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View Full Version : Jay Bruce 2012 Silver Slugger



Degenerate39
11-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Congrats to Jay. Hope you have a ton more

reds1869
11-08-2012, 09:05 PM
Congratulations to Jay; he earned it!

Wonderful Monds
11-08-2012, 09:08 PM
Wow. Ian Desmond is a lot better player than I thought.

westofyou
11-08-2012, 09:39 PM
Wow. Ian Desmond is a lot better player than I thought.

SS hitting is all of the sudden back to 1980s level, low ob% some pop

Tadasimha
11-08-2012, 11:20 PM
Not really sure how Strasburg won over Mike Leake.

Anyway, great job, Jay!

dougdirt
11-08-2012, 11:26 PM
Not really sure how Strasburg won over Mike Leake.


Because Strasburg was better.

Leake - .295/.306/.443 with 1 walk and 20 strikeouts.
Strasburg - .277/.333/.426 with 3 walks and 13 strikeouts.

edabbs44
11-08-2012, 11:30 PM
Because Strasburg was better.

Leake - .295/.306/.443 with 1 walk and 20 strikeouts.
Strasburg - .277/.333/.426 with 3 walks and 13 strikeouts.

Is one of those lines really better than the other?

dougdirt
11-08-2012, 11:35 PM
Is one of those lines really better than the other?

Yes, it is.

Superdude
11-08-2012, 11:39 PM
Because Strasburg was better.

Leake - .295/.306/.443 with 1 walk and 20 strikeouts.
Strasburg - .277/.333/.426 with 3 walks and 13 strikeouts.

Leake had 16 more plate appearances and more RC. I think Tony LaRussa is behind an underground movement to deny all recognition for Reds pitchers. Only explanation.

Tadasimha
11-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Because Strasburg was better.

Leake - .295/.306/.443 with 1 walk and 20 strikeouts.
Strasburg - .277/.333/.426 with 3 walks and 13 strikeouts.

Hardly - Leake also scored 8 runs to Strasburg's 4, had 18 hits to Strasburg's 13, and Leake hit 2 homers to Strasburg's 1. Strasburg did have more RBIs than Leake, 7 to 3.

If this is a hitting award, Leake is the better hitter. Higher average, more hits, OBP and he hit more home runs.

dougdirt
11-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Leake had 16 more plate appearances and more RC. I think Tony LaRussa is behind an underground movement to deny all recognition for Reds pitchers. Only explanation.

I will buy that he had more plate appearances, thus could have been of more value. But when looking at just the two lines, one is certainly stronger than the other.

cincinnati chili
11-08-2012, 11:51 PM
Did Beltran not qualify as a RF? He was significantly better in the box than Bruce.

dougdirt
11-08-2012, 11:52 PM
Hardly - Leake also scored 8 runs to Strasburg's 4, had 18 hits to Strasburg's 13, and Leake hit 2 homers to Strasburg's 1. Strasburg did have more RBIs than Leake, 7 to 3.

If this is a hitting award, Leake is the better hitter. Higher average, more hits, OPS and he hit more home runs.

Leake had a higher average. Strasburg had the higher OPS.

Strasburg had a stronger triple slash. By a decent margin.

Tadasimha
11-09-2012, 12:00 AM
Leake had a higher average. Strasburg had the higher OPS.

Strasburg had a stronger triple slash. By a decent margin.

You're right - I wrote OPS when I meant SLG, not sure why.

I'll still take Leake as a hitter over Strasburg any day.

PuffyPig
11-09-2012, 08:07 AM
Leake had a higher average. Strasburg had the higher OPS.

Strasburg had a stronger triple slash. By a decent margin.

Strasburg's .759 vs. Leake's .749 is a marginal margin. It's less than an extra walk.

hebroncougar
11-09-2012, 09:31 AM
Leake should have won.

Always Red
11-09-2012, 10:03 AM
I just don't have the energy to get worked up over hitting awards for pitchers.

Congrats to Jay Bruce.

redsmetz
11-09-2012, 10:12 AM
I've long since come to accepting that Jay Bruce will be a player who you can only judge by the full picture at season's end. Such an enigma at times during the season. And yet, he now is the only player in MLB history to hit 20 home runs in his rookie season and increase that total in each subsequent season. He and Frank Robinson are the only Reds to hit 20 or more home runs in their first five seasons. And he leads all ML players 25 or younger in career home runs (134, I think). If he ever smooths out the peaks and valleys, he'll only be better (no duh, right?). Congrats, Jay.

edabbs44
11-09-2012, 01:43 PM
Does anyone think that Jay should've won this award? We have seen tons of handwringing over the potential AL vote not taking more modern metrics into account yet no one comments that Jay was likely voted in because of his edge over others in stats such as HR and RBI?

MikeThierry
11-09-2012, 02:48 PM
Call me a homer in this but did Jay really have a better year at the plate than Holliday or Beltran? As I understand, the SS are given to outfielders and isn't limited to RF, LF, and CF. I'm not doubting that Jay had a great year at the plate. His HR's and RBI's would suggest so. However when stacked against Matt Holliday, for example, Holliday blows him away in practically every offensive category except HR's and SLG%.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong in saying that they award it to just 3 OFer's and isn't limited by position.

MikeThierry
11-09-2012, 02:52 PM
I just checked Fangraphs and Holliday was almost 3 WAR better than Bruce was this year. Fielding doesn't play into it because both were bad this year.

Brutus
11-09-2012, 02:57 PM
Leake had a higher average. Strasburg had the higher OPS.

Strasburg had a stronger triple slash. By a decent margin.

Doug, you realize that if Leake had one more plate appearance... a single, he has a better OPS than Strasburg?

That's how meaningless Strasburg's edge in OPS is over Leake. There was no "decent margin." It's the batting equivalent to 'last team with the ball wins.'

Red in Chicago
11-09-2012, 03:04 PM
I will buy that he had more plate appearances, thus could have been of more value. But when looking at just the two lines, one is certainly stronger than the other.

Doug, you probably get more grief on this board than anyone, but for this post, you would deserve it ;)

Patrick Bateman
11-09-2012, 03:13 PM
Doug, you realize that if Leake had one more plate appearance... a single, he has a better OPS than Strasburg?

That's how meaningless Strasburg's edge in OPS is over Leake. There was no "decent margin." It's the batting equivalent to 'last team with the ball wins.'

Ya, I'd call this one a flip of the coin.

Defining one guy's stats as better than the other when we are talking about such thin margins is really bad statistical analysis.

Always Red
11-09-2012, 03:21 PM
Ya, I'd call this one a flip of the coin.

Defining one guy's stats as better than the other when we are talking about such thin margins is really bad statistical analysis.

Yeah, and especially since one guy is a much better pitcher, it's no surprise he got the nod.

MikeThierry
11-09-2012, 03:24 PM
Isn't it almost kind of pointless to argue who gets the SS at the pitcher position?

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Doug, you realize that if Leake had one more plate appearance... a single, he has a better OPS than Strasburg?

That's how meaningless Strasburg's edge in OPS is over Leake. There was no "decent margin." It's the batting equivalent to 'last team with the ball wins.'

Small sample size and all, we will see big swings with one at bat. Still, there was a solid advantage in OBP and overall plate discipline. Give me Strasburg.

Brutus
11-09-2012, 07:31 PM
Small sample size and all, we will see big swings with one at bat. Still, there was a solid advantage in OBP and overall plate discipline. Give me Strasburg.

That's the thing. I don't see how anything that can come down to a swing of one plate appearance can possibly be called a "solid advantage" or "decent margin" in anything. If you prefer Strasburg, that's fine...it's certainly debatable. But there's no possible way you can make heads from tails in that sample statistically.

edabbs44
11-11-2012, 10:57 AM
Call me a homer in this but did Jay really have a better year at the plate than Holliday or Beltran? As I understand, the SS are given to outfielders and isn't limited to RF, LF, and CF. I'm not doubting that Jay had a great year at the plate. His HR's and RBI's would suggest so. However when stacked against Matt Holliday, for example, Holliday blows him away in practically every offensive category except HR's and SLG%.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong in saying that they award it to just 3 OFer's and isn't limited by position.

Not a homer thought. And also, you are correct in that it is 3 OFers regardless of position.

Unassisted
11-11-2012, 11:31 AM
Yeah, and especially since one guy is a much better pitcher, it's no surprise he got the nod.The criteria for these awards is probably a lot like the Gold Glove awards, which seem to incorporate hitting into what is ostensibly a fielding award. If the hitting stats are similar, the edge goes to the better pitcher.

nate
11-11-2012, 11:31 AM
It's nice and all and Jay had a good season but I don't think he was even close to being one of the top-3 with the bat this past year. To me, the third spot should've been Holiday or perhaps even Dexter Fowler.

OnBaseMachine
11-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Call me a homer in this but did Jay really have a better year at the plate than Holliday or Beltran? As I understand, the SS are given to outfielders and isn't limited to RF, LF, and CF. I'm not doubting that Jay had a great year at the plate. His HR's and RBI's would suggest so. However when stacked against Matt Holliday, for example, Holliday blows him away in practically every offensive category except HR's and SLG%.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong in saying that they award it to just 3 OFer's and isn't limited by position.

They should give every single award available to the Cardinals.

edabbs44
11-11-2012, 07:26 PM
They should give every single award available to the Cardinals.

That's not really fair.

mattfeet
11-11-2012, 09:09 PM
They should give every single award available to the Cardinals.

Makes up for Leake not winning, Cueto not in top-3, not a single gold-glove out of 6 nominations, brutal first round exit, Cueto getting hurt, etc. etc. etc. Let us enjoy this one. :beerme:

-Matt

OnBaseMachine
11-12-2012, 06:26 PM
Makes up for Leake not winning, Cueto not in top-3, not a single gold-glove out of 6 nominations, brutal first round exit, Cueto getting hurt, etc. etc. etc. Let us enjoy this one. :beerme:

-Matt

Exactly.

MikeThierry
11-13-2012, 12:14 PM
They should give every single award available to the Cardinals.

Kind of silly considering I've never advocated such a thing. Can you objectively say that Bruce had a better year than Holliday did? If you can, please make your case. Otherwise, don't put words in my mouth or don't assume something I don't think.

Redhook
11-13-2012, 07:56 PM
Can you objectively say that Bruce had a better year than Holliday did?

No, you're right. Holliday's year was better and it wasn't close. I'm not sure how or why Bruce beat him out.

westofyou
11-13-2012, 11:18 PM
No, you're right. Holliday's year was better and it wasn't close. I'm not sure how or why Bruce beat him out.

Here's the NL Centrals top ten in OPS vs their league

Fielding Runs above average added for fodder



OPS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE EBH FRAA
1 Ryan Braun .268 .987 .718 80 2
2 Andrew McCutchen .234 .953 .718 66 0
3 Ryan Ludwick .158 .877 .718 55 -6
4 Matt Holliday .158 .877 .718 65 -13
5 Carlos Beltran .123 .842 .718 59 -5
6 Jay Bruce .123 .841 .718 74 9
7 Alfonso Soriano .103 .821 .718 67 8
8 Norichika Aoki .069 .787 .718 51 -6
9 Jon Jay .054 .773 .718 30 15
10 Carlos Gomez .049 .768 .718 42 4

Bumstead
11-15-2012, 03:19 PM
Can you objectively say that Bruce had a better year than Holliday did?

Yes.

klw
11-15-2012, 03:59 PM
I will buy that he had more plate appearances, thus could have been of more value. But when looking at just the two lines, one is certainly stronger than the other.

One place where Leake has a clear advantage was in sacrifices- 7 to 2. This is one area actually important with pitchers and what they are often asked to do (whether or not it is right to ask them).

The league leader in sacrifices was Cincinnati's own Johnny Cueto with 17 (tied with Juan Pierre)

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/league/nl/sort/sacHits/qualified/false/type/expanded

TeamBoone
11-15-2012, 09:54 PM
Maybe some of you don't think Jay deserved the award (I do). He was player of the week on several occasions as well as being clutch A LOT. Congrats, Jay.

PuffyPig
11-15-2012, 10:19 PM
No, you're right. Holliday's year was better and it wasn't close. I'm not sure how or why Bruce beat him out.

Holliday had a better OPS, but it was about 30 points. Bruce had way better speed.

Bruce's OPS was about 70 points higher with RISP.

It wasn't close? I'm not seeing that.

edabbs44
11-15-2012, 10:24 PM
Holliday had a better OPS, but it was about 30 points. Bruce had way better speed.

Bruce's OPS was about 70 points higher with RISP.

It wasn't close? I'm not seeing that.

How does speed factor into a slugger award?

Patrick Bateman
11-15-2012, 11:11 PM
How does speed factor into a slugger award?

Well, he was quoting a post that said "Holliday's year was way better," which suggested the poster was not discussing completely from a Silver Slugger perspective.

PuffyPig
11-15-2012, 11:14 PM
How does speed factor into a slugger award?

I believe it's based on offense. Speed is certainly an aspect of offense. So is getting walks. So is BA. It's not simply given to the best "slugger".

edabbs44
11-15-2012, 11:42 PM
Well, he was quoting a post that said "Holliday's year was way better," which suggested the poster was not discussing completely from a Silver Slugger perspective.

He closed it by saying "I'm not sure how or why Bruce beat him out" so he was obviously talking about the award.

edabbs44
11-15-2012, 11:47 PM
I believe it's based on offense. Speed is certainly an aspect of offense. So is getting walks. So is BA. It's not simply given to the best "slugger".

I think the traditional triple crown numbers predominantly drive the Silver Slugger voting.

PuffyPig
11-16-2012, 12:00 AM
He closed it by saying "I'm not sure how or why Bruce beat him out" so he was obviously talking about the award.

I thought he was talking about the award.

But the silver slugger award is given to the player with the best offensive contribution. Speed is a definite component of offense. Bruce can run rings around the plodding Holliday. He hit 70 points in OPS better with RISP. That more than makes up the marginal 30 or so points in general OPS.

Especially when all I was responding to was that Holliday had the "way better [offensive] year". He didn't.

PuffyPig
11-16-2012, 12:03 AM
I think the traditional triple crown numbers predominantly drive the Silver Slugger voting.

Based on what?

Since the only criteria listed is "offense", voters can decide themselves what constitutes offense.

edabbs44
11-16-2012, 12:10 AM
Based on what?

Since the only criteria listed is "offense", voters can decide themselves what constitutes offense.


They base their selections on a combination of offensive statistics including batting average, on-base percentage, and slugging percentage, as well as the coaches’ and managers’ general impressions of a player’s overall offensive value.

Since the traditional numbers are highlighted, and based upon the past winners, I think much more weight is given to those areas. Especially power numbers.

PuffyPig
11-16-2012, 07:39 AM
Since the traditional numbers are highlighted, and based upon the past winners, I think much more weight is given to those areas. Especially power numbers.

"Especially power numbers" suggest that Bruce was picked becuase he had the 2nd most EBH and 2nd best ISO among OF's in the NL.

Redhook
11-16-2012, 08:14 PM
I thought he was talking about the award.

But the silver slugger award is given to the player with the best offensive contribution. Speed is a definite component of offense. Bruce can run rings around the plodding Holliday. He hit 70 points in OPS better with RISP. That more than makes up the marginal 30 or so points in general OPS.

Especially when all I was responding to was that Holliday had the "way better [offensive] year". He didn't.

I was talking about the award.

Looking over all the stats again and reading all the comments, I still believe Holliday had a better year in the Silver Slugger categories. I went a bit too far by saying it was way better, but I still believe it was better. It pains me to say that because I love Bruce and the fact that he plays for the Reds. And, on top of that, I'd rather have Bruce than Holliday on my team, and believe he's the better player overall.

Bruce is faster and a better runner than Holliday, but Bruce only had 9 stolen bases. He's no speed demon himself so I'm not sure how that would've separated him that much from Holliday for this award.

Both were weaker than normal with RISP with Holliday being worse. I'm not sold that the difference in OPS with RISP makes up the difference for the entire year's OPS. But, I understand your thoughts on that.

Why I truly believe Holliday's year was better for the Silver Slugger award is because his batting average and on-base percentage were so much higher than Jay's. Way higher. Based on those stats, Holliday was the tougher out. That's pretty important to me.

Hopefully, next year, this award will again be awarded to Bruce and it will be a no-brainer! :beerme:

PuffyPig
11-16-2012, 09:04 PM
I was talking about the award.

Looking over all the stats again and reading all the comments, I still believe Holliday had a better year in the Silver Slugger categories. I went a bit too far by saying it was way better, but I still believe it was better. It pains me to say that because I love Bruce and the fact that he plays for the Reds. And, on top of that, I'd rather have Bruce than Holliday on my team, and believe he's the better player overall.

Bruce is faster and a better runner than Holliday, but Bruce only had 9 stolen bases. He's no speed demon himself so I'm not sure how that would've separated him that much from Holliday for this award.

Both were weaker than normal with RISP with Holliday being worse. I'm not sold that the difference in OPS with RISP makes up the difference for the entire year's OPS. But, I understand your thoughts on that.

Why I truly believe Holliday's year was better for the Silver Slugger award is because his batting average and on-base percentage were so much higher than Jay's. Way higher. Based on those stats, Holliday was the tougher out. That's pretty important to me.

Hopefully, next year, this award will again be awarded to Bruce and it will be a no-brainer! :beerme:

Holliday also ranks near the top in being a dirty filthy Cardinal. That knocks him down to Cairo/Valdez range, IMO.