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View Full Version : mlb.com article saying Hamilton may be up sooner than later, and Chapman to rotation?



Vottomatic
11-03-2012, 09:07 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=...Id=rss_cin


Welcome to Walt Jocketty's winter fun.

He has an offseason to-do list that includes re-signing Ryan Ludwick and finding a closer that would allow him to move Aroldis Chapman to the rotation.


.....



Now comes the really interesting decision.

In the traditional view of player development, Hamilton would spend the entire 2013 season -- or most of the season -- at Triple-A. Even that would be pushing him, because he has played just 50 games above Class A.

There are two other factors playing into Jocketty's decision. One is the success that Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Manny Machado had in 2012.

They were all rushed to the Major Leagues. They all succeeded, too. And they're all younger than Billy Hamilton.

Harper and Trout played 21 and 20 games, respectively, at Triple-A. Machado played 109 games at Double-A and made the jump to the Major Leagues without a stop in Triple-A.

What they all have in common is that they were fast-tracked to the Major Leagues, and they all held their own.

All of them struggled at times. But Harper and Machado helped their teams to the playoffs, and Trout will finish first or second in the American League Most Valuable Player Award balloting.

"Those guys are extremely good athletes and players," Jocketty said. "Certain guys can do it, and Billy might be one. He's a talented player with great instincts."

......


The Reds had very few weaknesses in 2012, but leadoff hitter was one of them.

Manager Dusty Baker used seven different players in the top spot, and Cincinnati's leadoff men were last in the Majors in batting average (.208) and on-base percentage (.254).

Just the thought of adding someone with Hamilton's dazzling skill set is enough to throw your average Reds fan into a tizzy. He has already made Cincinnati's 2013 Spring Training the most interesting in all of baseball.

Jocketty will spend this winter shopping for a leadoff hitter. But finding someone to play for only a year or two until Hamilton is ready will be a challenge.

Regardless, the Reds are going to bring Hamilton to Spring Training and get a good, long look at him. If he opens the season as Cincinnati's leadoff hitter, it should not shock anyone.

RedEye
11-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Sign me up for both of these options, please.

REDREAD
11-03-2012, 10:58 PM
Isn't it wonderful to have faith that the front office will at least attempt to address weaknesses.. that there's competence in there, and an owner commited to winning?

Great time to be a Reds fan.

I would bet money that Hamilton comes up at some point in the 2013 season..

SirFelixCat
11-03-2012, 11:05 PM
Just a layman's opinion here:

While Slidin' Billy is uber-exciting and could help in the leadoff spot, I think this would be a bad move.


He just switched positions. While his superior athleticism would cover/mask some of his mistakes from still having to learn the position, I would much rather him LEARN the position at a natural pace and not in the pressure cooker that will be the expectations of the Reds next season.
While he has near Olympic world-class speed, he was able to take a ton of risks while in Single-A and Double-A on the base paths and depend on that speed to allow him to win most gambles. He still needs to hone his craft of being a base stealer and not just a 'super fast guy who can run and happens to steal a lot of bases'. I think major league catchers would eat him alive AT THIS POINT. Give him the season to really learn the little things that make a great basestealer just that.
All those guys mentioned have legit power and pitchers couldn't just go right after them, for fear of the HR. Billy doesn't have that luxury. He needs to better learn the strike zone. Obivously, he's learning to take a BB, but his K rate is still high and doesn't have the power to offset that (and most likely never will). Allow him the time in the minors to develop that skill as well and not force it. The benefits, imo, will bear fruit, if given time to be learned w/o the pressure.


Again, I don't have the SABR background to back all of this up. Just a guy who has read and followed Billy this season, thanks to the great job of the minor league forum guys!:beerme:

cinreds21
11-03-2012, 11:07 PM
Start Billy back in Double-A playing center. Call him up as a September call-up or at the end of August.

I would almost bet he starts back in Pensacola. Ryan LaMarre, Josh Fellhauer, Denis Phipps, and Felix Perez are all likely to be in Louisville next year, so there really isn't a spot. I could see LaMarre going back to Double-A since he kinda struggled.

Brutus
11-04-2012, 12:39 AM
Just a layman's opinion here:

While Slidin' Billy is uber-exciting and could help in the leadoff spot, I think this would be a bad move.


He just switched positions. While his superior athleticism would cover/mask some of his mistakes from still having to learn the position, I would much rather him LEARN the position at a natural pace and not in the pressure cooker that will be the expectations of the Reds next season.
While he has near Olympic world-class speed, he was able to take a ton of risks while in Single-A and Double-A on the base paths and depend on that speed to allow him to win most gambles. He still needs to hone his craft of being a base stealer and not just a 'super fast guy who can run and happens to steal a lot of bases'. I think major league catchers would eat him alive AT THIS POINT. Give him the season to really learn the little things that make a great basestealer just that.
All those guys mentioned have legit power and pitchers couldn't just go right after them, for fear of the HR. Billy doesn't have that luxury. He needs to better learn the strike zone. Obivously, he's learning to take a BB, but his K rate is still high and doesn't have the power to offset that (and most likely never will). Allow him the time in the minors to develop that skill as well and not force it. The benefits, imo, will bear fruit, if given time to be learned w/o the pressure.


Again, I don't have the SABR background to back all of this up. Just a guy who has read and followed Billy this season, thanks to the great job of the minor league forum guys!:beerme:

There's not really much to learn about CF. It's mostly just instincts. Either you are able to see the ball off the bat or you aren't. And if he's unable to, I think that's something they'd learn very early on. With infielders, there is a lot of subtle footwork and mechanical issues to master. But I just think that's an overrated factor for a guy going to the outfield. It's a very simple game out there. See the ball. Catch the ball. Throw the ball to the cut-off man.

Superdude
11-04-2012, 12:59 AM
There's not really much to learn about CF. It's mostly just instincts. Either you are able to see the ball off the bat or you aren't. And if he's unable to, I think that's something they'd learn very early on. With infielders, there is a lot of subtle footwork and mechanical issues to master. But I just think that's an overrated factor for a guy going to the outfield. It's a very simple game out there. See the ball. Catch the ball. Throw the ball to the cut-off man.

Yea I can't imagine this taking as long as people are projecting. Even though he's just now playing real games, it sounds like he's been working out there for a while. Unless he's just downright horrible at every fundamental aspect of the position, I would imagine the fastest player in recent memory should be able to make a fairly quick transition.

Matt700wlw
11-04-2012, 03:12 AM
It's November, and we're talking baseball.

Color me excited!

Matt700wlw
11-04-2012, 03:17 AM
The link is either bad, or it's been pulled

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=...Id=rss_cin

membengal
11-04-2012, 07:24 AM
Hamilton's ability to go get the ball and catch it in CF is the least of my worries with him. Everything comes down to his ability to get on base. If the Reds think he can do that starting in April in the bigs, I hope they make it so.

dunner13
11-04-2012, 07:46 AM
I would rather just give the job to hamilton on Opening Day and keep stubbs or heisey around as his backup then give Pagan or BJ Upton big money. Hamilton is exactly what this team needs, he played very well in AA and has looked good enough in the AFL so lets give him the job and see what happens.

MikeS21
11-04-2012, 10:30 AM
Count me among those unwilling to rush Hamilton to the big leagues this year.

I'm not too worried about his defense. His instincts awill improve the longer he plays CF and his speed and athleticism can make up for bad jumps, misplays, and poor judgement.

I want to see him improve his bat control and strike zone judgement. Improve reading pitchers while on the basepaths. Do that at AA - not in the big leagues.

Superdude
11-04-2012, 11:21 AM
Count me among those unwilling to rush Hamilton to the big leagues this year.

I'm not too worried about his defense. His instincts awill improve the longer he plays CF and his speed and athleticism can make up for bad jumps, misplays, and poor judgement.

I want to see him improve his bat control and strike zone judgement. Improve reading pitchers while on the basepaths. Do that at AA - not in the big leagues.

I'd like to see him scale back his running game before we call him up too. It seems like the mantra's been, "Take as many bases as you can and learn from it" so far. Great experience, but now's the time to start picking his spots and be smart about it.

BCubb2003
11-04-2012, 11:27 AM
I wonder, should he be learning from AA pitchers and catchers, or should he learn from the best? If he can handle being shot down a few times, maybe he should be studying major-league quality moves and arms.

reds1869
11-04-2012, 01:36 PM
I wonder, should he be learning from AA pitchers and catchers, or should he learn from the best? If he can handle being shot down a few times, maybe he should be studying major-league quality moves and arms.

That is how I feel. Let him learn up here and expect some struggles. He will be more valuable offensively than Stubbs and what I have seen of his CF defense is impressive.

dougdirt
11-04-2012, 03:06 PM
Hamilton struck out 20.2% of the time he stepped to the plate in AA last season. With very little power. In 650 PA's, that would be 131 strikeouts. If he can keep the same rate as he had in AA. He had a walk rate in AA that rivaled Joey Votto. That isn't going to keep up in the Majors. I would rather play the safe side with Hamilton, send him to AAA and let him work on making contact at a better rate.

I(heart)Freel
11-04-2012, 07:50 PM
Sign ichiro to play left and personally mentor BHam on being a contact hitter and base stealer. That would also make for one heckuva defensive outfield. Where fly balls go to die. Also gives Votto some runners to drive in.

IslandRed
11-04-2012, 08:58 PM
I was pleased with the step forward Hamilton took this year at the plate, and I'm on board with the switch to center field. But he's not quite ready for the major leagues in my opinion. He was a project from the get-go and he didn't suddenly jump to the ultra-fast track just because he nicely survived the promotion to Double-A. If he ends up busting the door down during the season, fine, but the Reds shouldn't make their 2013 plans around it.

Unassisted
11-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Hamilton can't steal first base. The Reds already have a CF afflicted with that issue. I'd prefer that the next one master hitting AAA pitching to watching a new guy flame out at the plate in a Reds uniform.

mdccclxix
11-05-2012, 09:31 AM
If he starts hot, bring him up in late May, but really no sooner. I'm with Doug, I really don't want to rely on that walk rate holding up just yet. But I'd start him in AAA and not worry about Lamarre, who's eta would seem to be 2014 or late 2013 anyway.

traderumor
11-05-2012, 10:38 AM
Challenge thy hitters--Princeton

dfs
11-05-2012, 10:39 AM
....we've been reds fans for so long that it's been drilled into us that reds prospects need to be held in the minors for as long as possible.

I wonder. The goal of the organization is to win. Win now....win later....just win....sometime.

Looking at the reds salary structure and ability to pay....even if it costs Billy Hamilton the absolute top edge of his potential development range....the best thing for the reds may be to turn Billy Hamilton into something they can use right now.

Even if that means trading him?

yeah....yeah. I think so. They need a centerfielder who can get on base. It's one of the big needs of the organization...here you have this guy.....so close, but not there yet. I think you have to give him a chance.

dfs
11-05-2012, 10:41 AM
Sign ichiro to play left and personally mentor BHam on being a contact hitter and base stealer. That would also make for one heckuva defensive outfield. Where fly balls go to die. Also gives Votto some runners to drive in.

Towards the end of his career I kept hoping the reds would do this with Gregg Maddox. Yeah. I like this idea.

REDREAD
11-05-2012, 10:47 AM
....we've been reds fans for so long that it's been drilled into us that reds prospects need to be held in the minors for as long as possible.



YEa, I was thinking along these lines too.
Our CF was so OBP challenged last year that Billy has a low bar to improve upon.
I think the team is good enough where they could handle Billy taking 1/2 season to adjust to the big leagues, if that's what it takes.

I guess if it was up to me (barring spring training data), I'd put Billy in AAA for the first month of the season.. If he continues to hit and draw walks like he did in AAA, bring him up.. If he struggles, be patient.
On the other hand, if he looks great in spring training (the scouts' eye), why not just make him the Opening day CF and live with the growing pains?
Letting Billy grow at the big league level in 2013 may pay great dividends in 2014 as well..

camisadelgolf
11-05-2012, 11:45 AM
....we've been reds fans for so long that it's been drilled into us that reds prospects need to be held in the minors for as long as possible.
You must not have been around for the JimBo years.

jhu1321
11-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Hamilton struck out 20.2% of the time he stepped to the plate in AA last season. With very little power. In 650 PA's, that would be 131 strikeouts. If he can keep the same rate as he had in AA. He had a walk rate in AA that rivaled Joey Votto. That isn't going to keep up in the Majors. I would rather play the safe side with Hamilton, send him to AAA and let him work on making contact at a better rate.

I actually got excited when I saw he would only strike out 131 times. That' sad.

15fan
11-05-2012, 07:48 PM
If you want Billy Hamilton's bat (speed) in the Cincinnati lineup in 2013, I say put him in LF and let Stubbs keep playing CF.

Bat Hamilton 1, Stubbs 2, and Votto 3.

If Hamilton can get on base at a respectable clip, Stubbs sees a healthy diet of fastballs with Hamilton on the bases and Votto in the on deck circle.

Vottomatic
11-05-2012, 08:51 PM
If you want Billy Hamilton's bat (speed) in the Cincinnati lineup in 2013, I say put him in LF and let Stubbs keep playing CF.

Bat Hamilton 1, Stubbs 2, and Votto 3.

If Hamilton can get on base at a respectable clip, Stubbs sees a healthy diet of fastballs with Hamilton on the bases and Votto in the on deck circle.

If Hamilton can steal 1B........well, if he can get on first base. And that means the next hitter sees a heavy dose of fastballs.........then bat Bruce or Votto or Phillips second in the order, not Stubbs. :thumbup:

Vottomatic
11-05-2012, 09:00 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121105&content_id=40174418&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


Much of the uncertainty will exist until the Reds figure out what to do with Aroldis Chapman.

"We haven't made a decision on Chapman as a starter or as a reliever," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. "We're talking about it."

Part of what determines if Chapman starts involves how well the Reds navigate their way around the free-agent market for closers.

"It depends on if we re-sign [Jonathan] Broxton and [Ryan] Madson," Jocketty said. "Or if we get another closer."


.....


Madson spent all of 2012 rehabilitating from Tommy John surgery but would like to be a closer again. He saved 32 of 34 opportunities for the Phillies in 2011.

Jocketty has been in touch with the representatives for the free agents, Broxton and Madson. There is mutual interest from both sides in having them return. Neither is expected to land giant contracts.

Other closers on the open market that could be reasonably priced include Jose Valverde, Joakim Soria, Brett Myers and Matt Capps. There are also potential in-house options the Reds could look at, like Sam LeCure, Logan Ondrusek or J.J. Hoover.

Wonderful Monds
11-05-2012, 10:22 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121105&content_id=40174418&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb



.....

Soria? Hey I wouldn't mind that at all.

dfs
11-06-2012, 12:23 AM
You must not have been around for the JimBo years.

No. That's precisely one of the reasons we would think that prospects need to be held on the farm forever. We saw so many of Jimbo's overhyped and overpromoted prospects fail.

I think Hamilton will have a really tough adjustment period, but when he catches on I think he'll be a very useful player.

camisadelgolf
11-06-2012, 03:46 AM
No. That's precisely one of the reasons we would think that prospects need to be held on the farm forever. We saw so many of Jimbo's overhyped and overpromoted prospects fail.

I think Hamilton will have a really tough adjustment period, but when he catches on I think he'll be a very useful player.
One thing to keep in mind is the finances. Bringing a player up earlier accelerates the arbitration clock, making him more expensive and resulting in less money spent on other players. It also means the player is eligible for free agency sooner. I'd rather the Reds err on the side of caution.

gilpdawg
11-06-2012, 03:57 AM
Towards the end of his career I kept hoping the reds would do this with Gregg Maddox. Yeah. I like this idea.
Play him in left field?

Just kidding.

klw
11-06-2012, 09:09 AM
From Jerry Crasnick chat:
Alex (OH)


What do you see the Reds doing to address their need at lead-off? It is hard to see them signing anyone to a long term deal with Billy Hamilton about a year or so away.
Jerry Crasnick (1:22 PM)

Alex, I asked someone about this yesterday, and I think they're inclined to just go with the status quo (Drew Stubbs in center) until Billy Hamilton is ready. I've heard he looks pretty good in CF in the Arizona Fall League. The Reds people seem cautiously optimistic that he might be ready midway through the 2013 season -- if not sooner.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/45972/mlb-with-jerry-crasnick

dfs
11-06-2012, 09:19 AM
One thing to keep in mind is the finances. Bringing a player up earlier accelerates the arbitration clock, making him more expensive and resulting in less money spent on other players. It also means the player is eligible for free agency sooner. I'd rather the Reds err on the side of caution.

Now, That is old style reds thinking!

Benihana
11-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Jocketty says that moving Chapman to the rotation is dependent upon their ability to re-sign Madson and/or Broxton?

C'mon. I think that's like saying who I vote for President is dependent upon whether the stock market goes up or down today. I think the Reds need to make a fundamental decision on where Chapman will help the team the most over the next five years, then act accordingly with regards to other signings and acquisitions.

In addition, wasn't Marshall re-signed to the big extension with the thought that he would eventually be the closer?

OldXOhio
11-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Alex, I asked someone about this yesterday, and I think they're inclined to just go with the status quo (Drew Stubbs in center) until Billy Hamilton is ready.

I can't think of any reason why this would make sense...even if for just half a season.

Superdude
11-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Jocketty says that moving Chapman to the rotation is dependent upon their ability to re-sign Madson and/or Broxton?

C'mon. I think that's like saying who I vote for President is dependent upon whether the stock market goes up or down today. I think the Reds need to make a fundamental decision on where Chapman will help the team the most over the next five years, then act accordingly with regards to other signings and acquisitions.

My only guess is that they're making actual decisions behind closed doors and feeding this sort of slop to the fans. There's a very real possibility Chapman is just not good at starting and management knows it, but based on these articles, a reliever can't stub his toe without Chapman being moved back to the pen.

Brutus
11-06-2012, 12:09 PM
My only guess is that they're making actual decisions behind closed doors and feeding this sort of slop to the fans. There's a very real possibility Chapman is just not good at starting and management knows it, but based on these articles, a reliever can't stub his toe without Chapman being moved back to the pen.

I don't think that's the case. Remember that Chapman was a starter in spring and he performed really well. In fact, the Reds said several times he was their best starter in spring. Up until Madson's injury, or at least until they knew the severity of his injury, Chapman was likely beating out Bailey or Leake for the last spot.

dougdirt
11-06-2012, 12:19 PM
I can't think of any reason why this would make sense...even if for just half a season.

Because the Reds, as it stands right now, are still significantly better than the other teams in the division. Giving Hamilton the time that he likely needs in AAA is not likely to be the difference in the Reds season.

757690
11-06-2012, 02:10 PM
Jocketty says that moving Chapman to the rotation is dependent upon their ability to re-sign Madson and/or Broxton?

C'mon. I think that's like saying who I vote for President is dependent upon whether the stock market goes up or down today. I think the Reds need to make a fundamental decision on where Chapman will help the team the most over the next five years, then act accordingly with regards to other signings and acquisitions.

In addition, wasn't Marshall re-signed to the big extension with the thought that he would eventually be the closer?

That's exactly what I would say at this point. It give the team negotiating power with Madsen, Broxton and any other reliever they are looking at. If they commit to moving Chapman to the rotation right now, then relievers wanting to sign with the club can say that the Reds have a hole to fill.

Vottomatic
11-06-2012, 03:37 PM
I think the Reds don't want to tip their hand, as possible negotiations go on with free agents and possible trade discussions take place. To engrave something in stone can back you into a corner.

The Reds have flexibility. And that's a good thing.

REDREAD
11-06-2012, 03:37 PM
I can't think of any reason why this would make sense...even if for just half a season.

Makes sense to me.
The Reds won the division with Stubbs in CF last year.
If they can replace Rolen and Ludwick's contributions, the lineup is good enough to make the playoffs with Stubbs.
If Hamilton comes up in June/July and siezes the job then Stubbs is not playing in the postseason.
It makes more sense than trading prospects to rent a CF for a season or less while Billy gets ready. (e.g overpaying for Span).

hebroncougar
11-06-2012, 04:42 PM
Makes sense to me.
The Reds won the division with Stubbs in CF last year.
If they can replace Rolen and Ludwick's contributions, the lineup is good enough to make the playoffs with Stubbs.
If Hamilton comes up in June/July and siezes the job then Stubbs is not playing in the postseason.
It makes more sense than trading prospects to rent a CF for a season or less while Billy gets ready. (e.g overpaying for Span).

I think alot of people are clamoring for change, just for changes sake. The Reds were by far the best team in the division. No need for any significant changes.

OldXOhio
11-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Because the Reds, as it stands right now, are still significantly better than the other teams in the division. Giving Hamilton the time that he likely needs in AAA is not likely to be the difference in the Reds season.

No, giving Stubbs any more playing time than a back up role. I get it with BH.

oneupper
11-07-2012, 09:38 AM
I think alot of people are clamoring for change, just for changes sake. The Reds were by far the best team in the division. No need for any significant changes.

2010: RS 790 RA 685
2011: RS 735 RA 720
2012: RS 669 RA 588

Here's the rib. The pitching in 2012 was PERFECT. It was so good, a team that scored 66 fewer runs, but allowed 132 less, won the division easily (albeit outplaying their pythag).

If you think they can repeat that pitching performance in 2013, then yes. You can afford to carry the Stubbs' Cairos, Valdezes, etc. (Or maybe not even, the offensive could easily be WORSE in 2013 with the current roster, we saw it in Sept).

Personally, I don't think the pitching lightning will strike twice. The team is almost certain to give up more runs in 2013, which even if its only 30-40 (which would still be very good), leaves you needing to score a lot more.
It would help if you made some changes conducive to scoring a bit more, say another 50 runs or so.

I think that's why a lot of people around here are wary of the status quo. I know I'm a worrying sort, but hey...some has to be, right? :D

REDREAD
11-07-2012, 10:33 AM
2010: RS 790 RA 685
2011: RS 735 RA 720
2012: RS 669 RA 588

Personally, I don't think the pitching lightning will strike twice. The team is almost certain to give up more runs in 2013, which even if its only 30-40 (which would still be very good), leaves you needing to score a lot more.
It would help if you made some changes conducive to scoring a bit more, say another 50 runs or so.

I think that's why a lot of people around here are wary of the status quo. I know I'm a worrying sort, but hey...some has to be, right? :D

This is certainly a fair comment. I think even the status quo has some upside though. We got almost nothing out of LF in the beginning of the season. We lost Votto for 6 weeks, and when he came back he had no power. Frasier is likely to regress a bit, and I think we will have a hard time duplicating Rolen and Ludwick's post ASB production (but they gave us little in the beginning of the season). Hamilton will likely be up at some point, he doesn't have to do much to be an upgrade in CF. On the pitching side, Leake and Homer may improve a bit. I'm don't really expect the other starters to significantly get worse (maybe they will regress a litte). We do need some SP depth as we can't assume no one will miss a start though. The bullpen may regress a bit next year, hard to say.

If all the Reds do this season is sign a decent RH reliever to fill in the Brox role and and get a cleanup hitter at LF or 3b to replace Ludwick, I will be satisfied. Those are the most glaring needs, imo.. An upgrade in CF would be nice, but not critical. (I don't want to spend a lot of resources addressing CF with BHam on the horizon).

Scrap Irony
11-07-2012, 01:19 PM
How many career years happened in 2012?

I count at least 8.

That's a bunch of assuming they're going to do just as well.

dougdirt
11-07-2012, 01:42 PM
How many career years happened in 2012?

I count at least 8.

That's a bunch of assuming they're going to do just as well.

To be fair, how many of those years were done by young players who generally continue to perform better up until about 27-30 where they peak?

Brutus
11-07-2012, 02:11 PM
Jamie Ramsey just said again, more or less, the plan is for the Reds to find a closer and move Chapman to the rotation.

REDREAD
11-07-2012, 02:22 PM
How many career years happened in 2012?

I count at least 8.

That's a bunch of assuming they're going to do just as well.

Possibly non repeatable years:
Frasier
Ludwick
Paul
Simon


Who's on your list? Just curious, not disagreeing.

cinreds21
11-07-2012, 02:34 PM
Who is Frasier?

Wonderful Monds
11-07-2012, 02:40 PM
Who is Frasier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BUH3Gd9qAA

M2
11-08-2012, 01:28 PM
While I've got nothing against giving Hamilton every chance to impress in ST, there's got to be another option on the table and it can't be Stubbs (at least not vs. RHPs).

kaldaniels
11-12-2012, 12:30 AM
Just reading the tea leaves but based on the sum total of media reports lately I think the Reds are really committing to moving Chapman to the rotation this time.

dougdirt
11-12-2012, 12:50 AM
Just reading the tea leaves but based on the sum total of media reports lately I think the Reds are really committing to moving Chapman to the rotation this time.

As I have been saying since 2010.... I will believe it when I see it. Until then, I have no faith in it. I don't recall seeing Dusty ever say anything about Chapman other than talk about him as a reliever.

kaldaniels
11-12-2012, 01:01 AM
As I have been saying since 2010.... I will believe it when I see it. Until then, I have no faith in it. I don't recall seeing Dusty ever say anything about Chapman other than talk about him as a reliever.

Totally understandable POV.

Brutus
11-12-2012, 01:37 AM
As I have been saying since 2010.... I will believe it when I see it. Until then, I have no faith in it. I don't recall seeing Dusty ever say anything about Chapman other than talk about him as a reliever.

Considering Chapman was a starter this spring until Madson's injury, it's not much of a leap of faith.

I don't know why it's so hard to fathom they prefer putting him in the rotation. They had three key injuries to relievers this year and had five capable starters. They moved him out of nothing more than necessity.

Redhook
11-12-2012, 06:52 AM
As I have been saying since 2010.... I will believe it when I see it. Until then, I have no faith in it. I don't recall seeing Dusty ever say anything about Chapman other than talk about him as a reliever.

I'm with you on this one, I'll believe it when I see it. I strongly believe Dusty is pushing for Chapman to remain in the bullpen. To me, it's a no-brainer to at least try Chapman as a starter because the reward far outweighs the risk. He can always go back to the bullpen if it doesn't work out.

lollipopcurve
11-12-2012, 08:11 AM
Jocketty has ben quoted as saying that Chapman will be prepared as a starter because Bryan Price feels strongly he can start. I'd count on it happening, barring the unexpected injury or two. Dusty's not driving the bus on this one -- it's Jocketty's time now.

dougdirt
11-12-2012, 01:17 PM
Considering Chapman was a starter this spring until Madson's injury, it's not much of a leap of faith.

I don't know why it's so hard to fathom they prefer putting him in the rotation. They had three key injuries to relievers this year and had five capable starters. They moved him out of nothing more than necessity.

And at the absolute first chance they had, they bailed on that plan. The Reds didn't use Chapman as a closer last year to start the year and still put him in the bullpen at the first chance they had to make it happen. What happens this year if they sign a closer and then someone else gets an injury? Do they put Chapman in the bullpen again? I just don't believe it until it happens. They have said time and time again that they view him as a starter, yet every chance they get, they put him in the bullpen.

Brutus
11-12-2012, 01:36 PM
And at the absolute first chance they had, they bailed on that plan. The Reds didn't use Chapman as a closer last year to start the year and still put him in the bullpen at the first chance they had to make it happen. What happens this year if they sign a closer and then someone else gets an injury? Do they put Chapman in the bullpen again? I just don't believe it until it happens. They have said time and time again that they view him as a starter, yet every chance they get, they put him in the bullpen.

It wasn't the "absolute first chance they had."

Notice they didn't do it when Bill Bray went down. They didn't do it when Nick Masset went down. It was only after Ryan Madson got hurt, in conjunction with Bray and Masset also being out, that they decided they had no choice.

That was three projected bullpen arms all getting hurt. You're acting like a little arm soreness of one bullpen guy precipitated the whole thing.

puca
11-12-2012, 02:12 PM
It wasn't the "absolute first chance they had."

Notice they didn't do it when Bill Bray went down. They didn't do it when Nick Masset went down. It was only after Ryan Madson got hurt, in conjunction with Bray and Masset also being out, that they decided they had no choice.

That was three projected bullpen arms all getting hurt. You're acting like a little arm soreness of one bullpen guy precipitated the whole thing.

If I remember correctly Dusty was saying he wanted 2 lefties in the pen as soon as Bray went down (hint hint), so I think it was a strong possibility that Chapman would have been in the bullpen regardless of Madson's and Masset's heath.

Brutus
11-12-2012, 03:09 PM
If I remember correctly Dusty was saying he wanted 2 lefties in the pen as soon as Bray went down (hint hint), so I think it was a strong possibility that Chapman would have been in the bullpen regardless of Madson's and Masset's heath.

Dusty says a lot of things, but this wasn't his call. It was Jocketty's. Ultimately he, not Dusty, is in charge personnel.

_Sir_Charles_
11-13-2012, 10:46 AM
And at the absolute first chance they had, they bailed on that plan. The Reds didn't use Chapman as a closer last year to start the year and still put him in the bullpen at the first chance they had to make it happen. What happens this year if they sign a closer and then someone else gets an injury? Do they put Chapman in the bullpen again? I just don't believe it until it happens. They have said time and time again that they view him as a starter, yet every chance they get, they put him in the bullpen.

I agree with what Brutus said. Plus, one reason they didn't put him at closer right away was that he had to get re-acclimated to relieving and coming in on back to back days. He was getting used to going deeper in games and getting longer rest between uses.

That being said...I still say they bailed on Marshall much too quickly.

westofyou
11-13-2012, 11:30 AM
from BP

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18882




Reds center fielder Billy Hamilton leads off for the West Division team by walking after working a 3-2 count. Pleskoff earlier identified the 22-year-old as the fastest player in the league, and it doesn't take long to see why. Hamilton gets a bad jump, Yankees catcher Austin Romine (age 23) throws a strike to second, and it still isn't close. Hamilton then steals third on a return throw from Romine to the pitcher. If you blink, you miss it. Romine blinked.

In his next trip to the plate, Hamilton strikes out looking at a 1-2 curveball. It's a seven-pitch at-bat mainly consisting of weak foul balls, which brings up a point Pleskoff made this morning: Hamilton has work to do from the left side of the plate.


The thing about Hamilton is that, until you see him, everything sounds like an urban legend. And it isn't just the speed. Make no mistake—he is crazy fast. But beyond that, he is in perpetual attack mode. He is always watching the pitcher and defense, looking for opportunities and weaknesses to exploit.

In the fifth, Hamilton drops a bunt. Astros first baseman Jonathan Singleton (age 21) fields the ball and launches it into right field, allowing Hamilton to reach third. Depending on which expert you believe on Twitter, his time from home to first is between 3.38 and 3.50 seconds. The guy sitting next to me has him at 3.50. We have no words for this, but just kind of giggle like schoolgirls.

Watching Hamilton glide around second is a treat. Again, it is difficult to speak of his feats without sounding like an idiot. The man does things that most people physically cannot do.

Blitz Dorsey
11-13-2012, 11:47 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes please!!!

Man that gets me even more excited about young William. "Perpetual attack mode." Gotta love it.

dougdirt
11-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Still needs to learn to hit better to be a true impact player. The odds of him being an average player have risen dramatically over the last year. He still has plenty of work to do in order to be an impact player though.

Brutus
11-13-2012, 04:20 PM
With that speed, he'll be an impact player with a .340 OBP.

Scrap Irony
11-13-2012, 05:55 PM
Still needs to learn to hit better to be a true impact player. The odds of him being an average player have risen dramatically over the last year. He still has plenty of work to do in order to be an impact player though.

So do all prospects.

Hamilton, if he continues to hit as he did last season, has a real chance to be a legitimate difference-maker both offensively and defensively. A perennial 5.0 WAR+ is not out of the realm of possibility.