of OtR (although some of it went to other nearby neighborhoods e.g. Price Hill). There's still plenty of low-income housing available there, and there always will be.

nmculbreth
10-18-2012, 01:02 AM
BOTTOM LINE:
If you lived in Clifton and/or went to school in Clifton, then chances are VERY HIGH that you or someone you know has been robbed, assaulted, or both. You can't even say that about Downtown Cincinnati. It's sad, but it's true. There are many reasons for this, none of which have anything to do with race, and as pointed out, have more to do with the socio-economic status of the surrounding area. ...not that you would know any of this, because as you pointed out earlier, you are merely trolling.

Counter-point: I lived in Clifton for the better part of a decade doing my undergrad and grad school work and was never once robbed, assaulted or anything of the sort nor do I remember anything more serious than a car break-in happening to anyone I was friends with.

I used to run laps around the campus very late (between 11PM and 2AM) and I cannot remember a situation where I felt unsafe doing so.

I'm not saying that there is no crime but as with most things if you exercise a little common sense and don't put yourself in bad situations chances are very good that you'll be fine.

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 01:30 AM
Clifton is pretty safe. But if you're in Corryville (e.g. Short Vine), you're going to run into problems sooner or later. That place has deteriorated for years. The conspiracy theorist in me says there was an effort to lower property value so it would be easier to buy it all, and allowing crime was the easiest way to do that. I have a lot of anecdotal evidence to back that up, and all you need to do is talk to business owners around that area to find out how plausible it is. UC is Cincinnati's biggest employer and have been growing at a swift rate. Their influence is grossly underestimated.

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 01:39 AM
A lot of the crime in "Clifton"--maybe most of it--comes from Mt. Auburn, Over-the-Rhine, etc. You're talking about people with hardly any money being surrounded by kids who come from money. It's easy pickin's. They come up to Clifton and University Heights, look for unattended cars (especially ones with unlocked doors), steal what they can, and go back. There isn't a lot of violent crime involved. It's more inconvenient than it is unsafe. The violent crimes in this city are drug-related, and the people with crack and meth problems aren't hanging out on UC's campus.

gilpdawg
10-18-2012, 01:56 AM
< http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100207/EDIT03/2070327?nclick_check=1>

Says if this happens, which should be in 2013, would become like a Dallas-Fort Worth area, so Cincinnati-Dayton. Cincinnati would become the 15th largest city in America with just a little over 3 million people.

Driving 75 between the two cities you almost don't leave development now. When I was a kid you left town past West Chester (the SR 129 was new and the exits in that area weren't as developed as they are now) and was in rural areas until the Dayton Daily building. In 20 years that corridor will be suburban sprall hell.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk HD

gilpdawg
10-18-2012, 02:08 AM
I grew up in Richmond In, right on the Ohio boarder...We had Dayton & Cincy TV & spent alot of our mini vacations going to 'Crosley Field', 'Coney Island' & the 'Zoo'....I love the charm of the city on the waterfront!!
I wanted to relive some of those memories this summer & went to 'Coney' & the 'Zoo' & had a great night out...I've been in Indy for the last 22 yrs & love it but Cincy has a big piece of my heart & always will!!;)

Indy is great. Of course all cities where a lot of people live are going to have pockets of crime areas. Cincy gets a bad rap from outsiders. There's areas to avoid like everywhere else but not like people say. I overheard someone on Crosley Terrace say before game 3 of the Giants series "don't go north of 3rd St.", which is asinine.

BTW I am from Cambridge City, and live in New Paris now. There's only a couple Wayne County peeps on this board AFAIK.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk HD

vaticanplum
10-18-2012, 09:43 AM
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.

Cincinnatians have a reputation for being averse to change. The most common argument I hear against public transportation in the city is "people like their cars." It's not the only reason I hear; I also hear about inefficient planning and cost (though I hear more complaints than proposed solutions). But mostly I hear about people liking cars. That kind of mentality is stifling long-term. It's why I left (so I'm part of the problem too). I think Cincinnati is a beautiful city and I would love to be able to be closer to my family and my beloved sports teams. But I am a city-dweller, and I have no patience for a city that is averse to investment in its future, averse to change, averse to integration. There's a real sense that change is too hard so why bother? It's defeatest and depressing.

Chip R
10-18-2012, 10:17 AM
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.

I don't think schools is a problem that is unique to Cincinnati.

As for levys failing, I don't think it's as simple as protecting their wallets as opposed to investing in their future. I do think people want what is best for their kids but I do some work for a market research company. Every so often we do surveys for potential levys in the area. Of course I don't know the whole story for every district but it seems like people don't believe that building new buildings, etc. will do that much good. I hear these people talk about how the school district squanders the money raised from levys passed just recently. It's a small sample size to be sure and I do hear people who are willing and able to vote for levys so maybe it evens out. But I certainly can't blame people who are closer to the situation than I am to not want to throw good money after what they believe is bad.

wolfboy
10-18-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm shocked that no one has mentioned schools.

Every single person I know who has lived in the city limits has moved out once their kids were born. Every single one. And a good number of those still don't send their kids to public schools.

I was privately educated and I'm all for that choice, but if a huge number of families moves out of the city limits to avoid the city schools, then the schools don't get any better and the city doesn't get any bigger.

And every election, I hear about some levy failing in some suburban school district. Extracurriculars cut, buses cut, on and on. People by and large seem more interested in protecting their wallets than investing in the future of their community's kids. Again, that's a personal choice, but there's no question that that's going to hamper community growth in the long-term.

Cincinnatians have a reputation for being averse to change. The most common argument I hear against public transportation in the city is "people like their cars." It's not the only reason I hear; I also hear about inefficient planning and cost (though I hear more complaints than proposed solutions). But mostly I hear about people liking cars. That kind of mentality is stifling long-term. It's why I left (so I'm part of the problem too). I think Cincinnati is a beautiful city and I would love to be able to be closer to my family and my beloved sports teams. But I am a city-dweller, and I have no patience for a city that is averse to investment in its future, averse to change, averse to integration. There's a real sense that change is too hard so why bother? It's defeatest and depressing.

3CDC has invested over 350 million dollars in the city's core and OTR since its inception. That's serious investment in the city's future. While many are averse to change, I'd argue that a strong majority has been raising the banner of change and innovation for quite some time. Look at the work the city's Park Board has done lately. I'd also argue that the city is making great strides in integration. Have you visited Washington Park since its remodel? You'd think you were somewhere in New York, not Cincinnati. Have you followed the work the Port Authority is attempting to do in Bond Hill?

For me, the defeatest and depressing aspect is in the fact that we refuse to rally around the city. The tired resignation that this city will always be second class is what holds it back. In fact, the responses in this thread have only bolstered my theory. I've witnessed an almost universal failure to recognize the great strides Cincinnati has made in the last few years. What's the response to being named a top three travel destination? A snicker. It's really mind boggling to me.

Of course, maybe that's the heart of the problem. We all want the best for the city, we're just not willing to roll up our sleeves and do the hard work to get it done. It's much easier to say things will never change. It's much easier to ignore the hard work and progress. It's much easier to criticize from afar and wait for the momentum to sputter out. Sometimes it's much easier to move away.

vaticanplum
10-18-2012, 11:00 AM
3CDC has invested over 350 million dollars in the city's core and OTR since its inception. That's serious investment in the city's future. While many are averse to change, I'd argue that a strong majority has been raising the banner of change and innovation for quite some time. Look at the work the city's Park Board has done lately. I'd also argue that the city is making great strides in integration. Have you visited Washington Park since its remodel? You'd think you were somewhere in New York, not Cincinnati. Have you followed the work the Port Authority is attempting to do in Bond Hill?

For me, the defeatest and depressing aspect is in the fact that we refuse to rally around the city. The tired resignation that this city will always be second class is what holds it back. In fact, the responses in this thread have only bolstered my theory. I've witnessed an almost universal failure to recognize the great strides Cincinnati has made in the last few years. What's the response to being named a top three travel destination? A snicker. It's really mind boggling to me.

Of course, maybe that's the heart of the problem. We all want the best for the city, we're just not willing to roll up our sleeves and do the hard work to get it done. It's much easier to say things will never change. It's much easier to ignore the hard work and progress. It's much easier to criticize from afar and wait for the momentum to sputter out. Sometimes it's much easier to move away.

This is actually a more accurate way of expressing what I wanted to say. I want to be clear that what I find defeatest and averse to change *is* general attitudes of residents, not necessarily what the city is doing. I have been to Washington Park, I have been bowled over by the new section of OTR, and I haven't even seen the Banks yet, but I was very impressed with the plans, particularly the green space, as you mention.

And my family, for example -- which is huge and diverse in terms of interests -- barely knows that this exists. I believe that one person in the entire family has seen any of these things. If you ask them anything about what is happening in Cincinnati, they will make some comment about the ineptness of city council, something catty about how long the Banks took to be built, and move on.

Obviously, that's not everybody, but I have found it more widespread than I have other places. That, attitude, is a much harder thing to change than things themselves. People seem to take comfort, even pride, in their city being stuck. I just find it very frustrating. It's like Cubs fandom.

And Chip, I do think that attitude spreads to schools differently than it does other places. The resignation of the quality of city schools is far worse than anywhere else I've lived. The schools themselves may not be worse, but with that attitude, it's harder for them to improve. Nowhere else, nowhere else I have lived (and I have moved a lot) have 100% of adults I know moved out of the city limits when their kids reached school age.

Caveat Emperor
10-18-2012, 11:24 AM
On the subject of schools -- I just bought a home within the city limits of Cincinnati. The first thing I noticed, while looking for homes w/ my wife-to-be, is how outrageously expensive property taxes are. It wasn't uncommon to see numbers breakdowns for various houses where the actual mortgage was $700-$800 per month, and the property taxes were over $400 per month on top of that.

I admit, I'm a conservative guy by nature -- but I agree that good schools are in everyone's best interest. It's just very difficult to get me excited about voting for new school levies when so much money is being taken directly out of my pocket every month in property taxes already (in addition to city income tax I pay for working in Cincinnati, state income tax I pay for living in Ohio, and the federal income tax I pay at the base).

Hoosier Red
10-18-2012, 11:37 AM
Well, I posted and highlighted it twice. If that's not good enough, forget it. Believe what you want.

I think the problem Yachtzee was speaking of was how this site classified "similarly sized communities."

As he pointed out, Cincinnati's smaller geographic footprint makes the crime that happens in a few specific areas look worse. This is because the city has a much smaller official population than many similar "Metropolitan centers."

For instance, I don't think you'd have much of an argument that Cincinnati and Indianapolis are fairly similarly sized communities.

In the data reported, Indianapolis came in as a 10, Cincinnati came in as a 1.
However, when looking at the violent crime data provided, Indianapolis had 5,752 "violent crimes" while Cincinnati had 3,657 violent crimes.

The secret to Indy's comparably good rating is it's larger geography. The city and county merged all but a few areas a few decades back. So Indianapolis has a population of 820,445, while the Queen City has almost a third of that at 296,943.

Take a look at the cities on this list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

Of the cities above or below Cincinnati's population by about 10K, how many would you actually believe Cincinnati is like? Maybe Pittsburgh?

It's not a surprise that Cincinnati has a higher crime rate than Toledo, or Lexington, or Anchorage. There are more people congregating there, even if they don't officially live within the city limits.

dougdirt
10-18-2012, 12:31 PM
That's kind of a myth. The "gentrification" that supposedly took place mostly pushed people to other sections of OtR (although some of it went to other nearby neighborhoods e.g. Price Hill). There's still plenty of low-income housing available there, and there always will be.

It is also kind of true. OTR has safe areas now and I am not so sure that it used to.

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 01:59 PM
It is also kind of true. OTR has safe areas now and I am not so sure that it used to.
Right, well, you're mostly referring to Main Street. You probably don't remember what it was like down there before the race riot.

dougdirt
10-18-2012, 02:27 PM
Right, well, you're mostly referring to Main Street. You probably don't remember what it was like down there before the race riot.

I don't know what it is like now. Still haven't been. Don't really care to go either. I don't go out much.

bucksfan2
10-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Are we talking the "city limits" or the "metro area". If were talking the metro area I think Cincinnati is doing fine. Within the next decade I think that Dayton will be included in the "Cincinnati Metro Area" similar to that of Dallas/Ft. Worth.

If we talking about the city limits there are a number of reasons the city isn't growing. You can first and foremost look at the dynamic of city politics. You have both Hamilton County and The City of Cincinnati trying to rule over the same area. You need an agreement on both in order to do a lot of things. One needs to look no further than the disaster known as the Banks from 2003 until 2011. Politics and bickering really held of the development of the most valuable piece of real estate in the city and something that has turned into a very good thing.

The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

In general I think Midwesterners like to drive. Unfortunately I think the boat on mass transit was missed in the early part of the 20th century when Cincinnati decided to quit building the subway. Today a massive project like that will be very expensive and very time consuming. I enjoy mass transit in areas where it convenient and successful, not Chicago. I "like" the idea of a street car but think the process has been muddled and is off to an unsuccessful start.

westofyou
10-18-2012, 02:39 PM
Are we talking the "city limits" or the "metro area". If were talking the metro area I think Cincinnati is doing fine. Within the next decade I think that Dayton will be included in the "Cincinnati Metro Area" similar to that of Dallas/Ft. Worth.

If we talking about the city limits there are a number of reasons the city isn't growing. You can first and foremost look at the dynamic of city politics. You have both Hamilton County and The City of Cincinnati trying to rule over the same area. You need an agreement on both in order to do a lot of things. One needs to look no further than the disaster known as the Banks from 2003 until 2011. Politics and bickering really held of the development of the most valuable piece of real estate in the city and something that has turned into a very good thing.

The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

In general I think Midwesterners like to drive. Unfortunately I think the boat on mass transit was missed in the early part of the 20th century when Cincinnati decided to quit building the subway. Today a massive project like that will be very expensive and very time consuming. I enjoy mass transit in areas where it convenient and successful, not Chicago. I "like" the idea of a street car but think the process has been muddled and is off to an unsuccessful start.

The failure can be directly attributed to the decline in the Machine Politics that had held on to the city for 40 years, in short they ran out of money, killed the project and the machine ended up being broken apart and the current city government structure was introduced, this also affected the Reds and their money as the machine was firmly entrenched in the teams finances.

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 02:57 PM
I don't know what it is like now. Still haven't been. Don't really care to go either. I don't go out much.
It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

dougdirt
10-18-2012, 03:02 PM
It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

Never been in Northside other than passing through on my way to other places. I do like good music, but I find it better to listen to without a bunch of other people around, without alcohol around and with the option of finding a clean bathroom.

vaticanplum
10-18-2012, 03:05 PM
The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

isn't Clark a good school? It is at least revolutionary, I know that. I think it may have been the first montessori high school in the country.

As a basis for comparison, Pittsburgh has really attacked its school system's problems head on for the past decade, and the schools have improved dramatically. They implemented accelerated learning programs for poorer-performing schools (extending their school year, even) and instituted nationally-recognized teacher development programs, among other initiatives. It has coincided, not coincidentally, with an explosion of business in the city, including the aforementioned Google coup. But then, our taxes are quite high. Three percent city income tax, two percent of which is for schools. And property taxes are high, not to mention recently decentralized, so they are messy to boot.

bucksfan2
10-18-2012, 03:08 PM
It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

Can't say the same for good music, but good beer can be found everywhere now. This is a little off topic but there has been an explosion of craft beer across america. It used to be you would go to a bar and the only beers you could find were the mass produced beers. Now what used to be unique to the Northside and OTR and more "hipster" joints are found in most local bar/restaurants. Go to any decent bar and they will have a couple of craft seasonal beers on tap.

OTR I am kinda meh about. They have some nice areas, but there comes a time when "trendy" gets a little too expensive and a little too crowded. Went to Senate a year or so ago and spent $75 on a cheeseburger, hot dog, and beer:eek:.

westofyou
10-18-2012, 03:11 PM
This is a little off topic but there has been an explosion of craft beer across america.


I just quoted you on my Prodigy account via my 486

cooperlamar
10-18-2012, 03:18 PM
BTW, downtown is absolutely growing - it has been growing about 12% a year since 2009 - not sure any area should grow any quicker than that. It will likely increase over the next few years as the next phases of the Banks and condos in OTR emerge. My guess is that the casino will also significantly help Pendleton and the eastern portion of OTR. There has also been a 25% crime drop in the past 10 years.

Again, downtown Cincinnati is far from perfect but IMO it's much better than any downtown area in the region outside of Chicago.

Redsfaithful
10-18-2012, 03:26 PM
I have hung out in 7 or 8 different college towns. There are some sketchy parts outside of OSU. Beyond that, I have yet to find anything even remotely as sketchy as Clifton. And on campus? Nowhere else even comes close.


I never said Cincinnati wasn't safe. Comparatively, I think it is quite safe.

But Clifton, compared to most other college areas? It's not even close.

I've lived on and off campus at OSU and lived off campus in Clifton, and OSU is more Disney-fied, but it's really not that big of a difference. I never had problems running at night around either campus.

But it's been 10-11 years since I lived in Clifton, so it could be worse now I guess.

vaticanplum
10-18-2012, 03:28 PM
BTW, downtown is absolutely growing - it has been growing about 12% a year since 2009 - not sure any area should grow any quicker than that. It will likely increase over the next few years as the next phases of the Banks and condos in OTR emerge. My guess is that the casino will also significantly help Pendleton and the eastern portion of OTR. There has also been a 25% crime drop in the past 10 years.

Again, downtown Cincinnati is far from perfect but IMO it's much better than any downtown area in the region outside of Chicago.

I looked (for fun, not really seriously) at a few of the condos going up in downtown Cincinnati when I was living there in 2008. I would love to have lived there, but there were a few major problems.

They ranged in price from about $200-220K for a studio or a one-bedroom. That, to me, seemed incredibly high, particularly for two reasons: 1. Property taxes notwithstanding, housing in Cincinnati tends to be cheap compared to other urban areas. $200K will buy you a lot of house in much of the city. So it seemed silly to spend that much money on a studio apartment. 2. Public transporation is difficult in Cincinnati. On the weekends, the exact time a resident of downtown would want to get out, maybe, it would take hours to get anywhere on a bus. That's the reason, IMHO, that a comparison with a city like Chicago can't be made. One of the major reasons one can usually afford a $200K condo downtown is because one saves a lot of money by not owning a car. That is not the case in Cincinnati.

At the time, too, there was little green space downtown, and not a single grocery store. I know the former has changed and maybe the latter has too. But you can't entice people to live downtown if they have to get in their cars and make a 20-minute drive every time they need to go to the grocery store, and you can't entice growing families to stay if they have to pay $220K for a one-bedroom and have really no choice to leave when their kids come along and they have nowhere to put them to sleep or take them to play. It seemed directly set up to appeal to young professionals, which is great, but all of those people who marry and have kids will eventually have to leave. I hope this has changed.

Rojo
10-18-2012, 03:28 PM
"When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati. It is always ten years behind the times" ~ Mark Twain (unverified).

Geographically, Cincinnati's decline might in part be attributable to the completion of the Saint Lawrence Seaway in 1959.

Sea Ray
10-18-2012, 03:37 PM
OTR I am kinda meh about. They have some nice areas, but there comes a time when "trendy" gets a little too expensive and a little too crowded. Went to Senate a year or so ago and spent $75 on a cheeseburger, hot dog, and beer:eek:.

Yes, those hot dogs at the Senate are good but they start at $10 and that doesn't include fries or anything else. Can a restaurant really survive long term with such a menu?

camisadelgolf
10-18-2012, 03:56 PM
Yes, those hot dogs at the Senate are good but they start at $10 and that doesn't include fries or anything else. Can a restaurant really survive long term with such a menu?
To be fair, you won't find a better dog in the city. But if you know the right people at Mayday, they can do some great stuff at a more reasonable price.

reds1869
10-18-2012, 04:19 PM
Wow, this thread took off! So much to discuss but I just want to add my two cents.

I live downtown and have for three years. I absolutely love it and would never move back to the suburbs. My wife walks to work which allowed us to sell one of our cars. The often cited problem of no grocery store in the neighborhood doesn't bother me at all; we didn't have one in any of the neighborhoods I lived in in Cleveland, Columbus, suburban Cincinnati or West Virginia. In fact all of the places I routinely shop for food now are closer than the places I shopped in other neighborhoods. Not only that but a lot is made up for by having the Reds as my next door neighbor!

As for Cincinnati Public Schools, I would send my kids to many of them without hesitation--including quite a few neighborhood schools. I teach at a neighborhood school that was just rated Excellent with Distinction and has minimal discipline problems. It is not in a remotely wealthy part of town and we have a large population of non-native English speakers. It is truly diverse with a great mix of families from various backgrounds. On top of it all the faculty and staff have high expectations for the students and themselves. I would send my kids to my school in a heartbeat. You don't necessarily have to go to a magnet school to receive a great education in the CPS system.

Eric from NC
10-18-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm not an expert on the economics of Cincy. However, I really have enjoyed spending a weekend in Cincy the last 3 Septembers. I have really found downtown Cincinnati a great place to visit. They seem to have a street festival at Fountain Square most weekends. The area around the ballpark is great. I also enjoyed the Underground Railroad Museum. The downtown seems incredibly safe to me.

cooperlamar
10-18-2012, 07:19 PM
I looked (for fun, not really seriously) at a few of the condos going up in downtown Cincinnati when I was living there in 2008. I would love to have lived there, but there were a few major problems.

They ranged in price from about $200-220K for a studio or a one-bedroom. That, to me, seemed incredibly high, particularly for two reasons: 1. Property taxes notwithstanding, housing in Cincinnati tends to be cheap compared to other urban areas. $200K will buy you a lot of house in much of the city. So it seemed silly to spend that much money on a studio apartment. 2. Public transporation is difficult in Cincinnati. On the weekends, the exact time a resident of downtown would want to get out, maybe, it would take hours to get anywhere on a bus. That's the reason, IMHO, that a comparison with a city like Chicago can't be made. One of the major reasons one can usually afford a $200K condo downtown is because one saves a lot of money by not owning a car. That is not the case in Cincinnati.

At the time, too, there was little green space downtown, and not a single grocery store. I know the former has changed and maybe the latter has too. But you can't entice people to live downtown if they have to get in their cars and make a 20-minute drive every time they need to go to the grocery store, and you can't entice growing families to stay if they have to pay $220K for a one-bedroom and have really no choice to leave when their kids come along and they have nowhere to put them to sleep or take them to play. It seemed directly set up to appeal to young professionals, which is great, but all of those people who marry and have kids will eventually have to leave. I hope this has changed.

Great post and I completely agree. The condos are very expensive - the ones on 4th are as well as the new ones they're building in OTR.

There is still Kroger downtown and apparently it's been cleaned up somewhat. I know that it isn't ideal but it is in the area where all of the condos are being built, all of the new bars/restaurants in the Gateway Quarter and by Washington Park. I suspect that it will change quite a bit in the next year or so since it's survived this long.

BurgervilleBuck
10-18-2012, 08:35 PM
What exactly are the "good parts" of Clifton? Ludlow? Been down there lately? I have. Looks like Calhoun Street did 10 years ago. I was shocked. It used to be what I would describe as somewhat upscale.
Oh, did they have a hipster coffee house and an elegant old movie theater? Honestly, I don't see any of what you're talking about and I live right off of MLK. Loud stereos? Yeah. Garbage? Yeah. But rapes, robberies, and the like I haven't seen.


Clifton on the other hand? It's sad. I'll tell you one thing that would improve Clifton about a million percent though.... bulldoze Hughes High School and put up a parking lot/greenspace. :beerme:
Baby out with the bathwater, sir. Unless you don't mind busing those disaffected to your neighborhood schools.

Oh wait...

BurgervilleBuck
10-18-2012, 08:39 PM
Clifton is pretty safe. But if you're in Corryville (e.g. Short Vine), you're going to run into problems sooner or later. That place has deteriorated for years. The conspiracy theorist in me says there was an effort to lower property value so it would be easier to buy it all, and allowing crime was the easiest way to do that. I have a lot of anecdotal evidence to back that up, and all you need to do is talk to business owners around that area to find out how plausible it is. UC is Cincinnati's biggest employer and have been growing at a swift rate. Their influence is grossly underestimated.
I don't think your theory is that far off the mark. Didn't UC buy the building that housed Sudsy Malone's?

Joseph
10-18-2012, 08:54 PM
Think downtown Cincy is scary, try downtown Detroit.

My brother in law is a state trooper and he [while carrying] didn't want to hang around after the Tigers game. We even rolled through an area where we felt like Clark Griswold in East St Louis looking at all the plight.

wolfboy
10-18-2012, 09:23 PM
I'm not an expert on the economics of Cincy. However, I really have enjoyed spending a weekend in Cincy the last 3 Septembers. I have really found downtown Cincinnati a great place to visit. They seem to have a street festival at Fountain Square most weekends. The area around the ballpark is great. I also enjoyed the Underground Railroad Museum. The downtown seems incredibly safe to me.

The constant activity on Fountain Square and in Washington Park is no accident. I read an article a few years ago about how they implemented this as a crime deterrent because it had been very effective in other cities.

foxfire123
10-19-2012, 12:17 AM
Think downtown Cincy is scary, try downtown Detroit.

My brother in law is a state trooper and he [while carrying] didn't want to hang around after the Tigers game. We even rolled through an area where we felt like Clark Griswold in East St Louis looking at all the plight.

East St Louis... That is one scary town... I don't even like driving by on the interstate, let alone go anywhere IN it.

camisadelgolf
10-19-2012, 02:47 AM
I don't think your theory is that far off the mark. Didn't UC buy the building that housed Sudsy Malone's?
Yeah, but that's kind of a different thing. Sudsy's only became available because of ownership's substance abuse problem. UC is making big plans for that entire strip. They're just trying to wait for more businesses on Short Vine to die out so they can make their move. The sad thing is that they're going to look like heroes when all the work is done even though they're the ones who are destroying the place in a roundabout way.

gilpdawg
10-19-2012, 03:44 AM
Yeah, but that's kind of a different thing. Sudsy's only became available because of ownership's substance abuse problem. UC is making big plans for that entire strip. They're just trying to wait for more businesses on Short Vine to die out so they can make their move. The sad thing is that they're going to look like heroes when all the work is done even though they're the ones who are destroying the place in a roundabout way.
As long as Bogart's is still kicking, they will have a tough time killing it off completely. And Live Nation has put quite a bit of money into Bogart's lately, so it will likely be around for awhile. They re-did the bar area recently and got a new sound system a couple of years ago.

Rojo
10-19-2012, 05:02 PM
Think downtown Cincy is scary, try downtown Detroit.

NYT article today about downtown Detroit's gentrification.

George Anderson
10-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Think downtown Cincy is scary, try downtown Detroit.

.

Pre GPS days my brother in law and I got lost in downtown Detroit just as it was turning dark. There was no place we felt safe going in to and asking for directions. I am not to proud to admit I was pretty damn scared.

Joseph
10-19-2012, 09:29 PM
Pre GPS days my brother in law and I got lost in downtown Detroit just as it was turning dark. There was no place we felt safe going in to and asking for directions. I am not to proud to admit I was pretty damn scared.

Worst part of it all was we HAD GPS and it kept sending us around in circles.

But yeah, two grown men were pretty uncomfortable there after dark.

George Anderson
10-19-2012, 09:52 PM
Worst part of it all was we HAD GPS and it kept sending us around in circles.

But yeah, two grown men were pretty uncomfortable there after dark.

Its been a while but I vaguely recall asking a couple guys for directions but I couldn't understand them.

It was like being in a 3rd world country.

mdccclxix
10-19-2012, 10:03 PM
The Cincy-Chicago comparisons are useless. Chicago is probably 85 years 'ahead' of Cincinnati, and I'm not joking. I don't know what could break right for Cincinnati to ever even get to the size of Chicago now, much less catch up within 85 years.

That said, it's good to dream big.

I really don't hear often enough, if ever, that the leadership under Mallory has completely turned the cities core in the right direction. I think Mallory has been an outstanding leader. Luken, not so much.

I like to think of the Reds as 'the' key to downtown's success. Given the synergy that occurred this year with the Banks and the great season they had, I think anyone could see my point. I'd even go so far as to say Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, and Johnny Cueto have as much say in the success of the city's core as any city council member. Beyond the 5-7 year window these players own, the city's core will have to rely on the Castinllini's guidance.

I really do. I think the Reds could do wonders for the city. A string of winning years that lasts a decade with a banner hung in there somewhere would create a perfect atmosphere to allow fans of all ages to visit, revisit, and perhaps move to a place that has tons of entertainment and could end up having some very intriguing and progressive areas to live. There is an alchemy that is taking place, and it's not a sure thing, but under Mallory's leadership the city has laid the cornerstones for a future that can experience growth and further the identity of the city.

Meanwhile, on the economic side, Cincinnati does need to grow it's own companies that can compete in the new global economy. Hopefully P&G can last in perpetuity to boot. Resources are precious in midwest cities. People have brought up education. I recognize that need. However, the resources spent over the last decade on improving the core and attracting new residents and visitors was vital to retaining a core that can perhaps someday drive a lot of economic wealth building.

westofyou
10-19-2012, 10:31 PM
Pre GPS days my brother in law and I got lost in downtown Detroit just as it was turning dark. There was no place we felt safe going in to and asking for directions. I am not to proud to admit I was pretty damn scared.

This has happened to me in Buffalo an Oakland, tis a drag

In country though I've had a different issue, once I slept in a police station because the one gas station in town did not open until 7 in morning and I needed gas to get home

RedTruck
10-20-2012, 03:28 AM
Speaking of scary places to be. On my roadtrip to my vacation guess where my car broke down? None other than Flint Michigan.

Place, was like a film set for some apoclayptic dooms days movie. Abandoned houses left and right, homeless people huddled against a barrel of fire. Crazy that a city in america can look like something out of a 3rd world country:(

That said, I agree with the praise of Mr. Mallory. I think this city has grown in strides the past few years, and is really awakening the folks from the suburbs.

I look at the banks.

I look at the casino

I look at the refurbished Washington Park

I look at the planned street car

I look at 3CDC and all the work they have been doing in OTR, and other parts of Cincinnati

Alot of things are happening, and just hope this momentum carries us forward into a brighter age of development. Because, like all of you, I love this city. I might one day move to another city (like Toronto) and I might love it for all the things that it does better than cincinnati, but regardless of all that, my HEART will always be in the streets of Cincinnati, for better or for worse.

fearofpopvol1
10-20-2012, 04:36 AM
Cincinnati is a major city there's no doubt. I think the OP was trying to touch on the size of the fan base and home game attendance.


Consider geographics. Cleveland attracts pretty much all of Ohio fan bases minus Cincinnati through the south side of Columbus. Indianapolis is only 2 hours away, and although there is a big chunk of the fan base there I'd say thar Indiana's fan market also shares with one of Chicago's two teams, Milwaukee, and/or Detroit. To the east you have Pennsylvania which is home to 2 professional traditioin-rich ballclubs in cities with huge populations. Kentucky supports the Reds (and Louisville bats) but we all know that Cats Basketball is the blood type of 95% of Kentuckians.

For what it is, I think Cincinnati is thriving as a city and is doing very well as a fan market for their sports. The Cyclones have won the Kelly Cup twice in the last 4 years and their games are GREAT to go watch. UC football has had success despite Brian Kelly's antics. The crosstown shootout is as fired up as it could be.

Look for Reds attendance to go up yet again next year. No one is looking more forward to opening day than Reds Nation.

Besides, in case you didn't know, Lonely Planet Travel Guide ranked Cincinnati USA as a top 3 travel destination. So let's go! "Book your stay at Cincinnati USA dot commmmm!!"

you all just sang that song in your head when you read it. :laugh:

I just wanted to clarify this. I would say Indianapolis is almost exclusively Reds/Cubs. You may see small factions of White Sox/Cardinals fans, but Tigers fans are rare. In the early 2000s, especially after the Cubs had a run, I would say Reds fans were diminishing. Even though Indy has always gotten WLW, no games were televised (not even nationally because the Reds stunk and weren't featured) and even if you wanted to see games, they were blacked out by all the available packages. Cubs games, by contrast, were still televised pretty frequently on WGN and as mentioned previously, the Cubs were a very good team. It was depressing in 2003. I had never seen so many Cubs come out of the woodwork as I had then and they were annoying.

In either 2006 or 2007, Fox Sports Indiana began televising most Reds games, which has been a huge boost, while WGN televises fewer Cubs games. It also doesn't hurt that the Reds are now good and the Cubs are lousy. Even the local Indianapolis Sports Radio shows now talk about the Reds in their commentary. I'd guess the majority of fans in Indy are now Reds fans, with Cubs fans being secondary.

fearofpopvol1
10-20-2012, 04:55 AM
As for the original question posed in this thread, I am by no means a Cincinnati expert. I was born in Cincinnati and my parents were born and raised, but I didn't live there for a significant part of my life. However, I have visited there a lot ever since my childhood. However, my visits were somewhat sheltered I would say until I was able to drive.

I can remember many moons ago driving through OTR and it being 1 of the scariest places I had ever seen, still to this day. I didn't even get out of the car and I could see drug deals going down in plain daylight. From what some have said here, that has been cleared up? At least to some degree?

I used to drive sometimes from Indy to Cincinnati to go to shows at Bogarts as well. That venue has always gotten great shows. I remember having a ticket to a show I bought in advance and it was during the race riots and the show being cancelled! I wouldn't say the UC campus was as scary as OTR, but I definitely felt like I had to be alert. But it seemingly improved a bit over the years up until the time I left Indianapolis. But now it sounds like it may be worse?

Downtown has come leaps and bounds from what it used to be. I used to be a bit worried about going downtown to games, but I think the way they've transformed down there has been awesome.

I'm sure there are still some rough areas and scary parts, but I guess I haven't had any reason to go there, unless Vine near UC counts. It's not a perfect city and there's still work to do, but it has come a long way over the last decade or two.

camisadelgolf
10-20-2012, 05:12 AM
I don't have data to back this up, but I do 90+% of my business around OtR, Clifton, CUF, and Northside. People say OtR has come a long way, which is both true and false. Certain sections of OtR have been cleaned up significantly, but others are no different than they were a decade ago. The area around Bogart's--Corryville (not Clifton)--has been getting worse over the years, but it might have hit a floor as far as how "bad" or "unsafe" it is.

Caveat Emperor
10-22-2012, 03:47 PM
OtR has been a slow burn, no doubt about that. However, the progress in just the last few years has been tremendous.

I do get the feeling, and I'm not saying this just as a Cincinnati homer, that they're about to hit a tipping point and the neighborhood is really going to start changing quickly. If I had the money, I'd have invested down there.

TeamCasey
10-23-2012, 01:31 PM
It's a crime report that was sent to every UC employee. So, no, I don't have a link to emails sent to me years ago.


It may look similar to this? http://www.uc.edu/publicsafety/police/CrimeStatistics.html

Yachtzee
10-23-2012, 02:41 PM
I think growth in Ohio in general has been hampered by having to deal with a lot of the consequences of industrialization in the first half of the 20th century, which raised the cost of doing business in the state. As much as people want to blame jobs going overseas, I think we've seen a lot of companies move out of state to places with lower taxes and better weather. That being said, I think eventually companies and people are going to have to look toward states like Ohio, where we have abundant natural resources, especially fresh water, and a relatively low cost of living. There were reasons why Ohio and the Midwest in general were the center of economic development in the US for much of its history. I think companies and people have forgotten those reasons as they've rushed to move to warmer climates.

Rojo
10-23-2012, 03:07 PM
There were reasons why Ohio and the Midwest in general were the center of economic development in the US for much of its history.

The Ohio River, part of a great inland transportation system that flowed through New Orleans and onto the rest of the world.

It became less important after the St. Lawrence opened. Same thing happened to a lot of small towns on the Erie Canal.

Yachtzee
10-23-2012, 03:56 PM
The Ohio River, part of a great inland transportation system that flowed through New Orleans and onto the rest of the world.

It became less important after the St. Lawrence opened. Same thing happened to a lot of small towns on the Erie Canal.

It was more than just transportation. The Great Lakes region had and still has abundant land, fresh water, low energy costs and a central location that, regardless of mode of transport, keeps costs down. On the other hand, if you look at the South and Southwest, they lack at least one of those components, the most striking being water. Look at some of the water supplies for major cities in the South and Southwest and you'll find a shocking decrease in available fresh water. My family used to take vacations to Lake Lanier in Georgia in the '80s, which also happens to be the main water supply for Atlanta. In recent years, the lake has seen record lows, with Florida and Alabama filing suit against Georgia to keep them from drawing so much water out to supply Atlanta. Some of the issues are drought related, but a lot of it is overdevelopment. Or look at the problems with Lake Mead and the Colorado River. Nevada, Arizona and California draw so much water out that Lake Mead could be empty in a decade. The Colorado River stopped making it to the sea generations ago. Yet short sighted people keep building and moving there. I saw a show on the History Channel where they predicted that Las Vegas could be a ghost town by 2050 because there won't be any water left for drinking or Hydroelectric power.

Chip R
10-23-2012, 04:36 PM
I saw a show on the History Channel where they predicted that Las Vegas could be a ghost town by 2050 because there won't be any water left for drinking or Hydroelectric power.

I wonder if you place a wager in Vegas about that, if it happens will you be able to cash in? ;)

dougdirt
11-30-2012, 06:00 PM
While I haven't heard the story yet, the news is on in the other room and apparently UC was named one of the most dangerous schools in the country.

camisadelgolf
11-30-2012, 06:06 PM
UC was ranked the 13th-most dangerous campus. I haven't read the article yet, but I'll link it if I come across it again.

camisadelgolf
12-01-2012, 04:33 AM
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/Report-UC-ranked-13th-most-dangerous-campus/-/13549970/17604354/-/sfldvgz/-/index.html?absolute=true

dougdirt
12-01-2012, 10:12 PM
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/Report-UC-ranked-13th-most-dangerous-campus/-/13549970/17604354/-/sfldvgz/-/index.html?absolute=true

Thanks. I was looking for it online somewhere when I heard about it, but couldn't find anything.