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View Full Version : Ludwick Contract Offer/ Ludwick has deal with the Reds.



Superdude
12-04-2012, 09:32 AM
https://twitter.com/johnfayman/status/275725632275611648

I guess we have an offer out to Ludwick. Should have some sort of response today I would think. Talk about it here!

mdccclxix
12-04-2012, 09:40 AM
Makes a lot of sense. I'm a believer in the turnaround. He had a good rhythm at the plate and you could tell his success was a mentality. He's also the Reds best bet to save money on a FA contract because he likes the team, he likes the city as well, has family close, and would possibly defer some money.

Blitz Dorsey
12-04-2012, 09:44 AM
My guess is 2 years, $13-14 million.

Jonny Gomes getting 2-years, $10 mil from the Red Sox probably drove up the market a bit. Still can't believe the Sox were dumb enough to do that. Oh wait a minute, yes I can!

I like the idea of Ludwick re-signing and I expected it. I was surprised when Fay said on Twitter last week that he doubted Ludwick would be back with the Reds in 2013.

mdccclxix
12-04-2012, 09:46 AM
My guess is 2 years, $13-14 million.

Jonny Gomes getting 2-years, $10 mil from the Red Sox probably drove up the market a bit. Still can't believe the Sox were dumb enough to do that. Oh wait a minute, yes I can!

I like the idea of Ludwick re-signing and I expected it. I was surprised when Fay said on Twitter last week that he doubted Ludwick would be back with the Reds in 2013.

Fay seems to know as much as you or I do.

klw
12-04-2012, 09:52 AM
If Angel Pagan got 4/40, I would assume Ludwick gets closer to 2/20 with a team option for a 3rd year at 12 with a 2 buyout.

Benihana
12-04-2012, 10:12 AM
If the Reds are remotely considering giving Ludwick 2/20, I really hope they will entertain the Justin Upton option.

Superdude
12-04-2012, 10:15 AM
If Angel Pagan got 4/40, I would assume Ludwick gets closer to 2/20 with a team option for a 3rd year at 12 with a 2 buyout.

I'm thinking the same thing. If we're not going beyond two years, I don't think he's coming cheap with the way contracts have been shaping up so far. Outside of a big deal for Upton or Choo, I don't see much else out there so I think they'll press pretty hard to get a deal done.

REDREAD
12-04-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm thinking the same thing. If we're not going beyond two years, I don't think he's coming cheap with the way contracts have been shaping up so far. Outside of a big deal for Upton or Choo, I don't see much else out there so I think they'll press pretty hard to get a deal done.

Yea, I could live with 2/20.. It would be nice to get LF settled without selling the farm. I guess we all need to get used to the salary inflation that's coming.

Nice that the Reds are trying to get this settled quickly (one way or another).
If they can't work out something with Ludwick, plenty of other options available.

mdccclxix
12-04-2012, 11:57 AM
I can see where paying Ludwick some extra accomplishes a lot for the Reds. If you can get all these things for one player on a short deal, what's not to like:

1) Cleanup hitter & RHB that hits RHP pretty well
2) Retain all your starting pitching
3) Retain all your prospects
4) Leadoff is settled with Phillips > then Hamilton
5) Good clubhouse guy. Keeps the band together.
6) Probably still below market rate
7) Platoon-able guy, so won't dry up the bench guys (Heisey, Paul, hopefully Fellhauer)

I can see a slight overpay. Especially with the way the Nats, Phils, Braves and Cards are loaded with pitching. Makes you less willy nilly with your strong staff. Ludwick keeps things pinned down in a lot of ways and moves the org forward with its own. I still want a leadoff CF though, yet the market is pretty extreme there.

RedlegJake
12-04-2012, 11:57 AM
The key to any big deal is likely Ludwick...if he signs then all emphasis shifts to getting that leadoff man. If he doesn't they may go after an Upton LF type and sit back with BP and wait for Billy.

mattfeet
12-04-2012, 05:12 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds talked to Ludwick, waiting hear back. "We're in the ballpark," Jocketty said. It's a 2-year deal. "I think they understand that."

mattfeet
12-04-2012, 05:13 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Jocketty things it will be resolved with Ludwick this week. "We need certainty with our roster." #reds

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-04-2012, 05:15 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds talked to Ludwick, waiting hear back. "We're in the ballpark," Jocketty said. It's a 2-year deal. "I think they understand that."

Get into the ballpark with Justin Upton, please.

Benihana
12-04-2012, 05:21 PM
Get into the ballpark with Justin Upton, please.

:thumbup:

klw
12-04-2012, 05:57 PM
If Angel Pagan got 4/40, I would assume Ludwick gets closer to 2/20 with a team option for a 3rd year at 12 with a 2 buyout.

With Victorino getting 3/37.5, I wonder if Ludwick may be more like 2/22 with that 12/2 option.

Benihana
12-04-2012, 07:25 PM
With Victorino getting 3/37.5, I wonder if Ludwick may be more like 2/22 with that 12/2 option.

Hate to keep beating a dead horse, but who would you rather have:

Victorino for 3/38
Ludwick for 2/22
J.Upton for 3/37

I'd happily trade the prospects for Upton's contract out of that lot.

hebroncougar
12-04-2012, 07:41 PM
Hate to keep beating a dead horse, but who would you rather have:

Victorino for 3/38
Ludwick for 2/22
J.Upton for 3/37

I'd happily trade the prospects for Upton's contract out of that lot.

I guess it would depend on the prospects required.

Nathan
12-04-2012, 08:09 PM
Hate to keep beating a dead horse, but who would you rather have:

Victorino for 3/38
Ludwick for 2/22
J.Upton for 3/37

I'd happily trade the prospects for Upton's contract out of that lot.

Ludwick. I want absolutely nothing to do with Upton.

hebroncougar
12-04-2012, 08:26 PM
With these new crazy contracts, I think young cheap players are becoming infinitely more valuable. And I really don't trust Upton going forward. Too much like his brother

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

The Voice of IH
12-04-2012, 10:35 PM
The Reds are inching closer

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/reds-have-offer-out-to-ludwick.html

corkedbat
12-04-2012, 10:50 PM
The Reds are inching closer

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/reds-have-offer-out-to-ludwick.html

I think it will be less than $10M per. The main thing separating them may be the number of years. Luddy wants three the Reds are offering two. Just make it two with an option. Then go rent Ellsbury for a year from the Red Sox.

Blitz Dorsey
12-04-2012, 11:28 PM
Mark Sheldon is so freakin' clueless. Last year, he was last to report on everything. (Latos trade, Ludwick signing, Madson signing.) You would think someone from "MLB.com" would have better connections. He has about as much of an idea of what is going to happen as you and me.

Sheldon's latest is this gem:

"@m_sheldon: Hearing that Ludwick rumor on being close to signing with #reds not so true."

Translation: Look for Ludwick to sign with Reds soon. Another case of Sheldon being clueless.

Blitz Dorsey
12-04-2012, 11:32 PM
Hilarious. After being called out on Twitter, Sheldon just responded with this:

"@m_sheldon Addendum: I still expect Ludwick and #reds to get something done. As Jocketty said earlier, sides not far apart."

At least he's finally on board with reality.

The Voice of IH
12-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Hilarious. After being called out on Twitter, Sheldon just responded with this:

"@m_sheldon Addendum: I still expect Ludwick and #reds to get something done. As Jocketty said earlier, sides not far apart."

At least he's finally on board with reality.

You have to realize that Mark Sheldon and John Fay are beat writers.

They do not report on something until the Reds make things official. They do not rely on their sources to give them information, but instead waits for something to come from their email.

kaldaniels
12-04-2012, 11:49 PM
You have to realize that Mark Sheldon and John Fay are beat writers.

They do not report on something until the Reds make things official. They do not rely on their sources to give them information, but instead waits for something to come from their email.

Sheldon works for the man. He doesn't throw us many bones in terms of rumors.

Fay, as a true beat writer does try to get and report info from his secret sources. Try being the key word there.

Be that all as it may, Sheldon and Fay are on different ends of the journalism spectrum.

Superdude
12-04-2012, 11:49 PM
I think it will be less than $10M per. The main thing separating them may be the number of years. Luddy wants three the Reds are offering two. Just make it two with an option. Then go rent Ellsbury for a year from the Red Sox.

I read the Mets were only going 2 years at 6-7 million a year. Kind of surprised Ludwick's slipping so under the radar in a year where Victorino and Pagan have raked in a total of 79 million dollars worth of contract.

Blitz Dorsey
12-04-2012, 11:49 PM
You have to realize that Mark Sheldon and John Fay are beat writers.

They do not report on something until the Reds make things official. They do not rely on their sources to give them information, but instead waits for something to come from their email.

You can do both as a reporter my friend. You can report the facts and the facts alone in certain stories. Then in other stories, you can quote sources and use your inside information to craft a piece. You do realize this is how it works for the vast majority of beat writers, correct?

cincrazy
12-04-2012, 11:54 PM
I loved Ludwick last year. He's a good dude. I just hope last year wasn't a fluke one year carpet ride. He's not a spring chicken. Can he sustain that success for the next few years and continue to give us the big righty bat we need in the middle of the lineup? I don't think it's a bad risk to take, but I have my doubts as to whether the Ludwick we got the last half of last year is the one we get going forward.

osuceltic
12-04-2012, 11:59 PM
RT @Jim_Duquette: Ryan Ludwick deal with Cincinnati is likely 2 @ 14 mil.

If that's accurate and the deal is done, it's a good one for the Reds.

FlightRick
12-05-2012, 12:09 AM
If that's accurate, I'll do a jig. I thought to get him at $7m per year, it'd take 3 years for certain. And in that case, it isn't the money I was gonna have an issue with, it was the extra year.

I'd still really like to see us pursue another significant OF, one who can cover CF. Not just as insurance against Hamilton being a flop, and not just because it'd be a CF who is not-Stubbs. But because I think if you have Ludwick out there as your LF, you now need something other than a standard "fourth OF" just because last year seemed to show that Ludwick benefited from getting 1 or 2 days off per week. In the specific case of 2013, Stubbs is actually perfect as that "third-and-a-half" OF, if we can get a guy like Fowler or Crisp who has 2 or fewer years of control left to be the everyday-ish CF, while playing some in LF.

Then again, that's all putting the cart ahead of the horse, since the operative words here are "if that's accurate."


Rick

camisadelgolf
12-05-2012, 12:12 AM
Source - Ludwick deal and Cinci is NOT done. Ludwick wants to play out other options.

Ludwick deal not expected to be finalized tonite. Still likely that Cinci is the team - but not done

WVRedsFan
12-05-2012, 12:47 AM
Drat. Hopefully tomorrow.

Blitz Dorsey
12-05-2012, 01:09 AM
If that's accurate and the deal is done, it's a good one for the Reds.

Also, I'm really good at predicting these things.

Whoops, separated my shoulder patting myself on the back. But I also called the Broxton deal almost to the year and the dollar.

There goes the other shoulder.

kaldaniels
12-05-2012, 01:18 AM
Did someone say "pat themselves on the back"?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2689448&postcount=53


I don't think any of us are too far apart on the numbers, I just see a 3 yr 21 MM deal being the sweet spot, with the last year being a team option for 7 MM. This assumes he continues his yearly pace and finishes with over .850 OPS and over 25 HR.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 08:32 AM
Not sure how I feel about this signing, if it happens.

Good guy. Local guy playing for his childhood team. Likes playing for the Reds. Is a good clubhouse guy. Had his best season probably ever for us.............BUT.......

......will it be all downhill from here? Does he invoke fear in opposing pitchers to protect Votto? (NO)

Also, when finalized, you can put all the Justin Upton rumors to bed. Unless the Reds are willing to move Bruce to CF, play Ludwick in LF, and trade to play Upton in RF. Extremely, extremely doubtful. It's looking like the Reds sign Ludwick and stand pat. I don't see them doing anything else this offseason if Ludwick gets signed.

Superdude
12-05-2012, 09:38 AM
......will it be all downhill from here? Does he invoke fear in opposing pitchers to protect Votto? (NO)

If he maintains what he did last year, I would say him and Bruce should be plenty of protection for Votto. There's the age concern, but if this turns out to be a two year deal like reported, that risk is mitigated to some degree.

bucksfan2
12-05-2012, 10:34 AM
Not sure how I feel about this signing, if it happens.

Good guy. Local guy playing for his childhood team. Likes playing for the Reds. Is a good clubhouse guy. Had his best season probably ever for us.............BUT.......

......will it be all downhill from here? Does he invoke fear in opposing pitchers to protect Votto? (NO)

Also, when finalized, you can put all the Justin Upton rumors to bed. Unless the Reds are willing to move Bruce to CF, play Ludwick in LF, and trade to play Upton in RF. Extremely, extremely doubtful. It's looking like the Reds sign Ludwick and stand pat. I don't see them doing anything else this offseason if Ludwick gets signed.

Would you rather give Victorino a 3 year deal? Or how about 4 years for Pagan?

I think Jocketty had Ludwick in his back pocket the entire time. I don't think that changes anything about him looking elsewhere for a CF. He has to realize that Stubbs/Heisey in CF isn't going to cut it again, does he?

dunner13
12-05-2012, 11:09 AM
Ok heres an out of the box idea, not sure how realistic it is but its just a thought.

Trade Bailey and Gregorious to ARZ for Upton
Put Ludwick in LF, Bruce in CF, Upton in RF Might not have a lot of speed out there but that outfield is loaded with power.

Then trade Billy Hamilton and Mescoraco to the Rays for Matt Moore
Supposedly the rays are open to trading anyone including Moore and you have to figure that offer would at least get them thinking.
Obviously I don't think this will happen but that would be a stacked OF and we would have an insanely good rotation with Latos, Cueto, Chapman and Moore

Blitz Dorsey
12-05-2012, 11:27 AM
Some of you would have been OK with giving Ludwick $10 million/year for 2 years. The Reds are about to get him for $7 million. I'm surprised that so many of you seem ho-hum about this move. With Votto in place, it's all about building around him. Ludwick is a good fit for this team. He's not great and his numbers might decline a bit, but you never know. It's not out of the question that he could maintain his 2012 numbers.

And who else were the Reds going to get to fill the void of a LF/cleanup hitter that bats right-handed? They had a limited amount of money and I think they're making the most out of it.

PuffyPig
12-05-2012, 11:29 AM
I don't think that changes anything about him looking elsewhere for a CF. He has to realize that Stubbs/Heisey in CF isn't going to cut it again, does he?

I believe Walt is looking to improve CF, but that combo did cut it to the tune that the Reds had the 2nd best record in the majors last year. Sometimes you can't improve every position, when you play within a budget.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 11:30 AM
Ok heres an out of the box idea, not sure how realistic it is but its just a thought.

Trade Bailey and Gregorious to ARZ for Upton
Put Ludwick in LF, Bruce in CF, Upton in RF Might not have a lot of speed out there but that outfield is loaded with power.

Then trade Billy Hamilton and Mescoraco to the Rays for Matt Moore
Supposedly the rays are open to trading anyone including Moore and you have to figure that offer would at least get them thinking.
Obviously I don't think this will happen but that would be a stacked OF and we would have an insanely good rotation with Latos, Cueto, Chapman and Moore

Reds will never trade Hamilton. It would take a name for Giancarlo Stanton to come up for them to even consider it.

PuffyPig
12-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Reds will never trade Hamilton. It would take a name for Giancarlo Stanton to come up for them to even consider it.

I doubt they trade Hamilton either, but I'd be as much inclined to include him in a trade for Moore as Stanton.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 12:05 PM
I just looked at Moore's minor league numbers. His WHIP is a little higher than I'd like (BB/9 = 4+ in minor league career). And his major league debut could have been better.

He looks good but not like a future ace to me.

Benihana
12-05-2012, 12:22 PM
My guess is Ludwick signs in the next 48 hours. Upton looks like he could be headed to Texas, unfortunately.

Not sure how much more the Reds will/can do this offseason, other than acquire a platoon partner for Stubbs.

Maybe they save their bullets (ie pitchers) until midseason to see:

A) If Chapman can stick in the rotation
B) If Frazier and Ludwick can maintain close to last year's production
C) If Hamilton is ready and/or Stubbs can rebound
D) Who is healthy and where we really need an upgrade

I guess I'm OK with that strategy, although I really liked the idea of bringing in an impact OF, whether it's Upton, Choo, Ellsbury or Fowler.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 12:23 PM
I think they may acquire Choo.

REDREAD
12-05-2012, 12:52 PM
Some of you would have been OK with giving Ludwick $10 million/year for 2 years. The Reds are about to get him for $7 million. I'm surprised that so many of you seem ho-hum about this move. With Votto in place, it's all about building around him. Ludwick is a good fit for this team. He's not great and his numbers might decline a bit, but you never know. It's not out of the question that he could maintain his 2012 numbers.

And who else were the Reds going to get to fill the void of a LF/cleanup hitter that bats right-handed? They had a limited amount of money and I think they're making the most out of it.

That's how I feel.
If they can get Ludwick for 2 years at 10 million/year or less, it's a fantastic move. 7 million would be phenominal.
The market is getting crazy.. Gomes getting 5 million/year is just nuts.

If the Reds don't sign Ludwick, they are under pressure, because they absolutely have to acquire an OF.. that will probably lead to an overpay in a trade, because I doubt Walt is going to be giving out a contract like Victorino got for a mediocre player. (Victorino might bounce back, but that's not a contract I want the Reds to have).

Give me Ludwick and let me keep the farm intact. Hopefully we can get a little more offense this year from Frazier playing all year, Ludwick not adjusting, hopefully getting something out of Mez, Votto healthy, and some improvement from CF (even if it's just hoping the Stubbs/Hamilton combo improves from last year's CF production). Heck, we need to pick up two reserve infielders, hopefully that adds some strength to the bench/offense as well. (Hopefully one is a hitter).

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 01:16 PM
That's how I feel.
If they can get Ludwick for 2 years at 10 million/year or less, it's a fantastic move. 7 million would be phenominal.
The market is getting crazy.. Gomes getting 5 million/year is just nuts.

If the Reds don't sign Ludwick, they are under pressure, because they absolutely have to acquire an OF.. that will probably lead to an overpay in a trade, because I doubt Walt is going to be giving out a contract like Victorino got for a mediocre player. (Victorino might bounce back, but that's not a contract I want the Reds to have).

Give me Ludwick and let me keep the farm intact. Hopefully we can get a little more offense this year from Frazier playing all year, Ludwick not adjusting, hopefully getting something out of Mez, Votto healthy, and some improvement from CF (even if it's just hoping the Stubbs/Hamilton combo improves from last year's CF production). Heck, we need to pick up two reserve infielders, hopefully that adds some strength to the bench/offense as well. (Hopefully one is a hitter).

I go back and forth on all of this.

1. The good thing is, as reminded by another poster, the Reds won 97 games with Ludwick batting cleanup, Votto playing half a season on 1 leg, and Stubbs playing CF and wrongfully batting leadoff. Cozart and Frazier were 2 rookies that hopefully get better. The team is basically still intact.

2. After seeing how much teams are overpaying for Victorino and others, Ludwick is looking alot better.

3. I said earlier in this offseason that I will feel better later in the 2013 season after seeing how much Corcino, Cingrani, Gregorius, Hamilton, and other minor leaguers progress. I think it will answer alot of questions going forward. And I hope the team stays healthy all year, but more than likely will will see one or two of those guys come up with the major league club.

As these outfielders get signed, there will be a few left standing unsigned. Garbage or possibly other factors, there might be someone worth considering.

If the Reds have an injury plagued season, they are in good position to maybe upgrade at some point. I think they've positioned themselves well to not have to do anything drastic.

traderumor
12-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Ok heres an out of the box idea, not sure how realistic it is but its just a thought.

Trade Bailey and Gregorious to ARZ for Upton
Put Ludwick in LF, Bruce in CF, Upton in RF Might not have a lot of speed out there but that outfield is loaded with power.

Then trade Billy Hamilton and Mescoraco to the Rays for Matt Moore
Supposedly the rays are open to trading anyone including Moore and you have to figure that offer would at least get them thinking.
Obviously I don't think this will happen but that would be a stacked OF and we would have an insanely good rotation with Latos, Cueto, Chapman and MooreI think that might be a grand plan if I was drafting a Strat-O-Matic team, but I think the defensive penalty may be greater than the offense gained. Plus, Bruce likely is fighting power issues when he strains or blows out his hammy, or wear and tear on the knees, trying to keep up with the demands of covering both gaps. There's a reason he hasn't played CF but for a very, very few times very early in his MLB career.

PuffyPig
12-05-2012, 01:23 PM
I go back and forth on all of this.

1. The good thing is, as reminded by another poster, the Reds won 97 games with Ludwick batting cleanup, Votto playing half a season on 1 leg, and Stubbs playing CF and wrongfully batting leadoff. Cozart and Frazier were 2 rookies that hopefully get better. The team is basically still intact.

2. After seeing how much teams are overpaying for Victorino and others, Ludwick is looking alot better.

3. I said earlier in this offseason that I will feel better later in the 2013 season after seeing how much Corcino, Cingrani, Gregorius, Hamilton, and other minor leaguers progress. I think it will answer alot of questions going forward. And I hope the team stays healthy all year, but more than likely will will see one or two of those guys come up with the major league club.

As these outfielders get signed, there will be a few left standing unsigned. Garbage or possibly other factors, there might be someone worth considering.

If the Reds have an injury plagued season, they are in good position to maybe upgrade at some point. I think they've positioned themselves well to not have to do anything drastic.


Good summary Votto. The Reds aren't in a "we have to win right now" mode. Our window is really 3-4 years at least. It's not the time to do something drastic that is a one year move.

REDREAD
12-05-2012, 01:31 PM
I go back and forth on all of this.

.


I hear where you're coming from.
In my fantasy world, we trade for Choo (or another upgrade from Ludwick) and then sign him longterm.
I guess I am coming to grips that there's really not that many upgrades to Ludwick available. The Tribe supposedly wants a king's ransom for Choo. I can't blame them for that, but a Ludwick in the hand is worth more than a Choo in the bush.

Having Ludwick for 2 years gives us time to find a young 3b/LF (or develop one from the farm) to eventually replace Ludwick..
Walt seems very methodical.. Having Broxton and Ludwick resigned and checked off the shopping list will then give him time to shop for a potential CF help, address the bench, and add a lefty for the bullpen. I think if the LF situation is not solved quickly, those other "needs" will suffer.

I also like the fact that Ludwick is not a budget buster. Having him signed might help make progress in signing Latos/Bailey to those rumored longterm deals as well.. If we signed Victorino or someone like that, that's a drain on the money to extend the core team.. Hopefully the Red Sox will fill up their roster soon and stop driving up the prices..

mattfeet
12-05-2012, 02:27 PM
Mike Puma ‏@NYPost_Mets

Mets liked Ryan Ludwick, but with him returning to Cincy it's "back to the drawing board," according to Mets official.
Retweeted by Mo Egger

kaldaniels
12-05-2012, 02:34 PM
Good summary Votto. The Reds aren't in a "we have to win right now" mode. Our window is really 3-4 years at least. It's not the time to do something drastic that is a one year move.

It simply boils down to the above. The core is set. Maybe my expectations are low, but I figure this team is set to make the playoffs 2 of the next 3 years (face it, bad seasons do happen and this club is not exempt from them) and I can live with that. Improve when possible, but there really aren't any make or break moves that have to be made at this point.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 02:42 PM
Reds don't have the money, and they're set with Frazier at 3B, especially since it looks like Ludwick is signed for LF. But I read on MLBTR that Youkilis wants to play for only contending teams.

Hmmmmmmm.

Tempting. But pricetag too high, I'm sure.

With A-Roid's injury situation, I'm betting Yanks are his destination.

REDREAD
12-05-2012, 03:51 PM
Reds don't have the money, and they're set with Frazier at 3B, especially since it looks like Ludwick is signed for LF. But I read on MLBTR that Youkilis wants to play for only contending teams.

Hmmmmmmm.

Tempting. But pricetag too high, I'm sure.

With A-Roid's injury situation, I'm betting Yanks are his destination.

I guess I just don't get the appeal of Youkillis.
His last 2 seasons, ops.. 833, 745.. He's not a superstar anymore.
He can't play 1b or DH here.. He's not a great glove at 3b either.

Vottomatic
12-05-2012, 04:21 PM
I guess I just don't get the appeal of Youkillis.
His last 2 seasons, ops.. 833, 745.. He's not a superstar anymore.
He can't play 1b or DH here.. He's not a great glove at 3b either.

I agree he's on the decline.

I guess the only reason I'd even consider it, if I would, is his veteran postseason experience, and he's a hometown guy.

Other than that, I agree with what you're saying.

Sometimes, playing in front of your hometown crowd makes an athlete do more. But then again, maybe not.

RedsManRick
12-05-2012, 04:22 PM
I guess I just don't get the appeal of Youkillis.
His last 2 seasons, ops.. 833, 745.. He's not a superstar anymore.
He can't play 1b or DH here.. He's not a great glove at 3b either.

I'd say the appeal is three-fold;

1. We're dreaming (to some extent) that he can recapture 2008-2010
2. Even if he never gets that slugging back, he still gets on base
3. He's a local

That said, I agree that he'd be a pretty big risk given his defensive shortcomings at 3B in particular. However, his low AVG last year was in large part due to a low BABIP that doesn't seem to reflect a real skill regression.

I'd project him as a 3 win player next year.

REDREAD
12-05-2012, 04:48 PM
I'd say the appeal is three-fold;

1. We're dreaming (to some extent) that he can recapture 2008-2010
2. Even if he never gets that slugging back, he still gets on base
3. He's a local

That said, I agree that he'd be a pretty big risk given his defensive shortcomings at 3B in particular. However, his low AVG last year was in large part due to a low BABIP that doesn't seem to reflect a real skill regression.

I'd project him as a 3 win player next year.

Makes sense, but let's assume Ludwick is resigned.
I'd rather put the Youkills money towards another reliever and/or bench help.
I think I have more hope Frasier only slightly regresses from last year than hope that Youkills re-finds the magic.

I guess I also believe that in some cases, a low BABIP means the hitter's skill has declined too. Now, in all fairness, I didn't see Youkills play last year, so I can't make a fair judgement. I guess I just don't like to pin my hopes on a player based on BABIP (That's just a personal thing, not dissing the stat).

His last 3 years of OBP are 411, 373, 336.. but that does track with his declining batting average. I agree that he still has his batting eye.

Tom Servo
12-06-2012, 05:58 PM
NASHVILLE, Tenn. ó Ryan Ludwick is apparently deciding something that you and I will never have to decide: Whether itís wise to turn down an extra million bucks or so to play for the Reds.

Ludwick has a two-year offer from the Reds believed to be in the $13 to $14 million range. Other teams are offering more. I donít know which teams they are. But, money aside, the Reds have a lot to offer Ludwick. The team won 97 games last year and looks like it will be a strong contender again in 2013.

I'm beginning to think we may have to plan for life after Ludwick.

Phhhl
12-06-2012, 06:25 PM
There have been two things wrong with this offense for the last 3-4 years, leadoff hitter and a run producing right handed hitting masher to hit between Votto and Bruce. Ludwick finally solved one of these dilemnas last year, so just give him the 3 mil and be done with it. Refrain from signing Scott Rolen, some has been middle infield "wizard" and some 38 year old backup catcher and bring Ludwick back already. The system is stocked with guys that can fill the fringe roles the Reds so often waste their money on.

Surely the money is there to get this done. I am going to feel cheated if I don't get to see a healthy Votto hitting in front of that guy and Bruce next year. Without making a trade, there is nobody like Ludwick left out there and we'll be looking at going into next season with the same old offensive bugaboos that have been haunting us forever.

RedEye
12-06-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm so tired of everyone talking about how the hitter b/t Joey and Jay needs to be RH. Do the splits of those two hitters mean nothing?

RANDY IN INDY
12-06-2012, 07:44 PM
As good as Votto and Bruce are, there are some left-handed pitchers that are just nasty. It makes perfect sense to have a strong right handed hitter in-between them.

Phhhl
12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
I'm so tired of everyone talking about how the hitter b/t Joey and Jay needs to be RH. Do the splits of those two hitters mean nothing?

The splits don't mean much to Dusty, so you will probably never see Votto and Bruce hit back to back. But, splits aside, Ludwick is just a very solid power hitter in the middle of the lineup that makes this team quite a bit better than it is without him.

Nathan
12-06-2012, 09:04 PM
I'm so tired of everyone talking about how the hitter b/t Joey and Jay needs to be RH. Do the splits of those two hitters mean nothing?

Dustyism: Votto and Bruce can't hit back to back because they are leftys. It would make it easier to bring in a LOOGY to face them. :confused:

RedEye
12-06-2012, 09:05 PM
The splits don't mean much to Dusty, so you will probably never see Votto and Bruce hit back to back. But, splits aside, Ludwick is just a very solid power hitter in the middle of the lineup that makes this team quite a bit better than it is without him.

Oh, I agree with you there. I guess I just don't necessarily think Dusty's right about needing to split up Bruce and Votto. It should be about how players hit LH and RH pitchers - or even individual matchups - and not what side a guy hits from. I think Ludwick is an asset to the team whether he hits 4th, 5th or 6th.

Phhhl
12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
I just don't want to see a 97 win baseball team take a step backwards by cheaping out here. Retain Ludwick and trade or scavenge for a platoon partner for Stubbs and/or Heisey while we wait for Hamilton. Phillips can be productive hitting leadoff for a while, if need be. The pitching is pretty much there, with depth. Just don't be left wondering what might have been when we are sitting in the middle of July and Joey Votto already has 120 base on balls. Not over chump change.

757690
12-06-2012, 11:24 PM
The splits don't mean much to Dusty, so you will probably never see Votto and Bruce hit back to back. But, splits aside, Ludwick is just a very solid power hitter in the middle of the lineup that makes this team quite a bit better than it is without him.

Baker has hit Votto and Bruce back to back in literally hundreds of games. If there is a decent RH bat available, Dusty will use him, otherwise, he bats them back to back.

757690
12-06-2012, 11:28 PM
Total guess on my part, but I think Ludwick will sign with the Reds. He probably was about to agree, then saw all outrageous contracts handed out, and thought if waited a bit, he could get a bit more from the Reds. He just seemed to be very happy as a Red, and I can't see him leaving them over a 10% difference in offers.

FlightRick
12-06-2012, 11:57 PM
More to the point: I'd be fairly upset if the Reds let him leave over a 10% difference in offers.

This is predicated on the rumors being true, and the Reds' offer being a 2-year, $14m deal. I think that's a great deal, because the money is fair and (more importantly) the years are right. It'd be insanity to not meet him halfway (5% or $700,000 per year), if you think he really is fond of playing in Cinci... and it'd still be kinda upsetting if the extra 10%/$1.4m per year (on a measly two-year contract) was somehow the reason why the deal didn't get done.

If we start having to compete against a 3-year offer? That's when I tighten up a bit.


Rick

Superdude
12-07-2012, 12:04 AM
More to the point: I'd be fairly upset if the Reds let him leave over a 10% difference in offers.

Especially considering they just spent 21 million on a 300 pound reliever without blinking. Unless Walt has one heck of a contingency plan, I don't know why they wouldn't just drop another dollar on the table and make this an easy decision.

Griffey012
12-07-2012, 12:16 AM
I have read most but not all of this thread, but am I the only one afraid or resigning Ludwick? If we give him 8 million a year and he poops, we are stuck with a black hole in LF. To me CF is more important of a spot to fill, because it is easier to find a reclamation project like Ludwick (last years version) that can play LF.

Hitting gold with a guy and then overpaying to keep him reminds me way to much of the mid 2000's. In this new and improved era, I think we move on.

REDREAD
12-07-2012, 12:18 AM
Dustyism: Votto and Bruce can't hit back to back because they are leftys. It would make it easier to bring in a LOOGY to face them. :confused:

What Dusty is doing makes sense. There's only 2 LH hitters in the lineup. Why would you bat them back to back when you have RH options. Heck, Phillips has benefited a few times from this. He's gotten to face a lefty reliever because the opposing team wants to leave the LH in the game for Bruce on deck..
It's not like it's burned us.. There's not that much of difference in whether Philips/Bruce bats 4 or 5th..

REDREAD
12-07-2012, 12:22 AM
I agree with everyone that I don't want to lose Ludwick over a million or two.
The problem is that it might be more complicated than that.
I could see a team like the Mets willing to top any offer the Reds present.
If the Reds bump to 10/year.. the Mets go 12.. for example.

Ludwick probably has plenty of interest out there. This might be his last contract. Hopefully he's just thinking it over.
I'd have no problem giving him 2/20 if that's what it takes, even if that means the Reds are totally tapped out and have to have no 2nd lefty in the bullpen and the two backup infielders are horrible.

RedLegsToday
12-07-2012, 06:58 AM
two backup infielders are horrible.


Are there other kinds of backup infielders? ;)

RedEye
12-07-2012, 08:17 AM
What Dusty is doing makes sense. There's only 2 LH hitters in the lineup. Why would you bat them back to back when you have RH options. Heck, Phillips has benefited a few times from this. He's gotten to face a lefty reliever because the opposing team wants to leave the LH in the game for Bruce on deck..
It's not like it's burned us.. There's not that much of difference in whether Philips/Bruce bats 4 or 5th..

It's not that I mind batting a RH like Ludwick b/t Votto and Bruce when one is available. What I have a problem with is narrow-casting the team's search for a hitter based on the idea that we "need a strong RH bat to slot b/t Bruce and Votto." If the guy is already on the team, great. But if you are trying to build a successful roster, it is appropriate to recognize that these two guys are LH hitters who don't have splits that necessarily warrant needing a RH b/t them. I assume that Walt is thinking this way, but if he isn't, I find it rather frustrating.

Steve4192
12-07-2012, 08:25 AM
Are there other kinds of backup infielders? ;)

The Reds have two very solid backup infielders, they'll just be playing at Louisville (HRod and Gregorius). Those guys will be covering any any extended absence from the infield starters. There is also still a chance Walt will be able to coax Rolen out of retirement and utilize Frazier in the super-sub role again.

_Sir_Charles_
12-07-2012, 08:41 AM
and the two backup infielders are horrible.

Just out of curiosity, who are these 2 horrible backup infielders? Do you mean Cairo and Valdez? They're both gone. Right now it looks to be Didi and either Rolen or a rookie.

cincrazy
12-07-2012, 09:03 AM
There have been two things wrong with this offense for the last 3-4 years, leadoff hitter and a run producing right handed hitting masher to hit between Votto and Bruce. Ludwick finally solved one of these dilemnas last year, so just give him the 3 mil and be done with it. Refrain from signing Scott Rolen, some has been middle infield "wizard" and some 38 year old backup catcher and bring Ludwick back already. The system is stocked with guys that can fill the fringe roles the Reds so often waste their money on.

Surely the money is there to get this done. I am going to feel cheated if I don't get to see a healthy Votto hitting in front of that guy and Bruce next year. Without making a trade, there is nobody like Ludwick left out there and we'll be looking at going into next season with the same old offensive bugaboos that have been haunting us forever.

You really wanna give that much money to a leftfielder in his mid-30s who had a great 3 months last year, but outside of that has had a terrible last four years or so? I like Ludwick. I want him back. But ONLY at our price. If not, move on.

jhu1321
12-07-2012, 09:14 AM
You really wanna give that much money to a leftfielder in his mid-30s who had a great 3 months last year, but outside of that has had a terrible last four years or so? I like Ludwick. I want him back. But ONLY at our price. If not, move on.

I think Walt agrees with this sentiment and hasn't budged despite the crazy market for outfielders....... nor should he.

Dan
12-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, who are these 2 horrible backup infielders? Do you mean Cairo and Valdez? They're both gone. Right now it looks to be Didi and either Rolen or a rookie.

I think HRod would work out in that backup role too. Actually I'd prefer him and Didi over Rolen. I'd love Rolen coming in as a coach. Maybe even groomed for manager when Dusty retires/is fired.

lidspinner
12-07-2012, 09:23 AM
I think Walt agrees with this sentiment and hasn't budged despite the crazy market for outfielders....... nor should he.

I think this is where Walt has to use the Billy Beane moneyball theory.....you have to look at his position and what production you could get from a cheaper rookie or vet......it seems to me we are trying to build this team around pitching and defense....if thats the case does RL really bring that good of a defense to the table to where you have to overpay for his services? could you toss in a solid defense guy out there but give up a little in offense and still help this team? thats the angle that Walt is looking at I am sure......I hope we start seeing a bigger trend of getting younger guys up to the big club quicker, we dont want a squad full of these guys but if saving the RL money and using a cheaper LF'er allows us to add more pitching or add a better CF'er then I say you have to do it......

Bumstead
12-07-2012, 09:41 AM
Time to move on. I don't understand why we would want to invest 2 years into a 34 year old OF that has had 1 decent season out of the last 5 years. Isn't Nick Swisher out there? If you are going to pay a guy in their 30's for 2 years, I would rather it be on someone that is relatively consistently solid.

Bum

REDREAD
12-07-2012, 09:50 AM
Just out of curiosity, who are these 2 horrible backup infielders? Do you mean Cairo and Valdez? They're both gone. Right now it looks to be Didi and either Rolen or a rookie.

I was just saying , hypothetically, if spending a little more on Ludwick meant we had no money to replace Valdez/Cario and had to use people making minimum salary, I'd be ok with that.
I don't want Didi on the roster next year, I want him in AAA if he's a legit future starter.

Rolen is a good example.. Maybe giving Ludwick extra money means we have nothing left to give Rolen. I'm ok with that.

klw
12-07-2012, 10:21 AM
Kevin Youkilis must decide whether to accept a two-year, $18MM contract to play for Terry Francona and the Indians or take a one-year, $12MM deal to play for the Yankees, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney writes (on Twitter).
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#FPSKQsGo07uAjUGW.99

This is the sort of rumor that must be giving Mr. Ludwick pause as he makes his choice.

Kc61
12-07-2012, 10:23 AM
The Reds should sign Ludwick even for slightly more money.

They should sign a platoon CF to play against righties.

They should sign at least one solid utility infielder. They do exist.

They should sign a lefty reliever to fill out the bullpen.

Folks who think this is too much to ask are living in the non-contender years.

This is a modest list. The Reds are contenders. The scrap heap days should be over.

I am not saying they should take on Juston Upton's salary. But Ludwick, a platoon CF, and two backup players is a fair expectation for a contender in the off-season.

Steve4192
12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
Just out of curiosity, who are these 2 horrible backup infielders? Do you mean Cairo and Valdez? They're both gone. Right now it looks to be Didi and either Rolen or a rookie.

I don't want Didi or HRod on the bench in Cincinnati. I want them playing every day in Louisville and getting called up in the event of a DL stint for one of the big league starters. Neither of those guys showed they are ready to leave AAA behind yet. They both need to prove they can dominate at that level before they get the call to the majors.

PuffyPig
12-07-2012, 11:25 AM
The Reds should sign Ludwick even for slightly more money.

They should sign a platoon CF to play against righties.

They should sign at least one solid utility infielder. They do exist.

They should sign a lefty reliever to fill out the bullpen.

Folks who think this is too much to ask are living in the non-contender years.

This is a modest list. The Reds are contenders. The scrap heap days should be over.

I am not saying they should take on Juston Upton's salary. But Ludwick, a platoon CF, and two backup players is a fair expectation for a contender in the off-season.

Boom.

M2
12-07-2012, 11:36 AM
Folks who think this is too much to ask are living in the non-contender years.

This is a modest list. The Reds are contenders. The scrap heap days should be over.

I agree with the sentiment. if anything, it's even a little too conservative a list. Ludwick was a nice surprise last season, but I'm not sure he's got a repeat of it in him. I'd like to see the team's main position player move be someone better than Ludwick. Then, even if Ludwick comes back, the Reds have some added cushion in case Ludwick slumps.

klw
12-07-2012, 04:03 PM
Time to move on. I don't understand why we would want to invest 2 years into a 34 year old OF that has had 1 decent season out of the last 5 years. Isn't Nick Swisher out there? If you are going to pay a guy in their 30's for 2 years, I would rather it be on someone that is relatively consistently solid.

Bum

Do you still want Swisher?


While the Indians are hoping to sign Swisher to a four-year deal in the $48-50MM range, his market has shifted and he might now command a four-year, $60MM contract, Jim Bowden of ESPN.com and MLB Network Radio reports (on Twitter).
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/indians-continue-pursuing-youkilis-swisher.html#FZ2B7D2QbHYbjvTf.99

Benihana
12-07-2012, 04:10 PM
What's great about one year of Bourn is the Reds don't give up any prospects (they could still use to trade for Myers who is locked up long term and won't cost much payroll) and then we could give Bourn a qualifying offer in the offseason, which he'll surely turn down in order to get his long term deal. More draft picks for us.

On second thought, signing him does mean forfeiting a pick this year as he turned down his qualifying offer from the Braves.

PuffyPig
12-07-2012, 04:14 PM
On second thought, signing him does mean forfeiting a pick this year as he turned down his qualifying offer from the Braves.

The team signing Bourne forfeits a pick because was Bourne was given a qualifying offer. If he had accepted, he wouldn't be a FA.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 04:31 PM
The team signing Bourne forfeits a pick because was Bourne was given a qualifying offer. If he had accepted, he wouldn't be a FA.

Yes, I know that. So my point about gaining a pick next year is negated by the fact that we would lose a pick this year. I was just thinking out loud sequentially.

mattfeet
12-07-2012, 05:02 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#reds getting closer on Ludwick. Not done yet.

The Voice of IH
12-07-2012, 05:13 PM
It's done, Heymen and Rosenthal reporting.

And now Rosenthal going back on his tweet. Deal is not done. says that it will get done barring any stunning reversal. Good Lord.

https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/277174406608982016

Gallen5862
12-07-2012, 05:16 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds To Sign Ryan Ludwick
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 7 at 4:07pm CST]
The Reds agreed to sign Ryan Ludwick, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter). John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer first reported the Reds were making progress toward a deal with the BHSC client.

The Reds made the free agent outfielder a two-year two-year offer earlier in the week, but Fay reported that at least one other club was being more aggressive on Ludwick. The 34-year-old posted a .275/.346/.531 batting line with 26 home runs in 472 plate appearances for the Reds this past season.

Ludwick ranked 26th on MLBTR's list of top 50 free agents with MLBTR's Tim Dierkes correctly predicting that he would re-sign with the Reds.


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#RDk0P4TAdqfthe4t.99

WVPacman
12-07-2012, 05:18 PM
JIM BOWDEN‏@JimBowdenESPNxm

How is the best way to celebrate Redsfest? announce the resigning of Ryan Ludwick which the Reds have just done

mattfeet
12-07-2012, 05:19 PM
Nice!

mattfeet
12-07-2012, 05:22 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Hearing Ludwick deal is done. Won't be official until physical

SidneySlicker
12-07-2012, 05:24 PM
Awesome now deal for Fowler and we are set.

The Voice of IH
12-07-2012, 05:25 PM
Awesome now deal for Fowler and we are set.

yes.

Tom Servo
12-07-2012, 05:27 PM
Nice job, Fay.

The Voice of IH
12-07-2012, 05:29 PM
Nice job, Fay.

Yeah,

I excuse Fay for not breaking news because I don't think that is a top priority of his job, but he did a nice job on this one.

Homer Bailey
12-07-2012, 05:30 PM
Sheldon says he's hearing it's not done, and the reports are not accurate.

I love twitter, but man, I really hate it sometimes.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Now question is - what is the over/under on good deal bad deal? Assuming it's 2 years:

I've always said I wouldn't do more than $15MM. A penny over that and I would rather trade for a bopper. Hopefully it will be less (I think it will be).

klw
12-07-2012, 05:37 PM
I am hearing that it is done pending the parties agreeing on terms, a physical, his not signing with another team, and an official announcement on whether it is done or done with or just close.

cinreds21
12-07-2012, 05:40 PM
OK, so assuming Ludwick is two years, why go out and acquire Fowler when Billy will be up in September. Sign Ichiro to be your leadoff man and call it a off-season (outfield wise.)

Wonderful Monds
12-07-2012, 05:42 PM
Sheldon says he's hearing it's not done, and the reports are not accurate.

I love twitter, but man, I really hate it sometimes.

Sheldon doesn't have the stones to report it until the physical is done.

traderumor
12-07-2012, 05:58 PM
I am hearing that it is done pending the parties agreeing on terms, a physical, his not signing with another team, and an official announcement on whether it is done or done with or just close.I hear its years and dollars holding things up.

edabbs44
12-07-2012, 06:01 PM
Sources telling me that this is a done deal, pending it being completed.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 06:05 PM
OK, so assuming Ludwick is two years, why go out and acquire Fowler when Billy will be up in September. Sign Ichiro to be your leadoff man and call it a off-season (outfield wise.)

Or sign Bourn.

Tom Servo
12-07-2012, 06:16 PM
I'm hearing that the deal may or may not be done. More later. Or maybe not.

Matt700wlw
12-07-2012, 06:18 PM
Walt just said on the radio that it's very close, hopefully early next week (2 year deal).

In other words, it's done, but he hasn't taken a physical yet.

Blitz Dorsey
12-07-2012, 06:35 PM
Is Mark Sheldon's typewriter broke? That guy's new nickname is "Day Late, Dollar Short Sheldon."

Does he have email? Has he heard of the company Apple?

Mark, if you are reading this on your Commodore 64, it's time to upgrade, bud.

corkedbat
12-07-2012, 07:24 PM
Is Mark Sheldon's typewriter broke? That guy's new nickname is "Day Late, Dollar Short Sheldon."

Does he have email? Has he heard of the company Apple?

Mark, if you are reading this on your Commodore 64, it's time to upgrade, bud.

Good news! Now look at bolstering center.

Michael Bourn (not likely)
Jacoby Ellsbury (more likely, but not much)
Dexter Fowler
Coco Crisp
Gerardo Parra
David DeJesus

If Bruce to CF were a possibility:

Justin Upton
Shin-Soo Choo
Michael Morse

Gallen5862
12-07-2012, 07:24 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/12/07/ryan-ludwick-re-signs-with-reds/

Ryan Ludwick re-signs with Reds

According to John Fay, the Reds have re-signed OF Ryan Ludwick pending a physical.

Ludwick hit .275/.346/.531 with 26 home runs and 80 RBI this year.

It is unknown as of now the details of the contract.

Gallen5862
12-07-2012, 07:40 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds To Sign Ryan Ludwick
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 7 at 6:28pm CST]
6:28pm: The contract is for two years plus a mutual option for 2015, tweets John Fay.


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#k4sLyKQv046Fv7jx.99

Benihana
12-08-2012, 11:10 AM
Now question is - what is the over/under on good deal bad deal? Assuming it's 2 years:

I've always said I wouldn't do more than $15MM. A penny over that and I would rather trade for a bopper. Hopefully it will be less (I think it will be).


SATURDAY, 9:56am: It's a two-year contract worth $15MM, reports Heyman (on Twitter).


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#WTX3DxcaO0Fml8G5.99

Man I'm good :p

mattfeet
12-08-2012, 11:11 AM
I've got no problem with that. Seems like a good deal for both sides.

Matt

Reds Fanatic
12-08-2012, 12:18 PM
Great news. That is a good deal at $15M for 2 years.

hebroncougar
12-08-2012, 12:58 PM
Man.........Ludwick for 2.5 more per season than Gomes. I thought he'd get more.

oneupper
12-08-2012, 01:04 PM
Man.........Ludwick for 2.5 more per season than Gomes. I thought he'd get more.

So did I. It's nice to be wrong sometimes.

M2
12-08-2012, 01:05 PM
IMO, the best way to look at this contract is as a back-loaded deal. The Reds just signed Ludwick for $12 million in 2013. If he earns that then whatever he delivers for $3 million in 2014 is gravy. The key is next year. The Reds need an .800+ OPS from him.

RedEye
12-08-2012, 01:14 PM
Let's just hope he doesn't turn back into a pumpkin now.

Crumbley
12-08-2012, 01:37 PM
Let's just hope he doesn't turn back into a pumpkin now.
He was a fine hitter until being exiled to San Diego. Upon escaping, he kept on hitting. I'm more worried about aging than him not being able to hit.

RedEye
12-08-2012, 01:38 PM
He was a fine hitter until being exiled to San Diego. Upon escaping, he kept on hitting. I'm more worried about aging than him not being able to hit.

Sometimes age turns people into pumpkins, too.

mdccclxix
12-08-2012, 01:42 PM
Ludwick needs just enough days off to keep the 4th and 5th OF fresh.

dunner13
12-08-2012, 01:57 PM
Considering that Shane Victoriano just got paid 39M for 3 years I think this is a great deal. To get a solid LF who can hit 25-30 HRs a year under 10M a year is a steal compared to what a lot of teams are having to pay for outfielders.

RedEye
12-08-2012, 02:02 PM
Considering that Shane Victoriano just got paid 39M for 3 years I think this is a great deal. To get a solid LF who can hit 25-30 HRs a year under 10M a year is a steal compared to what a lot of teams are having to pay for outfielders.

I would agree with that, absolutely. I think Ludwick is a huge upgrade over Gomes. I have no idea what Cherington is doing over there in Boston. I suppose he's got more money to play with though, so he can take more risks.

Vottomatic
12-08-2012, 02:36 PM
LOL. I came here to see if there were any updates, and the Fowler thread happened to be above this one. And for an instant, I thought there was a deal for Fowler.

Did my second take and nada.

powersackers
12-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Now we are tied to Stubbs until Hamilton is ready.

Caveman Techie
12-08-2012, 02:46 PM
Now we are tied to Stubbs until Hamilton is ready.

How so?

Caveat Emperor
12-08-2012, 02:49 PM
For the record, I'm fine with this deal. Ludwick was a solid producer, decent defender, and good clubhouse presence.

Given the insane money being thrown around this offseason, this deal is actually fairly reasonable -- especially considering the alternative options weren't attractive at all.

powersackers
12-08-2012, 03:21 PM
How so?

Because that's what ESPN.com says. Tend to agree our budget won't allow for a FA in CF. Trade could do it. So we'll see.

marcshoe
12-08-2012, 03:26 PM
Many of the cf options aren't free agents. I'm not sure which ones, other than Bourn, this might preclude. It shouldn't affect the pursuit of Fowler, De Aza, or Parra, for instance.

Kc61
12-08-2012, 04:19 PM
This is a good deal. If Reds went into open market for a new cleanup hitter, they would have given up more money and maybe prospects in a trade.

IMO it is now MORE likely they make a modest CF acquisition.

Reds can't be far off budget, Ludwick cost what should have been expected, give or take a modest amount.

_Sir_Charles_
12-08-2012, 04:24 PM
Considering that Shane Victoriano just got paid 39M for 3 years I think this is a great deal. To get a solid LF who can hit 25-30 HRs a year under 10M a year is a steal compared to what a lot of teams are having to pay for outfielders.

This is true....IF Ludwick hits like last year and gets around 25-30 hr's. Considering that last season he hit 26, in '08 he hit 37, and only hit in the 20's one other season (22 in '09)...I think planning on him going for 25-30 is a bit overly optimistic.

'07 .818 ops / 14 hr
'08 .966 ops / 37 hr
'09 .775 ops / 22 hr
'10 .743 ops / 17 hr
'11 .674 ops / 13 hr
'12 .877 ops / 26 hr

I'd love to think he's turned back around, but after 3 straight seasons of trending downwards RAPIDLY, I'm not holding my breath.

That being said, I still like the signing. Just not expecting a repeat season.

George Anderson
12-08-2012, 04:28 PM
Last night at story time in the kids section, Chris Heisey came across as kinda being in a bad mood. Now I think I know why.

Far East
12-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Last night at story time in the kids section, Chris Heisey came across as kinda being in a bad mood. Now I think I know why.

Highly subjective, but after watching Heisey and Ludwick on defense for a year, my opinion is that Chris is a better center fielder than Ryan could ever be, but that Ryan is just as good a left fielder as Chris.

Jefferson24
12-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Last night at story time in the kids section, Chris Heisey came across as kinda being in a bad mood. Now I think I know why.

He had his chance last spring to earn that spot and did nothing with the opportunity. Sometimes you only get a chance or two to make your case. He may have let his slip away.

corkedbat
12-08-2012, 05:45 PM
If Heisey really is unhappy with his situatiom, maybe he should introduce the ball to the bat in the strike zone on a more regular basis.

George Anderson
12-08-2012, 05:53 PM
If Heisey really is unhappy with his situatiom, maybe he should introduce the ball to the bat in the strike zone on a more regular basis.

We heard Heisey, Pedro Villareal and Ryan Hannigan read stories and all seemed happy to be there and stuck around a long time to sign autographs. Heisey read the story kinda like he had to, signed like 2 autographs and walked away quickly. Kinda like he was in a bad mood.

Two of the biggest jerks in Reds history wore #14 and #5 so it isn't a big deal to me if an athlete is a pompous jerk but I could definitely tell Heisey was in not to good of a mood.

However I probally would not of been in to good of a mood either had the situation been the same for me.

Always Red
12-08-2012, 06:00 PM
He had his chance last spring to earn that spot and did nothing with the opportunity. Sometimes you only get a chance or two to make your case. He may have let his slip away.

Heisey himself admitted that on Mo's show on Friday that he has only himself to blame. The job was his to take and he knew he didn't rise to the occasion.

He also said he was going to be a school teacher before the Reds signed him, and probably will be when he's done playing ball, and really enjoyed reading to the kids last year, and was looking forward to it this year.

Also, I believe that Jay Bruce is getting married tonight in Texas, and many Reds were hurrying to get there, for what it's worth.

Then again, maybe he is a jerk, I have no idea! :laugh:

KoryMac5
12-08-2012, 06:07 PM
Sometimes a bad day is just that a bad day. Hopefully this one is out of Heisey's system. Glad to have Ludwick back in the fold.

Benihana
12-08-2012, 06:08 PM
Heisey is a good guy and a great 4th OF. Nothing more nothing less.

_Sir_Charles_
12-08-2012, 09:07 PM
We heard Heisey, Pedro Villareal and Ryan Hannigan read stories and all seemed happy to be there and stuck around a long time to sign autographs. Heisey read the story kinda like he had to, signed like 2 autographs and walked away quickly. Kinda like he was in a bad mood.

Two of the biggest jerks in Reds history wore #14 and #5 so it isn't a big deal to me if an athlete is a pompous jerk but I could definitely tell Heisey was in not to good of a mood.

However I probally would not of been in to good of a mood either had the situation been the same for me.

I never would've believed that about Bench until I met him. You're unfortunately right. He was BY FAR my favorite...until I met him.

As for Pete, his public persona and him one-on-one are two totally different things from my personal experience. Pete was kind, friendly, generous with his time...totally the opposite of what you'd expect. And he has been that same way with me each time I've met him (around a half dozen times...all before the incident).

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2012, 09:30 PM
Nice deal for the Reds. I'm glad to have Ludwick back.

WildcatFan
12-09-2012, 01:55 PM
The signing pretty much cements the 2013 lineup, unless we get shocked by a CF deal in the next month.

Phillips 2b
Cozart SS
Votto 1b
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3b
Stubbs CF
Hanigan/Mes C
P

I'm sure ill gripe about it at some point during the season, but for now, ill take it. Here's hoping Cozart takes a big step forward, Frazier and Luddy maintain their 2012 success, and the bats are more than enough to complement the lights-out rotation on the way to another division title.

Always Red
12-09-2012, 02:03 PM
I never would've believed that about Bench until I met him. You're unfortunately right. He was BY FAR my favorite...until I met him.

As for Pete, his public persona and him one-on-one are two totally different things from my personal experience. Pete was kind, friendly, generous with his time...totally the opposite of what you'd expect. And he has been that same way with me each time I've met him (around a half dozen times...all before the incident).

I had the opposite experience with Bench; I heard what a jerk he was, but when I met him about 5 years ago at a sports stag, he was great- funny, made eye contact, shook hands, made small talk. I asked him who threw the hardest of any Reds pitcher during his time, and he didn't hesitate- "Wayne Simpson wore me out."

I've also met Rose a few times in the past, as part of a small group, and Pete was just as you described. The man just loves to talk about baseball. It's a shame his inner demons caused him to make so many poor decisions. He could have been baseball's greatest ambassador.

Kc61
12-09-2012, 02:25 PM
The signing pretty much cements the 2013 lineup, unless we get shocked by a CF deal in the next month.

Phillips 2b
Cozart SS
Votto 1b
Ludwick LF
Bruce RF
Frazier 3b
Stubbs CF
Hanigan/Mes C
P

I'm sure ill gripe about it at some point during the season, but for now, ill take it. Here's hoping Cozart takes a big step forward, Frazier and Luddy maintain their 2012 success, and the bats are more than enough to complement the lights-out rotation on the way to another division title.

I would find this lineup very disappointing. Against RHP it would present the same problems as the last two years. It would add nothing to last years mix, except Frazier for Rolen.

Phillips almost never walks, he is not a lead off man. With Cozart and Stubbs there are two OBP holes.

The Reds must add a guy who gets on base against righties, even a platoon man. Then Stubbs can sit against righties and Cozart can drop lower in the order.

The need is so crystal clear I, for one, would be unhappy if it doesn't get addressed.

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2012, 02:54 PM
I had the opposite experience with Bench; I heard what a jerk he was, but when I met him about 5 years ago at a sports stag, he was great- funny, made eye contact, shook hands, made small talk. I asked him who threw the hardest of any Reds pitcher during his time, and he didn't hesitate- "Wayne Simpson wore me out."

I've also met Rose a few times in the past, as part of a small group, and Pete was just as you described. The man just loves to talk about baseball. It's a shame his inner demons caused him to make so many poor decisions. He could have been baseball's greatest ambassador.

Great to hear you had positive experiences. I only met JB once and it was pretty crushing for a kid to hear him say "get the hell away from me kid". All I was doing is asking for an autograph. I waited for him to finish talking to who he was with respectfully, and asked "Mr. Bench" politely...and got that response. It certainly knocked him down a bunch of pegs in my pecking order. And I agree with you 100% on Pete.

hebroncougar
12-09-2012, 02:55 PM
I would find this lineup very disappointing. Against RHP it would present the same problems as the last two years. It would add nothing to last years mix, except Frazier for Rolen.

Phillips almost never walks, he is not a lead off man. With Cozart and Stubbs there are two OBP holes.

The Reds must add a guy who gets on base against righties, even a platoon man. Then Stubbs can sit against righties and Cozart can drop lower in the order.

The need is so crystal clear I, for one, would be unhappy if it doesn't get addressed.

That darn lineup only won 97 games last year. :(

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2012, 02:56 PM
That darn lineup only won 97 games last year. :(

I KNOW! I had 'em pegged for 102. Da bums! :thumbup:

hebroncougar
12-09-2012, 03:01 PM
I KNOW! I had 'em pegged for 102. Da bums! :thumbup:

I agree. This isn't fantasy baseball. The Reds have very little flexibility in terms of payroll. I think the Ludwick deal with what other OF's have gotten was a tremendous deal for the Reds.

Kc61
12-09-2012, 04:42 PM
That darn lineup only won 97 games last year. :(

Look more critically.

Reds played Cubs and Astros about 36 times, two of the worst teams in baseball, and had remarkable pitching health and a Hall of Fame closer performance last season.

The front office can stand pat and hope these things repeat or they can address weaknesses.

IMO they must address the offense with at least a modest addition to the lineup to improve the team OBP.

None of the 97 wins of 2012 carry over to 2013.

hebroncougar
12-09-2012, 04:47 PM
Look more critically.

Reds played Cubs and Astros about 36 times, two of the worst teams in baseball, and had remarkable pitching health and a Hall of Fame closer performance last season.

The front office can stand pat and hope these things repeat or they can address weaknesses.

IMO they must address the offense with at least a modest addition to the lineup to improve the team OBP.

None of the 97 wins of 2012 carry over to 2013.

Votto batting more this year will help that quite a bit. I'll stick with pitching.

Nathan
12-09-2012, 04:52 PM
None of the 97 wins of 2012 carry over to 2013.

And neither do the stats, both negative and positive. We don't know what's in store for next year, and if you are privy to that information, share the lotto numbers with me. ;)

Kc61
12-09-2012, 05:02 PM
And neither do the stats, both negative and positive. We don't know what's in store for next year, and if you are privy to that information, share the lotto numbers with me. ;)

We don't know what is in store, but as a general rule of thumb, sports teams should try to improve the weak spots.

Feel free to argue for sitting still.

And please don't cry poverty, I am not suggesting huge payroll increases.

As for Votto's health, he can't both hit third and lead off.

Patrick Bateman
12-09-2012, 05:30 PM
It really shouldn't be difficult to improve the CF situation, with at least a platoon.

Don't see any reason to think it should not be feasible to improve the club with current constraints. No reason to be happy with the same line-up, especially knowing it was not the primary reason we made the playoffs. Can easily improve the roster without taking away from the staff.

Nathan
12-09-2012, 05:33 PM
We don't know what is in store, but as a general rule of thumb, sports teams should try to improve the weak spots.

Feel free to argue for sitting still.

And please don't cry poverty, I am not suggesting huge payroll increases.

As for Votto's health, he can't both hit third and lead off.

My comment was more tongue in cheek than anything, but, I'm not really seeing much improvement available. All the available CFers and lead-off hitters are more expensive or would require us to rob our strengths for minimal gain. For the most part, I'd pass. I'm comfortable going to battle with what we currently have, if Jocketty does find an improvement somewhere, great, if not, I'm fine with it for now as well.

Always Red
12-09-2012, 06:50 PM
I'd like 2 LH hitters, one who can play CF and possibly platoon, or at least spell Stubbs against guys like Halliday, and one who can play some 3b. Both could be bench players who play a good bit.

And all the pitching you can find. :thumbup:

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2012, 08:03 PM
Look more critically.

Reds played Cubs and Astros about 36 times, two of the worst teams in baseball, and had remarkable pitching health and a Hall of Fame closer performance last season.

The front office can stand pat and hope these things repeat or they can address weaknesses.

IMO they must address the offense with at least a modest addition to the lineup to improve the team OBP.

None of the 97 wins of 2012 carry over to 2013.

Let's not overlook the fact that the other NL teams got to play the Astros and Cubs too. Let's also not overlook that this is a young team that is rapidly approaching their peak years. They should improve naturally IMO. And remember we've gained by subtraction as well with the loss of Cairo/Valdez from the bench.

I agree with you that we need more OBP and batting average (just not at the expense of creating a new problem), but outside of health...I don't foresee much of a dropoff from last season. But because I don't think we'll be as healthy in the starting rotation as last year, that's the reason I DON'T want to trade away our depth (Leake, Corcino/Cingrani, Bailey, etc, etc, etc.)

Blitz Dorsey
12-09-2012, 08:07 PM
IMO, the best way to look at this contract is as a back-loaded deal. The Reds just signed Ludwick for $12 million in 2013. If he earns that then whatever he delivers for $3 million in 2014 is gravy. The key is next year. The Reds need an .800+ OPS from him.

You mean front-loaded deal?

mth123
12-09-2012, 08:18 PM
It really shouldn't be difficult to improve the CF situation, with at least a platoon.

Don't see any reason to think it should not be feasible to improve the club with current constraints. No reason to be happy with the same line-up, especially knowing it was not the primary reason we made the playoffs. Can easily improve the roster without taking away from the staff.

:thumbup:

Kc61
12-09-2012, 08:18 PM
Let's not overlook the fact that the other NL teams got to play the Astros and Cubs too. Let's also not overlook that this is a young team that is rapidly approaching their peak years. They should improve naturally IMO. And remember we've gained by subtraction as well with the loss of Cairo/Valdez from the bench.

I agree with you that we need more OBP and batting average (just not at the expense of creating a new problem), but outside of health...I don't foresee much of a dropoff from last season. But because I don't think we'll be as healthy in the starting rotation as last year, that's the reason I DON'T want to trade away our depth (Leake, Corcino/Cingrani, Bailey, etc, etc, etc.)

Only the NL Central teams played the Cubs and Astros 36 times each. The East and West played them far less often.

As for the Reds improving naturally, these players are humans. Some will get better, some worse, some will stay healthy, some won't.

It all gets addressed by active management.

Top teams don't sit still. The current lead off and CF situations must be addressed and I am confident they will be. This team is not good enough to rest on its laurels. Walt knows this.

Nathan
12-09-2012, 08:21 PM
. The current lead off and CF situations must be addressed and I am confident it will be. This team is not good enough to rest on its laurels. Walt knows this.

Just curious, what do you think it will be, and at what cost? (Realistically)

_Sir_Charles_
12-09-2012, 08:31 PM
Only the NL Central teams played the Cubs and Astros 36 times each. The East and West played them far less often.

This is true, but last time I looked, we still play in the Central and need to win the Central. Do that, and as many have said...the playoffs are a crapshoot.

Kc61
12-09-2012, 08:34 PM
Just curious, what do you think it will be, and at what cost? (Realistically)

Coco Crisp is a possibility. Can't see the A's paying him. If Reds take on his one year seven mill contract, he should cost second tier prospects, not top guys, or maybe for Heisey. Hits righties, good on defense, experienced guy could tutor Hamilton.

I could see Walt doing a Madson one year type deal with Boras for Bourn. I don't think this is nuts if Bourn doesn't like his longer term offers.

Both players would cost some dough but the contract is a one year fix. No longer commitment.

If they are too rich, I could see Nyger Morgan. Had a bad 2012 but usually hits righties. Could platoon with Stubbs or Heisey. Would be a cheap free agent. Could see a trade for Eric Young Jr. Rockies might want young pitching, might be tough to find a match, but he improved last season.

I started a thread called Centerfield 2013, it lists a whole number of possibilities beyond these.
Key is a guy who plays the position and gets on base against righties. Powerhouse not required.

I don't see Fowler who would probably require a big return. Guessing they won't land him. The Chisox have another guy, D'aza, I think he may cost too many prospects. Bosox might want too much for Ellsbury, an injury risk.

Parra of the Dbacks is interesting, might cost Gregorius. Don't know if Reds would do that, but they might. With Hamilton coming, wouldn't necessarily give up Didi for CF, but Reds might if they like Parra. Dbacks might covet Didi.

DeJesus is another possibility, there really are a bunch of CFers who hit lefty on the market or possibly so. I wouldn't give up a ton with Billy on the way, but lots of possible guys.

HeatherC1212
12-09-2012, 10:05 PM
Heisey himself admitted that on Mo's show on Friday that he has only himself to blame. The job was his to take and he knew he didn't rise to the occasion.

He also said he was going to be a school teacher before the Reds signed him, and probably will be when he's done playing ball, and really enjoyed reading to the kids last year, and was looking forward to it this year.

Also, I believe that Jay Bruce is getting married tonight in Texas, and many Reds were hurrying to get there, for what it's worth.

Then again, maybe he is a jerk, I have no idea! :laugh:

FYI: Jay Bruce got married last weekend and yes I know this for sure because I know some people and I've actually seen pictures. ;) (He and his now wife looked ADORABLE and I also heard Joey and Drew were in the wedding while several of his teammates were all in attendance.)

And Chris Heisey is NOT a jerk. I've met him several times and he is a very genuine and sweet person. Something very well could have been bothering him at the time and he didn't want to spread that to anyone else (I've done that before....get myself out of a situation when I know I'm going to bring everyone else down) or he may have been bummed out about the Ludwick news. Who knows but I do know that he was in town for several days prior to Redsfest to help with the promotional stuff (he and Zack were both here) so he could have just been tired from all the press stuff. Please don't hold it against Chris....he's a good guy. :)


I KNOW! I had 'em pegged for 102. Da bums! :thumbup:

I'm glad you're not holding it against them or anything, LMAO :laugh:

Congrats to Ludwick on the new deal (which was fun to hear about while I was at Redsfest this weekend) and I'm glad he's going to be with the Reds next year. I enjoyed meeting him earlier this season and I think he's going to have another solid year for our guys. He and his bat definitely enjoyed GABP a lot last year! :p

REDREAD
12-10-2012, 09:54 AM
I've got no problem with that. Seems like a good deal for both sides.

Matt

Honestly, it sounds like a GREAT deal for the Reds.
Youkillis was "pondering" a one year deal at 12 million, thinking it might not be enough.

With this salary explosion in FA , if we get a good year out of Ludwick in 2013, it's almost like getting the second year for 3-4 million...

Thank you Ludwick for coming back, I'm sure you could've gotten more money elsewhere if you really wanted to. I think it's awesome that the Reds have returned to being a franchise that players want to play for.

REDREAD
12-10-2012, 09:57 AM
He had his chance last spring to earn that spot and did nothing with the opportunity. Sometimes you only get a chance or two to make your case. He may have let his slip away.

Hiesey has had multiple chances to seize a starting job.
Even if the Reds pick up a CF, he'll still get plenty of playing time next year.

REDREAD
12-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Look more critically.

..

None of the 97 wins of 2012 carry over to 2013.


Upside: Leake as the 6th starter (upgrade)
Full year of Broxton
Ludwick no longer adjusting
Hopefully a full healthy year of Votto
Stubbs working with batting coach over winter (still time to get a CF)
Another year of experience for Latos, Cueto, Homer
Full year of X Paul (avoids that horrible black hole at LH pinch hitter)
Potential bench upgrades to Cairo/Valdez? (Maybe Hannahan)
Mez couldn't possibly do worse..

Downside:
Ludwick a year older
No 1/2 half Rolen (probably)
Arroyo a year older (not really worried, but potential regression)

Wildcard:
Chapman in the rotation
Frasier for an entire season (may give greater production at 3b or may regress)

M2
12-10-2012, 10:41 AM
You mean front-loaded deal?

Nope, backloaded. He's getting $7.5 million in 2013 for a $12 million contract with the leftover $4.5 million coming on top of his $3 million contract in 2014. The key is he deliver in 2013. That's how he earns his money.

HeatherC1212
12-10-2012, 03:38 PM
Ludwick deal is official as of today. :)

Link: http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121207&content_id=40572480&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin