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View Full Version : Jocketty: Reds could trade a shortstop



Tom Servo
11-09-2012, 12:04 AM
The Reds have two talented shortstops on their 40-man roster: Zack Cozart, 27, and Didi Gregorius, 22. Both are far away from free agency, meaning one could be dealt to fill a more immediate need.
In fact, Jocketty told FOXSports.com Thursday that its possible he will trade one of them this winter.
It depends if we get back what we need, Jocketty said. If we dont, then I wont mind holding onto them.
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/jocketty_reds_could_trade_shortstop_this_winter/12165043


They go on to suggest the A's as a fit with Coco Crisp coming to the Reds.

Vottomatic
11-09-2012, 07:46 AM
Ugh. Coco Crisp. No thanks.

lollipopcurve
11-09-2012, 08:19 AM
I'd be stunned if they dealt Cozart or Didi (in a package) for anything other than a middle of the order bat or a rock solid starter. CF is coming from within soon enough, and closer will either be a free agent or Chapman.

Dan
11-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Leake and Gregorius as a significant portion of a package for Justin Upton?

Benihana
11-09-2012, 09:04 AM
Leake and Gregorius as a significant portion of a package for Justin Upton?

Yes please.

camisadelgolf
11-09-2012, 09:04 AM
Leake and Gregorius as a significant portion of a package for Justin Upton?
Are you kidding me? Leake, Gregorius, Cingrani, and someone else e.g. Drew Hayes or Josh Smith for Upton? Yes, please. Heck, maybe even Chad Rogers or Drew Cisco, too.

HotCorner
11-09-2012, 10:54 AM
Leake and Gregorius as a significant portion of a package for Justin Upton?

Co-sign. I'd even consider dealing Cozart instead of Didi. The Reds have been looking for a right-handed middle of the order bat for several seasons.

Chip R
11-09-2012, 11:02 AM
They must be pretty high on Gregorious if they are talking about dealing Cozart.

Scrap Irony
11-09-2012, 11:04 AM
Are you kidding me? Leake, Gregorius, Cingrani, and someone else e.g. Drew Hayes or Josh Smith for Upton? Yes, please. Heck, maybe even Chad Rogers or Drew Cisco, too.

Leake, Cozart (I think he has the better trade value), Cingrani, and Yorman Rodriguez is a pretty good haul, IMO, and one Arizona may bite on.

The 2011 Upton would go a long way to making the Reds offense outstanding.

oneupper
11-09-2012, 11:05 AM
They must be pretty high on Gregorious if they are talking about dealing Cozart.

Well, he IS Dutch (born in Amsterdam, I didn't know that 5 minutes ago).

dunner13
11-09-2012, 11:11 AM
Would be nice to get them to throw in Bauer as well since they seem to be way down on him. I'm sure we would have to give up some good players to get both Upton and Bauer but it could be worth it to have a young middle of the order bat and young potential top starter.

MikeS21
11-09-2012, 11:21 AM
Cozart is solid defensively, but not spectacular. You are not going to see a lot of SportsCenter highlights of Zack playing SS. Didi is probably the better defensive player.

Offensively, Cozart does have some pop, but I'm not sold that his bat will be anything more than what we have seen. I have not seen enough of Didi to know what he will bring to the table, although I am convinced his bat has a LONG way to go.

Every time I start lamenting over the lack of offense at SS, I am reminded of the early 70's when a light-hitting, good-fielding young fellow named Davey Concepcion was handed the SS job. His bat eventually became respectable.

WildcatFan
11-09-2012, 12:05 PM
It's still November and already our Hot Stove has turned into a Dutch Oven.

traderumor
11-09-2012, 12:11 PM
Cozart is solid defensively, but not spectacular. You are not going to see a lot of SportsCenter highlights of Zack playing SS. Didi is probably the better defensive player.

Offensively, Cozart does have some pop, but I'm not sold that his bat will be anything more than what we have seen. I have not seen enough of Didi to know what he will bring to the table, although I am convinced his bat has a LONG way to go.

Every time I start lamenting over the lack of offense at SS, I am reminded of the early 70's when a light-hitting, good-fielding young fellow named Davey Concepcion was handed the SS job. His bat eventually became respectable.Cozart had several stellar plays last year and also showed good range. I don't trust Gregorius' bat. Looks like a defensive specialist to me. I'd deal him if I had my druthers.

CySeymour
11-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Cozart had several stellar plays last year and also showed good range. I don't trust Gregorius' bat. Looks like a defensive specialist to me. I'd deal him if I had my druthers.

I think the age difference is something to also take into account. At 27, Cozart isn't bound to get much better with the bat, but Gregorius, being 22, could still have some room to improve offensively.

PuffyPig
11-09-2012, 12:36 PM
Cozart was better defensively than what I thought he would be.

He's likley not going to improve substantially with the bat, but he's a fairly good all around SS.

If the Reds thing that Didi can duplicate that, I'm OK with trading Cozart. Didi still has upside to improve.

corkedbat
11-09-2012, 12:49 PM
I expect Cozart to imporve his OBP over time, but not a great deal (somewhere in the .320-.330 range). I think he has more value right now, so I'd consider dealing him, but only for a top return. Considering the premium for starting SS's right now and the fact that he's cheap and under club control for several more seasons, I'd want a starting OF/3B or solid starter for a package that included him. I'd certainly want more than Coco Crisp.

bucksfan2
11-09-2012, 12:54 PM
Pick one SS and then go from then. If you have Cozart at SS you have (5?) more years of him cost controlled. It makes little sense to keep a trading piece on your bench because he is the back up SS. If you can't draft and develop a SS in 5 years then thats your issue.

If you can't tell I am in Cozart's camp. He was very solid defensively last season and has some nice pop in his bat. I have a feeling he will improve a little with the bat and don't see his defensive range going anywhere over the next 5 years or so.

Dom Heffner
11-09-2012, 12:57 PM
Ugh. Coco Crisp. No thanks.

Coco Crisp is one of those guys who feels like an upgrade, and then you look at his WAR and you realize he isn't.

Perception is a funny thing.

mdccclxix
11-09-2012, 01:08 PM
I wouldn't really count on many .320 OBP seasons from Cozart, that may be nearer to his high water mark.

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 01:09 PM
If forced to choose to keep just one, I would keep Gregorius. I think he could replicate what Cozart does offensively with a little less pop and would give you better defense right now. With development in the bat, he will be a little better of a player.

RANDY IN INDY
11-09-2012, 01:11 PM
Pick one SS and then go from then. If you have Cozart at SS you have (5?) more years of him cost controlled. It makes little sense to keep a trading piece on your bench because he is the back up SS. If you can't draft and develop a SS in 5 years then thats your issue.

If you can't tell I am in Cozart's camp. He was very solid defensively last season and has some nice pop in his bat. I have a feeling he will improve a little with the bat and don't see his defensive range going anywhere over the next 5 years or so.

I like Cozart. He was very solid, and in his first full season. I also think he will improve some with the bat. Not spectacular in the field but makes all the plays.

traderumor
11-09-2012, 01:12 PM
Ode to Didi:
'Twas the night before trading...and visions of Pokey Reese danced in my head.

RANDY IN INDY
11-09-2012, 01:12 PM
Coco Crisp is one of those guys who feels like an upgrade, and then you look at his WAR and you realize he isn't.

Perception is a funny thing.

:beerme:

M2
11-09-2012, 01:21 PM
One thing, potentially, to factor in here is Gregorius' role in shifting Billy Hamilton to CF. Maybe the Reds make that shift regardless of the organizational SS situation, but I sort of doubt that. If Cozart, who is going to be OB challenged throughout his career, is the only block to Hamilton at SS, it creates a very good argument to keeping Hamilton at SS for at least one more season.

Yet the Reds also had a kid with a sweet glove and a working stick advancing one level ahead of Hamilton. What the brass decided on might have been a long-range plan that involves Hamilton in CF and Didi at SS. I that's the case, then Cozart would be the player to deal. He's surely got some market right now and other teams definitely could use him.

It really depends on how high the front office is on Gregorius.

bucksfan2
11-09-2012, 01:22 PM
I wouldn't really count on many .320 OBP seasons from Cozart, that may be nearer to his high water mark.

In 600 at bats some are already pigeon holing his OBP? I think his batting will see some improvement just based upon development. Get Cozart out of the leadoff spot and hit him down in the order and I think you will see his production increase.

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 01:26 PM
In 600 at bats some are already pigeon holing his OBP? I think his batting will see some improvement just based upon development. Get Cozart out of the leadoff spot and hit him down in the order and I think you will see his production increase.

You do realize that Cozart turned 27 during the past baseball season don't you? Guys don't exactly flip on a switch at that age.

Also, aside from batting him 8th where he would just be walked to get to the pitcher more, why would Cozart benefit from moving down in the lineup?

edabbs44
11-09-2012, 01:32 PM
Coco Crisp is one of those guys who feels like an upgrade, and then you look at his WAR and you realize he isn't.

Perception is a funny thing.

Perceptions of WAR can be equally humorous.

Benihana
11-09-2012, 01:58 PM
There is just something about DiDi that reminds me a little too much of the Gookies and Pokeys (and Bergollas and Olmedos) of the past.

I hope he proves me wrong, but if I have to choose between the two, I'd probably keep Cozart.

Let's hope and trust the Reds make the right decision and this plays out like the Larkin/Stillwell sequel 25 years later. Hopefully it does better than Wall Street 2: Money Never Sleeps.

RedsManRick
11-09-2012, 01:59 PM
One thing, potentially, to factor in here is Gregorius' role in shifting Billy Hamilton to CF. Maybe the Reds make that shift regardless of the organizational SS situation, but I sort of doubt that. If Cozart, who is going to be OB challenged throughout his career, is the only block to Hamilton at SS, it creates a very good argument to keeping Hamilton at SS for at least one more season.

Yet the Reds also had a kid with a sweet glove and a working stick advancing one level ahead of Hamilton. What the brass decided on might have been a long-range plan that involves Hamilton in CF and Didi at SS. I that's the case, then Cozart would be the player to deal. He's surely got some market right now and other teams definitely could use him.

It really depends on how high the front office is on Gregorius.

I think the presence of Gregorius may have been more of a convenient excuse to move him to CF without hurting his confidence than a true reason for the move. Surely it's at minimum some of both.

osuceltic
11-09-2012, 02:29 PM
Shortstop is one of those positions where if the offense is reasonably close, I always go with the better defensive player. Since I don't expect much more from Cozart, I think ultimately he and Gregorious will be reasonably comparable offensively. Since Gregorious is the better defender, I would go with Gregorious.

Throw in the age difference and I actually think it's pretty clear cut.

The one thing this doesn't consider is trade value. I'm guessing Gregorious probably has slightly higher value, but since I doubt it's significantly different, I wouldn't let that impact the decision.

M2
11-09-2012, 02:50 PM
I think the presence of Gregorius may have been more of a convenient excuse to move him to CF without hurting his confidence than a true reason for the move. Surely it's at minimum some of both.

I doubt confidence was an issue. Hamilton surely has plenty. If you're a kid and the organization comes to you and says, "We think you're a solid SS, but you could be a great CF, so we're shifting you to CF," what you hear is you're going to be a great CF.

I'd be stunned if Gregorius' name ever came up when discussing the shift with Hamilton.

Meanwhile the folks in the front office are paid to the think about the big picture. And they seem to be thinking big picture. The core of Votto-Bruce-Phillips is locked up for another five years. So who's the SS they see playing for that team? We know it's not Hamilton. Maybe it's Cozart, but given his age I'm far from sold on it.

We can't know for sure, but it's highly possible the Reds' big picture involves Gregorius at SS. He's got no one pushing from behind him now. Put it this way, the Hamilton move has major repercussions for Gregorius. At the very least, the front office had to be aware of that.

bucksfan2
11-09-2012, 02:51 PM
You do realize that Cozart turned 27 during the past baseball season don't you? Guys don't exactly flip on a switch at that age.

Also, aside from batting him 8th where he would just be walked to get to the pitcher more, why would Cozart benefit from moving down in the lineup?

He has had one full seasons worth of at bats. I think that a player can improve after one year in the big leagues.

RedsManRick
11-09-2012, 02:52 PM
Shortstop is one of those positions where if the offense is reasonably close, I always go with the better defensive player. Since I don't expect much more from Cozart, I think ultimately he and Gregorious will be reasonably comparable offensively. Since Gregorious is the better defender, I would go with Gregorious.

Throw in the age difference and I actually think it's pretty clear cut.

The one thing this doesn't consider is trade value. I'm guessing Gregorious probably has slightly higher value, but since I doubt it's significantly different, I wouldn't let that impact the decision.

Is Didi the better defender? Cozart rated quite well out there, both via the stats and the eye test. I wouldn't downplay the value of Cozart's power.

By far the biggest differentiator between them is age. Cozart is in his prime right now. Didi G will be 23. Cozart may be more attractive to a win-now team, while Didi more valuable to a team that's looking a few years down the road.

bucksfan2
11-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Is Didi the better defender? Cozart rated quite well out there, both via the stats and the eye test. I wouldn't downplay the value of Cozart's power.

By far the biggest differentiator between them is age. Cozart is in his prime right now. Didi G will be 23. Cozart may be more attractive to a win-now team, while Didi more valuable to a team that's looking a few years down the road.

Aren't the Reds in a win now mode?

Wonderful Monds
11-09-2012, 03:02 PM
Leake and Gregorius as a significant portion of a package for Justin Upton?

Sounds good. After that I suggest we trade Drew Stubbs for Miguel Cabrera and Justin Verlander.

traderumor
11-09-2012, 03:21 PM
Aren't the Reds in a win now mode?
Yes, but I think the argument forming is that the Reds would be ok with either guy, so deal the one with more current market value. I'd say the "win now" team would pay more for Cozart than the "building" team will for Gregorius.

And I join in the question begged that assumes Didi is a better glove. Flashier, perhaps. Better, not sure that is easy to win the day on that one at this stage.

Also, while I am concerned about Didi's stick, Cozart is a little bit of a teaser with the power potential, but he was also an out machine in his first full year. Either way, this certainly isn't a Larkin/Stillwell call. More like Ron Oester/Jeff Treadway.

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 03:26 PM
He has had one full seasons worth of at bats. I think that a player can improve after one year in the big leagues.

Your belief of that is likely based around rookies typically getting better, but typical rookies don't turn 27 during their rookie season. On the offensive bell curve, 27 is usually the peak. History tells us that Cozart is very close to what he is.

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 03:28 PM
Is Didi the better defender? Cozart rated quite well out there, both via the stats and the eye test.

Yes, he is. Better range, better arm, better athleticism and he is nearly as sure in the field.

RedsManRick
11-09-2012, 03:39 PM
Aren't the Reds in a win now mode?

Sure, but every team has a different set of needs. A team that has a massive hole in at SS who is in win now mode will value him differently than a team that is also in win now mode but who has a capable replacement in the wings.

Benihana
11-09-2012, 04:05 PM
By the way, I still think a DiDi-centered deal for Ellsbury makes a ton of sense for both sides. Add a pitcher (Corcino, Cingrani, Leake- in that order of preference for me) and I'd imagine the Sox have a hard time turning that down.

Yes he'd be a one year rental, but a superb one for the Reds. Would start in CF but could move to LF if/when Hamilton is ready. Assuming he's healthy, Reds would tender him and get a first round pick when he leaves via FA next year.

M2
11-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Sure, but every team has a different set of needs. A team that has a massive hole in at SS who is in win now mode will value him differently than a team that is also in win now mode but who has a capable replacement in the wings.

QFT, either Cozart or Gregorius could be awfully appealing to a team with a gaping hole at SS. And either way, the Reds retain a glove man with some potential goodness in his bat.

_Sir_Charles_
11-09-2012, 04:07 PM
They must be pretty high on Gregorious if they are talking about dealing Cozart.

I'd guess their ages are a big factor.

Chip R
11-09-2012, 04:15 PM
I'd guess their ages are a big factor.

Sure, but they aren't going to shop Cozart and move Hamilton to CF if they think Didi is a spaz.

_Sir_Charles_
11-09-2012, 04:19 PM
QFT, either Cozart or Gregorius could be awfully appealing to a team with a gaping hole at SS. And either way, the Reds retain a glove man with some potential goodness in his bat.

With next to nothing behind them. Let's remember, we deal one of them and the one we keep gets injured...who's next on the depth chart? I'd guess a Jeff Keppinger-type.

I say we keep Cozart. And let Didi have another year at AAA to see what we really have. If he starts out well, promote him as a back-up. But I just don't think he's ready for the bigs just yet offensively.

Tom Servo
11-09-2012, 04:23 PM
With next to nothing behind them. Let's remember, we deal one of them and the one we keep gets injured...who's next on the depth chart?
Brodie Greene

M2
11-09-2012, 04:27 PM
With next to nothing behind them. Let's remember, we deal one of them and the one we keep gets injured...who's next on the depth chart?

It's an abyss for sure, but that's why Cozart/Gregorius should have value. Some organizations have to go the abyss for their first option.

And the ultimate answer to your question is the backup SS option is whomever the Reds sign this winter. In a perfect world, the Reds trade a SS for something super exciting and sign Maicer Izturis to cover the IF (play some SS, defensive replacement/spot starter at 3B).

Wonderful Monds
11-09-2012, 04:35 PM
It's an abyss for sure, but that's why Cozart/Gregorius should have value. Some organizations have to go the abyss for their first option.

And the ultimate answer to your question is the backup SS option is whomever the Reds sign this winter. In a perfect world, the Reds trade a SS for something super exciting and sign Maicer Izturis to cover the IF (play some SS, defensive replacement/spot starter at 3B).

Izturis already signed with Toronto.

M2
11-09-2012, 04:40 PM
Izturis already signed with Toronto.

So much for a perfect world. I suppose that makes Ronny Cedeno the top utility IF on the board, at least if you factor in ability to play SS (and assuming he hasn't signed with anyone either).

Wonderful Monds
11-09-2012, 04:47 PM
So much for a perfect world. I suppose that makes Ronny Cedeno the top utility IF on the board, at least if you factor in ability to play SS (and assuming he hasn't signed with anyone either).

I wonder if Keppinger could still fill in at SS without completely falling on his face.

dfs
11-09-2012, 04:55 PM
I wonder if Keppinger could still fill in at SS without completely falling on his face.

He couldn't then. He can't now.

Rojo
11-09-2012, 05:32 PM
I wonder if Keppinger could still fill in at SS without completely falling on his face.

Get a legit 4/5/6 glove, even if the stick's weak. Then you can focus on bats for the remaining spots. Guys like Kepp or Theriot are neither fish nor fowl -- ok if you have a hole -- but they create work around problems on the bench.

Wonderful Monds
11-09-2012, 05:36 PM
Get a legit 4/5/6 glove, even if the stick's weak. Then you can focus on bats for the remaining spots. Guys like Kepp or Theriot are neither fish nor fowl -- ok if you have a hole -- but they create work around problems on the bench.

Good point. He'd make a good Cairo though.

dfs
11-09-2012, 05:45 PM
Good point. He'd make a good Cairo though.
Yes. He would make an excellent Cairo. Would probably cost about the same as well.

Kc61
11-09-2012, 05:51 PM
I'd prefer to keep Cozart over Gregorius.

Cozart hitting seventh in the order, or possibly eighth, is a very strong offensive shortstop. I know his OBP is subpar, and hopefully will improve, but shortstops with 33 doubles and 15 homers as a rookie don't grow on trees.

And Cozart is outstanding defensively. He was a Gold Glove finalist, his UZR rating is (I believe) best among Reds regulars, he is very sure handed, has good range, throws accurately.

Nobody knows, but I doubt Didi will be as good offensively, he certainly won't have the power. Didi will have more range but Cozart's sure hands are hard to find.

I'd trade either guy for Justin Upton, but for a lesser player I might trade Didi but would hold on to Zack.

_Sir_Charles_
11-09-2012, 06:15 PM
I wonder if Keppinger could still fill in at SS without completely falling on his face.

If that's your baseline, then Frazier can do it. So can Valiaka, Negron, etc.

Don't ask me though, I'm still mildly upset about us signing Valdez when we had Janish already. If we hadn't signed Valdez, the problem would be solved because we'd still have Janish as a backup SS at Louisville.

15fan
11-09-2012, 07:32 PM
Anyone else nervous that going down this road again is just asking for the besbol gods to even the scorecard from the "we'll keep Larkin & deal Stillwell" move?

dougdirt
11-09-2012, 07:57 PM
Anyone else nervous that going down this road again is just asking for the besbol gods to even the scorecard from the "we'll keep Larkin & deal Stillwell" move?

No. Neither of these guys are close to Larkin (and neither was Stillwell for that matter). Both are more along the lines of Stillwell.

LegallyMinded
11-09-2012, 08:57 PM
So much for a perfect world. I suppose that makes Ronny Cedeno the top utility IF on the board, at least if you factor in ability to play SS (and assuming he hasn't signed with anyone either).

Don't forget Stephen Drew is a free agent. There was a time when Redzone would have jumped at the chance to acquire him.

As it stands, Drew actually did have a decent, albeit short, run in Oakland in the latter half of this year. I would think he could still be a fine utility infielder.

M2
11-10-2012, 01:31 AM
Anyone else nervous that going down this road again is just asking for the besbol gods to even the scorecard from the "we'll keep Larkin & deal Stillwell" move?

Nah, neither one of these guys is a Larkin, who was a way more complete ballplayer.

That brings me back to something that flummoxes me about Gregorius: why doesn't he steal? He's got some speed around the bases. By all rights he should be able to swipe 20+ bases. Yet he's got no running game.

corkedbat
11-10-2012, 01:55 AM
HRod could probably serve as a reserve SS, but not sure you'd want him there for an extended stretch. I'd say if they deal Cozart or Didi, they bring in a journeyman and have HRod in L'Ville in case of injury.

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-10-2012, 02:50 AM
Anyone else nervous that going down this road again is just asking for the besbol gods to even the scorecard from the "we'll keep Larkin & deal Stillwell" move?

No. After Griffey's injuries, the 2000s and the 2010 and 2012 NLDS, I'd say the baseball gods have gotten bored tormenting us. Hopefully they're refocusing their attention on St. Louis.

thatcoolguy_22
11-10-2012, 06:05 AM
No. After Griffey's injuries, the 2000s and the 2010 and 2012 NLDS, I'd say the baseball gods have gotten bored tormenting us. Hopefully they're refocusing their attention on St. Louis.

You do realize the baseball gods are all actually cardinals right?

GAC
11-10-2012, 06:42 AM
I really don't care for Coco Crisp. I realize he would be an upgrade as far as what we had in lead-off this year; but again, career-wise leading off, we're still looking at a .322 OB%.

But could he be our answer as far as a stop-gap goes with Hamilton? Crisp will make $7M in 2013, with a club option for 2014.

Wouldn't Juan Pierre be a cheaper option?

camisadelgolf
11-10-2012, 07:19 AM
Pierre is a defensive liability in left field, and I think he'd be an even bigger liability in center.

HokieRed
11-10-2012, 09:55 AM
Does this dealing a SS talk possibly mean FO thinks Hamilton can play it? e.g.: Bourn or Span in CF, Hamilton to SS, deal for a LF involving Cozart or Didi?

mth123
11-10-2012, 10:27 AM
Does this dealing a SS talk possibly mean FO thinks Hamilton can play it? e.g.: Bourn or Span in CF, Hamilton to SS, deal for a LF involving Cozart or Didi?

I think it more likely means that they know they can bring in a cheap defensive guy like Valdez or Janish any time they want to back-up the guy they choose to keep.

lollipopcurve
11-10-2012, 10:39 AM
Does this dealing a SS talk possibly mean FO thinks Hamilton can play it? e.g.: Bourn or Span in CF, Hamilton to SS, deal for a LF involving Cozart or Didi?

I don't think so. I think they like either Cozart or Didi long-term at SS. Hamilton will be in CF (or LF if they bring in someone like Bourn).

corkedbat
11-10-2012, 12:19 PM
I wasn't that interested in Bourn before he got a qualifying offer. Now that he has one, my interest level is at zero.

Benihana
11-11-2012, 09:49 AM
I wasn't that interested in Bourn before he got a qualifying offer. Now that he has one, my interest level is at zero.