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View Full Version : P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too



Reds/Flyers Fan
10-19-2012, 04:11 PM
Daugherty admits it is a pipe dream and a huge risk, but that's what the offseason is for.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121018/COL03/310180123/Doc-Josh-Hamilton-How-about-we-bring-him-back-?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p&nclick_check=1

westofyou
10-19-2012, 04:13 PM
Daugherty admits it is a pipe dream and a huge risk, but that's what the offseason is for.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121018/COL03/310180123/Doc-Josh-Hamilton-How-about-we-bring-him-back-?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p&nclick_check=1

That and beaver shooting... but I digress

VR
10-19-2012, 04:14 PM
He'll most likely replace Lance Berkman in St. Louis.

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-19-2012, 04:15 PM
He'll most likely replace Lance Berkman in St. Louis.

Yuck.

westofyou
10-19-2012, 04:19 PM
He'll most likely replace Lance Berkman in St. Louis.

No way, he's to risky a move for their GM, doesn't fit his MO

He'll end up on team that dumps cash on him willy nilly

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-19-2012, 04:26 PM
For entertainment purposes only:

Span CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Hamilton CF
A-Rod 3B
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Hanigan/Mes C
Pitcher

:D:D:D

oneupper
10-19-2012, 04:33 PM
For entertainment purposes only:

Span CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Hamilton CF
A-Rod 3B
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Hanigan/Mes C
Pitcher

:D:D:D

Big hole in LF and SS. Our pitchers may not like it. :D:D

Reds/Flyers Fan
10-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Big hole in LF and SS. Our pitchers may not like it. :D:D

Let hamilton play short in an easy chair ... he's entitled to do whatever he wants, per Dunn and Griffey. :D

And that's what I get for doing five things at once, including booking Thanksgiving airline tickets. I hope I didn't just accidentally reserve three seats to Nepal.

WildcatFan
10-19-2012, 04:42 PM
I can think of a lot of players I would splurge on this offseason. Josh Hamilton is not one of them.

Chip R
10-19-2012, 04:43 PM
One thing - or is that two - that Milwaukee offers is the Brothers Narron.

reds44
10-19-2012, 05:00 PM
Yeah lets give a player who was bad after June and who is a huge injury and character risk a truck load of money in a small market!

Great plan!

oneupper
10-19-2012, 05:01 PM
Let hamilton play short in an easy chair ... he's entitled to do whatever he wants, per Dunn and Griffey. :D

And that's what I get for doing five things at once, including booking Thanksgiving airline tickets. I hope I didn't just accidentally reserve three seats to Nepal.

Nepal is supposed to be beautiful. I'd really want to go. Have a great thanksgiving.

Joseph
10-19-2012, 06:07 PM
I was disappointed we traded Josh back then. I was less disappointed when Volquez won 18 games. I returned to disappointment when Josh won the MVP, thinking...what if. But thats as fruitful as wondering what if you'd have married your college sweetheart, pointless.

None of that matters. I don't want him back.

PuffyPig
10-19-2012, 06:14 PM
Huge risk for any team.

The Cards have Craig at 1st, Beltran in RF, though only for one more year. It would be an odd move for them to make, considering they were 2nd in the NL in runs scored. I doubt they spend $100M+ on Hamilton.

Caveat Emperor
10-19-2012, 06:29 PM
Love the Hamilton story. Wish he'd have stayed a Red a little longer.

Not interested in loading tons of cash on him, especially considering the injury history and problems (with some guys still on the roster) in the clubhouse the last go-around.

Brutus
10-19-2012, 06:34 PM
Yeah lets give a player who was bad after June and who is a huge injury and character risk a truck load of money in a small market!

Great plan!

Post All-Star break he had an .833 OPS. Not exactly what I'd call "bad," especially for a premium position.

It's debatable as to whether it's worth the risk but let's not exaggerate the circumstances.

Unassisted
10-19-2012, 06:43 PM
John Fay has the antidote to Daugherty's dream.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/10/19/weighing-in-on-hamilton-not-billy/

kbrake
10-19-2012, 07:09 PM
I have zero interest in Josh Hamilton and the loads of baggage that would come with.

757690
10-19-2012, 07:23 PM
One thing - or is that two - that Milwaukee offers is the Brothers Narron.

Good point, although I imagine any team that signs Hamilton could easily pry he Narrons away from the Brewers.

Tom Servo
10-19-2012, 07:26 PM
Unless he were willing to do a short term deal, and I don't see any reason why he would be, I'm not interested.

RedsBaron
10-19-2012, 07:36 PM
Big hole in LF and SS. Our pitchers may not like it. :D:D

The pitchers just have to not let hitters pull the ball. :D

Brutus
10-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Unless he were willing to do a short term deal, and I don't see any reason why he would be, I'm not interested.

Who's going to give him more than 3-4 years anyhow?

Tom Servo
10-19-2012, 08:48 PM
Who's going to give him more than 3-4 years anyhow?
I know it's not the go-go Aughties anymore where Gary Matthews Jr can get 5 years/50 million, but someone will give Hamilton the deal he's looking for.

RedFanAlways1966
10-19-2012, 09:27 PM
Post All-Star break he had an .833 OPS. Not exactly what I'd call "bad," especially for a premium position.

It's debatable as to whether it's worth the risk but let's not exaggerate the circumstances.

For $20-$30 mill per year... better be AT LEAST .200 higher than .833! And I mean every month. Especially for a team with a payroll that is not in the top-5 spenders. If not, pass.

Even if possible, pass. Baggage, risks, injuries, "special" treatment, etc, etc, etc. PASS!

mdccclxix
10-19-2012, 10:01 PM
Rule of thumb: do the opposite of what Daugherty says to do. He's merely ruminating and is in no way serious. Tomorrow he'll damn the Reds for even considering the idea.

PuffyPig
10-19-2012, 10:21 PM
Post All-Star break he had an .833 OPS. Not exactly what I'd call "bad," especially for a premium position.



He's a LF playing CF, so he really doesn't play a premium position.

traderumor
10-19-2012, 11:44 PM
Bold prediction: If Hamilton goes to a rival and performs at a superstar level, there will be a lot of "the Reds should have went harder after him" talk.

Matt700wlw
10-20-2012, 01:30 AM
I'm a huge Josh Hamilton fan.

The Reds made a bad trade, or did they? Latos wouldn't be here if it weren't for Volquez......... but an older, more worn down version of Josh isn't what the Reds need now.

REDREAD
10-20-2012, 01:38 AM
I'm a huge Josh Hamilton fan.

The Reds made a bad trade, or did they? Latos wouldn't be here if it weren't for Volquez......... but an older, more worn down version of Josh isn't what the Reds need now.

I disagree with this.. Everything we've read said that the Padres really wanted Alonso and Grandal.. The two pitchers were a lesser priority.
Volquez could've been replaced with Leake (or probably a lesser talent).

Brutus
10-20-2012, 09:33 AM
For $20-$30 mill per year... better be AT LEAST .200 higher than .833! And I mean every month. Especially for a team with a payroll that is not in the top-5 spenders. If not, pass.

Even if possible, pass. Baggage, risks, injuries, "special" treatment, etc, etc, etc. PASS!

I wasn't arguing whether or not he's worth that kind of money (although his season as a whole was a .930 OPS so I sense there's a bit of cherry-picking going on). Rather, I was more disagreeing with the narrative that he was "bad" the second half of the year. An .830 OPS from a centerfielder is still pretty good. We'd all be in heaven if Drew Stubbs could do that.

Brutus
10-20-2012, 09:34 AM
I know it's not the go-go Aughties anymore where Gary Matthews Jr can get 5 years/50 million, but someone will give Hamilton the deal he's looking for.

I just don't see it. I think he'll get $20 mil a year, but I don't see him getting more than 3-4 years. All it takes is one team, so you could be right, but I'm not getting that feeling.

Always Red
10-20-2012, 09:40 AM
As I was reading through this, I had a inkling, just for a second, that the Yankees would be just the kind of team to take on this huge risk, for big dollars, and a longer term than most teams would pay.

Can you imagine the enormity of the train wreck that occurs if Josh Hamilton lives, works, and tries to dodge temptation in the Big Apple?

PuffyPig
10-20-2012, 10:11 AM
The Reds made a bad trade, or did they? Latos wouldn't be here if it weren't for Volquez......... but an older, more worn down version of Josh isn't what the Reds need now.

Don't think for a moment that Volquez was a key component in the Latos trade. He was more salary dump than anything else. That trade could have been easily done without his inclusion.

HokieRed
10-20-2012, 10:53 AM
Seems like a non-story. What FO wouldn't be "considering" Josh H.?

Raisor
10-20-2012, 10:59 AM
I wouldn't go over two years for Hamilton. His back keeps him off the field too much.

Chip R
10-20-2012, 12:30 PM
I know it's not the go-go Aughties anymore where Gary Matthews Jr can get 5 years/50 million, but someone will give Hamilton the deal he's looking for.

History has shown us that whenever there is a big TV contract signed, teams will spend big. If Team A and Team B only want to give him a 3 year deal, there is always going to be Team C who wants to make a splash and give him those extra 2-3 years. I would say the Marlins fit that profile but they are reportedly in cost-cutting mode - again. You would have to give the edge to an AL team where he's familiar with the pitching and could DH if necessary.

BrooklynRedz
10-20-2012, 03:41 PM
I wouldn't go over two years for Hamilton. His back keeps him off the field too much.

That and his seemingly adolescent understanding of basic nutritional obligations.

traderumor
10-20-2012, 07:17 PM
Boston? Lots of money to spend.

dman
10-23-2012, 01:05 AM
It seems as if St. Louis were inclined to spend a truckload of money on one particular player, they would have spent the cash on Pujols to keep him a Cardinal, seeing that he was their franchise player.

Superdude
10-23-2012, 01:47 AM
No way this happens, but would Hamilton even come back here if we had the money? If I remember correct, he wasn't exactly on good terms with the clubhouse when he left and we doubted him enough to essentially flip him for whatever value we could as soon as possible.

GAC
10-23-2012, 06:30 AM
He will be 32 in May... and it's an old 32. He's going for that last and final pay-out, which would be a multi-year deal somewhere in the range of 20M/year. Jocketty (Reds) won't even look at him, and I'm on board with that.

Besides.... that would be back-to-back-to back lefties in the batting order (Votto, Hamilton, Bruce). That would put Dusty back in the hospital! LOL

I think he'll end up staying in the AL. Maybe a Blue Jay.

MikeS21
10-23-2012, 10:12 AM
No way this happens, but would Hamilton even come back here if we had the money? If I remember correct, he wasn't exactly on good terms with the clubhouse when he left and we doubted him enough to essentially flip him for whatever value we could as soon as possible.
Actually, I think there were prima donnas in the Reds' clubhouse at the time that didn't like all the attention Hamilton was getting. They didn't like all the special treatment that Hamilton was getting from the FO. It didn't help that Hamilton was out performing both of them put together. Of course, the accusation of special treatment was a farce, because both Dunn and Griffey, whom seemed to be the ones named as the biggest clubhouse critics of Josh Hamilton, got so much preferential treatment, the whole thing was silly.

I honestly have never understood all the animosity toward Josh Hamilton by the media and by some fans. Yes, he got involved with drugs. Yes, it took him a while to get clean. Yes, I understand the concept of "Once an addict - always an addict." But has Josh Hamilton actually failed a drug test since his days here in Cincinnati? To my knowledge, his only couple of "relapses" have not involved drugs, but alcohol. You can't tell me that Josh Hamilton is the only baseball player who has had a beer over the last three or four years.

To me, Hamilton's only crime is that he had been open about his past failures and he doesn't want to repeat them. One way he does that is to make himself publicly accountable. That's why he says some of the off-the-wall things he does. Instead, he becomes a target, and every game he misses is scrutinized. He plays hard. And Hamilton feels that if his body cannot play hard, then he is not helping his team by only playing half hard.

If I were Jocketty, you better believe I would be on the phone talking to Josh Hamilton.

REDREAD
10-23-2012, 10:42 AM
Actually, I think there were prima donnas in the Reds' clubhouse at the time that didn't like all the attention Hamilton was getting. They didn't like all the special treatment that Hamilton was getting from the FO.

I agree with your entire post.
I also think that the Reds planted stories about Josh in the clubhouse to help justify trading him, so that they wouldn't look as stupid for making the trade.

But yea, it seems that Dunn and Jr had trouble with Josh being the biggest story on the team. I can kind of understand (considering all the crap Dunn and Jr had to deal with from Marty and some fans).. but that doesn't make Josh a bad person.

I can understand the financial reasons why it would be be a bad idea to sign Josh, but he'd be great in this lineup.

Chip R
10-23-2012, 12:23 PM
I agree with your entire post.
I also think that the Reds planted stories about Josh in the clubhouse to help justify trading him, so that they wouldn't look as stupid for making the trade.

But yea, it seems that Dunn and Jr had trouble with Josh being the biggest story on the team. I can kind of understand (considering all the crap Dunn and Jr had to deal with from Marty and some fans).. but that doesn't make Josh a bad person.

I can understand the financial reasons why it would be be a bad idea to sign Josh, but he'd be great in this lineup.

I don't think the Reds needed to plant any stories justifying the trade. The Reds couldn't see into the future and know Hamilton would stay on the straight and narrow (mostly) keep healthy (mostly) and be one of the elite players in baseball. The potential was there but as a lot of folks on here will say, the Reds needed young pitching more than they needed hitting. The trade didn't work out in the Reds favor but it wasn't like Volquez was the second coming of Eric Milton.

As for Hamilton in the clubhouse, I have no earthly idea what the dynamics were in that clubhouse. I would guess that Hamilton's faith may have made some players uncomfortable. I would also guess that his restrictions on socializing would also make some players uncomfortable. He couldn't go out after games with the fellas for a beer or two. He really couldn't go out period because he couldn't be trusted with money. Another possible strike against him may have been his relationship with the Narrons. Johnny Narron was his handler and the manager was Johnny's brother. Perhaps some of the other players felt they couldn't speak freely around Hamilton because whatever they would say would eventually get back to the manager. Anyone who has played organized sports as a kid have had that kid on their team who was the coach's son. Even if that kid is a great player, there is bound to be some resentment from some players on the team that the kid is only there because he's the coach's kid. Hamilton wasn't the coach's son but he was very tight with the Narrons. Right or wrong, that's bound to cause some ill feelings.

There have been reports that the Rangers don't want him back at any price. Are they too planting stories to make them look good if he leaves? Leaving behind all the personality issues, you have to wonder about Hamilton. Is he the guy from the last 2 months of the season who missed a whole series because of a sinus infection? Or did he miss it because of too much caffeine? Is he the guy who slumped because he quit chewing tobacco? Is he the guy who dropped an easy fly ball and didn't run hard after it? In the town that spawned Charlie Hustle, that's a mortal sin. Or is he the MVP candidate from the last 2 years and earlier this year?

Always Red
10-23-2012, 12:26 PM
http://www.dallassportsrant.com/2012/10/09/the-rangers-offseason-overhaul/


Earlier this week an anonymous member of the Rangers front office said that Hamilton wouldn’t be coming back to Texas, “even if he wanted to play for free.”

Today, Jon Daniels said during the Rangers’ end of year press conference, that they would probably not make an offer to Josh during the three week, exclusive negotiating window provided to teams with free agents.

That’s a pretty good indication of how the organization feels, and the fans definitely reflect that sentiment. Josh Hamilton has worn out his welcome.

Conspiracy theories about the Reds planting stories, and problems with Dunn and Junior aside, it appears that Hamilton's problems in Texas are of his own making, and have nothing to do with his time here.

I'm sure he'll sign a big contract somewhere. I'd have no problem with him coming back here, for 2-3 years, tops, but that's not going to happen.

I have a feeling that someones going to be paying Josh Hamilton for a very long time after he's done playing baseball. Because he's just not going to play that much longer, IMHO.

REDREAD
10-23-2012, 05:21 PM
I don't think the Reds needed to plant any stories justifying the trade. The Reds couldn't see into the future and know Hamilton would stay on the straight and narrow (mostly) keep healthy (mostly) and be one of the elite players in baseball. The potential was there but as a lot of folks on here will say, the Reds needed young pitching more than they needed hitting. The trade didn't work out in the Reds favor but it wasn't like Volquez was the second coming of Eric Milton.



I guess I would consider the Volquez-Hamilton trade a bigger disaster than Milton. Milton didn't cost us any talent to acquire. The story we heard (who knows if it's true) is that one day Carl woke up and decided to spend some money to improve the team.. There were slim pickings on the FA market at that point, and DanO made a stupid choice to sign Milton (I don't buy the "He was forced to" excuse.. if he can't assert to Carl that Milton is a bad idea, he shouldn't be GM)

So Milton just cost us some money. Volquez cost us an MVP bat that could've played LF and CF for a long time. Hamilton was a potential difference maker for the 2010 and 2012 playoffs .. No one knows for sure, but it's not unreasonable to assume that there was a good chance he would've been more productive than Stubbs. All we got from Volquez was a good half season (probably roids aided) in a lost season..

At the time of the trade, Volquez was a pure enigma.. Honestly, this was another instance of Wayne making desperate moves to bolster the pitching, and like many of his moves, it backfired.. No need to list them all here.. We know them.

People say Hamilton was a risk.. Yet Volquez profiled as a guy with control problems that might never put it together. Hamilton was arguably the best hitter on the Reds when they traded him.. He at least had some track record of production..

If players were jealous that Hamilton got too much spotlight or were bothered that he wouldn't have a beer with them or he talked religion too much.. then those players need to grow up.. Geez.. What other club would trade a guy because he won't go out and have a beer.. that just seems like excuse making.
As far as religion.. how hard is it to tell Josh.. "MAn, I'm glad religion is helping you, but let's move on to a different topic".. We all have to put up with that stuff in our jobs every day.. I can't get someone fired or transfered because his religion or lack of drinking bothers me.. Sorry, but this is a case where the complainers should've been told to suck it up and deal with it.

I can see why the Rangers, the Reds, and other clubs don't want to pay Josh 20 million/year for many years. But if money wasn't a problem, why wouldn't you want Hamilton on the team? Seems like a lot of accusations about a player we really don't know.. People got upset when Dunn/Jr/Kearns were accused of being lazy and caring about video games, but it's ok to assume things about Hamilton?

Chip R
10-23-2012, 06:05 PM
At the time of the trade, Volquez was a pure enigma.. Honestly, this was another instance of Wayne making desperate moves to bolster the pitching, and like many of his moves, it backfired.. No need to list them all here.. We know them.

People say Hamilton was a risk.. Yet Volquez profiled as a guy with control problems that might never put it together. Hamilton was arguably the best hitter on the Reds when they traded him.. He at least had some track record of production..[/quote]

The Rangers were reluctant to make the trade because they too had little pitching in their system. So it wasn't exactly a no-brainer. And, as I said earlier, that trade has been and will be defended by people who know what they are talking about. Hindsight's always 20/20.

And there's a difference between a guy who may never put it together and a guy who could be out of baseball if he relapses.


If players were jealous that Hamilton got too much spotlight or were bothered that he wouldn't have a beer with them or he talked religion too much.. then those players need to grow up.. Geez.. What other club would trade a guy because he won't go out and have a beer.. that just seems like excuse making.

Who said that he was traded because he couldn't have a beer with the boys? All I said - and it's just speculation - was that he may not have been too popular because he didn't socialize. Having a player on a team who doesn't socialize with his teammates has happened since they started playing the game. I'm sure there have been players who were traded because they weren't "one of the boys". Most teams realize that if a player like that is on their team, he isn't going to be the one to be traded. Look at Brandon Phillips. He's a teetotaler and he's probably going to be a Red for the rest of his career.


As far as religion.. how hard is it to tell Josh.. "MAn, I'm glad religion is helping you, but let's move on to a different topic".. We all have to put up with that stuff in our jobs every day.. I can't get someone fired or transfered because his religion or lack of drinking bothers me.. Sorry, but this is a case where the complainers should've been told to suck it up and deal with it.

I don't know if Josh was one of those guys who we saw in "Bull Durham" who would proselytize to his teammates after games. Maybe he was like George Foster who would sit in his locker and read his Bible - something Sparky wasn't really fond of.

These are baseball players. Most of them are prima donnas and/or adolescents. They are going to complain about darn near anything and get away with it because they possess a skill set that few others do.


I can see why the Rangers, the Reds, and other clubs don't want to pay Josh 20 million/year for many years. But if money wasn't a problem, why wouldn't you want Hamilton on the team? Seems like a lot of accusations about a player we really don't know.. People got upset when Dunn/Jr/Kearns were accused of being lazy and caring about video games, but it's ok to assume things about Hamilton?

Again, you may not want Hamilton on your team because if he relapses, he's gone for good. He also has an injury history. But he also had/has value. Perhaps, just perhaps, the Reds traded him because they wanted pitching. I'm not sure if Dunn and/or Junior were on the block but I'm sure their salaries - plus Junior's 10/5 rights made them more difficult to trade than Hamilton. Hamilton was basically making minimum wage - as was Volquez. As for accusing Hamilton of things, that's not what I'm doing. The facts are that Hamilton is religious, he doesn't socialize with teammates and he needs a handler. Maybe some or all of those things got him traded. That's no slam on Hamilton. I would hope that the players were/are mature enough to realize that he is someone that needs special treatment. Anyone familiar with his history knew that. If the players couldn't/can't handle that, that's a shame. But sometimes Occam's Razor applies: The reason he was traded is the simplest reason of them all. The Reds needed pitching. No big conspiracy theories here. No second spitter on the grassy knoll.

MikeS21
10-23-2012, 09:37 PM
Wow! Sorry, I had no intention of starting a firestorm.

I do think Josh Hamilton has AT TIMES been treated unfairly in the media. And I fully understand the frustration when he misses games with ailments that many of us would go ahead and work through (although a sinus infection would make me pretty useless).

I do not wish to rehash the "Trade." I am on record as to my opinions in far too many threads on the subject.

If the Reds could sign Hamilton to a two year deal with a club option for a third year, that would be super. However, you can be sure Hamilton is looking for a longer deal. I might go three years with a club option for a fourth year, but I would think long and hard. Still, an OF of J. Hamilton, Stubbs/B. Hamilton, and Bruce would be a productive group for the next 2-3 seasons, both offensively and defensively.

Scrap Irony
10-24-2012, 12:17 PM
Hamilton will end up in New York or perhaps LA.

Which will be interesting like a car wreck on the freeway.

Chip R
10-24-2012, 12:28 PM
Hamilton will end up in New York or perhaps LA.

Which will be interesting like a car wreck on the freeway.

Mets or Yankees?

traderumor
10-24-2012, 12:36 PM
Mets or Yankees?
I would say Mets. The Yankees do risky things and they either work or they eat the money. The Mets do risky things and it blows up on them.

Scrap Irony
10-24-2012, 01:21 PM
Mets or Yankees?

In order of likelihood (IMO):
1. Mets
2. Yankees
3. LA Dodgers
4. LA Angels
5. Boston
6. Detroit
7. Philadelphia
8. Toronto
9. Baltimore
10. Seattle

RedsBaron
10-24-2012, 01:46 PM
Hamilton will end up in New York or perhaps LA.

Which will be interesting like a car wreck on the freeway.

For Josh's sake I hope not. NY or LA would probably be the two worst places he could wind up, given his personal struggles. Frankly, the franchises in those cities would be nuts to sign him.

Scrap Irony
10-24-2012, 02:09 PM
Hamilton has, IMO, a limited number of spots that "make sense." Seattle, I suppose, might work. Milwaukee would be a nice fit, relatively speaking. Both need offense and would gladly overlook his penchant for throwing teammates and coaches under the bud. So, sadly, would St. Louis, though they already have a nice nucleus of productive OFers.

Kansas City would be interesting-- he could very well vault that team to the playoffs (assuming many of their youngsters pan out). Signing with Houston would be poetic, though there wouldn't be anything around him at all. Neither Chicago team makes sense. Tampa can't afford him.

San Diego might be a nice spot-- it's a relaxed town, and he'd be in the middle of a (likely) competitive team. Colorado doesn't need any OFers. Pittsburgh would love him, but he'd have to move to LF. That's a maybe.

There's just not a great fit for a guy with as much baggage as he has.

UKFlounder
10-24-2012, 02:27 PM
Is he a bit too old to try to take a 1 year deal somewhere just to re-establish his value and go at free agency again next year?

RedsBaron
10-24-2012, 02:48 PM
Is he a bit too old to try to take a 1 year deal somewhere just to re-establish his value and go at free agency again next year?

It obviously would be a risk for him to do that. He turns 32 next May and the general belief is that Josh is an "old 32" to be, given the abuse he put his body through while he was on drugs, and the reckless way he plays now.
Incidentally, I looked up his Hall of Fame Monitor Score-it is now 72 (the average member of the HOF has a score of 100). When you look up his similarity scores, none of the ten most similar batters and only one of the ten most similar batters through age 31 made the HOF (Earl Averill is the sole Hall of Famer). The second most similar batter, ignoring age, is Joey Votto.
It wouldn't shock me if Josh Hamilton put up HOF quality numbers for the next five seasons and thereby locked up a spot in the HOF. Unfortunately it wouldn't shock me if he suffered a relapse or significant injury and never had another HOF quality season either.
I do wish him the very best but I have no way of knowing if he will attain it.

mbgrayson
10-24-2012, 03:29 PM
Is he a bit too old to try to take a 1 year deal somewhere just to re-establish his value and go at free agency again next year?

I don't think he will do this. In six MLB seasons since he came back, he has hit .304/.363/.549 for an .913 OPS, with 27 HRs/year, and has averaged playing 122 games per year. In 2012 with Texas, he played in 148 games and hit .285/.354/.577 for an .930 OPS with 43 HRs. There is nothing he needs to "re-establish". In one year, he will be a year older, and he risks the chance that his market value will decline. He WILL get a good multi-year deal from someone.

mth123
10-24-2012, 10:08 PM
I'm guessing the LA Dodgers or Philly, with the Red Sox the most likely AL team.

Chip R
10-24-2012, 11:46 PM
I'm guessing the LA Dodgers or Philly, with the Red Sox the most likely AL team.

Oh, I don't think he'd ever go to Philly. They would just be brutal on him whenever he fails.

REDREAD
10-25-2012, 02:22 AM
Perhaps, just perhaps, the Reds traded him because they wanted pitching. .

I'm willing to trade anyone if it improves the team. Targeting Volquez in a trade of Hamilton was a huge mistake. If Wayne had actually gotten a good pitcher in return, I wouldn't be complaining.

It seems a lot of energy is spent rationalizing why trading Josh was such a brilliant idea at the time.. he was antisocial, etc, etc.. All these excuses because on a talent level, the trade made no sense on the day it was made.
Kind of silly that people worry that Hamilton could relapse and be out of baseball, yet no worries about trading for a pitcher that struggled with control throughout his entire career, was more potential than results, and ended up being a roid user..

If the Reds wanted to trade Josh for pitching.. fine.. they should've actually gotten good pitching though..

GAC
10-25-2012, 06:08 AM
I say the Red Sox. Remember... they unloaded about $260M in payroll this summer. ;)

Chip R
10-25-2012, 10:07 AM
I'm willing to trade anyone if it improves the team. Targeting Volquez in a trade of Hamilton was a huge mistake. If Wayne had actually gotten a good pitcher in return, I wouldn't be complaining.

It seems a lot of energy is spent rationalizing why trading Josh was such a brilliant idea at the time.. he was antisocial, etc, etc.. All these excuses because on a talent level, the trade made no sense on the day it was made.
Kind of silly that people worry that Hamilton could relapse and be out of baseball, yet no worries about trading for a pitcher that struggled with control throughout his entire career, was more potential than results, and ended up being a roid user..

If the Reds wanted to trade Josh for pitching.. fine.. they should've actually gotten good pitching though..

All of this is your opinion only and hindsight. In the real world, you don't have a crystal ball to know how players will do on the future. You can only deal with the information that you have at the time.

REDREAD
10-25-2012, 10:30 AM
All of this is your opinion only and hindsight. In the real world, you don't have a crystal ball to know how players will do on the future. You can only deal with the information that you have at the time.

Yes, and at the time, I hated the trade.

Funny thing is, even in hindsight, some people refuse to acknowledge this trade was a mistake (This is true of other trades too).. The justification is always "I liked this trade at the time, based on my personal opinions".. I guess there's no such thing as a bad trade by that criteria.

Again, I see "what-ifs" being used in hindsight.. the same people (maybe not you, I can't remember) that loved Josh in his first year suddenly did a 180 as soon as he was traded.. Josh went from "the greatest Rule V pickup ever" to a "Timebomb about to relapse at any time that was the worst clubhouse cancer ever".. Yes, I'm exaggerating.

I hated the trade at the time. Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves). This trade was rightfully a big nail in his coffin.

Chip R
10-25-2012, 10:46 AM
Yes, and at the time, I hated the trade.

Funny thing is, even in hindsight, some people refuse to acknowledge this trade was a mistake (This is true of other trades too).. The justification is always "I liked this trade at the time, based on my personal opinions".. I guess there's no such thing as a bad trade by that criteria.

Again, I see "what-ifs" being used in hindsight.. the same people (maybe not you, I can't remember) that loved Josh in his first year suddenly did a 180 as soon as he was traded.. Josh went from "the greatest Rule V pickup ever" to a "Timebomb about to relapse at any time that was the worst clubhouse cancer ever".. Yes, I'm exaggerating.

I hated the trade at the time. Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves). This trade was rightfully a big nail in his coffin.

That's fine if you hated the trade at the time. Again, it's your opinion. Others hated it too. Others thought it would work out for the Reds. The Rangers got the best of the deal and there's no denying it. But don't say that it was a no-brainer at the time.

The Rangers don't seem to want him back. It's certain that the Reds aren't to blame for the Rangers not wanting him back. Some guys aren't a good fit in one place then they go elsewhere and everything is fine. But when you go to more than one team and they don't want you back, it's just possible that it's not the team that's the problem for whatever reason.

REDREAD
10-25-2012, 12:52 PM
That's fine if you hated the trade at the time. Again, it's your opinion. Others hated it too. Others thought it would work out for the Reds. The Rangers got the best of the deal and there's no denying it. But don't say that it was a no-brainer at the time.

The Rangers don't seem to want him back. It's certain that the Reds aren't to blame for the Rangers not wanting him back. Some guys aren't a good fit in one place then they go elsewhere and everything is fine. But when you go to more than one team and they don't want you back, it's just possible that it's not the team that's the problem for whatever reason.

Well, just because the Rangers don't want him back doesn't mean he's a bad clubhouse person or a headcase. He's probably asking for a ton of money (and I don't blame him).. When Pete Rose (and others ) left as a FA, one could say the Reds didn't want them back.. truth is, they didn't want to pay for them. Sometimes clubs have sour grapes when a FA leaves them for more money.

Honestly, if the Reds traded Jay Bruce and/or Votto for Volquez instead of Hamilton, there'd probably be the same people defending that "it seemed like a good idea at the time". That's just the nature of message boards. Heck, I have done that in the past as well.

Wonderful Monds
10-25-2012, 07:02 PM
Well, just because the Rangers don't want him back doesn't mean he's a bad clubhouse person or a headcase. He's probably asking for a ton of money (and I don't blame him).. When Pete Rose (and others ) left as a FA, one could say the Reds didn't want them back.. truth is, they didn't want to pay for them. Sometimes clubs have sour grapes when a FA leaves them for more money.

Honestly, if the Reds traded Jay Bruce and/or Votto for Volquez instead of Hamilton, there'd probably be the same people defending that "it seemed like a good idea at the time". That's just the nature of message boards. Heck, I have done that in the past as well.
The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

RedsBaron
10-25-2012, 08:20 PM
The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

If the Rangers said that they are nuts!

Brutus
10-25-2012, 08:27 PM
The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

It wasn't really the Rangers that said that. It was "one club official," quoted anonymously, that said it.

Hard to say what the club's actual stance, collectively, is on Hamilton based on the anonymous hyperbole of one source.

Wonderful Monds
10-25-2012, 08:38 PM
It wasn't really the Rangers that said that. It was "one club official," quoted anonymously, that said it.

Hard to say what the club's actual stance, collectively, is on Hamilton based on the anonymous hyperbole of one source.

I read it later attributed to Jon Daniels.

Brutus
10-25-2012, 09:46 PM
I read it later attributed to Jon Daniels.

I think that was nothing more than speculation. They certainly aren't going to put that in print if it were him. It's certainly possible he's the one that said it, but they'll never confirm that.

REDREAD
10-26-2012, 05:29 PM
The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

One "unnamed source" in the Ranger's organization said that.
Could just be sour grapes.. I remember how PO'ed people were when Mercker said that he'd stay in Cincy for left, then signed with the Cards because he said they had a better chance of winning. Mercker wasn't really popular at that point.

They know Hamilton is gone to FA. If Hamilton was such a drain on the team, why didn't they trade him last offseason and get something for him? Probably because he's very useful for a contending team.

Revering4Blue
10-26-2012, 08:39 PM
Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves).


Not to stray too far off topic, but Wayne K. did land Arroyo for WMP--and I hated that deal at the time--and, of course, Brandon Phillips for pennies on the dollar.

Sure, Wayne K. made several mistakes, but if we are going to list the best Reds trades of the past decade--admittedly, not much there--the aforementioned deals have to be at or near the top of the list. Hopefully, the Latos deal will someday be mentioned in the same light.

For the record, I wasn't thrilled with the Hamilton/Volquez deal at the time, but I have to agree with Chip that it was entirely justifiable given the circumstances at the time.

Chip R
10-26-2012, 09:07 PM
I could see Hamilton winding up in SEA or PIT or KC. Less pressure in those places and he could be the guy to turn their programs around.