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View Full Version : As a Non-NFL Lover, why do the Bengals suck so much?



RedTruck
10-22-2012, 12:29 AM
I don't know much about football to be quite honest. I follow the bengals, because there cincinnati, and i love all things cincinnati. That said, I love baseball much more.

Regardless of all that. For a non nfl knowledgeable person, like myself, can anyone explain why the Bengals have sucked so much this decade, and why there isn't more commitment to make this team better?

Because, I know there are dominant teams like the Steelers and Patriots who have been dominant for decades and have been a "staple" for quality in the NFL. Now why is it so difficult for the Bengals to achieve this?

Thanks:beerme:

Gizmo
10-22-2012, 01:12 AM
lack of caring from the top. they make their money, that's all they care about. the Bengals put less money and time into scouting, facilities, etc. than any team in the league, they have one of the smallest payrolls in the league, and in the next year or so, will actually be forced to spend more to meet the low cap that's put on player salaries.

westofyou
10-22-2012, 01:12 AM
http://gridironfans.com/forums/attachments/latest-nfl-headlines/19025d1299957535-bengals-owner-mike-brown-calls-nfls-offer-brown.png

Stray
10-22-2012, 01:57 AM
The Bengals haven't sucked in recent years. We're probably around the middle of the pack in the NFL.

You need good players to win in the NFL. The Steelers don't miss on players very often. For a while in the 90s and early 2000s the Bengals were missing a LOT more than we were hitting. Screwing up a top draft pick in the NFL can be devastating and take a long time to recover from. The reason we're better now is because we are drafting better.

RedTruck
10-22-2012, 02:26 AM
The Bengals haven't sucked in recent years. We're probably around the middle of the pack in the NFL.

You need good players to win in the NFL. The Steelers don't miss on players very often. For a while in the 90s and early 2000s the Bengals were missing a LOT more than we were hitting. Screwing up a top draft pick in the NFL can be devastating and take a long time to recover from. The reason we're better now is because we are drafting better.

Hasn't it been like 20 something years since the Bengals won a playoff game?

Also why is Marvin Lewis still the coach..I know dusty has his haters for various reasons, but at least he has taken a team from zero to 50 in a few years time. I know Marvin has taken this team to a similar route, but have lost quite a few more playoff games in the process.

Also, do any of you think there's a realistic chance of the Bengals ever moving out of Cincinnati if the struggles continue?

RedTruck
10-22-2012, 02:28 AM
lack of caring from the top. they make their money, that's all they care about. the Bengals put less money and time into scouting, facilities, etc. than any team in the league, they have one of the smallest payrolls in the league, and in the next year or so, will actually be forced to spend more to meet the low cap that's put on player salaries.

Why isn't there a bigger outcry than? Why don't fans protest with there dollar and let them understand that "us" fans won't take this neglect any longer.

If it's as bad as it seems, I would love to see a strike occur from us fans leaving the stadium completely barren to let the management up top know that this has to stop.

dougdirt
10-22-2012, 02:36 AM
lack of caring from the top. they make their money, that's all they care about. the Bengals put less money and time into scouting, facilities, etc. than any team in the league, they have one of the smallest payrolls in the league, and in the next year or so, will actually be forced to spend more to meet the low cap that's put on player salaries.

I don't think it is for a lack of caring at all. It is flat out stubbornness. Mike Brown, I believe, wants more than anything to win. But, he wants to do it his way. He wants to be the guy calling the shots. That means no GM. That means a small scouting staff.

camisadelgolf
10-22-2012, 06:32 AM
http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1562012
Every Bengals fan should read this.

Todd Gack
10-22-2012, 06:37 AM
Bengals fans could just 'quit' on the franchise considering they've essentially 'quit' on you. I made this decision probably 4-5 years ago and I've never looked back. But of course, I'm not a superfan so you won't have many people who'll do the same and continue to support the worthless old man known as Mike Brown.

UKFlounder
10-22-2012, 07:09 AM
Why do the Cubs suck in baseball?

As for protesting, etc, that all was tried in the mid to late 90s & early 2000s and I think people are too tired to try it again.

Marvin did take them from a 2 win team in 2002 to a couple of 8-8 seasons & then the playoffs in 2005 (first time since 1990) and that type of progress made a lot of people happier - progress was being made.

Since then however, it has been a yo-yo ride - playoffs in 2005, mediocrity in 2006 & 07, awful in 2008 (but Palmer was hurt), playoffs in 2009, awful in 2010, playoffs in 2011, and now 3-4 so far this year.

They have not actually sucked as much recently as they did in the 90s, but have not been consistently good either. It's been mostly mediocre with a couple of spikes better & worse along the way. Protests & stuff usually happen after several years of 4-12 type seasons and the Bengals have avoided that type of stretch lately. Does anyone really want to protest a team that did make the playoffs last year?

It's just so much "meh" right now

Chip R
10-22-2012, 09:18 AM
Also, do any of you think there's a realistic chance of the Bengals ever moving out of Cincinnati if the struggles continue?

Teams don't move because of a lack of success. It's because of stadium issues. The Bengals definitely do not have stadium issues and the Browns want the team to stay there.


Why isn't there a bigger outcry than? Why don't fans protest with there dollar and let them understand that "us" fans won't take this neglect any longer.

If it's as bad as it seems, I would love to see a strike occur from us fans leaving the stadium completely barren to let the management up top know that this has to stop.

When the Bengals play poorly on a consistent basis, the stadium is pretty much half-empty for most games. Then they start winning again and the stadium fills up.

top6
10-22-2012, 10:35 AM
Since Marvin got here, the Bengals have been just as good as the Reds under Castellini--i.e., competitive, sometimes able to slip into the playoffs, but unable to do anything once there, generally unable to ever win a big game, and completely outclassed by their rivals in the division.

There's no way anyone can say the Bengals have been worse than the Reds in recent years. The only thing the Reds have is a history of success, albeit one that dates back decades.

WMR
10-22-2012, 11:16 AM
Horrible ownership... Beyond horrible, actually.

Dom Heffner
10-22-2012, 11:24 AM
Horrible ownership... Beyond horrible, actually.

I got killed for saying this last year.

They hire their entire family. You can't...I mean the odds of each and every one of your family being the best for the job....come on now.

UKFlounder
10-22-2012, 11:50 AM
Good point, but I think the Bengals "bad seasons" are much worse than the Reds "bad seasons" and that may make the down years linger in our memory longer. 4-11-1 and 4-12 are much worse percentage wise than anything the Reds have done lately, and then they end up in with a top 5 5 draft pick as well, which may matter since the NFL draft is so popular.

Also, the Bengals did have a stretch of players getting in trouble with the law. That has mostly stopped recently, but I think it created a bad image that still stains the franchise a bit.

The Bengals also became a bit of a national target for a while, jokes on Tonight Show, etc, and that probably still adds to their reputation. The Reds really haven't been on that level since the days of Schottzie - they had bad ownership baseball-wise, but not as much of the embarrassing off field stuff or jokes.

You are right abou tthe actual performances being similar, but the perceptions are not


Since Marvin got here, the Bengals have been just as good as the Reds under Castellini--i.e., competitive, sometimes able to slip into the playoffs, but unable to do anything once there, generally unable to ever win a big game, and completely outclassed by their rivals in the division.

There's no way anyone can say the Bengals have been worse than the Reds in recent years. The only thing the Reds have is a history of success, albeit one that dates back decades.

Stray
10-22-2012, 11:53 AM
Hasn't it been like 20 something years since the Bengals won a playoff game?

Also why is Marvin Lewis still the coach..I know dusty has his haters for various reasons, but at least he has taken a team from zero to 50 in a few years time. I know Marvin has taken this team to a similar route, but have lost quite a few more playoff games in the process.

Also, do any of you think there's a realistic chance of the Bengals ever moving out of Cincinnati if the struggles continue?

Yes, it's been a long time. It used to be a lot worse than it is now though, anyone who follows can at least tell that the team is trending in the right direction for the first time in a long time. And under Marvin we haven't been terrible, we've been about a middle of the pack NFL team.

Like someone else posted, it's not like the Reds have been more successful in recent years than the Bengals. There's a lot of parallels to be honest. In 2010 the Reds beat up on bad teams and lost to good teams, then had an early exit in the playoffs. In 2011 that's exactly what the Bengals did. Neither franchise has had any postseason success to speak of for quite some time.

Why is Marvin the coach? If you ask me it's because he's about as good as we have been able to get for a while. Just like big name free agent players, big name coaches don't exactly have working for Mike Brown high on their list of things to do.

With all of the really bad, it's still going in the right direction right now. We're missing talent at certain positions and it's hurting us. We're also inexperienced at spots which is also hurting us. Prime example is what Dick Lebeau did to Jay Gruden last night...just outclassed him from a coaching perspective.

Ideally the team continues to mature and either Gruden or Zimmer takes over the HC job while Marvin moves to a FO position where he can be here to put the team together. For all of his faults you cannot say Marvin hasn't done a good job at raising the level of talent all over the team. Whether or not this happens is anyone's guess, but that would be my hope.

EDavis44
10-22-2012, 12:07 PM
From an offensive standpoint, green is great, Gresham is good, BJE is maybe average. Problem is that Dalton will never be great.

Stray
10-22-2012, 12:12 PM
From an offensive standpoint, green is great, Gresham is good, BJE is maybe average. Problem is that Dalton will never be great.

It's way too early to say that either way.

EDavis44
10-22-2012, 12:30 PM
It's way too early to say that either way.

Disagree. He doesn't have to be great, he could still be good with the right weapons.

Stray
10-22-2012, 01:03 PM
Disagree. He doesn't have to be great, he could still be good with the right weapons.

How many QBs look great 1 and 1/2 seasons out of college? Rodgers was warming the bench, Brees was a backup, Eli was surely a bust and horrible draft pick, Big Ben was a game manager, and I can't think of any others.

It's entirely too early to tell on Dalton. If anything he's ahead of schedule.

dougdirt
10-22-2012, 05:43 PM
Andy Dalton can be Matt Hasselback. He is never going to be more than that, he simply doesn't have that in him. You can win with that kind of guy, but that kind of guy needs weapons around him.

Stray
10-22-2012, 06:36 PM
Andy Dalton can be Matt Hasselback. He is never going to be more than that, he simply doesn't have that in him. You can win with that kind of guy, but that kind of guy needs weapons around him.

You could very well be right, but how in the heck does anyone know that at this point? Cam was the closest thing to a sure thing recently and he's struggling big time in his 2nd year.

I don't think there's even a ceiling for Dalton right now. He'll never have John Elway's arm or be 4 inches taller, but people said the same crap about Brees for many years. He could end up being the best QB in Bengals franchise history or he could be out as a starter in a couple of years. I think all of that kinda talk is crazy at this point.

dougdirt
10-22-2012, 07:35 PM
You could very well be right, but how in the heck does anyone know that at this point? Cam was the closest thing to a sure thing recently and he's struggling big time in his 2nd year.

I don't think there's even a ceiling for Dalton right now. He'll never have John Elway's arm or be 4 inches taller, but people said the same crap about Brees for many years. He could end up being the best QB in Bengals franchise history or he could be out as a starter in a couple of years. I think all of that kinda talk is crazy at this point.

When you watch Cam Newton, you can see the upside. That doesn't mean he will reach it, but it is there. With a guy like Dalton, the upside is Matt Hasselback. I mean sure, I guess he could turn into Drew Brees, but it is incredibly unlikely. Dalton is a guy who has good qualities across the board, but none of them are great (at least physical ones).

KoryMac5
10-22-2012, 07:53 PM
Yeah I think the Hasselback comparison is spot on. Not a guy who will bring you back but a guy who won't lose you a game either. We are in yr two with Dalton and I will take that out of him at this point, however he needs to start showing something in the later part of this season cause I really don't want to waste AJ Green on Matt Hasselback.

cincrazy
10-22-2012, 08:05 PM
Two of the three Bengals playoff appearances have been mirages. In 2011 and 2009 they rode terribly easy schedules to playoff berths, and were easily dispatched of once they arrived. In 2005, they actually had a very good team, but any hope was ruined when Palmer's knee went out.

Mike Brown sucks. This franchise sucks. And I don't care about them any more, because they don't care about me. Marvin Lewis has been with the Bengals for 10 years. And is 1-9 against his archrivals, the Steelers, AT HOME. Tell me where that's acceptable anywhere else.

I'm not blaming Marvin Lewis, He's done a great job, considering what he's had to work with. This team will never win anything with the Brown family in charge. And that's just the way it is.

Todd Gack
10-22-2012, 09:05 PM
Two of the three Bengals playoff appearances have been mirages. In 2011 and 2009 they rode terribly easy schedules to playoff berths, and were easily dispatched of once they arrived. In 2005, they actually had a very good team, but any hope was ruined when Palmer's knee went out.

Mike Brown sucks. This franchise sucks. And I don't care about them any more, because they don't care about me. Marvin Lewis has been with the Bengals for 10 years. And is 1-9 against his archrivals, the Steelers, AT HOME. Tell me where that's acceptable anywhere else.

I'm not blaming Marvin Lewis, He's done a great job, considering what he's had to work with. This team will never win anything with the Brown family in charge. And that's just the way it is.

2005 was also in the playoffs because of an easy schedule. The defense was awful that year too.

dougdirt
10-22-2012, 09:09 PM
2005 was also in the playoffs because of an easy schedule. The defense was awful that year too.

That team didn't luck into the playoffs. The defense wasn't good, but they led the league in turnovers I believe and that paid off big time during the regular season.

Todd Gack
10-22-2012, 09:15 PM
That team didn't luck into the playoffs. The defense wasn't good, but they led the league in turnovers I believe and that paid off big time during the regular season.

Have you seen a list of those QB's they beat? Woeful.

dougdirt
10-22-2012, 09:24 PM
Have you seen a list of those QB's they beat? Woeful.

You don't win 11 games in the NFL because of an easy schedule.

camisadelgolf
10-23-2012, 04:13 AM
You don't win 11 games in the NFL because of an easy schedule.
True. That's where the lucky breaks come in.

Redhook
10-23-2012, 07:36 AM
I'm not blaming Marvin Lewis, He's done a great job, considering what he's had to work with. This team will never win anything with the Brown family in charge. And that's just the way it is.

This sums it up.

RiverRat13
10-23-2012, 10:23 AM
http://gridironfans.com/forums/attachments/latest-nfl-headlines/19025d1299957535-bengals-owner-mike-brown-calls-nfls-offer-brown.png

Threadkiller...

Stray
10-23-2012, 11:15 AM
When you watch Cam Newton, you can see the upside. That doesn't mean he will reach it, but it is there. With a guy like Dalton, the upside is Matt Hasselback. I mean sure, I guess he could turn into Drew Brees, but it is incredibly unlikely. Dalton is a guy who has good qualities across the board, but none of them are great (at least physical ones).

When I see Cam I see a big arm and a fast runner, he's not accurate and he doesn't make good decisions. He's also not shown any leadership at all.

I think Dalton has a huge upside. When our offense is rolling he's spreading the ball around all over the place and is great. The issues I see with him now are when he gets confused by the defense. That's what Lebeau did the Gruden and Dalton on Sunday Night. Just about every 3 step drop ended with panic when he saw his 1st few options weren't there. That'll only get better with experience.

I'm not saying he's gonna be Drew Brees or anything, just saying that I don't think it's fair try to say what he is or isn't yet. He has a lot of ups and downs, that's not uncommon for a guy halfway through his 2nd year.

Todd Gack
10-23-2012, 11:27 AM
You don't win 11 games in the NFL because of an easy schedule.

Dante Culpepper
Brett Favre
Kyle Orton
Steve McNair
Anthony Wright
David Carr
Trent Dilfer
Charlie Frye
Jeff Garcia
Ben Roethlisberger


Only Ben was ranked in the Top 18 of QB ratings that year. That's a horrid list.

dougdirt
10-23-2012, 12:56 PM
11 wins. In the NFL. You don't luck into that. You don't easy schedule your way into that. The NFL doesn't make easy schedules. This isn't college football. There really aren't patsies out there. Are there easier schedules than others? Of course. But you need to play well each week to win. There is none of this "we are just flat out better than them and can play flat and win" stuff going on. Not in the NFL.

Todd Gack
10-23-2012, 02:07 PM
11 wins. In the NFL. You don't luck into that. You don't easy schedule your way into that. The NFL doesn't make easy schedules. This isn't college football. There really aren't patsies out there. Are there easier schedules than others? Of course. But you need to play well each week to win. There is none of this "we are just flat out better than them and can play flat and win" stuff going on. Not in the NFL.

THe NFL is DESIGNED for parity. The Bengals played the 3rd place teams in each the AFC West/East that year. They played the NFC north whose division had just 1 winning team the season before and a very average division that next year. They lost to the Colts and Jaguars that year who were very good teams and went 1-2 vs the Steelers.

There are a lot of teams that luck into winning in the NFL each year. It's the nature of the NFL where bad rules and parity rule the league.

dougdirt
10-23-2012, 02:18 PM
The Bengals went 1-1 vs the Steelers that year. Sorry, but counting a game where they lost their starting QB and one of the starting WR on the first play of the game doesn't really count for me.

I don't care enough to keep coming back to argue this, but I will just leave it with this: I don't care how the schedules are made to set up parity, last years record doesn't mean much for how the team will be the next year.

Benihana
10-23-2012, 04:51 PM
Bengals "The Greatest Fans" Movie Trailer (2002) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4r4aeU9tY&noredirect=1)

Redsfaithful
10-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Did that movie actually get made? That looks incredible.

Todd Gack
10-23-2012, 07:45 PM
The Bengals went 1-1 vs the Steelers that year. Sorry, but counting a game where they lost their starting QB and one of the starting WR on the first play of the game doesn't really count for me.

I don't care enough to keep coming back to argue this, but I will just leave it with this: I don't care how the schedules are made to set up parity, last years record doesn't mean much for how the team will be the next year.

Let's just say if you consider that 2005 Bengals team a great team. . . .. ????, then the fans like you are even more delusional than I thought.

dougdirt
10-23-2012, 07:56 PM
No one said great. I said they didn't luck into the playoffs or even luck into being good. They were a good team. They weren't a great team. No one said anything close to that.

Yachtzee
10-23-2012, 11:30 PM
When I see Cam I see a big arm and a fast runner, he's not accurate and he doesn't make good decisions. He's also not shown any leadership at all.

I think Dalton has a huge upside. When our offense is rolling he's spreading the ball around all over the place and is great. The issues I see with him now are when he gets confused by the defense. That's what Lebeau did the Gruden and Dalton on Sunday Night. Just about every 3 step drop ended with panic when he saw his 1st few options weren't there. That'll only get better with experience.

I'm not saying he's gonna be Drew Brees or anything, just saying that I don't think it's fair try to say what he is or isn't yet. He has a lot of ups and downs, that's not uncommon for a guy halfway through his 2nd year.

I think Dalton can be great. Last season he had 4 fourth quarter comebacks and showed a heck of a lot more poise and leadership at the QB position than Palmer ever showed. I think the big problem has been the injuries to the OL and the lack of a running game. The current losing streak has a lot to do with teams figuring out that they don't have to respect the Bengals' running game. They can drop extra players in coverage to double and triple up on Green. Gresham has had problems with the drops too.

BurgervilleBuck
10-31-2012, 11:14 PM
Also, do any of you think there's a realistic chance of the Bengals ever moving out of Cincinnati if the struggles continue?
From your lips to God's ears.

BurgervilleBuck
10-31-2012, 11:26 PM
For me, the Bengals greatness ended the day Paul Brown died and Mikey assumed control. Instead of football people. the Bengals FO consists of bean counters and lawyers, including the clown commissioner who negotiated their sweetheart lease.

I see folks comparing the Bengals and the Reds and I just don't buy it. The Reds have more experience in their front office, an owner that cares about the team and its heritage, and character. Counter that with an owner who steadfastly refuses to even bring his team into the 1990s, remains aloof, and pays himself for being a GM.

When you walk into GABP, you know it's a ballpark dedicated to the Reds and its fans. When you walk into PBS, it's as anonymous as a parking garage.

The Bengals can rot and anyone dumb enough to pay for tickets, gear, or beer there are the proverbial fools being parted from their money.

Stray
11-01-2012, 01:18 PM
For me, the Bengals greatness ended the day Paul Brown died and Mikey assumed control. Instead of football people. the Bengals FO consists of bean counters and lawyers, including the clown commissioner who negotiated their sweetheart lease.

I see folks comparing the Bengals and the Reds and I just don't buy it. The Reds have more experience in their front office, an owner that cares about the team and its heritage, and character. Counter that with an owner who steadfastly refuses to even bring his team into the 1990s, remains aloof, and pays himself for being a GM.

When you walk into GABP, you know it's a ballpark dedicated to the Reds and its fans. When you walk into PBS, it's as anonymous as a parking garage.

The Bengals can rot and anyone dumb enough to pay for tickets, gear, or beer there are the proverbial fools being parted from their money.

I wasn't comparing the people running each team, just pointing out that the Reds haven't exactly been more successful than the Bengals in recent years. Their success has been very similar.

BurgervilleBuck
11-03-2012, 01:55 PM
I wasn't comparing the people running each team, just pointing out that the Reds haven't exactly been more successful than the Bengals in recent years. Their success has been very similar.

But I see far greater potential from the Reds than the Bengals. We have an owner who cares about the team and its history and even pays for his own video board upgrades.

The Bengals... well... let them move somewhere and put an MLS team in that stadium.

Yachtzee
11-05-2012, 05:26 PM
For me, the Bengals greatness ended the day Paul Brown died and Mikey assumed control. Instead of football people. the Bengals FO consists of bean counters and lawyers, including the clown commissioner who negotiated their sweetheart lease.

I see folks comparing the Bengals and the Reds and I just don't buy it. The Reds have more experience in their front office, an owner that cares about the team and its heritage, and character. Counter that with an owner who steadfastly refuses to even bring his team into the 1990s, remains aloof, and pays himself for being a GM.

When you walk into GABP, you know it's a ballpark dedicated to the Reds and its fans. When you walk into PBS, it's as anonymous as a parking garage.

The Bengals can rot and anyone dumb enough to pay for tickets, gear, or beer there are the proverbial fools being parted from their money.

Actually, Mike Brown has been involved in running the team since its inception, and Paul Brown was just as cheap as his son. The difference is that Paul was a football genius.

Todd Gack
11-06-2012, 05:27 PM
Actually, Mike Brown has been involved in running the team since its inception, and Paul Brown was just as cheap as his son. The difference is that Paul was a football genius.

That rid the organization of Bill Walsh because he couldn't stand that someone else was supposedly smarter than he was.

Yachtzee
11-06-2012, 09:41 PM
That rid the organization of Bill Walsh because he couldn't stand that someone else was supposedly smarter than he was.

I don't think that was the case. I think it was more that PB wanted to reward a more senior coach and wanted Walsh to wait his turn. It was more his weird fixation on loyalty that got in the way of his better judgment. The Browns seem to have an almost pathological sense of loyalty that I think stems from Paul Brown's experience of getting fired by Art Modell.

Todd Gack
11-07-2012, 11:11 AM
I don't think that was the case. I think it was more that PB wanted to reward a more senior coach and wanted Walsh to wait his turn. It was more his weird fixation on loyalty that got in the way of his better judgment. The Browns seem to have an almost pathological sense of loyalty that I think stems from Paul Brown's experience of getting fired by Art Modell.

Bill Walsh thanked Paul Brown for giving him an opportunity to coach, but he stated Paul took all the credit when the offenses he created and produced did so well.

BurgervilleBuck
11-07-2012, 07:24 PM
Actually, Mike Brown has been involved in running the team since its inception, and Paul Brown was just as cheap as his son. The difference is that Paul was a football genius.

I don't think I didn't accuse PB of not being cheap. Or low frill. What I'm saying is that his legacy are running a team to maximize profit at the expense of performance.

RiverRat13
11-08-2012, 08:07 AM
I think it was Lapham who said that when PB was being cheap, the players viewed it as old school. But when Mikey's cheap, the players just see it as a rich dude being cheap.

westofyou
11-08-2012, 10:08 AM
I think it was Lapham who said that when PB was being cheap, the players viewed it as old school. But when Mikey's cheap, the players just see it as a rich dude being cheap.

Paul Brown was cheap in a different game, a different business, his son is not in the same smaller business that 60s/70s football was in

In short PB got a nice life out of it, MBs family for generations will be set up

Yachtzee
11-10-2012, 02:11 PM
Paul Brown was cheap in a different game, a different business, his son is not in the same smaller business that 60s/70s football was in

In short PB got a nice life out of it, MBs family for generations will be set up

True, but the Brown family's only business is football. Most NFL owners today made huge amounts of money outside football and still have profitable non-football businesses. They don't need their NFL operations to be profitable to earn a living.

MB and his family are extremely frugal. Some of it comes from PB. I think some of it comes from how they arranged the transfer of the Bengals' ownership from PB to MB, where PB sold majority interest in the team to another party on condition that MB had rights to buy the interest back at a later time, mainly to avoid the steep estate taxes they'd have to pay. I believe MB had to spend many years scrimping and saving just to get the money to buy the majority interest back. Nowadays, I think the Brown family is in a much better position financially, but it's a problem of "old habits die hard." It's not like MB is out living the high life off his NFL profits. The guy is famous for driving his Chevy Lumina around Cincinnati for years. Also, much of the Brown family wealth is tied up in the Bengals as an asset. You could say that the Browns are worth $800 million because they own the Bengals, but really, the only way the actually get $800 million is when they sell the Bengals.

westofyou
11-10-2012, 06:56 PM
True, but the Brown family's only business is football. Most NFL owners today made huge amounts of money outside football and still have profitable non-football businesses. They don't need their NFL operations to be profitable to earn a living.

MB and his family are extremely frugal. Some of it comes from PB. I think some of it comes from how they arranged the transfer of the Bengals' ownership from PB to MB, where PB sold majority interest in the team to another party on condition that MB had rights to buy the interest back at a later time, mainly to avoid the steep estate taxes they'd have to pay. I believe MB had to spend many years scrimping and saving just to get the money to buy the majority interest back. Nowadays, I think the Brown family is in a much better position financially, but it's a problem of "old habits die hard." It's not like MB is out living the high life off his NFL profits. The guy is famous for driving his Chevy Lumina around Cincinnati for years. Also, much of the Brown family wealth is tied up in the Bengals as an asset. You could say that the Browns are worth $800 million because they own the Bengals, but really, the only way the actually get $800 million is when they sell the Bengals.

If they sold the team I'd party for a year

camisadelgolf
11-10-2012, 07:10 PM
I'm rooting for the Bengals to lose every game until they sell the team.

Stray
11-10-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm rooting for the Bengals to lose every game until they sell the team.

Why?

If the team were over sold it could leave our city with only one professional sports team. And it's not like Mike Brown is going to be losing money regardless, owning an NFL team is basically a money tree.

westofyou
11-10-2012, 10:30 PM
Why?

If the team were over sold it could leave our city with only one professional sports team. And it's not like Mike Brown is going to be losing money regardless, owning an NFL team is basically a money tree.

Sold doesn't imply move, it implies having an owner designed for today's NFL

camisadelgolf
11-11-2012, 05:15 AM
Why?

If the team were over sold it could leave our city with only one professional sports team. And it's not like Mike Brown is going to be losing money regardless, owning an NFL team is basically a money tree.
westofyou already covered it. Fyi the Reds and Bengals aren't the only professional teams in Cincinnati.

Stray
11-11-2012, 10:54 AM
Obviously a new owner wouldn't mean they'd definitely move, it just brings it into play. Regardless, it's not like Mike Brown is going to sell the team anyway. Cincinnati fans are overly dramatic in so many ways, the team used to be terrible then went all in with Carson. Mike didn't blow up Carson's knee or screw up his elbow, football did. Now we've rebuilt again and the future actually looks good. I think Mike has drafted well, made some really good coach signings, and I think he handled the Carson situation perfectly. Over the last 4 years or so you could argue that he's been among the best executives in football. How many teams are getting as much out of their drafts as we are?

But if you guys wanna root for losses until something that will never happen happens, then have fun with that I guess.

And please tell me you're not counting the Cyclones lol.

WMR
11-11-2012, 11:29 AM
The bengals aren't moving anytime soon no matter who the owner is. They got one of the sweetest stadium deals in the NFL.

westofyou
11-11-2012, 11:46 AM
Obviously a new owner wouldn't mean they'd definitely move, it just brings it into play. Regardless, it's not like Mike Brown is going to sell the team anyway. Cincinnati fans are overly dramatic in so many ways, the team used to be terrible then went all in with Carson. Mike didn't blow up Carson's knee or screw up his elbow, football did. Now we've rebuilt again and the future actually looks good. I think Mike has drafted well, made some really good coach signings, and I think he handled the Carson situation perfectly. Over the last 4 years or so you could argue that he's been among the best executives in football. How many teams are getting as much out of their drafts as we are?

But if you guys wanna root for losses until something that will never happen happens, then have fun with that I guess.

And please tell me you're not counting the Cyclones lol.

Defending Mike Brown?

No offense, but I've been a Bengal fan for almost 40 years, I'll never argue that Mike Brown is the best in anything other than making money

Redsfaithful
11-11-2012, 11:54 AM
I wish they would move. Probably the only way I could quit them.

sonny
11-11-2012, 12:58 PM
I wish they would move. Probably the only way I could quit them.

Quoted for truth. I wish I could not root for them, but I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for these knuckleheads.

Stray
11-11-2012, 01:19 PM
Defending Mike Brown?

No offense, but I've been a Bengal fan for almost 40 years, I'll never argue that Mike Brown is the best in anything other than making money

I'm not defending anyone, just stating the obvious. I'll never say he's a great owner because he's obviously not, but in his GM role he's been really really good as of late. If decades of hatred blind people to the obvious then I don't really know what there is to even discuss.

camisadelgolf
11-11-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm not defending anyone, just stating the obvious. I'll never say he's a great owner because he's obviously not, but in his GM role he's been really really good as of late. If decades of hatred blind people to the obvious then I don't really know what there is to even discuss.
I don't think you understand the definition of "defend". That's okay, though--I don't think Mike Brown does either. :evil:
It took Mike Brown over 15 years to produce a winning team. They were literally the worst team in the NFL over that time. It wasn't until the stadium deal--which legally bound the Bengals to be competitive--that the Bengals started to put together teams that weren't futile.

Over the last 4 years or so you could argue that he's been among the best executives in football. How many teams are getting as much out of their drafts as we are?
Probably more than half of them since the Bengals have a losing record over that time.

Redhook
11-11-2012, 08:11 PM
but in his GM role he's been really really good as of late.

I really can't believe I read the words above. Mike Brown has only been really really good at screwing the people of the Cincinnati area.

Yes, he's lucked into a few good drafts picks, but that's more of a blind squirrel finding a nut, yada yada yada. And the Carson deal, there's not a chance in the world that happens if the Jason Campbell didn't get hurt forcing their hand. I'm tickled to death how it turned out in the end, but the Raiders were the only team dumb enough to make an offer that even the obtuse, stubborn, and ignorant Mike Brown couldn't turn down.

I'm not even going to start into why, in my opinion, he isn't a really really good GM. It'd take me years to complete.

Stray
11-11-2012, 10:52 PM
I really can't believe I read the words above. Mike Brown has only been really really good at screwing the people of the Cincinnati area.

Yes, he's lucked into a few good drafts picks, but that's more of a blind squirrel finding a nut, yada yada yada. And the Carson deal, there's not a chance in the world that happens if the Jason Campbell didn't get hurt forcing their hand. I'm tickled to death how it turned out in the end, but the Raiders were the only team dumb enough to make an offer that even the obtuse, stubborn, and ignorant Mike Brown couldn't turn down.

I'm not even going to start into why, in my opinion, he isn't a really really good GM. It'd take me years to complete.

Just look up and down our roster at the impact players we have, most are dudes we drafted. You can luck into a few, you can't luck into a few years straight. Whatever it is that changed (I honestly don't know) has been for the better. We sent our 1st and 2nd round draft picks to the Pro Bowl last year...that's an incredible accomplishment imo.

QB's go down every year, there were a lot of people that said at the beginning of the year Mike Brown would be smart to hang onto Carson and wait for someone to get desperate rather than dump him off for nothing. I'm not gonna pretend that Mike's hardheadedness didn't play a factor in hanging onto him for as long as he did, but waiting on that desperate team was a massive boost for this franchise.

I know he's been bad a lot more than he's been good, but in the GM role Mike Brown has been really good of late. I can't explain it but something had to have changed. Whether it's Marvin getting more of a say on personnel or someone else...idk.

BurgervilleBuck
11-12-2012, 12:25 AM
Why?

If the team were over sold it could leave our city with only one professional sports team.
And..?

BurgervilleBuck
11-12-2012, 12:29 AM
And please tell me you're not counting the Cyclones lol.
They are a professional team. Minor league, yes, but professional.

And they have two more championships than the team you're defending.

Stray
11-12-2012, 10:12 AM
And..?

If it doesn't bother you then you're not a fan to begin with?


They are a professional team. Minor league, yes, but professional.

And they have two more championships than the team you're defending.

I realize we have a good minor league hockey team. There's no need to nitpick and derail the thread. When talking about cities and their professional sports teams most people count the big four, and we have two out of four.

Redsfaithful
11-12-2012, 10:51 AM
I know he's been bad a lot more than he's been good, but in the GM role Mike Brown has been really good of late. I can't explain it but something had to have changed. Whether it's Marvin getting more of a say on personnel or someone else...idk.

Bottom line is zero playoff wins.

Stray
11-12-2012, 11:06 AM
Bottom line is zero playoff wins.

I agree that sucks. Neither of our two teams have been able to get over that hump, even though both the Reds and Bengals have shown the ability to get there.

I think if they can keep giving themselves chances we'll eventually make a postseason run. Despite all the doom and gloomer Cincinnati fans, we have two young talented sports teams to root for. For as bad as things were for a really long time, I like where we're at now.

Redsfaithful
11-12-2012, 12:20 PM
The Reds are fine, I don't see the Bengals as having made any real improvements since about 2003. They've been an average NFL team since then, and I see no reason to believe they will take another step forward under Mike Brown.

WMR
11-12-2012, 12:28 PM
The bengals have gone from putrid to meh...

Hooray, I guess?

I just pray Katie has learned what not to do from watching her old man suck so badly these past decades...

Stray
11-12-2012, 01:38 PM
The Reds are fine, I don't see the Bengals as having made any real improvements since about 2003. They've been an average NFL team since then, and I see no reason to believe they will take another step forward under Mike Brown.

The Reds made the playoffs in 2010 and 2012, bounced in the first round each time. Prior to that you have to go back to 1995 to find a Cincinnati Reds playoff team. It's this perception that the Reds have become so much more successful than the Bengals that blows my mind. Historically speaking it's not even close, but in the last 20 years they've been pretty equal.

The Bengals made the playoffs in 2005, 2009 and 2011. Prior to 2003 they hadn't been to the playoffs since 1990. If that doesn't count as an improvement I'm not exactly sure what does. And we have a really young talented team, how is there not reason to believe they'll get better?

The infatuation with Mike Brown is another mind boggling thing to me. If he made being a Bengals fan that miserable for me I'd find a new team. Sports are supposed to be fun afterall.

Redsfaithful
11-12-2012, 01:55 PM
The Reds have made the playoffs 2 out of last 3 years, were dominant in the regular season this year in a way the Bengals haven't been since probably 1988, even with their star player going down for a significant stretch.

I'm hard on the Reds too, but MLB playoffs are a crapshoot, and they were fantastic over 162 games this year.

The Bengals aren't as young as they are made out to be. The defense is actually fairly old, look at the secondary.

They're currently 4-5, calling them really talented is a stretch. It looks like they'll be in the mix now after yesterday, and with the schedule coming up looking soft, but meh.

And I've given long thought to abandoning the Bengals, but that's just now how I work. I don't blame people who do jump ship though.

westofyou
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
You don't give up on a team because the owner is a hunk of deadwood.

But you lose interest, you find things to do on Sunday, you don't sweat the player moves because most of them are poor, you don't bother to mouth off to the Steeler fans anymore because your team can't beat theirs consistently, you think about Bill Walsh getting shafted, Tim Krumrie's ankle, Ki Jana Carter and Stanley Wilson and what could have been.

You long for the Ice Bowl game from 30 years ago, and the feeling of dominating.

Because it has hardly touched that vibe since then

Stray
11-12-2012, 02:17 PM
When I mention the youth I'm mainly talking about our impact players. Dalton, Green, Gresham, Atkins, Dunlap, Burfict...etc. With Atkins and Green you can make a strong case that they're both the best at their position in the entire NFL. With that kinda talented youth there's a good chance the team will improve with experience.

And fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I think you gotta judge a season's success based on making the playoffs and how you do when you get there. Barring injuries I think the Reds and the Bengals both have bright futures. Considering both sucked terribly for the majority of my life, I find the current state of the franchises pretty exciting.

camisadelgolf
11-12-2012, 04:51 PM
For this argument, it's not fair to compare the Bengals and Reds. The Reds have changed ownership and personnel a few times since Mike Brown took over. The current Reds brass has done a lot to make the Reds good--not just competitive--and that was in a relatively short amount of time.

In over 20 years, Mike Brown has put together only 3 winning seasons. And all 3 of those seasons came after the stadium deal that required the team to be competitive (and he still managed to get sued over it, thanks to a 12-36 start in PBS). He's terrible at putting together good teams. The quality of their roster and drafting didn't change until Marvin Lewis joined the organization, yet Lewis is the one we hear the fans yell about.

BurgervilleBuck
11-13-2012, 02:20 PM
If it doesn't bother you then you're not a fan to begin with?
No, I was a fan. But the Brown family have taken any sympathy or love I had for the team and the NFL. Now, I just don't care and I don't see the Bengals doing anything to change that, save for the team being sold to an owner who cares about winning. Say what you will about the Steelers or Ravens, but their owners are rather good at what they do.



I realize we have a good minor league hockey team. There's no need to nitpick and derail the thread. When talking about cities and their professional sports teams most people count the big four, and we have two out of four.
I wasn't nitpicking or derailing the thread. You brought up the Cyclones and I thought it was only fair to point out some truth. The 'clones are a professional team albeit a AA-equivalent minor league. I've experienced more fun and excitement watching them play than I have with the Bengals.