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Benihana
11-12-2012, 06:10 PM
In a word, who is the one player you'd like to see the Reds acquire this offseason?

Please try to keep it realistic. I'll start:

J.UPTON

RedsManRick
11-12-2012, 06:14 PM
Given what I assume their costs to be, Denard Span (over Upton or Ellsbury).

Cedric
11-12-2012, 06:21 PM
D. Fowler

mattfeet
11-12-2012, 06:22 PM
M. Bourn

Wonderful Monds
11-12-2012, 06:31 PM
Ben Zobrist

corkedbat
11-12-2012, 06:32 PM
Choo (Fowler and Ellsbury tied for runner up)

Brutus
11-12-2012, 07:35 PM
Beni you really had me fooled on your choice. I didn't suspect you would pick Upton ;)

schroomytunes
11-12-2012, 07:41 PM
Josh Willingham (Shane Victorino close 2nd)

Strikes Out Looking
11-12-2012, 07:57 PM
Verlander, as realistic as many names listed so far.

corkedbat
11-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Josh Willingham (Shane Victorino close 2nd)

Somehow forgot about Josh. I'd like to change my vote - Josh Willingham

Gizmo
11-12-2012, 08:03 PM
Fowler may be the most realistic.

mth123
11-12-2012, 08:38 PM
Being realistic.

David Dejesus.

marcshoe
11-12-2012, 08:44 PM
The only player I can think of with one name is Ichiro, and he's past his sell-by date.

As far as players with two names go, I'm not sure. I'd probably go with Fowler, but I'm open.

Tom Servo
11-12-2012, 08:48 PM
G. Sizemore

crazybob60
11-12-2012, 08:52 PM
M. Bourn

mth123
11-12-2012, 08:56 PM
Why do so many think that Fowler is available?

kaldaniels
11-12-2012, 09:10 PM
Why do so many think that Fowler is available?

I ask the same about most of these guys.

Vottomatic
11-12-2012, 10:10 PM
Fowler.

26 years old.
Switch Hitter.
OBP in the .370+ range.

Rockies are a mess, and should be a willing trade partner.

Will M
11-12-2012, 10:25 PM
Why do so many think that Fowler is available?

there seems to be a perception (at least among fantasy baseball players) that the Rockies manager doesn't like Fowler ( and certain other players ) and seems to sit him more than most teams sit their starters.

M2
11-12-2012, 10:56 PM
Why do so many think that Fowler is available?

Because the Rockies organization has just about no pitchers. The majors are empty, and their minors don't feature many compelling arms and lack depth. Colorado is pretty much the last choice for free agent pitchers. So, if they don't have enough pitching in-house, they have to deal for it.

Oh, and to answer the main question of the thread:

Dexter Fowler

Jefferson24
11-13-2012, 12:16 AM
given the payroll situation I say, trade for Chris Denorfia.

corkedbat
11-13-2012, 12:18 AM
If Jocketty were to re-sign Ludwick or dealt for a bat like Choo or Willingham for LF and then either Fowler or Span, might the Reds consider moving Billy back to SS (especially if Cozart or Didi are a part of a deal)?

Jefferson24
11-13-2012, 12:20 AM
If Jocketty were to re-sign Ludwick or dealt for a bat like Choo or Willingham for LF and then either Fowler or Span, might the Reds consider moving Billy back to SS (especially if Cozart or Didi are a part of a deal)?

I didn't think his defense was all that great, OF might be a better long term option.

corkedbat
11-13-2012, 12:26 AM
If Jocketty were to re-sign Ludwick or dealt for a bat like Choo or Willingham for LF and then either Fowler or Span for CF, might the Reds consider moving Billy back to SS (especially if Cozart or Didi are a part of a deal)?

Vottomatic
11-13-2012, 06:56 AM
If Jocketty were to re-sign Ludwick or dealt for a bat like Choo or Willingham for LF and then either Fowler or Span for CF, might the Reds consider moving Billy back to SS (especially if Cozart or Didi are a part of a deal)?

Your post is like deja vu all over again. :D

I think management partially wants to move Hamilton to CF to reduce the wear and tear on his body that a SS takes, to maintain his basestealing speed. And also because defensively he's not that good of a SS, and they want to take advantage of his speed and athleticism in CF. And finally, the Reds have a glaring hole in CF since they are disgruntled with Stubbs offense.

_Sir_Charles_
11-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Choo

mdccclxix
11-13-2012, 09:29 AM
Victorino 2 years 14 million, 3rd year option. Mentors Billy. You can keep your prospects. His BABIP was low last year, steals just as many bags as Stubbs. Best power/defense /speed combo on the market and could be had for less than I'm stating here. Doesn't hardly strike out. A true upgrade in CF. Allows you to keep Leake in the pen for the Aroldis project. Stubbs could even stick around to hit vs LHP.

CySeymour
11-13-2012, 09:46 AM
there seems to be a perception (at least among fantasy baseball players) that the Rockies manager doesn't like Fowler ( and certain other players ) and seems to sit him more than most teams sit their starters.

The Rockies just hired a new manager, so what Jim Tracy thought isn't really going to matter.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Victorino 2 years 14 million, 3rd year option. Mentors Billy. You can keep your prospects. His BABIP was low last year, steals just as many bags as Stubbs. Best power/defense /speed combo on the market and could be had for less than I'm stating here. Doesn't hardly strike out. A true upgrade in CF. Allows you to keep Leake in the pen for the Aroldis project. Stubbs could even stick around to hit vs LHP.

You wouldn't keep Stubbs around to hit lefty pitching, because that's what Victorino does.

Victorino does not hit righty pitching particularly well, did poorly against them in 2012. He does most of his damage against lefties.

Lifetime Victorino has a .330 OBP and a .732 OPS against righties.
Lifetime Victorino has a .373 OBP and a .881 OPS against lefties.

In 2012, Victorino had a .296 OPS and a .629 OPS against righty pitching (472 PAs).
In 2012, Victorino had a .388 OBP and a .906 OPS against lefty pitching.

I think Victorino has a good chance to join the Reds. He would be viewed as the stopgap to Hamilton. But he's a high risk signing because if he OPSs .629 against righty pitching again, he won't help the offense much at all.

Personally, he would not be my choice.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Choo

I agree.

My one name is not a CFer. The Reds are not going to drop meaningful dollars on a CFer. Billy Hamilton is their CFer soon. Whomever they acquire for CF, if anyone, will be a short term deal. I do not believe the rumors about Michael Bourn.

My one name is Choo to replace Ludwick in LF. He would automatically solve the righty/lefty imbalance problem, the OBP problem.

With Frazier, Phillips, and Cozart I think the Reds will have enough righty power. Choo adds much more than a Ludwick type for LF.

With Choo, the Reds could give CF to a journeyman, or even keep Stubbs/Heisey for a short time until Billy is ready.

Since Billy's wheels are his game, the Reds aren't going to wait very long to bring him up. He won't get faster as years go forward.

mdccclxix
11-13-2012, 10:38 AM
You wouldn't keep Stubbs around to hit lefty pitching, because that's what Victorino does.

Victorino does not hit righty pitching particularly well, did poorly against them in 2012. He does most of his damage against lefties.

Lifetime Victorino has a .330 OBP and a .732 OPS against righties.
Lifetime Victorino has a .373 OBP and a .881 OPS against lefties.

In 2012, Victorino had a .296 OPS and a .629 OPS against righty pitching (472 PAs).
In 2012, Victorino had a .388 OBP and a .906 OPS against lefty pitching.

I think Victorino has a good chance to join the Reds. He would be viewed as the stopgap to Hamilton. But he's a high risk signing because if he OPSs .629 against righty pitching again, he won't help the offense much at all.

Personally, he would not be my choice.

Good points. I didn't bother to look at the splits. The only rebuttal would be that his BABIP vs RHP in 2010 and 2012 was in the mid-200's, like .250. So, you might expect something closer to the career norms of .730 OPS vs RHP.

The other factor I propose is the accumulation of talent instead of the shuffling of talent going on with the Upton trade proposals, Span, Choo, etc. A short term FA like Victorino adds talent without losing prospects. Not knowing what a Fowler or Span would cost, and knowing their question marks, makes a FA CF more attractive than spending a lot in player resources this year. Upton is a guy I can't figure out. I'm gun shy after I spent Summer of 2011 begging for Jiminez. A true buy low (like Jim Edmonds was to Walt 10 years ago) would be great, but nothing like the Latos give would be worry free.

I really think CF is a desperate area, as others have said recently on here. So, I've chosen to address it before LF, where my choice would also lean FA, Ludwick. Signing a FA to fix CF adds talent and upgrades the roster without thinning out the system again. Letting Hamilton, Cingrani, Corcino and some others develop one more year is probably a good thing.

Degenerate39
11-13-2012, 10:40 AM
Choo

mdccclxix
11-13-2012, 10:48 AM
The Reds are talented, but imagine if they get more talented. They could win 100 games if Chapman sticks in the rotation. If you flip CF from being the worst offensive position in the league to being just average, that's significant. Frazier in LF with Victorino helping when Stubbs gets starts. Upgrading or keeping level 3b from an offensive standpoint shouldn't be too hard. Henry Rodriguez will be an option, and perhaps a bench player is out there.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 10:50 AM
I really think CF is a desperate area, as others have said recently on here. So, I've chosen to address it before LF, where my choice would also lean FA, Ludwick. Signing a FA to fix CF adds talent and upgrades the roster without thinning out the system again. Letting Hamilton, Cingrani, Corcino and some others develop one more year is probably a good thing.

Only question is why the Reds should spend on CF with Hamilton in the wings.

Nobody wants to improve CF more than me, but I can't see a big deal for a Fowler or Span, or a major FA signing, when the CFer of the future is at AAA and destined to be a Red soon.

LF, on the other hand, is empty right now with Ludwick as a FA. I'd think the "bigger" signing should be a LFer, where there is no Billy Hamilton on the horizon.

As for Choo, one problem is he is a FA after next year; and a Boras client. He'd be my choice as a player, but it seems unlikely that the Reds could work this out - don't want to give up the farm for a rental.

_Sir_Charles_
11-13-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm having a hard time believing in any scenario where Frazier isn't playing nearly every game at third base. I fully believe that Rolen will retire. Todd is going to be planted at third and let him sink or swim.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 10:52 AM
I'm having a hard time believing in any scenario where Frazier isn't playing nearly every game at third base. I fully believe that Rolen will retire. Todd is going to be planted at third and let him sink or swim.

I can give you one scenario.

The Reds acquire a third baseman and make Frazier the everyday LFer.

_Sir_Charles_
11-13-2012, 10:55 AM
I can give you one scenario.

The Reds acquire a third baseman and make Frazier the everyday LFer.

My point is I don't see the Reds going after a 3B'man and they/I view Todd as a better infielder than outfielder.

mdccclxix
11-13-2012, 11:03 AM
Only question is why the Reds should spend on CF with Hamilton in the wings.

Nobody wants to improve CF more than me, but I can't see a big deal for a Fowler or Span, or a major FA signing, when the CFer of the future is at AAA and destined to be a Red soon.

LF, on the other hand, is empty right now with Ludwick as a FA. I'd think the "bigger" signing will be a LFer, where there is no Billy Hamilton on the horizon.

As for Choo, one problem is he is a FA after next year; and a Boras client. He'd be my choice as a player, but it seems unlikely that the Reds could work this out - don't want to give up the farm for a rental.

I tend to believe two things the Reds are saying, they want Aroldis to start and they think Billy is very close. So I see what you mean with CF going to Billy very soon. Outside of that box is also the plan to win now, and make sure you're not vulnerable. I think that's where the Reds could decide they want some security. Giving Victorino 2 years certainly writes off Billy for most of the year in Cincinnati, but a year in AAA isn't going to be a bad thing. In 2014, Victorino could be a 4th OF Heisey type role if Billy is ready for CF.

That said, if they want to really platoon CF and do it right, I'm fine with a LF signing. Frazier could play 3b or LF, preferably one or the other. Choo would cost who knows what in prospects and would be gone in 2014, but he'd also likely yield a comp pick as well. I just don't know if the Reds are full and mature enough to feel comfortable dealing their promising talent. Much of that talent is also called "salary relief" in a few years.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 11:22 AM
That said, if they want to really platoon CF and do it right, I'm fine with a LF signing. Frazier could play 3b or LF, preferably one or the other. Choo would cost who knows what in prospects and would be gone in 2014, but he'd also likely yield a comp pick as well. I just don't know if the Reds are full and mature enough to feel comfortable dealing their promising talent. Much of that talent is also called "salary relief" in a few years.

One possibility is to keep Stubbs/Heisey in CF pending Hamilton. But improve LF in a big way this off-season.

The obvious would be Upton for LF, a signed player, an expensive player, but a great fit for the middle of the order.

Bat Stubbs eighth, use Heisey against certain pitching, and move Billy Hamilton through AAA real quickly.

Ultimately this gives the Reds the best ballclub. Two through six in the order could be Phillips, Votto, Upton, Bruce, Frazier.

Then, add Billy Hamilton as lead off, and Cozart and the catcher 7th and 8th in either order.

That lineup, particularly if Mesoraco hits, would be absolutely tremendous. Of course, until Hamilton is ready, the lineup would remain incomplete.

Hamilton, Phillips, Votto, Upton, Bruce, Frazier, Mesoraco, Cozart, pitcher.

Vottomatic
11-13-2012, 11:30 AM
What if Hamilton is never ready next season during 2013?

Alot is being assumed in this thread so far.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 11:31 AM
My point is I don't see the Reds going after a 3B'man and they/I view Todd as a better infielder than outfielder.

I'm not high on Frazier as a defender at third base. I think eventually he would be just fine in LF.

Problem is that good third sackers are hard to find. So it's likely Frazier will be the full time guy at third. Hopefully, he continues to improve there.

But if the Reds could get another good third baseman, I'm ok with Frazier in LF. I think he has more potential to be an average or above LFer defensively than at third.

Kc61
11-13-2012, 11:37 AM
What if Hamilton is never ready next season during 2013?

Alot is being assumed in this thread so far.

Nothing is being assumed.

There is a risk that CF may not be that productive this year. It is a transitional position.

BUT - the identity of the CFer in the near future is known. BHamilton.

Given that Billy is the man for CF soon, do you spend a fortune, or trade many prospects, for a CFer? I'm guessing no.

Sure, there's a risk of an unproductive CF in 2013. But I can't see the justification for a big trade/signing of a Span or Fowler, parting with lots of prospects or money, for a guy who plays Billy Hamilton's position. Makes no sense to me.

LF - there is no incumbent and there is nobody in the wings. The Reds will have to get somebody. Ludwick wants serious money apparently. That position may require a trade of prospects or a substantial contract.

M2
11-13-2012, 12:06 PM
Nothing is being assumed.

There is a risk that CF may not be that productive this year. It is a transitional position.

BUT - the identity of the CFer in the near future is known. BHamilton.

Given that Billy is the man for CF soon, do you spend a fortune, or trade many prospects, for a CFer? I'm guessing no.

Sure, there's a risk of an unproductive CF in 2013. But I can't see the justification for a big trade/signing of a Span or Fowler, parting with lots of prospects or money, for a guy who plays Billy Hamilton's position. Makes no sense to me.

LF - there is no incumbent and there is nobody in the wings. The Reds will have to get somebody. Ludwick wants serious money apparently. That position may require a trade of prospects or a substantial contract.

Fowler or Span can always shift to LF when Hamilton is ready. The guy who must be replaced immediately is Stubbs. The offense the Reds are getting from CF is a full-blown crisis and completely unacceptable for a team that should be contending for a World Series title. Upgrading that position this winter has got to be the top priority.

As Ludwick demonstrated last season, LF can be filled with discount options (and don't overlook Paul and Heisey, who could be part of a mix-and-match situation). If the Reds make a major deal for a guy like Justin Upton, that's fine, but they still have to address CF even if they do that.

That's why a Fowler or Span would make some sense: short-term solution in CF, long-term in LF.

Quick point on Frazier at 3B (from your previous post) - he only got 96 games at the position in the minors. It was one of the poorer developmental decisions the organization has made in recent years. Frazier was always going to make it and 3B was the position he was most likely to play. Now he's in the majors and still learning the position. I suspect he's got upside with the glove. It's just a matter of getting his reps in.

mdccclxix
11-13-2012, 12:12 PM
When you look at the Reds resources, they don't have a CF ready for next year that can command that position during a pennant campaign. They need to fix that. With Votto, Frazier, Bruce in 3-4-5, not to mention Phillips, they have enough potential offensively and could use some more OBP while holding court defensively with Victorino. Meanwhile, preserving the pitching depth is a key benefit to adding a FA. If it means Heisey wins LF, then there's potential upside there as well. Heisey for Rolen, Frazier for Ludwick. Should even out offensively. Meanwhile CF is way better off and we have all our pitching depth.

RedEye
11-13-2012, 12:18 PM
Justin Upton

Dan
11-15-2012, 01:23 PM
I didn't think this was realistic until a couple days ago:

Giancarlo Stanton

Bumstead
11-15-2012, 01:55 PM
Michael Bourn

REDREAD
11-16-2012, 01:17 PM
LF, on the other hand, is empty right now with Ludwick as a FA. I'd think the "bigger" signing should be a LFer, where there is no Billy Hamilton on the horizon.
.

I agree. Right now, the biggest hole is in LF.
If we do nothing.. We've got Heisey and Paul out there.
That means BP back in the cleanup slot, which creates a hole in the top of the lineup..

No one on the board is a fan of Stubbs right now, but if we get a decent LF (or 3b that can hit in the middle of the lineup) we could survive having Stubbs in CF until Billy is ready. I think we are going to see Billy up on the club at some point in 2013.. The club is going to want to give him a chance.

Kc61
11-16-2012, 02:10 PM
Fowler or Span can always shift to LF when Hamilton is ready. The guy who must be replaced immediately is Stubbs. The offense the Reds are getting from CF is a full-blown crisis and completely unacceptable for a team that should be contending for a World Series title. Upgrading that position this winter has got to be the top priority.

As Ludwick demonstrated last season, LF can be filled with discount options (and don't overlook Paul and Heisey, who could be part of a mix-and-match situation). If the Reds make a major deal for a guy like Justin Upton, that's fine, but they still have to address CF even if they do that.

That's why a Fowler or Span would make some sense: short-term solution in CF, long-term in LF.

Quick point on Frazier at 3B (from your previous post) - he only got 96 games at the position in the minors. It was one of the poorer developmental decisions the organization has made in recent years. Frazier was always going to make it and 3B was the position he was most likely to play. Now he's in the majors and still learning the position. I suspect he's got upside with the glove. It's just a matter of getting his reps in.

Don't agree with some of this: I don't think you pay for a CFer like Span or Fowler only to move them to LF in a year. Neither is the righty power hitter the Reds need for LF. Neither will be happy in LF as opposed to CF.

Also don't agree that LF can be manned through a cut rate acquisition. Reds did get lucky with Ludwick, but I hate to go to the scrap heap for starting players. Reds will need somebody real in LF, maybe Ludwick, maybe a trade, but it likely will cost money or prospects.

Xman and Heisey are ok for the bench, but not regular LFers. I've already said that I don't like Heisey's plate approach and would try to trade him for value.

While I would support the Reds' use of Frazier in the minors for various reasons, I agree that he can improve defensively with more time. I have no problem with him at third next year, unless it makes more sense to play him in LF.

M2
11-16-2012, 06:24 PM
Don't care which side of the plate the Reds LF hits from. With Frazier, Phillips, Cozart and Mes/Hanigan, the team has plenty of RH bats in the lineup.

powersackers
11-27-2012, 06:44 PM
Anybodythatwecansignortradeforthatputsdrewstubbson thebench

Vottomatic
11-27-2012, 08:14 PM
Anybodythatwecansignortradeforthatputsdrewstubbson thebench

yeahwhathesaid

cincrazy
11-27-2012, 08:33 PM
Can DeJesus still play center? Or is he a train wreck there?

SidneySlicker
11-27-2012, 10:47 PM
Justin Upton

Ghosts of 1990
11-28-2012, 09:25 AM
Willingham

Mario-Rijo
11-28-2012, 05:42 PM
After some heavy consideration for CF, Chase Headley is the guy I think fills the most needs for us.

A switch hitter, gets on base, hits for power, runs pretty well and is still only 28 (29 in May). And most importantly a very sound defender at 3B perhaps the most overlooked issue going forward, the Pitchers are gonna miss Rolen down there. Isn't prohibitive dollars wise (though it would be ideal to offer him a LTC). He is a better overall fit than virtually any LF we could get (3B being tougher to obtain) and we can keep Frazier out there who I love as a player but is still no sure thing at 3B.

Only con is he would cost a pretty penny in prospects/players. But a Leake led package would have a fair shot of procuring his services IMO. Perhaps we could even get Will Venable tossed in to split time/take over CF.

Leake, Cingrani, Gregorious & Heisey for the 2 of them seems a fair deal. Then sign yet another former Padre to backup at SS (Bartlett). Sorry I got a bit carried away but the one name here is Headley, everything else is just a follow up plan.