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MrRedLegger
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
Per ESPN:


Reds agree with manager Dusty Baker on 2-year contract extension through 2014 season

I like the move. Dusty gets the chance to finish what he's started. He's brought the team this far and I think it's his best shot for a WS title.

Thoughts?

RedTruck
10-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Per ESPN:



I like the move. Dusty gets the chance to finish what he's started. He's brought the team this far and I think it's his best shot for a WS title.

Thoughts?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3rvq5gIEz1r3i0u8.gif

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 02:39 PM
Per ESPN:



I like the move. Dusty gets the chance to finish what he's started. He's brought the team this far and I think it's his best shot for a WS title.

Thoughts?

Yea it's not a bad deal and he could be fired next year if the team imploded and didn't make the playoffs. And anyone blaming Baker for anything that went on in the playoffs continues to be a hater. Sick of you guys making a solid manager a scapegoat when our players did not step up in the big moments and deliver in the post season and that includes the great Joey Votto. And since everyone wants to ride Dusty when he continues to play Stubbs, he might not of hit for average in the 5 playoff games but he had a double, a triple, a RBI, and scored 4 of our 24 runs. That's 17% of our runs in that series. People who continue to call out Dusty need to acknowledge when they are wrong as well but they won't.

ukwazoo
10-15-2012, 02:43 PM
<------- hater. Call me whatever you want, but Dusty deserves plenty of blame for the playoffs. At least he won't be able to roll Rolen out there in the playoffs anymore.

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 02:45 PM
<------- hater. Call me whatever you want, but Dusty deserves plenty of blame for the playoffs. At least he won't be able to roll Rolen out there in the playoffs anymore.

Does he deserve blame for the Reds not being able to do anything with the tying run coming to the plate for 4 straight innings? Was he supposed to do anything about the errors in the infield that potentially cost us a game? Was he supposed to do anything about Votto not coming up with any clutch hits the entire series? Was he supposed to do anything about Mat Latos losing his concentration for a few batters because he got annoyed at the balls and strikes being called in game 5? Is it his fault Cueto our ACE, our best pitcher got hurt 7 pitches into his start in game 1? Damn can still add to this... Was he supposed to run out from the dugout and tackle Brandon Phillips on what turned out to be a rookie base running error in what should have been a sweep?

Tell me what was a man sitting in the dugout, a manager of one of the best regular season teams this year supposed to do about all of that? But no you'll just point at one or two plays and totally throw the blame on Dusty completely forgetting that hindsight is 20/20 and that taking a results oriented approach is ignorant.

Mastodon
10-15-2012, 02:47 PM
I don't see how the manager can escape a good chunk of the blame for a post season collapse, but I for this season I guess keeping Baker is the right call. Unless there is a sure fire candidate for his replacement who can undoubtedly come in and do better immediately I don't think you give up on Baker just yet. This season is his last chance imo. Anything short of the NLCS is a failure.

KYRedLeg
10-15-2012, 02:48 PM
Take away his favorite toys (Rolen, Stubbs), and we'll talk.

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 02:50 PM
Take away his favorite toys (Rolen, Stubbs), and we'll talk.

Stubbs had nothing to do with us losing that series. Stubbs scored 17% of our runs in that series. Stats are so awesome.

ukwazoo
10-15-2012, 02:52 PM
Stubbs had nothing to do with us losing that series. Stubbs scored 17% of our runs in that series. Stats are so awesome.

Not sure if serious

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 02:54 PM
Not sure if serious

Did he score 17% of our runs in the series, yes or no? Stubbs was not the problem here vs the Giants. I bring facts and logic you bring scraps and emotionally driven opinions. Just read what I wrote above and try to explain how all of those things are Mr. Dusty Baker's fault.

Bob Sheed
10-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Good move, although health could be a concern.

KYRedLeg
10-15-2012, 02:55 PM
Stubbs had nothing to do with us losing that series. Stubbs scored 17% of our runs in that series. Stats are so awesome.

Well, with an astounding sample size of five games, how could I possibly argue? :rolleyes:

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Well, with an astounding sample size of five games, how could I possibly argue? :rolleyes:

A lot of people probably including yourself didn't want Stubbs playing the series, much less any this season, yet he produced at the plate with extra base hits and provided runs vs the Giants. Did he not?

He had more RBI, runs, extra base hits and less K's than Votto in the series. Read that again please! People want to hate on Stubbs and hate on Dusty, where is the hate for our best player that didn't step up? It needs to be shared and I'm tired of Dusty always being the scapegoat. I don't care who is on your team but in the playoffs if your best players don't step up then you are not going to last long in the playoffs. Votto deserves more blame than Baker and lets not use the knee as an excuse because we all know Joey wouldn't.

Stray
10-15-2012, 02:59 PM
I like the move. We're definitely heading in the right direction and the players play hard for him.

RedTruck
10-15-2012, 03:00 PM
I like the move. We're definitely heading in the right direction and the players play hard for him.

Not hard in the playoffs apperantly:laugh:

Stray
10-15-2012, 03:01 PM
Not hard in the playoffs apperantly:laugh:

Nah they played hard in the playoffs. I loved the fight they showed down to the very last out. We just got beat.

Injuries and lack of clutch hits are why we lost.

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 03:01 PM
I like the move. We're definitely heading in the right direction and the players play hard for him.

This is a good point too. The players love him. It would be a very risky move to fire Dusty and bring another guy in, especially off this season even if it ended in a very disappointing manner. That is the type of move that wouldn't sit well with some players and we could be looking at one of those seasons where the chemistry is completely gone and there are some very unhappy players in the locker room. It's a very fine line. It's easier to add a few players to the mix and try again next year than it is to fire Dusty and try a sort of start from scratch approach.

Maker_84
10-15-2012, 03:02 PM
Can we at this least fire Brook Jacoby? Its his fault the most the Reds failed

ukwazoo
10-15-2012, 03:02 PM
Stubbs hit .211 in the series. Yeah, he was right as rain.

Stray
10-15-2012, 03:03 PM
Stubbs hit .211 in the series. Yeah, he was right as rain.

He was also at the bottom of the order and not at the plate in very many big situations. He's not even in the top 5 of reasons we lost in the NLDS.

MrRedLegger
10-15-2012, 03:03 PM
I have tried many times to see it from another perspective, from a Dusty Hater's point of view and I still don't get it. It seems as if it's purely subjective and intangible arguments. When I say intangible I mean there is no way to prove the argument. (i.e. one lineup being better than another, how much/little to use a pitcher, etc.)

I very much support Dusty Baker. I think his accomplishments with this team speak for themselves. 2 Division titles after a 15 year drought. Reds had an MVP during his tenure. 92 and 97 win seasons. Might manager of the year this year. And although an intangible, the boys love playing for him. He's got this team playing as one unit, and we all saw the fight in game 5. That, above all else, is priceless in the clubhouse.

Even when we took 2 in San Fran, Giants fans still gave him more respect than what he gets from his own fan base.

ukwazoo
10-15-2012, 03:04 PM
On the plus side, though Stubbs DID have a OBP of .211 and steal zero bases. I wish he could play more.

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Stubbs hit .211 in the series. Yeah, he was right as rain.

He also scored every time he got on base so he obviously didn't need to steal. Also you aren't going to steal a base when half of your hits are extra base hits. Like I said 17% of our runs. We know Stubbs will never hit for average but he wasn't going up there and completely whiffing either the way he usually does. He out produced Votto outside of AVG for christ sake in the 8 hole! That is unacceptable from Joey. Blaming Stubbs your 8 hitter for anything that went on in that series when he contributed more than your best player is insane.

Stray
10-15-2012, 03:06 PM
I have tried many times to see it from another perspective, from a Dusty Hater's point of view and I still don't get it. It seems as if it's purely subjective and intangible arguments. When I say intangible I mean there is no way to prove the argument. (i.e. one lineup being better than another, how much/little to use a pitcher, etc.)

I very much support Dusty Baker. I think his accomplishments with this team speak for themselves. 2 Division titles after a 15 year drought. Reds had an MVP during his tenure. 92 and 97 win seasons. Might manager of the year this year. And although an intangible, the boys love playing for him. He's got this team playing as one unit, and we all saw the fight in game 5. That, above all else, is priceless in the clubhouse.

Even when we took 2 in San Fran, Giants fans still gave him more respect than what he gets from his own fan base.

To some fans every loss is because of Dusty and every win is in spite of him. It's just a warped way some people look at it.

JayBruceFan
10-15-2012, 03:07 PM
Joey wasn't exactly Joey during the playoffs so comparing his production to Stubbs' is a bit of a reach

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 03:08 PM
Joey wasn't exactly Joey during the playoffs so comparing his production to Stubbs' is a bit of a reach

No you can't make excuses like that. Joey wouldn't do it, Joey still hit for a great average in that series too but he whiffed on every clutch opportunity he had. Every single one. You can't have that out of your best player.

Maker_84
10-15-2012, 03:13 PM
No you can't make excuses like that. Joey wouldn't do it, Joey still hit for a great average in that series too but he whiffed on every clutch opportunity he had. Every single one. You can't have that out of your best player.

Cant believe im agreeing with u but i am. Ill place the blame on Votto for the offense before Stubbs. Stubbs had a pretty good series for him, this is why i think Votto needs more days off next season to save him for when it really matters

PumpFak3First
10-15-2012, 03:17 PM
Cant believe im agreeing with u but i am. Ill place the blame on Votto for the offense before Stubbs. Stubbs had a pretty good series for him, this is why i think Votto needs more days off next season to save him for when it really matters

It was bound to happen. Pain brings us together :laugh:

MrRedLegger
10-15-2012, 03:21 PM
I know we are all bitter about the playoffs. But without pointing a finger at someone explaining why we lost that series, let's hear opinions of Dusty Baker's extension...

BigRedVA
10-15-2012, 03:49 PM
Well, we better hope to out-talent everyone because we won't out manage them. :(

Larkin88
10-15-2012, 03:56 PM
I know we are all bitter about the playoffs. But without pointing a finger at someone explaining why we lost that series, let's hear opinions of Dusty Baker's extension...

I could take or leave the extension in a vacuum. I do like Dusty quite a bit. I do tend to forgive him for lineup or game-time decisions throughout the year more than some on here. But, while it might be sheer coincidence, his record in elimination games DOES scare me a bit.

I don't know if that's a KPI for being able to manage must-win games, but it's tough not to notice when it starts becoming a 10% winning percentage in those situations.

More than anything, I'm disappointed that this organizationally leads me to believe that Jacoby will also be back. And while it would be unfair of me to acknowledge some of the instances where Jacoby has seemingly been a big piece in a player turning it around or ending a slump, I don't really like how the team approaches offense as a whole.

Is part of that improving the parts and pieces (i.e. table setters, clean-up hitters cleaning up, etc.)? Probably. But I'd much rather have a team of guys trying to grind out at-bats and get on base rather than gunning for moonshots because we play in a bandbox.

Probably a hypocrite for being a little more forgiving to Dusty than I am for Jacoby. But since about mid-2011, we have been a pretty average if not poor offensive club. There's a whole lot of talent on the roster, so I don't know who you lay the blame to there.

Mutaman
10-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Ok now let's move on. Get a left handed hitting centerfielder who can platoon with Stubbs. Resign Ludwick. Get two left handed hitting utility men who can replace Miguel and Valdez. Figure out what to do with Chapman and Madson.

MrRedLegger
10-15-2012, 04:26 PM
I agree that Jacoby, although not a "problem" per se, is neither an asset as well. Or at least the team's offensive results reflect that.

I've also noticed a double standard among opinions. And that is that the playoffs:
1. are a crapshoot
2. rely a whole lot on the manager

Seems difficult for both to be true.

The_Mudshark
10-15-2012, 04:40 PM
Nobody wanted a piece of this?

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_seasonticket/files/2012/04/guillenmia.jpg

DocRed
10-15-2012, 04:50 PM
Just get rid of Stubbs please so he doesn't have the ability to start a .200 hitter everyday.

Mutaman
10-15-2012, 05:13 PM
WFAN's Mike Francesa always says that the mark of an unsophisticated baseball fan is to exaggerate the importance of the hitting coach. Replacing Jacoby is meaningless.

This team hit .266 against southpaws (6th in league) and .248 against right handers (12th in league). We don't need a new hitting coach, we need more left handed hitters. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

WDE
10-15-2012, 05:15 PM
Crap

Red Raindog
10-15-2012, 06:21 PM
I assumed that Baker would be back if he wanted it -- ownership seems captivated by him and the Reds' record by itself is decent since he came on board but I will always feel the record should have been better than what we got this year.

Red Raindog
10-15-2012, 06:34 PM
Does he deserve blame for the Reds not being able to do anything with the tying run coming to the plate for 4 straight innings? Was he supposed to do anything about the errors in the infield that potentially cost us a game? Was he supposed to do anything about Votto not coming up with any clutch hits the entire series? Was he supposed to do anything about Mat Latos losing his concentration for a few batters because he got annoyed at the balls and strikes being called in game 5? Is it his fault Cueto our ACE, our best pitcher got hurt 7 pitches into his start in game 1? Damn can still add to this... Was he supposed to run out from the dugout and tackle Brandon Phillips on what turned out to be a rookie base running error in what should have been a sweep?

Tell me what was a man sitting in the dugout, a manager of one of the best regular season teams this year supposed to do about all of that? But no you'll just point at one or two plays and totally throw the blame on Dusty completely forgetting that hindsight is 20/20 and that taking a results oriented approach is ignorant.

I'm still stunned that in the 10th inning of the third game Baker did not walk super speedy Arias with 1st base open - the pitcher up next & the only bench option the back up catcher.

This sets up a force at any base -- puts possibly the slowest runner at the plate and removes Romo from the game --- I'm not saying the Reds would have scored later to win the game but the move looked obvious to me at the time -- I was yelling at the TV for him to do it.

Baker starting the runners on 1st & 2nd while Hanny was at a full count with a guy that recorded 193 K's on the mound obviously was a huge mistake but I posted the question asking if anyone liked the idea on this forum before Baker made the call --- I won't call that blunder - certainly in light of the fact that Hanny had already had a GIDP in the game -- but it hurt. I'll give the pass on that but others may not.

malcontent
10-15-2012, 06:40 PM
<------- hater. Call me whatever you want, but Dusty deserves plenty of blame for the playoffs. At least he won't be able to roll Rolen out there in the playoffs anymore.
Agreed.

I don't blame him too much for the Hanigan cluster, so long as Hanigan is actually the one who screwed up.

I blame him for pulling Leake and Latos late, as well as losing Paul to Affeldt in Game 5 (instead of PHing Paul against Cain, where he had a chance).

Seriously, a Little League manager doesn't make that mistake.

malcontent
10-15-2012, 06:42 PM
WFAN's Mike Francesa always says that the mark of an unsophisticated baseball fan is to exaggerate the importance of the hitting coach. Replacing Jacoby is meaningless.

This team hit .266 against southpaws (6th in league) and .248 against right handers (12th in league). We don't need a new hitting coach, we need more left handed hitters. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
It isn't, except for Jocketty and presumably, Baker.

texasdave
10-15-2012, 06:50 PM
Per ESPN:



I like the move. Dusty gets the chance to finish what he's started. He's brought the team this far and I think it's his best shot for a WS title.

Thoughts?

I am not concerned in the least what Dusty's best shot for a WS title is. I am concerned about what the Cincinnati Reds' best shot is. I don't think this 2-year contract moved the Reds any closer. Unfortunately.

texasdave
10-15-2012, 06:54 PM
I like the move. We're definitely heading in the right direction and the players play hard for him.

I used to feel this way to an extent. I thought it was a Baker strong point that the players played hard for him. But after subscribing to MLB.TV and watching numerous games involving teams in playoff contention, I find that players playing hard is the default position. That would mean the players playing hard for Dusty is not really much of a plus. You can find an exception here and there. Think Valentine. But that is the exception rather than the rule.

Do you feel the Reds played any harder than the Giants? I don't. Do you feel that Bochy outmanaged Baker? Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

malcontent
10-15-2012, 07:10 PM
I used to feel this way to an extent. I thought it was a Baker strong point that the players played hard for him. But after subscribing to MLB.TV and watching numerous games involving teams in playoff contention, I find that players playing hard is the default position. That would mean the players playing hard for Dusty is not really much of a plus. You can find an exception here and there. Think Valentine. But that is the exception rather than the rule.
Agreed. Personally, I question whether players stating how much they love the guy is even a good thing.

They're comfortable with him. Wonderful.

redsrolen
10-15-2012, 07:31 PM
I used to feel this way to an extent. I thought it was a Baker strong point that the players played hard for him. But after subscribing to MLB.TV and watching numerous games involving teams in playoff contention, I find that players playing hard is the default position. That would mean the players playing hard for Dusty is not really much of a plus. You can find an exception here and there. Think Valentine. But that is the exception rather than the rule.

I have to agree with you TD about the players playing hard for him...They better playing hard for any 'skipper'...Believe it or not I've always had a little concern with Joey being with a hard nosed mgr...I love Joey & his drive to be great, I believe, is at an all time high...but I don't think he or Brandon would do well with the likes of a 'LaRussa' type...
I have no real axe to grind with Dusty...in fact I think he got tougher toward the end of the season...Having read everything he said about 'Stubbs' that love affair was over...Plus, I've watched all these mgrs in the post season & I'm not impressed...They all have made mistakes with leaving pitchers in too long...not so much Girardi...his hitters just suck...
I have a big problem with using Leake, as far as I'm concerned they just threw that game in the toilet & you just don't do that in the Playoffs...Just standing there looking at Latos, a young pitcher with problems controlling his emotions, that he had obviously lost & Buster do up at GAPB....Are you flippin' kidding me?? Put about half of that on Price not stepping up....To me those moves are unforgivable...But to think there is a 'golden mgr' out there is a joke...

Watching MLB last night, talking about Matheny, a first timer, while I don't think is great...they talked about him pulling pitchers like LaRussa & that might be the diff in the Cards...If you think Dusty is hated you should read how the fans feel about Leland & the Nats mgr....
So whats the answer...Dusty...no...but who is?? Trust me, you'll hate him too....:(

malcontent
10-15-2012, 07:37 PM
Nobody wanted a piece of this?

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_seasonticket/files/2012/04/guillenmia.jpg
Well, when you put it that way...sure.

EMAW
10-15-2012, 07:37 PM
AWESOME!!!!!

Maker_84
10-15-2012, 07:50 PM
Well, we better hope to out-talent everyone because we won't out manage them. :(

sounds just like Ohio State basketball

Mutaman
10-15-2012, 11:23 PM
It isn't, except for Jocketty and presumably, Baker.

Yes it is- look at post #39, yet another guy complaining because they didn't walk the weak hitting right handed batter to get to the switch hitting Sanchez, against the right handed Broxton. Now I realize that this is just after the fact second guessing but it just shows how little attention fans pay to the left/righty deal, which is the name of the game.

Jonster
10-15-2012, 11:39 PM
I believe in the grand scheme of things, the Reds could do a lot worse than Dusty Baker at the helm.

As a Giants fan, I can absolute affirm that Baker is not without his faults; namely, a deeply rooted loyalty to his players that translates into entirely too much rope for his starting pitchers. There is definitely a fine line between having your guy's back, letting him learn how to work his way out of a jam... And not knowing when to give somebody the hook. Amidst Games 4 and 5 of the NLDS, I got crazy de ja vu watching Baker as he allowed both Mike Leake and Mat Latos to shoot themselves in the foot. I can only imagine - if it was obvious to us in the Bay that Latos was disturbed by the shaky ball called to Gregor Blanco - that everyone in the Red's Nation knew it was time to make a change before the whole thing got out of hand. Unfortunately for the Reds, Dusty was in classic form and waited until Buster Posey ran into one before lifting Latos in typical too-little-too-late fashion.

However, Dusty's short-comings when it comes to holding and folding his pitchers cannot overrule the rest of his managerial prowess.

To my mind, Dusty Baker is a phenomenal hitter's manager; every team he manages seems to elevate to amongst the league's most feared lineups. Baker knows how to protect his cleanup hitter - a quality that Bruce Bochy doesn't share; the Giants were hitting Angel Pagan 5th for far too long midseason and I'm sure you folks all noticed Posey hitting without men on base all through the series. Baker assembles lineups like a true maestro; installing Brandon Phillips at the top of the order to provide thump right from the get-go, as he did with Soriano in Chicago and even Rich Aurillia in SF. Speedy, OBP guys at the top is the norm, but Baker is capable of defying tradition with marked success - how many managers can convince a home run hitter to buy into the idea of being a team's initiator?

It's also worth noting that Baker got the best season out of Ryan Ludwick since 2008. When I watched him frequently in the NL West playing for SD, he looked like he was done. In the NLDS, he looked damn near unstoppable. It was a monstrous turn-around and you can't deny that Baker surely had a hand in his success. Scott Rolen is another veteran that looked burnt out on other squads before Baker gave him second life.

Anyways, I suppose the bottom line is that the Reds are one of the NL's 2 most dangerous offensive lineups and that's a title they've earned under Baker. To me, he fits the bill for what Cincinatti is trying to do and despite a disheartening post-season record that's been marked by tremendously inspirational comebacks by opposing squads, Baker is far from incompetent and if he's healthy, he's an asset to any team.

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 12:03 AM
As a Giants fan, I can absolute affirm that Baker is not without his faults; namely, a deeply rooted loyalty to his players that translates into entirely too much rope for his starting pitchers.

Except everybody is complaining that he took Homer out too early in game 3.

Jonster
10-16-2012, 12:08 AM
Except everybody is complaining that he took Homer out too early in game 3.

Yeah, that was a huge break. Homer Bailey was killing it in game 3.

Jonster
10-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Again, it goes back to Dusty not knowing when to fold em... or when to hold em. The Reds would be infinitely safer is Baker gave all pitching sub duties to Price. I always felt like that's what he should have done with Raggetti in SF.

Redsfansince72
10-16-2012, 12:35 AM
I just Wish the Reds would get a different Hitting coach.. For 5 years this team has often not hit in the clutch. A different set of ears and hitting approach would do wonders..

Krawhitham
10-16-2012, 12:42 AM
Stubbs had nothing to do with us losing hat series. Stubbs scored 17% of our runs in that series. Stats are so awesome.

I do not care how many runs he score he had a .211 OBP. He had the lowest OBP of any starter. Stats are so awesome.

Mutaman
10-16-2012, 01:17 AM
Again, it goes back to Dusty not knowing when to fold em... or when to hold em. The Reds would be infinitely safer is Baker gave all pitching sub duties to Price. I always felt like that's what he should have done with Raggetti in SF.

How do you know he hasn't?

Stray
10-16-2012, 02:00 AM
I used to feel this way to an extent. I thought it was a Baker strong point that the players played hard for him. But after subscribing to MLB.TV and watching numerous games involving teams in playoff contention, I find that players playing hard is the default position. That would mean the players playing hard for Dusty is not really much of a plus. You can find an exception here and there. Think Valentine. But that is the exception rather than the rule.

Do you feel the Reds played any harder than the Giants? I don't. Do you feel that Bochy outmanaged Baker? Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I agree mostly. Teams in playoff contention aren't usually changing managers though, for good reason. The guys that are there are doing a good job.

I think Bochy outmanaged Dusty really bad in game 4. Actually, his use of the bullpen in game 4 was perfection...doesn't get any better. I thought Dusty managed the game of his life in game 1 in a really tough situation. Out of the others nothing really jumps out at me.

When you look at games 3 and 5 they could have gone either way. Dusty might have pulled Homer too early, but the way that game was going we needed offense. Bochy also had a quick hook with his starters, even when they were pitching well. I don't think he left Latos in too long either...in the situation I think we needed to trust Latos to get out of that. I would have liked a coaching visit to the mound though.

Overall I think Dusty and Bochy both put their teams in great situations to win the series, the Giants players just got it done.

Jonster
10-16-2012, 02:53 AM
How do you know he hasn't?

I suppose I don't for sure... I'm making a bit of an assumption based on the fact that Baker-managed teams always seem to have issues with when their pitchers are getting pulled, be it too early or too soon.

Red Raindog
10-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Yes it is- look at post #39, yet another guy complaining because they didn't walk the weak hitting right handed batter to get to the switch hitting Sanchez, against the right handed Broxton. Now I realize that this is just after the fact second guessing but it just shows how little attention fans pay to the left/righty deal, which is the name of the game.

how did your idea work out?

Maldez
10-16-2012, 08:12 AM
Does he deserve blame for the Reds not being able to do anything with the tying run coming to the plate for 4 straight innings? Was he supposed to do anything about the errors in the infield that potentially cost us a game? Was he supposed to do anything about Votto not coming up with any clutch hits the entire series? Was he supposed to do anything about Mat Latos losing his concentration for a few batters because he got annoyed at the balls and strikes being called in game 5? Is it his fault Cueto our ACE, our best pitcher got hurt 7 pitches into his start in game 1? Damn can still add to this... Was he supposed to run out from the dugout and tackle Brandon Phillips on what turned out to be a rookie base running error in what should have been a sweep?

Tell me what was a man sitting in the dugout, a manager of one of the best regular season teams this year supposed to do about all of that? But no you'll just point at one or two plays and totally throw the blame on Dusty completely forgetting that hindsight is 20/20 and that taking a results oriented approach is ignorant.


Dusty-bashers choose to ignore the 99 games the team won this year, including two on the road in the playoffs at SF. Those mean nothing. But those three losses in Cincy...ah, those mean everything.

You'll never convince some people that getting swept by SF wasn't Dusty's fault, so the rest of us should just stop the wear and tear on our keyboards.

EMAW
10-16-2012, 08:33 AM
Dusty-bashers choose to ignore the 99 games the team won this year, including two on the road in the playoffs at SF. Those mean nothing. But those three losses in Cincy...ah, those mean everything.

You'll never convince some people that getting swept by SF wasn't Dusty's fault, so the rest of us should just stop the wear and tear on our keyboards.

Outstanding post

TSJ55
10-16-2012, 09:26 AM
I have a healthy distaste for Toothpick and was disappointed to see him re-sign, but no rational person who knows anything about baseball can place the blame soley on him. The players gagged in monumental fashion and it was sickening to watch. That being said, DB's playoff record is not an aberration either. He has a history of not being able to close and that's unacceptable. After the regular season the Reds had this year, getting beat like they did is nothing short of a total team failure.

MrRedLegger
10-16-2012, 09:56 AM
I think total post season success is a monkey on his back rather than something he'll never achieve. There are many greats who have never won a championship and teams much worse than the Reds who have. Call it Dusty ball, but it almost worked this year. Who knows what could have been had Cueto not been hurt. We didn't get steamrolled like we did against the Phillies, instead it came down to the 270th out of the NLDS to decide who's going to the next round, and we almost came through.

dubc47834
10-16-2012, 10:02 AM
I think total post season success is a monkey on his back rather than something he'll never achieve. There are many greats who have never won a championship and teams much worse than the Reds who have. Call it Dusty ball, but it almost worked this year. Who knows what could have been had Cueto not been hurt. We didn't get steamrolled like we did against the Phillies, instead it came down to the 270th out of the NLDS to decide who's going to the next round, and we almost came through.

I like the optimism!!!

GO REDS!!!

TSJ55
10-16-2012, 10:17 AM
I think total post season success is a monkey on his back rather than something he'll never achieve. There are many greats who have never won a championship and teams much worse than the Reds who have. Call it Dusty ball, but it almost worked this year. Who knows what could have been had Cueto not been hurt. We didn't get steamrolled like we did against the Phillies, instead it came down to the 270th out of the NLDS to decide who's going to the next round, and we almost came through.

I'm no pessimist but also don't deal in "could haves" and "almosts". I almost broke 80 on the golf course yesterday but in reality I made double bogey on 18 and shot 81. I could have broken 80 on several occasions this year but I didn't make the putts I needed to make.

"Do or do not. There is no try." - I heard that somewhere.

MrRedLegger
10-16-2012, 11:08 AM
Dusty batted Stubbs late in the order, had Latos pitch twice, moved Phillips to leadoff, etc. His lineup scored 9 runs on the road during a shutout, which I believe is the norm and the lack of runs in game 3 was the fluke. Baker "did" what some were losing sleep over but it still didn't please.

He also went with experience on the mound in Bronson in game 2 and threw a red hot Bailey in game 3. I don't have enough hard drive space to assemble all posts about how so many people thought those moves would be our demise. Dusty's decisions bear fruits as well. Too much emphasis was put on what didn't happen and not enough credit was given to what did happen.

Castellini, the brothers Wiliams, and Walt have a great resume considering they've worked together for years. Recently what comes to mind are landing Chapman, acquiring Latos and Broxton, signing Ludwick, signing Votto, Phillips, and Bruce long term are all successes that were at one point second guessed. Although Walt might not have as big of an influence in the staffing department as the others, at what point will people start trusting the executive decisions, and in this case, keeping the current manager?

bounty37h
10-16-2012, 11:15 AM
I'm fine with it, cant think of who would be better here at this point that is available.

TSJ55
10-16-2012, 11:26 AM
Dusty batted Stubbs late in the order, had Latos pitch twice, moved Phillips to leadoff, etc. His lineup scored 9 runs on the road during a shutout, which I believe is the norm and the lack of runs in game 3 was the fluke. Baker "did" what some were losing sleep over but it still didn't please.

He also went with experience on the mound in Bronson in game 2 and threw a red hot Bailey in game 3. I don't have enough hard drive space to assemble all posts about how so many people thought those moves would be our demise. Dusty's decisions bear fruits as well. Too much emphasis was put on what didn't happen and not enough credit was given to what did happen.

Castellini, the brothers Wiliams, and Walt have a great resume considering they've worked together for years. Recently what comes to mind are landing Chapman, acquiring Latos and Broxton, signing Ludwick, signing Votto, Phillips, and Bruce long term are all successes that were at one point second guessed. Although Walt might not have as big of an influence in the staffing department as the others, at what point will people start trusting the executive decisions, and in this case, keeping the current manager?

When they fail to fail and not before.

Everything else in this post is moot when the team gets the throat the way they did. This is professional sports and winning is the only thing that matters.

webbbj
10-16-2012, 01:01 PM
im fine with it. I would just like more clarity of his future before the 2014 season starts. It would be nice when that season comes he says this will be his last go around in the big leagues.

Dusty walks out on his terms and there is no guess work of if he should go or stay. It would let the incumbent manager walkin to a positive siuation.

If the reds let dusty walk i do worry how that would affect the players b/c they do love him alot.

Rock of Truth
10-16-2012, 01:08 PM
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. See 2012 Boston Red Sox

TSJ55
10-16-2012, 02:12 PM
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. See 2012 Boston Red Sox

Why does there have to be a devil at all? The 2013 Red Sox may get that opportunity since they weren't afraid to admit that Bobby V. was the wrong choice and go a different direction.

If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.

If just making the playoffs is the ultimate goal, then DB is your guy. If you want to actually win something, he's had his chance(s).

MrRedLegger
10-16-2012, 02:26 PM
Ron Washington has a very similar resume to Dusty Baker, "managing style" aside:

2 WS appearances to Dusty's 1
.535 Winning % to Dutsy's .525 (And Dusty managed the Cubs for 4 years)
Both have been given 2 year contract extensions through 2014
Neither have won a World Series
Dusty has managed in over 3x as many games, however.

Each manager and his respective team had a heartbreaking season, feeling like they were knocked out way too early. One could argue that Ron Washington "fails" as a manager because his teams can't win the big one, be he receives virtually no angst compared to what Dusty gets. In fact, he's gotten nothing but praise. Fingers are pointed at Hamilton cooling off, the Team "choking" to Oakland and Baltimore, etc.

Mastodon
10-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Well I guess it doesn't matter what anyone thinks now. As long as Dusty is in a Reds uniform I'll hope for the best, but in true Cincinnati fan form I'll prepare for the worst.