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dunner13
10-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Think about it for a second, Hanigan is what 32? He has 3-4 more good years ahead of him. He had the lowest catchers ERA in baseball, is great defensive catcher, all the pitchers love him, hits for a good average, gets on base and will be cheap. So why not go ahead and make him the starting catcher for the next few years. Obviously that means theres no place for Mesoraco to play so trade him. He is still one of the top catching prospects in all of baseball so he should have pretty high trade value, rather then letting him rot on the bench or in AAA trade him for a leadoff hitter or another SP. Maybe we could even put him in a package with Mike Leake and try to get Justin Upton. To me if we are going for the world series in 2013 then Hanigan needs to catch at least 120 games which means Mesoraco has more value as a trade chip then a backup catcher.

mdccclxix
10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
I've thought about that too. I would give him a 3b glove first to see if that would work. His offensive profile could potentially replace Ludwick right away...just need to get him going.

PuffyPig
10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
You generally need two good cathcers to compete in the majors, unless you have one of those elite ones like Molina, Posey etc.

Hanigan is not elite, the more he plays the less he will hit.

We'd be a better team if Mes can produce like he did in the minors.

Wonderful Monds
10-16-2012, 05:03 PM
You generally need two good cathcers to compete in the majors, unless you have one of those elite ones like Molina, Posey etc.

Hanigan is not elite, the more he plays the less he will hit.

We'd be a better team if Mes can produce like he did in the minors.

Not to mention Mes profiles like a Posey or somewhere in that ballpark down the road, so you have to keep that if you have it.

Patrick Bateman
10-16-2012, 05:05 PM
Hanigan is also a guy already with older player hitting skills. He could absolutely plummet in the hitting department if he loses his bat speed at all over the next few years. At 32, Hanigan is likely to have a quick exit from his prime.

Superdude
10-16-2012, 05:06 PM
This should be one of the more interesting story lines next year. Mes floundered bad as the back up this year. That may have been a fluke, but if he struggles in a part time role, they're gonna have some decisions to make.

Kc61
10-16-2012, 05:09 PM
Hanigan is also a guy already with older player hitting skills. He could absolutely plummet in the hitting department if he loses his bat speed at all over the next few years. At 32, Hanigan is likely to have a quick exit from his prime.

Yes, in fact I think Hanigan's offense has already plummeted. His SLG declined from .429 to .357 to .338 last two years. In 317 ABs this year, he had 14 doubles, no triples, 2 homers.

Ryan is a great defender IMO, and provides OBP to a team starved for it. Hits lefty pitching pretty well. But as an all around hitter, he is limited.

If the Reds think Mes will hit, they must keep him. A catcher who can hit in the middle of the order would be a big addition to the ballclub.

Maybe start Mes at AAA next season, let him get going there, then bring him up. But I would keep both Hanny and Mes with the organization.

Big Klu
10-16-2012, 05:25 PM
I am not confident that Mesoraco will be a legitimate middle of the order hitter. I am optimistic that he can be the next Joe Oliver, only younger. As such, he is worth holding onto for the immediate future.

Hanigan is a fine catcher with outstanding defensive skills, but catchers tend to wane after reaching 30. Still, he can be very serviceable in a less than full time capacity. He would still be my #1 catcher for now, but he is best utilized if he has a suitable tag-team partner who can carry his share of the load.

traderumor
10-16-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm going to correlate this year to Mesaraco's slow start as a pro. He may just have a temperament that causes him to need a season of adjustment to another level. Watch out next year.

Unassisted
10-16-2012, 05:49 PM
Trading Mesoraco now strikes me as selling low. The fact that he was not on the playoff roster speaks volumes. No trading partner is going to overpay for someone undervalued by their own club.

Rojo
10-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Tempting. I love Hannigan behind the dish. But I'd hold on to Mes.

REDREAD
10-16-2012, 05:53 PM
Honestly, if Mez develops into a solid #6 hitter I will be thrilled to death. He doesn't necessarily need to be a middle of the order batter to be very useful.

I think he will hit enough to be worth holding on to.
I would like to see him start the season in AAA, or at least be pressured to earn the job in ST.. I know, ST stats mean little, but I don't want him to have another bad season offensively up here. Seems like his confidence was shaken at the end of the year..

The other poster brought up a good point. Mez seemed to need time at each level to adjust.. Hopefully he breaks out next year :)

dougdirt
10-16-2012, 05:54 PM
The Reds have no depth in the minors at all at the catching position. Their only real prospect in full season ball at the position just hit .200/.262/.292 in 142 trips to the plate in AA. Navarro is a free agent. Corky Miller is 800 years old. Trading Mesoraco would be crazy.

Wonderful Monds
10-16-2012, 05:57 PM
The Reds have no depth in the minors at all at the catching position. Their only real prospect in full season ball at the position just hit .200/.262/.292 in 142 trips to the plate in AA. Navarro is a free agent. Corky Miller is 800 years old. Trading Mesoraco would be crazy.

I can see the rationale at least. What's likely to be better? Mesoraco and his potential? Or whatever Mesoraco can return in a trade, plus a FA catcher to take his spot?

dougdirt
10-16-2012, 06:06 PM
I can see the rationale at least. What's likely to be better? Mesoraco and his potential? Or whatever Mesoraco can return in a trade, plus a FA catcher to take his spot?

Mesoraco and his potential.

Let's say you trade Mesoraco right now, at his lowest point since probably 2008, what do you get back? Probably not a whole lot. Certainly not an impact player.

So then what, you add salary for that player you just acquired, then have to add salary for a free agent catcher you just brought in on probably a 1 year deal because he knows he will be the back up. Then the next year you have to do the same thing because that guy walks. Then Hanigan is a 35 year old catcher with a no-name back up and all of your hopes are still pinned on Tucker Barnhart, who while he seems like a guy who could be another Ryan Hanigan type, well, has a ways to go before he even becomes that.

And all for what, a player who isn't a real impact on the team because teams aren't going to give that up for a backup (which is what Mesoraco is at this point) to a for the first time in his life, the majority catcher on his team. The Reds have told all of baseball that Mesoraco wasn't worth starting over a guy in his 30s who has never been a starter before in his life. Mesoraco has no value right now.

Slyder
10-16-2012, 06:14 PM
I've thought about that too. I would give him a 3b glove first to see if that would work. His offensive profile could potentially replace Ludwick right away...just need to get him going.

Austin Kearns is that you? Never considered that idea though. Could you see a possibility of giving Mesoraco a try in OF (like the Nats did with Harper) and let him catch 3-4 times a week, let Hanigan catch a couple times a week?

Wonderful Monds
10-16-2012, 06:16 PM
Mesoraco and his potential.

Let's say you trade Mesoraco right now, at his lowest point since probably 2008, what do you get back? Probably not a whole lot. Certainly not an impact player.

So then what, you add salary for that player you just acquired, then have to add salary for a free agent catcher you just brought in on probably a 1 year deal because he knows he will be the back up. Then the next year you have to do the same thing because that guy walks. Then Hanigan is a 35 year old catcher with a no-name back up and all of your hopes are still pinned on Tucker Barnhart, who while he seems like a guy who could be another Ryan Hanigan type, well, has a ways to go before he even becomes that.

And all for what, a player who isn't a real impact on the team because teams aren't going to give that up for a backup (which is what Mesoraco is at this point) to a for the first time in his life, the majority catcher on his team. The Reds have told all of baseball that Mesoraco wasn't worth starting over a guy in his 30s who has never been a starter before in his life. Mesoraco has no value right now.
I don't know if I necessarily agree on Mesoraco's value right now, but I agree overall.

Wonderful Monds
10-16-2012, 06:18 PM
Austin Kearns is that you? Never considered that idea though. Could you see a possibility of giving Mesoraco a try in OF (like the Nats did with Harper) and let him catch 3-4 times a week, let Hanigan catch a couple times a week?

If Mesoraco played a different position, I think he stops catching all together. Asking him to learn another position while still learning to hit in the majors is too much.

PuffyPig
10-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Mes as a catcher is possibly something special. Mes in LF or 3B is likely run of the mill at best.

Scrap Irony
10-16-2012, 07:52 PM
With his long, loopy uppercut, I question whether Mesoraco will ever hit at the level many on Redszone predict.

While dealing him may not be great, there are free agent options-- Russell Martin, Brian McCann, or Mike Napoli as either a full-time or part-time starter at catcher, or even a Chris Snyder, David Ross, or Kelly Shoppach as a back-up to Hanigan-- out there.

If Mesoraco can garner, say, a legitimate back of the 'pen arm or a be part of a deal for a legitimate table setter or cleanup slugger, IMO, you make that deal every day of the week.

A back-up catcher isn't worth all that much in today's game, and Mesoraco, frankly, is lucky to be even that after the stinker he put up last season.

Wonderful Monds
10-16-2012, 07:57 PM
With his long, loopy uppercut, I question whether Mesoraco will ever hit at the level many on Redszone predict.

While dealing him may not be great, there are free agent options-- Russell Martin, Brian McCann, or Mike Napoli as either a full-time or part-time starter at catcher, or even a Chris Snyder, David Ross, or Kelly Shoppach as a back-up to Hanigan-- out there.

If Mesoraco can garner, say, a legitimate back of the 'pen arm or a be part of a deal for a legitimate table setter or cleanup slugger, IMO, you make that deal every day of the week.

A back-up catcher isn't worth all that much in today's game, and Mesoraco, frankly, is lucky to be even that after the stinker he put up last season.

I wouldn't mind McCann, a little more LH power would be good for this team, Napoli would be nice too, if we could afford them. Maybe we can, I don't think anyone can have any idea what the team can afford at this point.

PuffyPig
10-16-2012, 07:59 PM
A back-up catcher isn't worth all that much in today's game, and Mesoraco, frankly, is lucky to be even that after the stinker he put up last season.

If his value is that low, then we may as well keep him since no one will give up much for him.

corkedbat
10-17-2012, 12:12 AM
I re-sign Navarro (or acquire someone similar) and start Mes in L'ville for at least a month or two to let him get regular AB's and then I bring him up once he's honed his stroke.

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 02:20 AM
I re-sign Navarro (or acquire someone similar) and start Mes in L'ville for at least a month or two to let him get regular AB's and then I bring him up once he's honed his stroke.

And then sit him 4 times a week? Or are you going to play him 5 times a week over Hanigan? We know the Reds aren't going to.

Superdude
10-17-2012, 05:10 AM
And then sit him 4 times a week? Or are you going to play him 5 times a week over Hanigan? We know the Reds aren't going to.

How do you see this playing out Doug? I can understand management's reluctance to hand him the job after last season, but Mes is gonna be pushing 25 years old next year. I was ok with making him earn the job last year, but we can't wait forever for him to go on a hot streak and finally claim Hanigan's spot. We've gone from having arguably the best catching prospect in baseball to a guy the organization doesn't even seem comfortable keeping as the back up.

PuffyPig
10-17-2012, 08:15 AM
And then sit him 4 times a week? Or are you going to play him 5 times a week over Hanigan? We know the Reds aren't going to.

Mes will play as much as his hitting dictates.

I believe the Reds were hoping that Mes would take over the position last year and play 5 times per week.

dunner13
10-17-2012, 10:10 AM
If we are going to keep Mes then he has to catch at least 100 games next year, even if he struggles to start with they have to keep running him out there. I do think he has the potential to be an all star level catcher but my fear is that instead of playing him hes going to sit on the bench for 120 games the next two years and never get a chance to develop and we are going to just have wasted all that potential. If thats the plan then I would rather trade him and get something for him that helps the team win in 13, if we are going to let him play and at least be the #1 guy in the time share with hanigan then yes lets keep him.

Chip R
10-17-2012, 10:18 AM
I think some people forget Mes wasn't a 5 year veteran who actually had a history of stats to live up to instead of a rookie learning the toughest position on the field. It's a learning process and he's not going to be Johnny Bench right out of the gate. Sure he could have done better but how about cutting him some slack?

mattfeet
10-17-2012, 11:10 AM
Did Mes even garner enough games or AB's for 2012 to qualify as his rookie year?

mattfeet
10-17-2012, 11:22 AM
Checked it. Mesoraco has 165 AB's this year so 2012 was his rookie year.

Dan
10-17-2012, 11:31 AM
I think some people forget Mes wasn't a 5 year veteran who actually had a history of stats to live up to instead of a rookie learning the toughest position on the field. It's a learning process and he's not going to be Johnny Bench right out of the gate. Sure he could have done better but how about cutting him some slack?

This is about where I'm at. I can see the view of those who want to trade him, but Mez hasn't ever shown that he takes quickly to the next level in his move through the minor leagues. He took a full season at Rookie, A and A+ to establish himself, then half a season at AA and AAA each to get his feet under him before he was finally productive. Expecting him to produce in the majors immediately is probably unrealistic given his natural learning curve. I'd expect him to probably take until the middle of next season before he starts showing some productivity. He seems like a competitor and a hard worker, so I have no doubt he'll be working like crazy to get there.

Always Red
10-17-2012, 11:41 AM
Hanigan's a valuable guy, but not a full time catcher. As noted, his hitting skills are already starting to diminish.

I think the Reds really want Mes to take the next step up. I think all the Navarro playing at the end of the year was just getting Dioner ready for the playoffs, as at this point he is a better bat than Mes.

We know Navarro is a AAAA player, guys like him will always be available and up and down during the season.

I'd be shocked if the Reds trade Mes, unless its for another young catcher.

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 02:16 PM
Checked it. Mesoraco has 165 AB's this year so 2012 was his rookie year.

Even if he had only gotten 129 (130 is the limit), he wouldn't have been ROY eligible for 2013 because he spent more than 45 days on the active roster. But I think it says it all that despite being on the roster for every day but what, 16 for his concussion/suspension/demotion, he got 15 more at bats than Miguel Cairo and 29 fewer than Wilson Valdez.

The Reds have done nothing but show zero confidence in him. Mat Latos is a notoriously slow starter. Mesoraco gets yanked as his catcher before April is even over. I am sure that helped his confidence. I just don't know that the Reds have done anything to show Mesoraco that they have any faith at all in him. That can't be sitting well in his head.

westofyou
10-17-2012, 03:12 PM
That can't be sitting well in his head.


Then maybe he'll actually perform better and then he AND the Reds can feel good about Devin.

As of now, he's hardly been the second coming of Joe Oliver much alone JB.

That said hell no I don't trade him

dougdirt
10-17-2012, 03:43 PM
I don't think many guys under 25 are out there performing all that well in a situation where they play an entire year and get 165 at bats with no options of being used against guys you may succeed against (like a normal platoon where one guy gets to feast on lefties or righties or something like that).

Always Red
10-17-2012, 03:52 PM
I'm sure that Devin's feelings are wounded somewhat, but I am also rock sure that Devin knows that this is a hard game for hard men, the future is promised to no one (not named Bryce Harper) and the time to prove yourself is when you get a chance, whatever chance that is.

CySeymour
10-17-2012, 04:33 PM
For a guy who you have already poured a lot of resources into as a first round pick, 54 games in a season is not nearly enough time to determine if a guy is going to cut it in the big leagues. If they weren't going to play him much at all last season, they should have demoted him to AAA so he could play. The Reds have to decide if they are going to play Mes more next season. If Walt and his staff decide that he does need to play more, then he needs to direct Dusty to give him more playing time.

The ying and yang about Mes and Hanny is almost all of Hanigan's value is tied to his defense, but with Mes most of his value is tied to his bat. Mes looked overmatched most of the time at the plate. A lot of rookies do when they first get to the big leagues. The only way he will figure it out, is to get plenty of at-bats. Anything less then about 300 PA's for Mesoraco will be a huge missed opportunity for the team.

The Reds won the Central by 9 games in 2012. Would giving Mesoraco 20 more starts have cost them 9 wins? Of course not.

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Found this interesting bit at reds.com:


Hanigan's backup, Devin Mesoraco, struggled and was demoted in late August for 10 days. Mesoraco still has some growing to do at the position, but he remains in the club's plans. He did a good job mainly working with Bailey and Leake, but others weren't comfortable with him behind the plate, namely Chapman. The Reds were fortunate that Minor League signee Navarro stepped up when Mesoraco faltered. Navarro could be part of the depth if he's retained.

Not that it can't change, but the fact that Chapman isn't comfortable with Mez is apparently limiting his playing time. You'd think that a move to the rotation for Chapman could also mean increased playing time for Mez. I predict more gridlock and status quo on this issue. Chapman is too good and so is Hanigan in the current configuration.

Scrap Irony
10-24-2012, 11:23 AM
Bailey took off with Hanigan as his catcher. Arroyo, Latos, Cueto-- all did well with Hanigan.

At the beginning of the season, Latos struggled with Mesoraco as his personal catcher. Bailey pitched decently with Mesoraco, but wasn't great at all. Leake struggled for the most part with Mes as his personal catcher.

While it's only one year of (limited) andecdotal evidence, it doesn't look as if the pitching staff as a whole pitched well with Mesoraco. His CERA was 4.19 during the 2012 season, while Hanigan led the league with a 3.05 CERA. Mes wasn't any better in 2011.

He may take off and learn how to call a game, frame pitches, and do all the little things catchers do to help their pitchers, but, so far, it seems as if he has a long way to go. I suspect he's more available than many on this site seem to think.

REDREAD
10-24-2012, 11:37 AM
Found this interesting bit at reds.com:

Not that it can't change, but the fact that Chapman isn't comfortable with Mez is apparently limiting his playing time. You'd think that a move to the rotation for Chapman could also mean increased playing time for Mez. I predict more gridlock and status quo on this issue. Chapman is too good and so is Hanigan in the current configuration.

That is interesting.
I wonder if it stemmed from Chapman's appearances earlier in the year, when Mez was only calling fastballs because "no one was hitting them".
IMO, Chapman has a lot of maturing to do too.
But I can see why the pitchers would prefer to pitch to Hannigan.. he's got great came calling skills.. Mez is still a work in progress (I still think Mez will find success, not as the cleanup hitter some dreamed of, but a decent #6 type hitter, above average offensive catcher).

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 11:55 AM
It's worth considering if Mez can really be one of those do it all catchers on offense and defense. There's maybe 3-4 in the league? I think he has the desire, he just may need a lot of patience. I haven't known what to think of the idea, but AAA seems like a better idea now than if has in the past.

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 11:59 AM
Carlos Ruiz didn't catch on at the MLB level until age 27. I think we could expect something similar for Mez?

Scrap Irony
10-24-2012, 12:14 PM
IMO, Chapman has a lot of maturing to do too.

Why?

Chapman was among the best pitchers in baseball last season. Two brief hiccups and a tired arm notwithstanding, Dude got it done as no one in the history of the game has.

I don't care if he carries a blankie and pacifier to the mound-- if he's as good as last season, you give him pretty much what he wants.

Benihana
10-24-2012, 12:29 PM
I haven't combed through the pages of this thread yet, but you know what might be interesting? Trading Hanigan.

It's a big sell high move, and obviously a big gamble. I'm not necessarily advocating it, but if Hanigan (plus a pitching prospect) could bring us a major bat for LF, CF, or 3B, it might be worth it. Clears the decks for Mez and you keep Navarro as a backup in case Mez faulters or pitchers like Chapman don't get comfortable with him.

Look at Yadier Molina- great defensive catchers that can get on base are a very valuable commodity. Hanigan proved this year that he can do exactly that. Maybe some team is willing to overpay for that?

Here's one idea:

1. Ludwick wants Cuddyer-type deal (3 years or $20M) - too expensive for the Reds
2. Rangers are in search of catching help http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/rangers-targeting-catchers-this-offseason.html
3. Trade Hanigan and one of Stubbs/Heisey to Texas for Nelson Cruz and $5MM

Replicate Ludwick's production on a 1 year, $5MM deal. Personally I prefer Justin Upton but Arizona isn't in need of catching help.

Kc61
10-24-2012, 01:03 PM
I wouldn't trade Hanigan. I wouldn't trade Mes. I would try to keep Navarro.

I would start Mes at AAA for two months next year. My guess is he'd destroy AAA pitching and learn some more about catching.

Baseball fans can be so short-term oriented some times. Mes is still a very young catcher. Give him time, don't give up so fast.

The upside for Mes is still great. Yes, some guys burst on the MLB scene, but some don't.

Give Mes two months of regular AAA playing time next year, then if he's doing well, promote him to the big club. My guess is you'll see a much better ball player in the second half of 2013 and onward.

TOBTTReds
10-24-2012, 01:03 PM
Why?

Chapman was among the best pitchers in baseball last season. Two brief hiccups and a tired arm notwithstanding, Dude got it done as no one in the history of the game has.

I don't care if he carries a blankie and pacifier to the mound-- if he's as good as last season, you give him pretty much what he wants.

I think a blankie would get in the way.

Really though, the only thing that disappointed me was his receiving ability. I was talking with a former pitcher while watching a game and he couldn't believe how bad he was receiving pitches, especially breaking balls. He stabs really bad on balls below his right knee, which is a big problem. You could tell he wasn't comfortable catching Chapman either, so I don't blame Chapman for those feelings.

For the record, I am a big fan of Mesoracos and I expect him to do well still, as soon as next year.

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 01:03 PM
I'd be more interested in overpaying for Ludwick. Or asking for Andrus instead and move Cozart to 3b and Frazier to LF. Either way, you risk potentially destabilizing the entire staff, at least it appears that way. It's not in Walt's dna, I wouldn't think.

Benihana
10-24-2012, 01:07 PM
I'd be more interested in overpaying for Ludwick. Or asking for Andrus instead and move Cozart to 3b and Frazier to LF. Either way, you risk potentially destabilizing the entire staff, at least it appears that way. It's not in Walt's dna, I wouldn't think.

I hear you but I don't think Cozart has the offensive firepower to be a valuable 3B. Especially not with Andrus at SS and Frazier in LF. I think the Reds would be too weak offensively.

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 01:14 PM
3b is not a big offensive position. A .750 OPS would be outstanding for any team, and an upgrade for the Reds. Tough to count on that from Cozart I guess. But Andrus would solve leadoff "big time" (dusty voice).

Benihana
10-24-2012, 01:20 PM
3b is not a big offensive position. A .750 OPS would be outstanding for any team, and an upgrade for the Reds. Tough to count on that from Cozart I guess. But Andrus would solve leadoff "big time" (dusty voice).

Problem is you could likely have 5 offensive positions that OPS < .750 (SS, 3B, LF, CF, C) or everyone other than the three guys on the right side of the diamond.

I don't think that puts you in position to have a very good offense.

cinreds21
10-24-2012, 03:21 PM
3b is not a big offensive position. A .750 OPS would be outstanding for any team, and an upgrade for the Reds. Tough to count on that from Cozart I guess. But Andrus would solve leadoff "big time" (dusty voice).

But Billy Hamilton will be the Reds' leadoff hitter as of April 2014.

mdccclxix
10-24-2012, 04:15 PM
But Billy Hamilton will be the Reds' leadoff hitter as of April 2014.

And Andrus would possibly be a free agent at that time, I believe. If they somehow resigned Andrus, that would be a nice top of the order with Hamilton and Andrus then Votto.

Raisor
10-24-2012, 07:58 PM
Mes caught 420 Innings in 2012.

That's approx 7 games a month.

I'm going to go ahead and call that a "small sample size".

westofyou
10-24-2012, 09:52 PM
Mes caught 420 Innings in 2012.

That's approx 7 games a month.

I'm going to go ahead and call that a "small sample size".

Yep, trade your two 1st round catchers in two off seasons?

Sounds wack to me