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View Full Version : Why are we [the fans] so desperate to make a trade?



RedTruck
12-05-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm sort of confused by this.

The reds won 97 games last year...and had plenty of "bad luck" games like the valdez passed ball between his legs against the astros that resulted in a loss.

If a few more games went the reds way, they surely could've reached the 100 game winning plateau and beyond.

The core of the team is still in tact..yes Ludwick might be gone, but last I checked he's an aging veteran who had a great year, in career of many downyears. He can easily revert back to his good old San Diego days in a heart beat.

Than there's all this talk for Upton, and Victorino, and every other lead off hitter imaginable. Honestly, why not just go the cheap route and just maybe get someone (like another had mentioned) like Eric Chavez, or maybe even Youklis to play 3rd base, and just have Fraizer move to leftfield if the reds can't sign anybody?

I know the reds need a leadoff hitter. But I think trading teams are well aware of this as well, and would surely spike the price up, and would have to start with Billy Hamilton and up. I just think that this team will go as far as it's pitching takes it...maybe add another solid bullpen piece? Maybe go after another starter?

I don't know, but for now, I think this team is alright standing pat as long as they make a few minor moves here and there. The core is still here. Chapman is still here. Cueto is still here. Latos is still here. Marshall, Broxton is still here. Votto, Phillips, Bruce is still here. The team is still here. So I truly don't see (unless it's a major injury prone season) why this same team can't win 90+ games again next year, without needed to make some blockbuster move, just for the sake of making a blockbuster move.

Pony Boy
12-05-2012, 11:31 AM
I agree completely. I think we should resign ludwick, sign a budget CF that will get us through until Hamilton is ready, and work on extending our core players.

No need for a blockbuster deal.

texasdave
12-05-2012, 11:37 AM
Maybe because that is what teams try to do in the offseason, improve themselves. Call me crazy but if you can improve your team, why wouldn't you?

citizen
12-05-2012, 11:40 AM
i don't put much stock into games that could go one way or the other, for every ball that went through valdez's legs or whatever, you could easily make the case for a game that the reds won that the other team should have, i think those are a wash in the end

people probably just want to see the offense improve because it was somewhat of a liability last year, and we see other teams around us improving. or maybe its just off season boredom, baseball needs to come back

Alpha Zero
12-05-2012, 11:40 AM
The strength of this team last year was the starting pitching. Our best 5 SP remained healthy all year, which isn't likely to happen again. There were serious problems with the lineup. The top of the lineup was historically bad last year and should be addressed, probably via trade given the Reds' budget restrictions.

Redlegs Homer
12-05-2012, 11:41 AM
Because the Reds are so close and they have the assets to improve the team greatly through a trade.

swityak11
12-05-2012, 11:42 AM
Because the easiest way to improve the offense (and team) going forward to replace the black hole of suck known as Drew Stubbs in CF. There are no bargain options in the FA market so you need to look at potential trades.

Denard Span was a big get by the Nationals because the market is thin and expensive.

Larkin88
12-05-2012, 11:50 AM
I know the reds need a leadoff hitter. But I think trading teams are well aware of this as well, and would surely spike the price up, and would have to start with Billy Hamilton and up. I just think that this team will go as far as it's pitching takes it...maybe add another solid bullpen piece? Maybe go after another starter?


Fair post, sir, though I don't know that leadoff trade talks "would have to start with Billy Hamilton," unless you are pretty much exclusively talking about Justin Upton. And I agree that I think proposals for him are probably a little unrealistic, anyway.

I definitely don't think some mega blockbuster needs to happen and the Reds would probably shoot themselves in the foot if they tried to go that route. But, as an example, Denard Span was just traded for Alex Meyer, who has value more in line with Stephenson or (maybe?) Cingrani than Billy Hamilton.

Our leadoff situation is an absolute mess. It needs to be improved. It seems to me personally, that it would be unwise to punt finding a solution for that for next season, and maybe 2014, because we're putting all our eggs into the "Billy Hamilton is definitely going to the solution to all those ills" basket.

People disagree here too, but I just don't think the team has the money to solve that question through free agency (assuming they nab Ludwick, anyway). So I won't say I'm desperate to make a trade, especially for one of the elite names being thrown around. But I will be a little disheartened if nothing is done to bolster that glaring weakness on the team in some capacity. It just so happens that the most attractive options are already (as you might imagine) under control by another club.

texasdave
12-05-2012, 11:54 AM
I definitely don't think some mega blockbuster needs to happen and the Reds would probably shoot themselves in the foot if they tried to go that route.

Like those trades for Latos and Marshall last winter. :)

texasdave
12-05-2012, 11:57 AM
Honestly, that is what off-seasons are for. You step back, evaluate your club and then try to strengthen any weaknesses. Every other team is doing the same. Washington, who I feel was the better club in 2012, has already snagged Span and Haren.

joshua
12-05-2012, 12:09 PM
I don't understand why everyone is dead set on changing the rotation. Chapman is a gamble as a starter and needs another pitch, but is a stud at closer, we had a bad ass rotation last year that got lucky to avoid injury, and two guys in the cusp of the majors for starter depth.

What I can understand is trying to get someone at leadoff to replace the blackhole at the plate known.as Stubbs. I could also understand trying to acquire a backup catcher after Mesoraco's dissapointing year.
We don't need a blockbuster trade, what we need is to tweak the lineup a bit.

The bad news is that we have some.holes at CF, backup 3B, backup catcher...the good news is that we have guys almost ready to come up and fill them (Hamilton, HRod, Mesoraco). We only need to acquire one or two year solutions.

Red in Atl
12-05-2012, 12:23 PM
Totally agree. I wouldn't trade anyone of significance unless we are getting top notch talent in return. And I don't see anyone really available that fits that.

The guys I see as "expendable" are Stubbs and Leake. I was so disappointed in Leake this year, and I'm so done with Stubbs.

I'd prefer they solidify the bench. Cairo and Valdez are thankfully gone. I liked Miggy and think he'd make a great coach, but he just couldn't hack it this year. I'd love to see them sign Youk or Keppinger, especially if they are going to let Rolen play one more year.

Please don't overpay for Ludwick. Two years tops. I'm not sold on his late season rebirth. And I don't want to see that money hurting us down the road. Frazier in Left if not.

Lead off is a must though. I would love to see BH have a great Spring, but I also don't see any reason to rush him. He's got to get at least half a season playing CF under his belt before he's MLB ready.

I hate to say this, but is there any way, JHamilton signs a one year deal? The longer he goes unsigned, it could happen. If they signed him, I'd go back to the Bruce in the leadoff idea.

Bruce RF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
J. Hamilton CF
Ludwick/Frazier LF
Rolen/Youk/Frazier 3B
Hanigan/Mez C
Cozart SS

Bench:

Keppinger 2B/SS/3B
Rolen/Youk 1B/3b
Heisey OF
Paul OF
Hannigan/Mez C
Gregorious SS/2B

I know there's one extra guy here. Youk and Keppinger probably can't happen. And Youk is too expensive. But I still think he'd like to retire a Red. Having Rolen and Youk would bring a lot of power to the bench. Keppinger is still a true hitter. Maybe Didi stays at AAA. I'm sure there will be room for all at some point.

11 pitchers

webbbj
12-05-2012, 12:32 PM
the reds were active late in the offseason with trades. Just be patient. Im all for doing anything to improve the club. I also dont want to just give pieces away just for the sake of saying we made a move.

Pony Boy
12-05-2012, 01:13 PM
Like those trades for Latos and Marshall last winter. :)

The Reds were coming off of a 79 win season last winter and had a farm system loaded with blocked prospects. Now they are coming off of a 97 win season with a less loaded farm system and their best prospects have a clear path to the majors. Big difference.

Larkin88
12-05-2012, 01:15 PM
Like those trades for Latos and Marshall last winter. :)

Different circumstances entirely, haha. We clearly, clearly needed a top-of-the-rotation arm last offseason and I was thrilled we got him.

Don't know if I'd call the Marshall one a blockbuster, though. Honestly, that's more in line with what I could see the Reds parting with to improve the leadoff situation if that clarifies things a little bit. Leake+ some prospects, maybe? Or pitching prospects with higher upside?

texasdave
12-05-2012, 01:16 PM
The beginning of free-agent signings and the Winter Meetings is like Christmas morning to baseball fans. Of course they want to open that big box with red bow on the top and see what is inside. It would be like telling a kid to wait until later that day because the gift is going to be the same whenver they open it.

The off-season represents hope, hope of finding that last piece of the puzzle that is going to bring a World Championship. If someone is not anxious to see his/her team make improvements at this time of year, I have to wonder.

texasdave
12-05-2012, 01:18 PM
Different circumstances entirely, haha. We clearly, clearly needed a top-of-the-rotation arm last offseason and I was thrilled we got him.

Don't know if I'd call the Marshall one a blockbuster, though. Honestly, that's more in line with what I could see the Reds parting with to improve the leadoff situation if that clarifies things a little bit. Leake+ some prospects, maybe? Or pitching prospects with higher upside?

Not really. We clearly need a top-of-the-lineup player who can get on base in front of Joey Votto. Unless you think that having a .254 OBP out of the leadoff spot is not much of a problem.

Larkin88
12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Not really. We clearly need a top-of-the-lineup player who can get on base in front of Joey Votto. Unless you think that having a .254 OBP out of the leadoff spot is not much of a problem.

I think you should know that is precisely not what I am saying, Dave, but thank you for putting words in my mouth. You and I have exchanged all sorts of thoughts on potential improvements through trades... but remember, we aren't allowed to trade pitchers? We just have to do it through free agency from the money fairy Walt and company found in the mystical forest of revenue sharing.

Even in this thread, I said "I will be a little disheartened if nothing is done to bolster that glaring weakness on the team in some capacity. It just so happens that the most attractive options are already (as you might imagine) under control by another club." You're right. Clearly I think having a .254 OBP out of the leadoff spot is not much of a problem. :rolleyes:

If you don't think the Reds were in greater need of a drastic improvement to their pitching last season than they are leadoff going into this season, that's fine. But I'm not going to waste time arguing that point since we fundamentally seem to be on different pages.

You keep referencing Span over and over. Did it take Volquez, Grandal, Alonso and Boxberger for the Nats to get him?

americanoutlaw1
12-05-2012, 03:35 PM
It seems everyone is really on board with trading Leake, and while I wouldn't necessarily be opposed I would like to point out some things about him that many seem to overlook... Even though he has had some struggles in GABP- as should really be expected of most 22,23,24 year olds- he still gets nearly 50% groundballs and has pitched to a career era on the road of 3.74 and it has never been over 3.8- very consistent production over 224 innings away from home- trade him away and he is a guy who is nearly a lock to throw up a 3.8 era or maybe less... Look what Trevor Cahill got in a trade last year- he and Leake are very similiar pitchers and I would imagine they should have very close to equal value... This is something that should be taken into consideration when moving him... Also these new contracts- Jeremy Guthrie just landed a $25 million deal... Leake may make half that over the next 3 years... He should be a very valuable trade asset because of these things and if moved it should only be for a player who can provide an immediate upgrade in a position of need... Otherwise he needs to stay. Yes, he deserves a rotation spot, and it would be uncool to put him in the pen or Louisville, but that's what happens on very good teams sometimes.

MoneyInTheBank
12-05-2012, 08:00 PM
As good as this team's record was, there are holes to fill. Money is tight. Trades are more feasible on a tight budget. Now, if you are talking about one of these "Bruce, Chapman and Hamilton for Stanton" then, yeah, you're right, it's a waste of time.

Hondo
12-05-2012, 10:28 PM
This team would have won close to 110 Games in 2012 had they had a Lead-Off Hitter and Johnny Cueto would've Won 20 Games and probably been the Cy Young Award Winner.

That's Why.

40YrRedsFan
12-05-2012, 11:12 PM
We lost many games during the season and didn't win in the post season because we didn't hit in critical situations, or at all. IMO, we need to acquire 2 hitters and
bench help. We were so close last year, this is why we are clamoring for a trade or
free agents.

Hondo
12-05-2012, 11:27 PM
We lost many games during the season and didn't win in the post season because we didn't hit in critical situations, or at all. IMO, we need to acquire 2 hitters and
bench help. We were so close last year, this is why we are clamoring for a trade or
free agents.

Amen, brother.

Justin Upton LF
Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Jack Hannahan Left Handed Bench Hitter

RedTruck
12-06-2012, 12:30 AM
Amen, brother.

Justin Upton LF
Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Jack Hannahan Left Handed Bench Hitter

Be prepared for no depth and no decent prospects for 4/5+ years if those deals occur.

RedTruck
12-06-2012, 12:39 AM
We lost many games during the season and didn't win in the post season because we didn't hit in critical situations, or at all. IMO, we need to acquire 2 hitters and
bench help. We were so close last year, this is why we are clamoring for a trade or
free agents.

We won 97 games...son, teams don't go 162-0. Teams are bound to have off days, and streaky weaks, and what not. The point is that won nearly 100 games.

The post season was awful luck, and full of bad decisions by dusty and company. Coming home 2-0, with 3 left to play in your home ballpark? Losing our ace Cueto. Having Votto still injured and playing like a singles hitter. Brandon Phillips getting thrown out early in the inning in game 3, which would have resulted in a extra run, and would have resulted in no extra's and no loss. Having that rolen error occur during game 3 extras. Throwing out the poor performing Mike Leake in a critical game 4. Allowing Latos to lose his cool in game 5, and have him being kept out there until he gave up a crippling grand slam to buster posey.

The reds had plenty of opportunities to win the series. They blew it. It wasn't just because of an incompetent offence. Heck, they scored what 9-10 runs in San Francisco in Game 2, the most pitcher friendly park in all of MLB>?

It's the approach of the reds hitters that is so screwed up in my opinion. They see the close fences of GABP and just swing for the fences every single time since it's quite easy to get a cheapo at GABP. In san francisco they knew they were facing ace pitchers and runs would not be easy to come by, so they played small ball, they aimed for the gaps, they aimed where the defense wasn't. That philosophy was turned 180 degrees at GABP.

We need a better hitting coach, a hitting coach that can teach every roster position player to treat GABP with patience and dillidgance. To teach them, that just because the fences are closer than most parks, DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO SWING FOR THEM.

Plus get a few bench pieces I agree. :)

MoneyInTheBank
12-06-2012, 06:33 AM
We won 97 games...son, teams don't go 162-0. Teams are bound to have off days, and streaky weaks, and what not. The point is that won nearly 100 games.

The post season was awful luck, and full of bad decisions by dusty and company. Coming home 2-0, with 3 left to play in your home ballpark? Losing our ace Cueto. Having Votto still injured and playing like a singles hitter. Brandon Phillips getting thrown out early in the inning in game 3, which would have resulted in a extra run, and would have resulted in no extra's and no loss. Having that rolen error occur during game 3 extras. Throwing out the poor performing Mike Leake in a critical game 4. Allowing Latos to lose his cool in game 5, and have him being kept out there until he gave up a crippling grand slam to buster posey.

These 2 explanations are big pet peeves of mine. Just like the argument that Dusty Baker could do no wrong because they won 97 games. They got to the playoffs and lost to a team that won 94 games. It goes deeper than the wins. This team was flawed.

As far as the postseason goes, sure Votto wasn't right and Cueto got hurt. Look at the team who beat us. They lost their best hitter to a steroid suspension and had to move their ace to the bullpen because of ineffectiveness. But they had other guys step up and they won the World Series. The Reds were unable to do that.

You mention the 10 runs in SF. Hasn't that been an ongoing problem with this Reds team? 1 run, 1 run, 10 runs, 2 runs, 2 runs, 8 runs. Then you look at the stats and say "the offense is fine, they average 4 runs a game" but they go 2-4 in those games.

I'm not trying to come down on you, I'm just trying to give you an idea of where folks are coming from when they feel this team must get better to get to the next level beyond regular season wins and get those playoff wins.

Isn't it great though that we have gotten to a point where the expectations of the Cincinnati Reds is beyond "we may suck now, but wait until the prospects are ready, we are going to be awesome!" or "we made the playoffs!"? It's World Series or bust