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MoneyInTheBank
11-09-2012, 05:47 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/reds-could-trade-zack-cozart-or-didi-gregorius.html

Personally, I'd have to be blown away to trade Gregorius. A 22 year old whose glove is ready right now and a bat comparable (minus the power) to the current starting SS. I think we forget since it was his rookie season that Cozart is 27 years old. Not saying he's old, but Gregorius has to be rated well above Cozart in the organizational structure IMO

HometownHero
11-09-2012, 06:45 PM
I would like to send Stubbs and Cozart to Toronto for Yunel Escobar and Colby Rasmus and then sign Melky to play LF. Toronto saves some money and everyone gets a change of scenery.

SS Yunel Escobar R
LF Melky Cabrera S
1B Joey Votto L
2B Brandon Phillips R
RF Jay Bruce L
3B Todd Frazier R
CF Colby Rasmus L
Whoever Catches

This lineup and the fact we play half our games at GABP could lead the NL in runs.

Hillsdale87
11-09-2012, 07:17 PM
I would like to send Stubbs and Cozart to Toronto for Yunel Escobar and Colby Rasmus and then sign Melky to play LF. Toronto saves some money and everyone gets a change of scenery.


Only if Rasmus get his haircut... Not a good look :laugh:

foxfire123
11-09-2012, 07:42 PM
Problem with Rasmus is if you trade for him, you also trade for Daddy Dearest. And Colby listens to *nobody* about anything but Daddy Dearest.

Until Colby develops a backbone and tells dad to MYOB, I'd rather not see him play for the Reds.

MoneyInTheBank
11-09-2012, 08:01 PM
I would like to send Stubbs and Cozart to Toronto for Yunel Escobar and Colby Rasmus and then sign Melky to play LF. Toronto saves some money and everyone gets a change of scenery.

SS Yunel Escobar R
LF Melky Cabrera S
1B Joey Votto L
2B Brandon Phillips R
RF Jay Bruce L
3B Todd Frazier R
CF Colby Rasmus L
Whoever Catches

This lineup and the fact we play half our games at GABP could lead the NL in runs.

I just feel like with that trade, you are trading 2 underachievers with good attitudes for 2 underachievers with bad attitudes. You are getting no increase in production and some real bad apples. I'd hold out for something better

HometownHero
11-09-2012, 08:45 PM
I just feel like with that trade, you are trading 2 underachievers with good attitudes for 2 underachievers with bad attitudes. You are getting no increase in production and some real bad apples. I'd hold out for something better

I will take the risk of drama for the upside both of these guys have. Both had better runs at a younger age outside the difficult AL East both having put up 800+ OPS years before the age of 25. Toronto saves money to fill other needs and gets less potential headaches but take back players with less upside so its a good trade for both on paper.

HometownHero
11-09-2012, 08:51 PM
Problem with Rasmus is if you trade for him, you also trade for Daddy Dearest. And Colby listens to *nobody* about anything but Daddy Dearest.

Until Colby develops a backbone and tells dad to MYOB, I'd rather not see him play for the Reds.

I think that played out as a bigger deal than it was because of LaRussa and then how everything Cards related gets blown out of proportion in that city. But even if he listen's to his dad and nobody else and it works then let him work with his dad. If he meets his potential hits around .280 with 30+ HR and 100 RBI and a good OBP would anyone honestly care who he works with?

MoneyInTheBank
11-09-2012, 09:06 PM
I will take the risk of drama for the upside both of these guys have. Both had better runs at a younger age outside the difficult AL East both having put up 800+ OPS years before the age of 25. Toronto saves money to fill other needs and gets less potential headaches but take back players with less upside so its a good trade for both on paper.

It doesn't bother you that Escobar likes to put derogatory remarks on his eyeblack or that Atlanta dumped him after those .800 OPS seasons because of attitude and effort issues?

It doesn't bother you that Colby Rasmus' dad is a micromanager who is openly critical of coaching in the media? Or that he has a career AVG of .243?

Personally, I want nothing to do with either of them

HometownHero
11-09-2012, 09:21 PM
It doesn't bother you that Escobar likes to put derogatory remarks on his eyeblack or that Atlanta dumped him after those .800 OPS seasons because of attitude and effort issues?

It doesn't bother you that Colby Rasmus' dad is a micromanager who is openly critical of coaching in the media? Or that he has a career AVG of .243?

Personally, I want nothing to do with either of them

Nope, everyone makes mistakes.

Rasmus' .243 is better than .241 that Drew gives us and he's also 2 years younger. OPS+ Wise its 86 for Drew and 98 for Rasmus and then when you put Rasmus in a place like our park its even more exciting with his .914 OPS here. Escobar is a 99 OPS+ while Zack is a 82 in his career and had from more OBP potential something we need all while keeping up good defense.

rgslone
11-09-2012, 09:38 PM
I just feel like with that trade, you are trading 2 underachievers with good attitudes for 2 underachievers with bad attitudes. You are getting no increase in production and some real bad apples. I'd hold out for something better

Money....surely you're not labeling Cozart as an underachiever after his Rookie year are you? I think we're all hoping for, and maybe even expecting, some offensive improvement from Cozart. But, personally, I was pretty pleased with his 1st year. Very good sure-handed fielder, some power and speed. Let's not forget what the Reds had to live with at SS between Larkin and Cozart.

foxfire123
11-09-2012, 09:54 PM
But seriously HH, do you think an overall gain of only .02 in average and a 12 gain in OPS is worth the attitude and outside problems that come with Rasmus?

Really, there has to be better options than him out there.

MoneyInTheBank
11-09-2012, 10:02 PM
Nope, everyone makes mistakes.

Rasmus' .243 is better than .241 that Drew gives us and he's also 2 years younger. OPS+ Wise its 86 for Drew and 98 for Rasmus and then when you put Rasmus in a place like our park its even more exciting with his .914 OPS here. Escobar is a 99 OPS+ while Zack is a 82 in his career and had from more OBP potential something we need all while keeping up good defense.

Rasmus' OPS+ stats (and most of his other stats for that matter) are being carried by his 2010 season. Here are his career OPS+ numbers: 89, 132, 88, 85. That 132 screams outlier to me. For Stubbs: 99, 105, 86, 61. That 61 looks to be an outlier as well. I see it as a lateral move until you consider Rasmus' meddling dad and questionable attitude and work ethic. I agree that talent wise, no question, Rasmus takes it. There is no doubt I want an upgrade over Stubbs but Rasmus is not that guy for me

For me, Escobar is beyond "everyone makes mistakes". He's 30 years old and as of last season he used both a gay slur and a penis joke on his eye black. There has been numerous reports of a terrible attitude and work ethic. That is a pattern of behavior. I'm definitely not opposed to trading Cozart at all, but again, those 2 just do nothing for me.

MoneyInTheBank
11-09-2012, 10:16 PM
Money....surely you're not labeling Cozart as an underachiever after his Rookie year are you? I think we're all hoping for, and maybe even expecting, some offensive improvement from Cozart. But, personally, I was pretty pleased with his 1st year. Very good sure-handed fielder, some power and speed. Let's not forget what the Reds had to live with at SS between Larkin and Cozart.

He played extremely well in his cup of coffee in 2011 and took a step back in 2012. That is what I meant by "underachieving". I'm not saying he's a bust or will never amount to anything, but he is 27 years old with a highly regarded option sitting behind him. A decision has to be made on him soon.

HometownHero
11-10-2012, 05:38 AM
But seriously HH, do you think an overall gain of only .02 in average and a 12 gain in OPS is worth the attitude and outside problems that come with Rasmus?

Really, there has to be better options than him out there.

How much more of a gain would it be coming to GABP when he has a .914? When you factor in what kind of damage he could do with our RF its very appealing.

HometownHero
11-10-2012, 06:03 AM
Rasmus' OPS+ stats (and most of his other stats for that matter) are being carried by his 2010 season. Here are his career OPS+ numbers: 89, 132, 88, 85. That 132 screams outlier to me. For Stubbs: 99, 105, 86, 61. That 61 looks to be an outlier as well. I see it as a lateral move until you consider Rasmus' meddling dad and questionable attitude and work ethic. I agree that talent wise, no question, Rasmus takes it. There is no doubt I want an upgrade over Stubbs but Rasmus is not that guy for me

For me, Escobar is beyond "everyone makes mistakes". He's 30 years old and as of last season he used both a gay slur and a penis joke on his eye black. There has been numerous reports of a terrible attitude and work ethic. That is a pattern of behavior. I'm definitely not opposed to trading Cozart at all, but again, those 2 just do nothing for me.


Rasmus had a .259 BABIP this year and hit 23 HR and drove in 75 and the year before it was .267, we are talking about one of the more unlucky players in MLB. Stubbs in his down years the last 2 has a .290 and .343 BABIP.

Drew is a .241 hitter with a .323 career BABIP to put it into perceptive Pujols has a .309 BABIP as a .325 hitter. We are talking about a player 2 years younger with more upside and still better than Drew with him having poor luck vs Drew having good luck.

Escobar just turned 30 and he made a mistake, people do dumb things all the time but before he played in the difficult AL East he was a stud with high OBP something we need bad. And much like Rasmus he didn't have much luck with a .273 BABIP after posting .290/.369/.413/.782 in 2011 when the balls fell in. Cozart had a BABIP of .282 or 9 points higher and and still ended up hitting 7 points worse.

Both these guys also didn't play in the Al East with 3 of the AL's top 6 ERA in his division rather than just the Cards in top 6 here in at 6th and we only played them 15 times vs 18 games each with the teams in the AL East. Our Division also featured 3 or the 4 worst NL team ERA while the worst AL East pitching staff was just Boston.

MoneyInTheBank
11-10-2012, 08:06 AM
Rasmus had a .259 BABIP this year and hit 23 HR and drove in 75 and the year before it was .267, we are talking about one of the more unlucky players in MLB. Stubbs in his down years the last 2 has a .290 and .343 BABIP.

Drew is a .241 hitter with a .323 career BABIP to put it into perceptive Pujols has a .309 BABIP as a .325 hitter. We are talking about a player 2 years younger with more upside and still better than Drew with him having poor luck vs Drew having good luck.

Escobar just turned 30 and he made a mistake, people do dumb things all the time but before he played in the difficult AL East he was a stud with high OBP something we need bad. And much like Rasmus he didn't have much luck with a .273 BABIP after posting .290/.369/.413/.782 in 2011 when the balls fell in. Cozart had a BABIP of .282 or 9 points higher and and still ended up hitting 7 points worse.

Both these guys also didn't play in the Al East with 3 of the AL's top 6 ERA in his division rather than just the Cards in top 6 here in at 6th and we only played them 15 times vs 18 games each with the teams in the AL East. Our Division also featured 3 or the 4 worst NL team ERA while the worst AL East pitching staff was just Boston.

You are using the BABIP stat incorrectly. It is not a "one size fits all" statistic. I'm not going to go into it here for the sake of staying on topic. If you PM me, I'd be glad to give a full explanation.

These guys were acquired by a team that took Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion from the MLB scrap heap and all of a sudden were 2 of the most fear hitters in the league. Same team, same AL East. Also, Rasmus is a huge downgrade from Stubbs defensively and on the basepaths.

But again, these guys have been headaches everywhere they've been. Escobar did not make one bad decision. He has made a career out of making bad decisions. Right now, this Reds team is about as drama-free as it gets. Why add bad apples to this team? Let's throw all the stats out of the window. These guys are trouble. Always have been. This Reds team has a good thing going from a chemistry standpoint, I don't see messing that up for a couple of malcontents

rgslone
11-10-2012, 11:55 AM
He played extremely well in his cup of coffee in 2011 and took a step back in 2012. That is what I meant by "underachieving". I'm not saying he's a bust or will never amount to anything, but he is 27 years old with a highly regarded option sitting behind him. A decision has to be made on him soon.

I think I mostly agree with you. Gregorious is just too promising at this point to declare Cozart the SS of the future. On the other hand, if Gregorius never panned out I would still be happy with Cozart as the SS going forward. So, maybe we differ a little in how much we like Cozart. But, I agree that a decision needs to be made in regard to the SS of the future - I just think that it's too early to make that decision now. I don't think the Reds need to try to rush Gregorius, especially since he's progressing so well. Let's at least give Gregorius another season (or at least half a season) in AAA, and then reassess. I feel good going into next season with Cozart, and I don't want to gamble with that position at this point. I do, however, disagree with those who want to hold on to every potential player and "platooon" them - both Cozart and Gregorius have too much trade value to waste like that.

GotHeeeeem
11-10-2012, 12:57 PM
This is a stat I believe I heard so dont shoot me if it isnt true but has Didi not had an OPS over .700 at any point in his minor league career?

I've seen him play quite a lot in the minors and wasn't impressed either. If he is hyped around the league to be at Cozart's level I would move him while he still has that value.

MoneyInTheBank
11-10-2012, 01:00 PM
I think I mostly agree with you. Gregorious is just too promising at this point to declare Cozart the SS of the future. On the other hand, if Gregorius never panned out I would still be happy with Cozart as the SS going forward. So, maybe we differ a little in how much we like Cozart. But, I agree that a decision needs to be made in regard to the SS of the future - I just think that it's too early to make that decision now. I don't think the Reds need to try to rush Gregorius, especially since he's progressing so well. Let's at least give Gregorius another season (or at least half a season) in AAA, and then reassess. I feel good going into next season with Cozart, and I don't want to gamble with that position at this point. I do, however, disagree with those who want to hold on to every potential player and "platooon" them - both Cozart and Gregorius have too much trade value to waste like that.

I definitely don't dislike Cozart. Quite the opposite actually. I like his glove and pop in his bat. I wish Dusty wouldn't have miscast him in the leadoff spot for so long and let him struggle. I thought it was nice having him hitting in front of Votto and letting him gain confidence by seeing a lot of fastballs and he did well in that role. Instead he got to hit leadoff in front of, IMO, the worst hitter in baseball last season. I don't think they should trade Cozart at all costs by any means and you may not get value for him because you would not be trading him at peak value (this again shows my poor choice of words when I said "underachiever"). If you don't get value for him, keep him.

I think where we may differ is that I feel like the presence of DiDi should make them feel comfortable trading Cozart (in the right deal of course) rather than the lack of polish on DiDi making them wary of trading Cozart.

MoneyInTheBank
11-10-2012, 01:08 PM
This is a stat I believe I heard so dont shoot me if it isnt true but has Didi not had an OPS over .700 at any point in his minor league career?

I've seen him play quite a lot in the minors and wasn't impressed either. If he is hyped around the league to be at Cozart's level I would move him while he still has that value.

In his 4 minor league seasons (I'm not counting his 30+ games in rookie league) his lowest OPS has been .699. Now, his highest has been .753 so maybe you heard .800?

If you would like to know more about OPS, PM me and I'd be glad to explain it

rgslone
11-10-2012, 03:47 PM
I definitely don't dislike Cozart. Quite the opposite actually. I like his glove and pop in his bat. I wish Dusty wouldn't have miscast him in the leadoff spot for so long and let him struggle. I thought it was nice having him hitting in front of Votto and letting him gain confidence by seeing a lot of fastballs and he did well in that role. Instead he got to hit leadoff in front of, IMO, the worst hitter in baseball last season. I don't think they should trade Cozart at all costs by any means and you may not get value for him because you would not be trading him at peak value (this again shows my poor choice of words when I said "underachiever"). If you don't get value for him, keep him.

I think where we may differ is that I feel like the presence of DiDi should make them feel comfortable trading Cozart (in the right deal of course) rather than the lack of polish on DiDi making them wary of trading Cozart.

Ok, I understand where you're coming from better now. But we do differ on whether the Reds should feel comfortable at this point trading Cozart due to the prescence of Gregorious. I'm just not there yet, and I'm a pretty big believer in Gregorious' potential.

HometownHero
11-10-2012, 05:41 PM
You are using the BABIP stat incorrectly. It is not a "one size fits all" statistic. I'm not going to go into it here for the sake of staying on topic. If you PM me, I'd be glad to give a full explanation.

These guys were acquired by a team that took Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion from the MLB scrap heap and all of a sudden were 2 of the most fear hitters in the league. Same team, same AL East. Also, Rasmus is a huge downgrade from Stubbs defensively and on the basepaths.

But again, these guys have been headaches everywhere they've been. Escobar did not make one bad decision. He has made a career out of making bad decisions. Right now, this Reds team is about as drama-free as it gets. Why add bad apples to this team? Let's throw all the stats out of the window. These guys are trouble. Always have been. This Reds team has a good thing going from a chemistry standpoint, I don't see messing that up for a couple of malcontents

When you have BABIP that low you are having terrible luck any way you want to look at it. Bautista is a .264 hitter with the Jays he just hits HR after changing his swing and Encarnacion done nothing special there until this one season and they got Rasmus to hit HR as well.

We don't have the money to get drama free talent unless we draft it or the come in at rock bottom like Ludwick. For the Reds to win a WS they need to hit on high talented players who have other issues. That's why we need to strike on players like Melky, Escobar and Rasmus.

We got an amazing year out of out pitching and a massive run from Ludwick even if we bring the same team back we're not likely to get the same results, so if we sit on our hands we will be spending next October watching the Cards try for another run since we are losing some easy wins losing Houston and picking up more games with St Louis.

Winning creates chemistry and kills drama, even if we keep the same team and lose you will hear about all the issues.

MoneyInTheBank
11-10-2012, 06:42 PM
When you have BABIP that low you are having terrible luck any way you want to look at it. Bautista is a .264 hitter with the Jays he just hits HR after changing his swing and Encarnacion done nothing special there until this one season and they got Rasmus to hit HR as well.

We don't have the money to get drama free talent unless we draft it or the come in at rock bottom like Ludwick. For the Reds to win a WS they need to hit on high talented players who have other issues. That's why we need to strike on players like Melky, Escobar and Rasmus.

We got an amazing year out of out pitching and a massive run from Ludwick even if we bring the same team back we're not likely to get the same results, so if we sit on our hands we will be spending next October watching the Cards try for another run since we are losing some easy wins losing Houston and picking up more games with St Louis.

Winning creates chemistry and kills drama, even if we keep the same team and lose you will hear about all the issues.

Your comment about BABIP is just simply untrue. Rasmus has an infield flyball rate of 15%. In other words, he pops out to the infield 15% of the time. Those are automatic outs. There is a nearly 0% chance of getting on base hitting an infield fly ball. Stubbs has an infield flyball rate of 7.5%. There is your .75 difference in BABIP between the 2 of them. Stubbs' speed also gives him a higher rate of infield hits than the average player, causing a higher BABIP.

My point on Encarnacion and Bautista is they have none of these same problems in the big, bad, AL East.

I never once said "keep the same team". Not once. And I just wholeheartedly disagree that it's impossible to pick up drama free talent on this team.

HometownHero
11-10-2012, 07:34 PM
Your comment about BABIP is just simply untrue. Rasmus has an infield flyball rate of 15%. In other words, he pops out to the infield 15% of the time. Those are automatic outs. There is a nearly 0% chance of getting on base hitting an infield fly ball. Stubbs has an infield flyball rate of 7.5%. There is your .75 difference in BABIP between the 2 of them. Stubbs' speed also gives him a higher rate of infield hits than the average player, causing a higher BABIP.

My point on Encarnacion and Bautista is they have none of these same problems in the big, bad, AL East.

I never once said "keep the same team". Not once. And I just wholeheartedly disagree that it's impossible to pick up drama free talent on this team.


Rasmus hits the ball way harder than Drew. Sure he pops up more than league average he but he also hits rockets that get caught all the time, He's been very unlucky.

Bautista totally changed his swing and got power so to use him in this is comical at best since he reinvented himself completely and is just hitting .264 since adding the HR. Encarnacion had this one good year this season and the rest of his time he's been just a guy.

We don't have the money to add drama free talent we have to find deals on damaged goods, gimmick contracts like Madson's, get lucky and draft it or trade the farm to get a cost controlled player. Locking up our star players is going to kill or payroll so we are going to be forced to take risks to win, we aren't going to keep pitching like we did this year especially in this park.

MoneyInTheBank
11-10-2012, 08:35 PM
Rasmus hits the ball way harder than Drew. Sure he pops up more than league average he but he also hits rockets that get caught all the time, He's been very unlucky.

Bautista totally changed his swing and got power so to use him in this is comical at best since he reinvented himself completely and is just hitting .264 since adding the HR. Encarnacion had this one good year this season and the rest of his time he's been just a guy.

We don't have the money to add drama free talent we have to find deals on damaged goods, gimmick contracts like Madson's, get lucky and draft it or trade the farm to get a cost controlled player. Locking up our star players is going to kill or payroll so we are going to be forced to take risks to win, we aren't going to keep pitching like we did this year especially in this park.

If this discussion has deteriorated to the point where we are talking about luck of a player based on "the eye test" then I don't have any interest in continuing it.

Again, by using Encarnacion and Bautista, I'm saying, they were just guys, they came to the AL East (which is so tough that Rasmus hasn't hit as well) and even if for one year they have thrived. I could go on and on with guys who play in the AL East and hit well. Rasmus hasn't done it. It's not an excuse.

As far as adding players. There are calculated risks and there's just being reckless. To me, this is being reckless. I personally don't see them as big enough upgrades (I know we have a difference of opinion on this) to put up with the headaches. It's taking a shot in the dark. Both of these guys have been on good teams and had bad attitudes on those teams as well. This team can't sit stagnant but I think they need to make smarter decisions than that.

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 04:06 AM
As far as adding players. There are calculated risks and there's just being reckless. To me, this is being reckless. .

LOL, Reckless? These guys have just wrote something dumb on his eye black in Spanish and the other is accused by LaRussa who was a control freak of listing to his dad. I bet we have players on the team now that have done far worse things in their lives than that it just didn't make the media.

Go to MLB to the video and type in Rasmus and defense and see how hits he lost to highlight plays. He one bad run this year after he got hurt where he went into a long slump but he hit the ball hard as hell for the better part of the year.

He hit just .223 and still hit 23 HR and drove in 75 runs and scored the same in one of the best divisions in baseball, just think of the damage the kid would do with our RF HR porch that has seen him already hit 5 HR in 80 AB and the park has handed out 11 XBH in his 22 hits.

He hit .141 vs the O's in 18 games and .113 in 17 games vs New York last year the two playoff teams from the AL East vs NL teams last year he hit .309/.365/.632/.997 in 17 games vs all 5 AL East teams plus the Brewers.

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 09:26 AM
LOL, Reckless? These guys have just wrote something dumb on his eye black in Spanish and the other is accused by LaRussa who was a control freak of listing to his dad. I bet we have players on the team now that have done far worse things in their lives than that it just didn't make the media.

Go to MLB to the video and type in Rasmus and defense and see how hits he lost to highlight plays. He one bad run this year after he got hurt where he went into a long slump but he hit the ball hard as hell for the better part of the year.

He hit just .223 and still hit 23 HR and drove in 75 runs and scored the same in one of the best divisions in baseball, just think of the damage the kid would do with our RF HR porch that has seen him already hit 5 HR in 80 AB and the park has handed out 11 XBH in his 22 hits.

He hit .141 vs the O's in 18 games and .113 in 17 games vs New York last year the two playoff teams from the AL East vs NL teams last year he hit .309/.365/.632/.997 in 17 games vs all 5 AL East teams plus the Brewers.

Yes, reckless, as in making a trade just to make a trade. Again, Escobar's eye black was not an isolated incident and by the way, that's not the first offensive comment he's made on his eye black. He is repeatedly called out for his lack of hustle and still uses the language barrier as a crutch 8 years into his career. The Braves traded him at the age of 27 after posting 3 years of over .760 OPS for ALEX GONZALEZ and even before the "eye black" incident, Toronto was shopping him at the deadline. Guys who are that talented don't just get passed around for no reason. As the saying goes "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." To me, acquiring Yunel Escobar and expecting him to hustle and stay out of trouble would fit that mold.

Rasmus' dad being a pain was not just an accusation by Tony LaRussa. He has done multiple interviews with the media, one of which was suggesting a trade from the Cardinals. Colby said himself he needs to talk to his dad less. As far as the production goes, his walk rates are down from his Cardinal days, strikeout rate up, pops out to the infield in 15% of his balls he puts into play, his defense has deteriorated, doesn't get on base, doesn't steal bases.

The stats you are giving on Rasmus at GABP are driven by his numbers 4 years ago. Over the last 3 years, he's been 11-47 at GABP.

Again, even if these guys are mild upgrades over what we've got, I don't see that difference being big enough to put up with the headaches.

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 06:49 PM
Escobar not only got traded for Gonzalez he also got traded for SS Tyler Pastornicky and LHP Tim Collins. Pastornicky is a player the D-Backs reportedly like for Upton and Collins since traded to KC in one of the best young LHP in the majors with a .216 BAA in 140 games and who just turned 23 in late August. So to act he was so bad the Braves gave him away for nothing is wrong,

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 07:25 PM
Escobar not only got traded for Gonzalez he also got traded for SS Tyler Pastornicky and LHP Tim Collins. Pastornicky is a player the D-Backs reportedly like for Upton and Collins since traded to KC in one of the best young LHP in the majors with a .216 BAA in 140 games and who just turned 23 in late August. So to act he was so bad the Braves gave him away for nothing is wrong,

No, that's not at all what I was implying. The point is, they were in first place and obviously with eyes on a pennant and they dump their young talented SS of the present and future for a downgrade at SS and a couple of top 20 prospects. Unless there are deeper issues, that's not a move a team makes in a pennant race.

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 07:46 PM
No, that's not at all what I was implying. The point is, they were in first place and obviously with eyes on a pennant and they dump their young talented SS of the present and future for a downgrade at SS and a couple of top 20 prospects. Unless there are deeper issues, that's not a move a team makes in a pennant race.

They did dump anything. They added a SS with .793 OPS at the time of the trade despite a very low OBP and got 2 solid prospects with him, it was a no brainier for a team looking to win and Toronto paid a ton to get Escobar.

Gonzalez had 43 XBH out of his 85 hits and teams wanted to add him bad that year, the Cardinals thought they had a deal with the Jays for Brendan Ryan until the Braves came in a gave up Escobar who Toronto wanted bad at the time and sweeten the pot to get it done.

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 08:18 PM
They did dump anything. They added a SS with .793 OPS at the time of the trade despite a very low OBP and got 2 solid prospects with him, it was a no brainier for a team looking to win and Toronto paid a ton to get Escobar.

Gonzalez had 43 XBH out of his 85 hits and teams wanted to add him bad that year, the Cardinals thought they had a deal with the Jays for Brendan Ryan until the Braves came in a gave up Escobar who Toronto wanted bad at the time and sweeten the pot to get it done.

If he's as great as you say he is, you don't trade him at all

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 08:31 PM
If he's as great as you say he is, you don't trade him at all

Do you like Brandon Phillips? I bet you do and he's been traded twice.

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 08:57 PM
Do you like Brandon Phillips? I bet you do and he's been traded twice.

The point being? He was traded once when he was a 21 year old AA player and traded again after struggling in the majors and Cleveland became frustrated with his lack of progress. Much different than trading a young talented SS who has had success at the MLB level.

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 09:07 PM
The point being? He was traded once when he was a 21 year old AA player and traded again after struggling in the majors and Cleveland became frustrated with his lack of progress. Much different than trading a young talented SS who has had success at the MLB level.

The point is tons of talented players get traded each year, Mat Latos was traded it happens and its no big deal. The Braves got what they saw as a short term power upgrade at SS and got his replacement in another SS prospect and a LHP prospect. You act like the Braves were fed up and just gave him way when its not the case since they get 3 MLB players in return.

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 09:25 PM
The point is tons of talented players get traded each year, Mat Latos was traded it happens and its no big deal. The Braves got what they saw as a short term power upgrade at SS and got his replacement in another SS prospect and a LHP prospect. You act like the Braves were fed up and just gave him way when its not the case since they get 3 MLB players in return.

You are correct. Rebuilding teams trade talented players for prospects. Teams typically don't trade talented major league players in pennant races unless there are other problems. They plugged Gonzalez into the 7th spot in the order. I don't really buy the "short term power upgrade", Escobar is the better player, period.

I will again say they got 2 top 20 prospects along with it. I never said they gave him away. But again, this is not a move a team in a pennant race makes.

HometownHero
11-11-2012, 09:44 PM
You are correct. Rebuilding teams trade talented players for prospects. Teams typically don't trade talented major league players in pennant races unless there are other problems. They plugged Gonzalez into the 7th spot in the order. I don't really buy the "short term power upgrade", Escobar is the better player, period.

I will again say they got 2 top 20 prospects along with it. I never said they gave him away. But again, this is not a move a team in a pennant race makes.

If Escobar was a problem then the Jays wouldn't have gave up 3 MLB talents for him. They added a OPS of .793 that was all power the the 7 hole and you're telling me that's not an upgrade?

They traded a guy who was having a down year and was about to get a big bump in arbitration for a guy who was putting up massive power numbers for a SS and had a cheaper deal than what Escobar was going to get in 2011 and going forward and got his potential replacement and another prospect.

So they got a player with 110 OPS at the time owned 2.5M in 2011 with prospects and gave up a played having a down year with a 71 OPS+ and ended up getting 2.9M for 2011.

That part didn't end up working out because Escobar finish 2010 at 89 and 2011 at 112 and Gonzalez posted a 83 and then 74 with the Braves and they did end up moving Collins to KC with others for Ankiel and Farnsworth but still have Pastornicky to keep or move to help their team now.

MoneyInTheBank
11-11-2012, 09:55 PM
If Escobar was a problem then the Jays wouldn't have gave up 3 MLB talents for him. They added a OPS of .793 that was all power the the 7 hole and you're telling me that's not an upgrade?

They traded a guy who was having a down year and was about to get a big bump in arbitration for a guy who was putting up massive power numbers for a SS and had a cheaper deal than what Escobar was going to get in 2011 and going forward and got his potential replacement and another prospect.

So they got a player with 110 OPS at the time owned 2.5M in 2011 with prospects and gave up a played having a down year with a 71 OPS+ and ended up getting 2.9M for 2011.

That part didn't end up working out because Escobar finish 2010 at 89 and 2011 at 112 and Gonzalez posted a 83 and then 74 with the Braves and they did end up moving Collins to KC with others for Ankiel and Farnsworth but still have Pastornicky to keep or move to help their team now.

This debate is so far gone at this point, I'll just say you're right so I can bow out of it.

Mutaman
11-12-2012, 06:54 AM
He played extremely well in his cup of coffee in 2011 and took a step back in 2012. That is what I meant by "underachieving".

Took a step back? What team were you watching? He was more than solid all year, all around, in his first year, despite batting out of position.

MoneyInTheBank
11-12-2012, 07:19 AM
Took a step back? What team were you watching? He was more than solid all year, all around, in his first year, despite batting out of position.

Obviously a different one. The team I watched had a SS who had the 7th worst OBP in all of baseball. Not amongst SS but amongst all qualified players. After stealing 30 bases in AAA in 2010, he swiped 4 this season. He was very good with the glove, nothing disappointing there, actually he was very impressive. However, by no means would I way he was solid all around. After what he showed in 2011, that was a little disappointing for me.

WDE
11-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Only if Rasmus get his haircut... Not a good look :laugh:

Dear lord. Go back to the buzz buddy. I think I read something that he hates it there in Toronto. I would not mind taking him. He has a lot of potential and power. Plus, I love watching his swing. It's so smooth and awesome.

HometownHero
11-13-2012, 07:26 PM
Looks like Yunel Escobar may be going to Miami in a massive blockbuster that's going down right now.