PDA

View Full Version : Reds Arb Eligibles



mdccclxix
10-25-2012, 10:33 AM
The Reds are next in our 2013 Arbitration Eligibles series. Matt Swartz's salary projections are below.

First time: Mat Latos ($4.6MM), Mike Leake ($2.9MM), Drew Stubbs ($2.9MM), Chris Heisey ($1.3MM), Logan Ondrusek ($900K), Alfredo Simon ($800K)
Second time: Homer Bailey ($5.1MM), Wilson Valdez ($1MM)
Third time: Bill Bray ($1.5MM)

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#LsKqOQpiZfy62Lqi.99

Wowza, cash is tight.

WildcatFan
10-25-2012, 11:11 AM
Wowza, cash is tight.

I see them extending Latos to save a few bucks next year. Maybe pay Latos $2.8 or so next year (would be a $2 million raise). Probably drop Ondrusek and Bray (although I'd like to keep Bray if we can), and you save a little there.

Still, you're right about a tight, tight budget.

HokieRed
10-25-2012, 11:20 AM
Stubbs and Leake getting nearly 6 million between them makes it even more attractive to move them than it already is. Hard to see why either Bray or Valdez would be back too.

dfs
10-25-2012, 12:10 PM
I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs "he's a horrible bum" or anything, but I let Wilson Valdez test the market before I go paying him a million dollars to do that thing he does.

Bill Bray is a roll of the dice, but he was an awfully valuable guy in 2011. You can never have too many arms and you aren't going to get somebody BETTER than Bray on the free agent market for 2.0 million.

Boy that's a lot of money for Drew Stubbs. I think they'll pay it, but...

The rest of them I sign without complaint or problem.

mdccclxix
10-25-2012, 12:15 PM
I think you have to step back and sell high on Bailey. Send him out with Stubbs and/or Heisey. Bring in some offensive talent. Maybe we're talking Span.

Chapman to the rotation with Cingrani/Corcino/Jeff Francis type to fill in next year if Chapman can't do it. Cueto, Arroyo, Latos, Leake, Chapman/Cingrani/Corcino/FA guy. Good enough. Especially if CF is upgraded and/or Ludwick can be afforded.

FWIW, the FA class for SP is pretty good. There will be 4-5 guys that revive their careers someplace. GABP not being the most likely however.

Scrap Irony
10-25-2012, 12:22 PM
The Reds are next in our 2013 Arbitration Eligibles series. Matt Swartz's salary projections are below.

First time: Mat Latos ($4.6MM), Mike Leake ($2.9MM), Drew Stubbs ($2.9MM), Chris Heisey ($1.3MM), Logan Ondrusek ($900K), Alfredo Simon ($800K)
Second time: Homer Bailey ($5.1MM), Wilson Valdez ($1MM)
Third time: Bill Bray ($1.5MM)

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#LsKqOQpiZfy62Lqi.99

Wowza, cash is tight.

If Drew Stubbs is indeed likely to receive nearly $3 million, I'd drop him like a hot potato. Deal he, Leake, Ondrusek, Bray, and Valdez (total expenditure: just over $11 million) for prospects or one decent but expensive ballplayer, then fill with cheap guys who are likely just as good.

I'd think a Stubbs for Young, Jr., deal would be easy to complete. Add Bray to the package to see if Colorado needs bullpen arms (they do) and are willing to gamble. (They may.)

Deal Leake and Ondrusek to Kansas City for Lorenzo Cain and Salvador Perez. (That's an overpay, for sure.)

Deal Valdez back to Philly or to Arizona perhaps. Wherever.

That'd make your lineup:
Cain/ Young, Jr. CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
FA LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3B
Hanigan/ Mesoraco/ Perez C
Cozart SS

with a rotation of:
Cueto
Latos
Arroyo
Bailey
Chapman

and a bullpen of:
Hoover
Marshall
Cingrani
LeCure
Simon
Arredondo
Massett

and a bench of:
Heisey OF/ RH PH
Paul OF/ LH PH
Gregorius MI
Mesoraco/ Perez C

In AAA, you've still got Corcino if Chapman struggles to stay healthy. You've also got a backup 2B/3B in Henry Rodriguez and a backup 1B in Soto, who could really blossom in his second go-'round in Louisville. Phillips is the seventh OF, after the six in Cincy plus Frazier, if one's needed. (LaMarre and others are also available if Phillips proves more 2012 pumpkin than 2011 horse.) The 'pen needs some help, but that can be taken care of if Jocketty decides to spend cash on either Madson or Broxton (or, even better, both).

Vottomatic
10-25-2012, 12:31 PM
The Reds are next in our 2013 Arbitration Eligibles series. Matt Swartz's salary projections are below.

First time: Mat Latos ($4.6MM), Mike Leake ($2.9MM), Drew Stubbs ($2.9MM), Chris Heisey ($1.3MM), Logan Ondrusek ($900K), Alfredo Simon ($800K)
Second time: Homer Bailey ($5.1MM), Wilson Valdez ($1MM)
Third time: Bill Bray ($1.5MM)

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#LsKqOQpiZfy62Lqi.99

Other than Latos, I could see all of those guys available as trade bait and/or a few them outright released. Now, with Bailey and Leake, it's one or the other in trade. They have to keep one of them. I would think Bailey would command alot of interest based on the way he finished the season and his postseason performance.

redsmetz
10-25-2012, 01:11 PM
I have to agree that it would be very surprising if the Reds offer Valdez arbitration. He's more likely to be someone they release and see if he's still around when they're filling out the roster. It also won't be surprising to see some of this group be traded prior to arbitration figures having to be exchanged. Of course, there's always the possibility of just getting deals done with some (if not, many) of them prior to that. When's the last time we had an actual arbitration hearing - five years ago?

Wonderful Monds
10-25-2012, 06:00 PM
Yeah, Bailey would get interest in a tract, because he's a good pitcher. But good teams need good pitchers, so I don't understand the enthusiasm behind trading him.

But otherwise deal or decline arbitration on like, all of those guys (except Latos, obviously.) They are all extremely replaceable.

You could probably get something for Leake and Heisey, probably even Ondrusek and Bray, maybe just maybe even Simon! Cut Valdez and Stubbs, get cheap replacements by dealing the rest of them.

PuffyPig
10-25-2012, 08:27 PM
...
Cut .... Stubbs.

He has trade value, so that makes no sense.

Wonderful Monds
10-25-2012, 08:29 PM
...

He has trade value, so that makes no sense.

That is extremely questionable to me, given his salary he stands to make.

cinreds21
10-25-2012, 09:05 PM
Deal Leake and Ondrusek to Kansas City for Lorenzo Cain and Salvador Perez. (That's an overpay, for sure.)



No chance that'd happen. Leake is a fourth or fifth starter and Ondrusek is a seventh inning guy with control problems. Cain is a potential starting center fielder and Perez a young starting catcher who got a long extension a year ago from Kansas City.

marcshoe
10-25-2012, 09:41 PM
Trading Homer would be a major mistake, Imho. He's not a player who happened to get hot; he's taken a big step forward. Selling high wouldn't work because he hasn't reached peak value yet. Right now you'd just be allowing him to have his best years elsewhere.

LoganBuck
10-25-2012, 09:54 PM
I let Stubbs, Heisey, and Valdez walk. I would not pay for any of them. $5 Million to put towards something useful like Homer Bailey, Mat Latos, and Mike Leake (who even though he was the 5th starter, was a useful 5th starter. He is a country mile better than the dreck that many teams jog out there. We have seen that act before, keep Leake. He is young, durable, able to handle the bat for a pitcher, certainly worse money will be spent on this team.

Simon is priced right for what he is. Ondrusek I probably bring back, but he is out of options, and his performance is disappointing at best.

Does Bray's health suggest that he will be back and useful next season? He will be a FA after the season. If his back and arm look like long term problems I let him walk. You need a guy you can depend on. Nick Masset is already a health question mark. Do the Reds need another?

cinreds21
10-25-2012, 10:01 PM
I let Stubbs, Heisey, and Valdez walk. I would not pay for any of them. $5 Million to put towards something useful like Homer Bailey, Mat Latos, and Mike Leake (who even though he was the 5th starter, was a useful 5th starter. He is a country mile better than the dreck that many teams jog out there. We have seen that act before, keep Leake. He is young, durable, able to handle the bat for a pitcher, certainly worse money will be spent on this team.

Simon is priced right for what he is. Ondrusek I probably bring back, but he is out of options, and his performance is disappointing at best.

Does Bray's health suggest that he will be back and useful next season? He will be a FA after the season. If his back and arm look like long term problems I let him walk. You need a guy you can depend on. Nick Masset is already a health question mark. Do the Reds need another?

That is false.

LoganBuck
10-25-2012, 10:14 PM
That is false.

Didn't Ondrusek use options this year, last year, and in 2010?

Edit, I guess he didn't use one in 2011. I stand corrected. Thanks. Bring him back then!

cinreds21
10-25-2012, 10:17 PM
Didn't Ondrusek use options this year, last year, and in 2010?

He has only used one option, in 2010. If you recall he broke with the club but was sent down for over a month, that used up an option. He was not sent down in 2011. And this year he was only sent down for 11 days, thus not using up an option year, so he has two options left come March.

PuffyPig
10-26-2012, 06:37 AM
I let Stubbs, Heisey, and Valdez walk.

Why would you let players like Stubbs and Heisey walk when we have no viable replacements in the system and, more importantly, each has trade value.

According to Fangraphs Stubbs had a WAR of 1.3 this year, the lowest of his career. Still, it equated to a salary value of $6M.

Dumping Heisey for nothnig is equally perplexing. He's consistently posted a WAR of between 1.2-1.6 and will get paid about $1.4M (or whatever). That's great value for a very productive 4-5 OF who can actually play CF.

Boss-Hog
10-26-2012, 06:45 AM
According to Fangraphs Stubbs had a WAR of 1.3 this year, the lowest of his career. Still, it equated to a salary value of $6M.

Here's an honest question: do you feel Drew Stubbs would get $6 million on the open market?

edabbs44
10-26-2012, 07:12 AM
Why would you let players like Stubbs and Heisey walk when we have no viable replacements in the system and, more importantly, each has trade value.

According to Fangraphs Stubbs had a WAR of 1.3 this year, the lowest of his career. Still, it equated to a salary value of $6M.

Dumping Heisey for nothnig is equally perplexing. He's consistently posted a WAR of between 1.2-1.6 and will get paid about $1.4M (or whatever). That's great value for a very productive 4-5 OF who can actually play CF.

How much of Stubbs' WAR is defense related, which may or may not be a reliable measure?

LoganBuck
10-26-2012, 07:51 AM
Drew Stubbs and Chris Heisey are -0.2 and -0.3 for WAR at Baseball-Reference. I know there are a lot of Fangraphs fans, but I prefer BR. I am not paying for negative WAR. No team should. Certainly not what MLBTR has predicted here. The only way around that is to sign them long term. Who really wants that?

LoganBuck
10-26-2012, 07:57 AM
It should be noted, that I am only fine with bringing Chris Heisey back if he is in a defined role as a "Bench" player, not a platoon, not a starting player in any way, shape, or form. He is a hacktastic player, who has many of the same warts as Drew Stubbs(with noticeably lesser defense), yet somehow or other has escaped the publics' wrath.

dfs
10-26-2012, 09:28 AM
Here's an honest question: do you feel Drew Stubbs would get $6 million on the open market?

Alter the question to "Do I think Drew Stubbs could get 6 million in the open market?" and the answer is....maybe.

Alter the question to "Do I think Drew Stubbs could get 3 million in the open market?" and the answer is absolutely without a doubt.

_Sir_Charles_
10-26-2012, 10:25 AM
Of the players listed, the only one I let walk is Valdez.

Homer should be extended. Period. Even thinking of trading him is beyond insane IMO.

Leake I go year to year with for now. I still think he's going to become a VERY valuable pitcher. But if I'm proved wrong, he'll still be a pretty good trade chip. But trading him is the last option.

Bray, Simon and Ondrusek I bring back. If we end up stashing them in Louisville, so be it. But they're viable 'penners. But I'd certainly have zero problems including any/all of them in a trade. Bullpen arms we've got.

Latos I look to lock up just like Homer. Arms like that don't come around too often.

That leaves Stubbs and Heisey. Looking at the FA market, I don't see us finding a solution to CF/leadoff there. Now if the FO works out a trade for a legitimate improvement, fine (think Choo). Otherwise I'm bringing both back. I like Heisey as a 4th outfielder/bench bat. And Stubbs...I'm sorry, but the way I'm looking at it is he's got nowhere to go but up. He's a freaking walking tool shed and I'd hate to see him put it all together for someone else. So basically I'm open to trading either/both but if it's not a real improvement...I bring them back.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 11:38 AM
Of the players listed, the only one I let walk is Valdez.

Homer should be extended. Period. Even thinking of trading him is beyond insane IMO.

Leake I go year to year with for now. I still think he's going to become a VERY valuable pitcher. But if I'm proved wrong, he'll still be a pretty good trade chip. But trading him is the last option.

Bray, Simon and Ondrusek I bring back. If we end up stashing them in Louisville, so be it. But they're viable 'penners. But I'd certainly have zero problems including any/all of them in a trade. Bullpen arms we've got.

Latos I look to lock up just like Homer. Arms like that don't come around too often.

That leaves Stubbs and Heisey. Looking at the FA market, I don't see us finding a solution to CF/leadoff there. Now if the FO works out a trade for a legitimate improvement, fine (think Choo). Otherwise I'm bringing both back. I like Heisey as a 4th outfielder/bench bat. And Stubbs...I'm sorry, but the way I'm looking at it is he's got nowhere to go but up. He's a freaking walking tool shed and I'd hate to see him put it all together for someone else. So basically I'm open to trading either/both but if it's not a real improvement...I bring them back.

You've got 69 million committed to 10 guys already. Arroyo's deferred 5 million, so maybe it's 64 million.

Signed - 64M
Joey Votto $17M
Brandon Phillips $10M
Jay Bruce $7.5M
Johnny Cueto $7.4M
Aroldis Chapman $2M
Bronson Arroyo $11.5M (5 mil deferred)
Sean Marshall $4.5M
Nick Masset $3.1M
Ryan Hanigan $2.05M
Jose Arredondo $1.2M

Free Agents - 3M in buyouts
Ryan Ludwick $500k[FA-*] - 7 million?
Ryan Madson $2.5M [FA-*] - 3 million?

Arb 3 - 1.5M
Bill Bray Arb-3 - 1.5 million

Arb 2 - 6.1M
Homer Bailey Arb-2 - 5.1 million
Wilson Valdez Arb-2 - 1 million

Arb 1 - 12.5M
Mat Latos Arb-1 4.6 million
Drew Stubbs Arb-1 - 2.9 million
Mike Leake Arb-1 -2.9 million
Chris Heisey Arb-1 - 1.3 million
Alfredo Simon Arb-1 - .8 million

Pre Arb - 2.5M
Logan Ondrusek Pre-Arb-3 -.5 million
Sam LeCure Pre-Arb-3 -.5 million
Todd Frazier Pre-Arb-2 - .5 million
Zack Cozart Pre-Arb-2 -.5 million
Devin Mesoraco Pre-Arb-2 -.5 million


95M to bring everyone but Madson and Valdez back - 23 players
Maybe add Didi and a FA platoon guy for 1 million to bring the total to 96.5?

Or looking at it by position:

C: Ryan Hanigan $2.05M
1b: Joey Votto $17M
2b: Brandon Phillips $10M
SS: Zach Cozart $.5M
3b: Todd Frazier $.5M
LF: Ryan Ludwick $500k[FA-*]
CF: Drew Stubbs Arb-1 - 2.9 million
RF: Jay Bruce $7.5M

Johnny Cueto $7.4M
Bronson Arroyo $11.5M (5 mil deferred)
Mat Latos Arb-1 4.6 million
Homer Bailey Arb-2 - 5.1 million
Mike Leake Arb-1 -2.9 million

CL: Aroldis Chapman $2M
LHRP: Sean Marshall $4.5M
RHRP: Nick Masset $3.1M
RHRP: Jose Arredondo $1.2M
LHRP: Bill Bray Arb-3 - 1.5 million
Alfredo Simon Arb-1 - .8 million
Logan Ondrusek Pre-Arb-3 -.5 million
Sam LeCure Pre-Arb-3 -.5 million
RHRP:Ryan Madson $2.5M [FA-*] - 3 million?

Bench:
Devin Mesoraco Pre-Arb-2 -.5 million
Chris Heisey Arb-1 - 1.3 million
Wilson Valdez Arb-2 - 1 million

In all it's a pretty tall order. Perhaps they can afford 96 million. I don't know.

WildcatFan
10-26-2012, 12:17 PM
Bear with me; I'm sorting this out in my head as I type.

So of that list, here's who I bring back from the non-signed group:

Bailey (and extend him, giving you some relief from that $5.1 m projection)
Latos (same as above)
Stubbs
Leake
Heisey
Simon
LeCure
Frazier
Cozart
Mesoraco

Based on the above projections, and ballparking $3.4m for Latos and Bailey (that was Cueto's first contract year salary, seems fair), is $16.2m, bringing you up to $88.2m after buyouts.

That leaves them short 1 or 2 relievers, depending on what you think happens with Aroldis and what the deal with Masset is. You could probably give Donnie Joseph a shot to fill the last bullpen spot and figure out your closer in ST.

Still need a starter in left and two infielders. Didi could easily take one of those infield positions, as could HankRod. But I know Dusty likes experience on the bench, and it's hard to blame him. So you're probably looking for one veteran backup infielder. Would cost $2m at the most, putting you at about $91m.

So what does that mean for left field? Probably that barring a surprising payroll increase, he's got to be cheap, and he's most likely got to come via trade.

AmarilloRed
10-26-2012, 12:54 PM
Bailey and Latos- might go to arbitration. The Reds may or may not be able to sign them to private deals. I think all the rest agree to private deals or enter FA. The Reds just don't seem to take a lot of cases to arbitration.

LoganBuck
10-26-2012, 01:09 PM
Bailey and Latos will win in arbitration. As much as we as fans think the team will get the best deal, both of these guys are a pitch away from never pitching in the big leagues again. They will want whatever they can get. The comp to Cueto is probably not there for either of them. Latos is a better pitcher through his age 24 season. Bailey's a different story all together. He isn't the pitcher Cueto had been, he doesn't have the track record of durability, and he is entering his age 27 season. However his numbers from this season put him squarely in the "middle of the rotation" pay scale. Add to that whatever argument can be made for the momentum going forward about his second half of the season, and I don't see how the Reds avoid paying.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 01:16 PM
I think Bailey is a worthy sell high candidate because his peripherals were the same last year and the results were widely different. I think Bailey is a 3.90-4.40 ERA player, not worth paying for at more than 5-7 per year, especially with young pitchers coming on soon enough. He also has an injury history. His no-hitter came against a crushed and defeated Pirates team, a team he happens to dominate anyway (which is good reason to keep him too). There are times when a sell high moment feels right, and most likely you're not really selling high, you just think you are. This is a sell high moment that kind of hurts, but that means you're really dealing, as most trades of meaning kind of hurt for both teams. If you find a top 40-ish prospect that is ready now for Bailey, go for it. I insist it must be for a ready player for 2013. I think a Span + a B- prospect for Bailey and Heisey would be a good trade.

LoganBuck
10-26-2012, 01:26 PM
I think Bailey is a worthy sell high candidate because his peripherals were the same last year and the results were widely different. I think Bailey is a 3.90-4.40 ERA player, not worth paying for at more than 5-7 per year, especially with young pitchers coming on soon enough. He also has an injury history. His no-hitter came against a crushed and defeated Pirates team, a team he happens to dominate anyway (which is good reason to keep him too). There are times when a sell high moment feels right, and most likely you're not really selling high, you just think you are. This is a sell high moment that kind of hurts, but that means you're really dealing, as most trades of meaning kind of hurt for both teams. If you find a top 40-ish prospect that is ready now for Bailey, go for it. I insist it must be for a ready player for 2013. I think a Span + a B- prospect for Bailey and Heisey would be a good trade.

I could certainly get in line with this kind of reasoning and trade.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 01:31 PM
Of course, this has only been looking at the 2013 budget. Who knows exactly what 2014 is shaping up to. Arroyo's off the books. The TV contract enters in. Maybe they resign Arroyo even. Who knows. I can certainly agree with the hold'm approach as well. In the end 2013 is about maintaining LF production, and improving CF and 3b. And the bench.

marcshoe
10-26-2012, 01:32 PM
It's not as if Bailey's peripherals predict a downturn, but that his improvement was hinted at by last year's peripherals (see 2012 prediction thread) and helped along by his being healthy for a full season. Add in his strong finish, and you have a player who is finally coming into his potential. Getting tod of him now for mediocrity and a prospect could be the worst timed decision winch Bob Welch left Fleetwood Mac.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 01:56 PM
I think Bailey's at his peak, which is why it is a sell high. If you don't think Span is a good player, that's one thing. There are tons of options, and typically we have no idea who they are.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 02:04 PM
Back to the budget for a second:

If you take Ludwick's 6.5 million (leaving the .5M buyout) and Stubbs 2.9M out, you've got 9.4 in reduction. So, just call it 9. That puts the Reds at 87 million without a starting CF or LF. Take Bailey's 5 million off and it's 82 million, which is around where they've been the last few years. Now you need a starter or closer...

I think with the coming tv contract, we'll see 95 million as a distinct possibility, but next year? We'll see. It's hard getting around any of this.

camisadelgolf
10-26-2012, 03:01 PM
The Reds have been saving money for this day. I'm not too worried about the Reds having a $90+M payroll next season.

marcshoe
10-26-2012, 03:10 PM
I think Bailey's at his peak, which is why it is a sell high. If you don't think Span is a good player, that's one thing. There are tons of options, and typically we have no idea who they are.

Why do you think Bailey has peaked?

Btw, I don't think Span is a bad player, just nothing special. I wouldn't cash in valuable chips for him.

Could be wrong.

mdccclxix
10-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Why do you think Bailey has peaked?

Btw, I don't think Span is a bad player, just nothing special. I wouldn't cash in valuable chips for him.

Could be wrong.

I think he's got a very nice mix of pitches, but generally his command is inconsistent and he lacks a put away pitch often as a result. His fastball is pretty straight and I think he depends on very fine control - similar to Harang. In fact, I'd expect him to be like Harang for the next few years, which would be outstanding, but not much better than this year.

When I stated "peak" I was thinking "plateau", although I'm not counting on a long stay, and not ruling out injury setbacks. I love Bailey, love his story, love his place in this franchises recent history, but if he's bringing back equal value to fill a hole offensively I'm okay with selling at his "highest" point thus far.

Again, this isn't a sell off or rebuild style trade where you get what you can get. It's made of choice, not necessity, unless we find out there is not enough money for LF, etc. I'd love Bailey as the #4 again next year.

PuffyPig
10-26-2012, 04:49 PM
Bailey and Latos will win in arbitration.

How can you say that when we have no idea what they will be asking for?

REDREAD
10-26-2012, 05:14 PM
I let Stubbs, Heisey, and Valdez walk.

Well, we need a 4th OF type that can play CF.. Those aren't that easy to come by. We are pretty much forced to keep one of Stubbs/Heisey, even if we can pull off a trade for an upgraded CF

We also need a backup inf that can play SS .. We can try to find an upgrade to Valdez, but usually a backup SS either hits or fields well.. not both. Valdez is adequate defensively.. Room for improvement, but not so sure I cut him loose just to save 1 million.. I'd sign him for 1 million, just to have one less thing to search for this offseason. If we find an upgrade, that's fine.

Others said to trade Homer or Leake.. It would take a very good player coming back to the Reds for me to consider that. I kind of doubt Chapman could make it through the entire season as a starter. No real help at AAA at starting pitching anyhow.. The rotation was a strength in 2012.. not in a hurry to dismantle that strength.

REDREAD
10-26-2012, 05:19 PM
Drew Stubbs and Chris Heisey are -0.2 and -0.3 for WAR at Baseball-Reference. I know there are a lot of Fangraphs fans, but I prefer BR. I am not paying for negative WAR. No team should. Certainly not what MLBTR has predicted here. The only way around that is to sign them long term. Who really wants that?

IMO, this kind of discredits baseball reference.
No one is saying that Stubbs or Heisey is a star, but they are not replacement level players. Replacement level means easily attainable off the waiver wire for minimum salary. Show me 2 guys that can play defense and offense at their level AND who were readily available at any point last season at less than 1 million.. ( Readily available means picking off waiver wire, no trades). I'll give you from the end of 2011 season through the end of the 2012 season.
I'm guessing that would be a hard task to complete. (Juan Pierre doesn't qualify, as he's not a CFer).

_Sir_Charles_
10-27-2012, 09:43 AM
The Reds have been saving money for this day. I'm not too worried about the Reds having a $90+M payroll next season.

This. We've been droning on and on about the budget laments for years here, then look what happened the past couple of years. Everyone was STUNNED by the signings. Chapman out of the blue. Extending Phillips, Bruce, Cueto and then the whopper of Votto that hardly anyone thought they could pull off. There's more money than many people think. It's just a question of whether they're willing to spend it is all.

Tony Cloninger
10-27-2012, 06:04 PM
They can let Bray go. Horst looks pretty good and can fill in there. Wait? Oh yes they traded Horst for Valdez. So instead of having a replacement possible for Bray, while just signing someone to back up Cozart who could have given you better hitting, heck Juan Castro could have done no worse.... they get this. Among most people this trade would not register...to me it does on how little they valued Horst and how much they over valued Valdez.

Patrick Bateman
10-27-2012, 06:22 PM
I find it amazing how the small moves like losing Horst are sarcastically lambasted for a team that won nearly 100 games. At some point one just has to realize that the bottom of the roster players are for the mpst part interchangable and very difficult to determine which ones are actually worthwhile pieces.

I will never ever care about losing Horst, nor will I get hung up on the 25th player on the roster, especially under the guise of a team that had an increibly successful season.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that Horst was actually a minor league free agent that EVERY team in baseball passed on before the Reds subsequently resigned him, and traded him when they realized that he was not going to make the team out of ST anyways.

Benihana
10-27-2012, 07:57 PM
Well, we need a 4th OF type that can play CF.. Those aren't that easy to come by. We are pretty much forced to keep one of Stubbs/Heisey, even if we can pull off a trade for an upgraded CF

Agreed, the Reds should keep one of Stubbs/Heisey as a 4th OF.


We also need a backup inf that can play SS .. We can try to find an upgrade to Valdez, but usually a backup SS either hits or fields well.. not both. Valdez is adequate defensively.. Room for improvement, but not so sure I cut him loose just to save 1 million.. I'd sign him for 1 million, just to have one less thing to search for this offseason. If we find an upgrade, that's fine.

If he's not traded for help elsewhere, I think DiDi Gregorius could fill Valdez's shoes as a backup MI. No reason to pay a lot for one.


Others said to trade Homer or Leake.. It would take a very good player coming back to the Reds for me to consider that. I kind of doubt Chapman could make it through the entire season as a starter. No real help at AAA at starting pitching anyhow.. The rotation was a strength in 2012.. not in a hurry to dismantle that strength.

I also wouldn't trade Homer or Leake for a song, although I would especially consider moving Leake for significant OF help (someone like Justin Upton). However I would dispute the notion that there is no real help at AAA in starting pitching. I think Tony Cingrani could contribute at least 5-10 starts to the big club in 2013 if needed, and he would be needed if Chapman is going to start. The two of them together could conceivably fill one rotation spot.

Tom Servo
10-27-2012, 09:48 PM
I find it amazing how the small moves like losing Horst are sarcastically lambasted for a team that won nearly 100 games. At some point one just has to realize that the bottom of the roster players are for the mpst part interchangable and very difficult to determine which ones are actually worthwhile pieces.

I will never ever care about losing Horst, nor will I get hung up on the 25th player on the roster, especially under the guise of a team that had an increibly successful season.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that Horst was actually a minor league free agent that EVERY team in baseball passed on before the Reds subsequently resigned him, and traded him when they realized that he was not going to make the team out of ST anyways.
This. I could not care less about Horst. It's like complaining you didn't also get a small sandwich when you won a million dollars.

REDREAD
10-28-2012, 01:03 AM
If he's not traded for help elsewhere, I think DiDi Gregorius could fill Valdez's shoes as a backup MI. No reason to pay a lot for one.



I also wouldn't trade Homer or Leake for a song, although I would especially consider moving Leake for significant OF help (someone like Justin Upton). .

I guess if the Reds think Didi is a real prospect, I'd rather him develop in AAA as opposed to being a Valdez guy.. but if they think he's not a future starter, you're right, having him backup MI is a viable option.

Agreeed that trading Homer/Leake for an impact OF would be fine with me.

Tony Cloninger
10-28-2012, 08:22 PM
This. I could not care less about Horst. It's like complaining you didn't also get a small sandwich when you won a million dollars.

Fine. It's not a big deal. Now where's my ham sandwich?