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klw
11-29-2012, 05:34 PM
for the Nats 2011 #1 pick, Alex Meyer.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/nationals-acquire-denard-span.html


Meyer, the 23rd overall selection of the 2011 draft, pitched well in 2012, his lone season as a pro. He pitched at Class A, posting a 2.86 ERA with 9.7 K/9 and 3.1 BB/9 in 129 innings. The 6'9" 22-year-old might rank sixth among Twins prospects, John Manuel of Baseball America notes (on Twitter).

Here are Meyer's stats.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=meyer-001ale&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com

I am guessing the equivalent offer would have been if the Reds sent Stephenson to the Twins. Meyer is older and was taken about 5 slots ahead of Stephenson in 2011. He was ranked by BA as the Nats #6 prospect prior to 12.

WildcatFan
11-29-2012, 05:38 PM
Just posted in the news thread. He's a similar prospect to Robert Stephenson.

LvJ
11-29-2012, 05:46 PM
Now go get Morse for LF.

klw
11-29-2012, 06:00 PM
Now go get Morse for LF.

More likely the Nats let Laroche walk and play Morse at 1b.


Span, 28, provides the Nationals with an established center fielder. His presence will presumably keep Bryce Harper and Jayson Werth in outfield corners. It could also impact the Nationals' interest in Adam LaRoche, since Michael Morse's primary position might now be first base. Alternatively, the Nationals could move Morse to a team seeking offense and continue pursuing LaRoche.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#o2trIqtTjQU733oL.99

Kc61
11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
If this prospect is like Stephenson, I am overjoyed that the Reds did not trade for Span.

Good non-move for Reds, IMO.

mdccclxix
11-29-2012, 06:10 PM
There is question if Meyers will stick as a starter, but I'm sure the Twins don't feel that way. This one's all on some scout somewhere. I didn't know Meyer was from Greensburg, IN though. That's pretty close to Cincinnati.

klw
11-29-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't know much about Meyer. It would seem that his age, etc might make Cingrani a better comp as his age may make him closer to the bigs than Stephenson. Obviously a tall lad.

klw
11-29-2012, 06:14 PM
Here is a Minnesota article on the trade. It has a link to video on Meyer.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181434491.html

RedsManRick
11-29-2012, 06:18 PM
I wonder if this means Bourn to the Phillies is imminent.

Vottomatic
11-29-2012, 06:23 PM
Good. I didn't want Span. Too much to pay anyway.

mdccclxix
11-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Span is a hard one to figure out. He's got his devotees in Minnesota that feel they got robbed. On the other hand, his numbers are just okay, which in today's environment may actually be good.

mdccclxix
11-29-2012, 06:42 PM
Uhh, this is Span's tweet from 3 hours ago:


Denard Span ‏@thisisdspan

Getting older ain't no joke! #grammarcheck

Tadasimha
11-29-2012, 06:44 PM
Uhh, this is Span's tweet from 3 hours ago:

Wonder how fast his agent is going to have him take that tweet down?

Wonderful Monds
11-29-2012, 07:07 PM
There is question if Meyers will stick as a starter, but I'm sure the Twins don't feel that way. This one's all on some scout somewhere. I didn't know Meyer was from Greensburg, IN though. That's pretty close to Cincinnati.

He's pitched against my high school a few times, which likely makes him the only pro baseball player who has ever competed for or against them lol.

Huge overpay for Span btw. Very glad the Reds didn't get involved.

dougdirt
11-29-2012, 07:10 PM
Just posted in the news thread. He's a similar prospect to Robert Stephenson.
I think he is more Corcino/Cingrani than Stephenson. As prospects they are all different, but in terms of prospect value, I think he is a lot closer to Corcino or Cingrani than he is to Stephenson.

cinreds21
11-29-2012, 07:25 PM
If the Reds only had to give up Cingrani, then I would have done it in a heartbeat. I really thought it would take two or three players to get Span.

jojo
11-29-2012, 07:43 PM
for the Nats 2011 #1 pick, Alex Meyer.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/nationals-acquire-denard-span.html



Here are Meyer's stats.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=meyer-001ale&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com

I am guessing the equivalent offer would have been if the Reds sent Stephenson to the Twins. Meyer is older and was taken about 5 slots ahead of Stephenson in 2011. He was ranked by BA as the Nats #6 prospect prior to 12.

Meyer may be a great arm but he's a long way from the top if he wants to rock and roll. If I'm the nationals, i'm looking to stay on the top of the rock and roll charts so I pull the trigger without remorse.

Edd Roush
11-29-2012, 10:22 PM
I would have easily paid one of Cingrani/Corcino/Stephenson for Span. What's not to like about a .357 career OBP in the leadoff spot with some solid speed and defense?

Here is a fangraphs' take
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/

Kc61
11-29-2012, 10:46 PM
I would have easily paid one of Cingrani/Corcino/Stephenson for Span. What's not to like about a .357 career OBP in the leadoff spot with some solid speed and defense?

Here is a fangraphs' take
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/

Span is a very good outfielder defensively, no doubt. As a hitter, I'm not enthused.

His lifetime percentages are very good because of outstanding seasons in 2008 and 2009. Unfortunately, it's now almost 2013.

Span's lifetime OBP may be .357 but his highest the last three seasons was .342. He also had .331 and .328.

Span's OPS in 2010 and 2011 was under .700 -- .679 and .687. It was a bit higher this year, but he has little power, with 23 homers in five seasons.

WIth Hamilton on the way, I'm really glad the Reds didn't trade a major prospect in this player.

M2
11-29-2012, 11:03 PM
Meyer may be a great arm but he's a long way from the top if he wants to rock and roll. If I'm the nationals, i'm looking to stay on the top of the rock and roll charts so I pull the trigger without remorse.

Agreed. Also, Corcino was ranked ahead of him in Sickels' mid-season top prospects list. Seems like Meyer is more in the Corcino/Cingrani neck of the prospect woods than Stephenson. I suspect we'd be doing cartwheels if the Reds had moved a non-Stephenson arm for Span. IIRC, many thought Span would cost Bailey or Leake plus stuff.

marcshoe
11-29-2012, 11:35 PM
Span wasn't really my choice, for the reasons listed above. I'd love to get an upgrade in left along with somebody like Victorino, but I really would like a better bat than Span.

Of course if they could manage Fowler, that would be nice.

M2
11-30-2012, 12:09 AM
Of course if they could manage Fowler, that would be nice.

The market for Fowler is shrinking rapidly. Jocketty could wind up the last shopper willing to offer anything of real value.

Scrap Irony
11-30-2012, 12:16 AM
Would Leake, Arredondo, and Corcino get the deal done for Fowler? Jocketty would then have to sign at least one (and likely two) AAAA lifers or gamble on a Scott Kazmir or Aaron Cooke-type guys. He'd also likely have to gamble on a guy like Jason Bay for LF, with Xavier Paul and Chris Heisey as backups.

But yeah, I'd love to see Fowler in Cincinnati.

Fowler CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Frazier 3B
Bruce RF
Bay LF
Haniraco C
Cozart/ Gregorius SS

That's a solid team, IMO. If Hamilton can move up mid-season, Fowler drops to the second spot in the lineup and into LF. (Imagine that top of the order.) Phillips would probably move to the sixth spot in the lineup (which suits his bat much, much better, IMO).

MikeS21
11-30-2012, 12:38 AM
I don't think Jocketty will do anything to bring in a CF. Why give away valuable trading chips for a Rent-A-Player who at most will be a half season fill-in until Hamilton is ready? He already has Drew Stubbs to keep the position warm until probably mid-June and Billy Hamilton proves he is ready for the big time.

Look, I'm not advocating rushing Billy. I'd love to see him get a full year in 2013 in the minors. But I doubt the Reds will allow a PR magnet like Hamilton to develop properly.

Seriously, why trade away valuable trading chips for a guy who will on the bench come July? Use your chips to get a bopper in LF, or an upgrade over Todd Fraizer at 3B.

corkedbat
11-30-2012, 01:05 AM
I'm starting to believe that the Reds will pass (or whiff) on the main marquis CF targets (Bourn, Span, Fowler and Pagan) and look at adding a platoon partner for Stubbs as a bridge to Billy. Victorino, Crisp or DeJesus would be my guess, but a rental for a year on Ellsbury would be nice if the Red Sox' price were right. Possibly send them a couple of nice pieces if they take Bronson too (maybe make a deal with Bronson on his contract). Use Bronson's money to possibly make room for a deal on a LF like Willingham or Choo.


CF Jacoby Ellsbury
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
LF Josh Willingham/Shin-Soo Choo
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
SS Zach Cozart
CA Ryan Hanigan

Reds/Flyers Fan
11-30-2012, 02:28 AM
This is disappointing. Span was my first choice. The Nats are being aggressive and addressing weaknesses to improve on the best record in baseball last year. The Reds are weakening their bullpen in order to experiment in the rotation.

dougdirt
11-30-2012, 02:36 AM
I would have easily paid one of Cingrani/Corcino/Stephenson for Span. What's not to like about a .357 career OBP in the leadoff spot with some solid speed and defense?

Here is a fangraphs' take
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/

My guess is that you have never watched Stephenson pitch then. Cingrani or Corcino I get. Not sure I would pull the trigger, but I would get where someone else would. But Stephenson is in a different boat. He is a different breed.

membengal
11-30-2012, 06:37 AM
Would Leake, Arredondo, and Corcino get the deal done for Fowler? Jocketty would then have to sign at least one (and likely two) AAAA lifers or gamble on a Scott Kazmir or Aaron Cooke-type guys. He'd also likely have to gamble on a guy like Jason Bay for LF, with Xavier Paul and Chris Heisey as backups.

But yeah, I'd love to see Fowler in Cincinnati.

Fowler CF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Frazier 3B
Bruce RF
Bay LF
Haniraco C
Cozart/ Gregorius SS

That's a solid team, IMO. If Hamilton can move up mid-season, Fowler drops to the second spot in the lineup and into LF. (Imagine that top of the order.) Phillips would probably move to the sixth spot in the lineup (which suits his bat much, much better, IMO).

As a charter member of the Fowler to Cincinnati fan club, I heartily "like" this post.

mth123
11-30-2012, 07:24 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/rockies-not-likely-to-trade-dexter-fowler.html

Coors creation. Not worth unloading the farm for IMO. If he could be had for spare minor leaguers like Vidal, Lamarre, Lotzkar, etc, I'd take him. No need to tell me it will never happen. I know it will take a lot more than that.

For a short term fix, I'd rather go after Dejesus as a platoon partner for Stubbs. I think he would exactly fill the need for on base, production against RHP and a game that isn't dependent on his home park. He could probably be had for spare parts, and could still be useful in the LF mix if/when Hamilton arrives.

The Reds already have their central players on hand (Votto, Bruce, Phillips). They have specific needs that should be targeted rather than gutting the depth to acquire a "name" that may not really provide much more production than a startegically used tandem could provide. I'd bet a Dejesus/Stubbs tandem, platooned properly, would provide more CF production than nearly every team in the NL. I'd guess they'd be in the top 5. Kemp and McCutcheon would be better, maybe Jay in St. Louis (he's better than all these names IMO) as well, but after that, I'm having a hard time seeing a more productive situation in CF in the NL. I think they'd outproduce BJ Upton, Michael Bourne, Shane Victorino, Angel Pagan, Dexter Fowler or Denard Span for a fraction of the cost either in talent to acquire or talent to be jettisoned to fit them into the budget. The long term solution is on the way. Big acquistions are not needed. Getting Stubbs on the bench againt RHP improves the situation by leaps and bounds. Subbing a guy who provides an .800+ OPS against RHP would make this position one of the team's strengths.

Edd Roush
11-30-2012, 09:42 AM
Span is a very good outfielder defensively, no doubt. As a hitter, I'm not enthused.

His lifetime percentages are very good because of outstanding seasons in 2008 and 2009. Unfortunately, it's now almost 2013.

Span's lifetime OBP may be .357 but his highest the last three seasons was .342. He also had .331 and .328.

Span's OPS in 2010 and 2011 was under .700 -- .679 and .687. It was a bit higher this year, but he has little power, with 23 homers in five seasons.

WIth Hamilton on the way, I'm really glad the Reds didn't trade a major prospect in this player.

You are correct, Span may never return to his 2008 & 2009 levels. But, that .342 OBP was just last year. That is a heck of an improvement over what the Reds got from the leadoff spot last year.

I am not too worried about slugging out of the leadoff spot. I just want guys on base for Phillips/Votto/Bruce/Left fielder.

He also is a bargain the next two years at $4.75 mil for 2013 and $6.5 mil in 2014. Plus, Denard would very likely be worth the $9 mil team option in 2015.

I hope Walt has something else up his sleeve, because Denard would have been a great addition at the price.

Edd Roush
11-30-2012, 09:47 AM
My guess is that you have never watched Stephenson pitch then. Cingrani or Corcino I get. Not sure I would pull the trigger, but I would get where someone else would. But Stephenson is in a different boat. He is a different breed.

I have seen Stephenson pitch a couple times. I think he is a special talent, a different breed. That being said, he is at least three years away from contributing. While I don't think the Reds should sell the whole farm to win now, I do believe that we can trade some future value for some present value.

The Reds have a gaping black hole in centerfield, this we both agree on. I would try to deal Cingrani first, and if that wasn't a better offer than Meyer, I would then offer Corcino, if the Twins said I need Stephenson, I would still pull the trigger.

I can't judge Walt on his off-season for a while, but if Corcino or Cingrani or Stephenson could have got us Span in July, I am very upset Walt did not pull the trigger then. I legitimately think the difference between Span and Stubbs is the difference between at least a playoff series win and a first round exit.

dunner13
11-30-2012, 10:03 AM
I really don't think Walt has any serious interest in getting a CF/Leadoff because there hoping that Billy Hamilton fills that role by the All Star Break. Think about it, if we get Span for 3 years then what do we do with Hamilton? Trade Him? He's going to be way cheaper then Span, Bourne, Bj Upton, Victorino or any other option and he may very well be better then them, and with the SB's a lot better then them. I think we will hear the reds rumored on CF options but in the end we will open Spring Training with Stubbs and Hamilton as the options and if Hamilton is ready then he will be handed the job on Opening Day if not then Stubbs will play til he is ready. I would much rather wait on Hamilton and keep Stephenson and are other pitching prospects then give them up for a guy whos not even as good as Hamilton.

RedsManRick
11-30-2012, 10:24 AM
I really don't think Walt has any serious interest in getting a CF/Leadoff because there hoping that Billy Hamilton fills that role by the All Star Break. Think about it, if we get Span for 3 years then what do we do with Hamilton? Trade Him? He's going to be way cheaper then Span, Bourne, Bj Upton, Victorino or any other option and he may very well be better then them, and with the SB's a lot better then them. I think we will hear the reds rumored on CF options but in the end we will open Spring Training with Stubbs and Hamilton as the options and if Hamilton is ready then he will be handed the job on Opening Day if not then Stubbs will play til he is ready. I would much rather wait on Hamilton and keep Stephenson and are other pitching prospects then give them up for a guy whos not even as good as Hamilton.

If there's any GM who values the bird in the hand, it's Jocketty.

Kc61
11-30-2012, 10:35 AM
I really don't think Walt has any serious interest in getting a CF/Leadoff because there hoping that Billy Hamilton fills that role by the All Star Break. Think about it, if we get Span for 3 years then what do we do with Hamilton? Trade Him? He's going to be way cheaper then Span, Bourne, Bj Upton, Victorino or any other option and he may very well be better then them, and with the SB's a lot better then them. I think we will hear the reds rumored on CF options but in the end we will open Spring Training with Stubbs and Hamilton as the options and if Hamilton is ready then he will be handed the job on Opening Day if not then Stubbs will play til he is ready. I would much rather wait on Hamilton and keep Stephenson and are other pitching prospects then give them up for a guy whos not even as good as Hamilton.

I don't agree, I think Walt will get a CF on a short contract for next year, two years max. Coco Crisp has one year left on his contract, with an option for 2014.

The more I think about it, the more Crisp makes a lot of sense for the Reds. The A's now have a lot of outfielders and Crisp is expendable.

I'm not saying Coco is a world beater, but given the Reds' situation, he would fit the bill for now. Switch hitter, can lead off, hits righties for a decent OBP, short contract. Might be a tad expensive for next year at $7 million. But a better choice IMO than Victorino who will want multiple years.

Crisp could also be a good mentor for Hamilton, both switch hitting centerfielders, Coco certainly has the experience to help Billy if they both are Reds at the same time.

I DO agree that the Reds won't break the bank or make a big deal for a star CF with Hamilton in the wings. Glad they didn't go for Span.

REDREAD
11-30-2012, 11:23 AM
I don't think Jocketty will do anything to bring in a CF. Why give away valuable trading chips for a Rent-A-Player who at most will be a half season fill-in until Hamilton is ready? He already has Drew Stubbs to keep the position warm until probably mid-June and Billy Hamilton proves he is ready for the big time.
.

I agree completely. I'm glad the Reds didn't make this trade (although I wouldn't have been horribly upset if they did, I guess).

LF/3b is a more pressing need. If we don't get a LF that can either hit in the middle of the lineup or leadoff, Phillips goes back to cleanup hitter, and we still have a hole at the top of the order. I guess to explain.. If we got Span (but couldn't get a decent LF), then the #2 hitter becomes one of Heisey/Stubbs/Cozart.. still an OBP "sink".

If we get a good LF (or 3b) for the middle of the lineup, Phillips moves to the top of the order.. He's a better hitter than Span. Then maybe Billy H gives us a boost in July/August. I really don't want to be forced to play Billy H in LF because of Span..

Span is signed for awhile.. that's great for a team like the Nats, but not a team like the Reds.. Now I would not mind finding a guy to share CF with Stubbs that would not cost much resources to acquire, as Mth suggested.