PDA

View Full Version : Mesoraco



Benihana
12-07-2012, 04:58 PM
Rays have inquired as part of a 3 team deal.


Rays Still Seek Catcher
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 7 at 2:45pm CST]
The Rays continue “poking around” for a catcher, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter). They asked at least one team about the possibility of working on a three-way trade that would send Devin Mesoraco from Cincinnati to Tampa Bay.

Mesoraco, 24, appeared in 54 games with the Reds this past season, posting a .212/.288/.352 batting line in 184 plate appearances. He entered the season as the 16th-best prospect in MLB, according to Baseball America. The Rays currently have Jose Molina, Jose Lobaton, Robinson Chirinos and Chris Gimenez as internal catching options.


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#yDvrvMmVfF1uqCmc.99

Personally, I would not sell low on Mez at this point, as I still think he could be the catcher of the future. However, if the Rays could send someone interesting (like a pitcher) to the Royals and we could net Wil Myers, I'd pack Devin's bags for him.

Not sure there is equal value there, so there would likely have to be other parts involved, but it could be interesting. Maybe something like:

Royals trade: Wil Myers to CIN
Rays trade: James Shields to KC
Reds trade: Devin Mesoraco and Tony Cingrani (or Mike Leake) to TB

I'd guess the Reds would likely have to give more than that. Thoughts?

mattfeet
12-07-2012, 05:01 PM
You beat me by 20 seconds! lol

Id be ALL ABOUT that trade you posted up. I doubt it'll happen, but I still would be on board.

-Matt

PuffyPig
12-07-2012, 05:16 PM
Mez still has a ton of trade value.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Mez still has a ton of trade value.

I agree. In fact, he is one year removed from being the catching equivalent of Wil Myers, which should be considerably more value than the RF equivalent of Wil Myers.

However, I'm not sure the current Mez would be enough to fetch Shields by himself (which is what the Royals would likely want for Myers).

Unless someone like Myers or J.Upton is coming to Cincy, I'd hang onto Mez.

Scrap Irony
12-07-2012, 05:30 PM
If it's a three-way, I'm guessing Tampa is looking to horde prospects and save money. Since KC is also looking to save some cash, I could see the following work out:
Kansas City deals Alex Gordon to Cincinnati.
Tampa deals James Shields to Kansas City.
Cincinnati deals Devin Mesoraco and DiDi Gregorius to Tampa, with the understanding that Ben Zobrist moves back to the OF or 2B.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 05:36 PM
If it's a three-way, I'm guessing Tampa is looking to horde prospects and save money. Since KC is also looking to save some cash, I could see the following work out:
Kansas City deals Alex Gordon to Cincinnati.
Tampa deals James Shields to Kansas City.
Cincinnati deals Devin Mesoraco and DiDi Gregorius to Tampa, with the understanding that Ben Zobrist moves back to the OF or 2B.

Agree with the general logic, although why not sub Myers for Gordon (for the Reds sake)? The Royals were said to be considering trading Myers for Shields.

Also, I thought about including DiDi but Tampa has Hak Ju-Lee who is probably 1 year away. So give them an arm like Cingrani or Leake instead to replace Shields and/or Price who may also not be long for Tampa.

It just seems like there are more SS-needy targets out there if the Reds are going to deal DiDi (ahem, Arizona and Justin Upton) then trading him to Tampa.

OldXOhio
12-07-2012, 05:36 PM
I don't know how I feel about trading Mes, but he should still have a lot of value. Question is would you trade him in a deal with Colorado being the 3rd team and Fowler coming to the Reds?

Steve4192
12-07-2012, 05:49 PM
I'm all for trading anyone as long as the Reds get legit value for him, but I suspect the folks inquiring about Mesoraco are looking to get him at a discount in hopes that his awful 2012 has soured the Reds on him. I doubt they are offering anything like the packages you guys are mentioning.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 05:54 PM
I don't know how I feel about trading Mes, but he should still have a lot of value. Question is would you trade him in a deal with Colorado being the 3rd team and Fowler coming to the Reds?

I'd rather trade from our pitching excess for Fowler so long as that doesn't include Bailey.

traderumor
12-07-2012, 05:58 PM
If it's a three-way, I'm guessing Tampa is looking to horde prospects and save money. Since KC is also looking to save some cash, I could see the following work out:
Kansas City deals Alex Gordon to Cincinnati.
Tampa deals James Shields to Kansas City.
Cincinnati deals Devin Mesoraco and DiDi Gregorius to Tampa, with the understanding that Ben Zobrist moves back to the OF or 2B.Huh? Mes AND Didi for Alex Gordon? No thanks.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 06:24 PM
With Ludwick signing I guess we can rule out a Myers, Upton or Choo acquisition.

IMO, that means we should rule out trading Mesoraco.

I hope Walt can trade for Ellsbury or Fowler. I also wouldn't be sad to sign Bourn to a 1 year deal.

RedsManRick
12-07-2012, 07:50 PM
Rays have inquired as part of a 3 team deal.



Personally, I would not sell low on Mez at this point, as I still think he could be the catcher of the future. However, if the Rays could send someone interesting (like a pitcher) to the Royals and we could net Wil Myers, I'd pack Devin's bags for him.

Not sure there is equal value there, so there would likely have to be other parts involved, but it could be interesting. Maybe something like:

Royals trade: Wil Myers to CIN
Rays trade: James Shields to KC
Reds trade: Devin Mesoraco and Tony Cingrani (or Mike Leake) to TB

I'd guess the Reds would likely have to give more than that. Thoughts?

Mez and Leake/Cingrani for Myers? Catchers who can hit and actually catch are such a rare commodity; I think Mez still has more value than you do -- that Leake and Cingrani do.

I could see Mez and a lesser prospect, like Lotzkar.

PuffyPig
12-07-2012, 08:13 PM
If we trade Mez it would to be an immediate priority for Walt to trade for our cacther of the future.

Mez is not some spare change we have.

He is our only viable catcher of the future.

And with any luck, the future starts next year.

Benihana
12-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Team insider says they aren't trading Mesoraco.

Good.

corkedbat
12-07-2012, 10:58 PM
Tampa needs a catcher, Colorado is desperate for pitching and we could use a SS.

Tampa gets Mesaraco, Leake or Corcino and one of Logan Ondrusek, Jose Arredondo or Nick Masset

Colorado gets James Shields, Drew Stubbs and one of Logan Ondrusek, Jose Arredondo or Nick Masset

Cincinnati gets Dexter Fowler, Drew Pomerantz and Chris Nelson or Eric Young

_Sir_Charles_
12-08-2012, 11:23 AM
Why on earth are we discussing trading Devin Mesoraco?!? People do realize that even if he's not the starter this year, he is the following AND he's the only viable back-up we have right now? You guys get this...right? We don't have Grandal sitting down there too anymore. We CANNOT trade Mesoraco IMO. Period.

jhu1321
12-08-2012, 11:29 AM
They are not trading Mes, nor should they. They believe in the future of his middle of the order bat.

RANDY IN INDY
12-08-2012, 12:33 PM
I would hate to see them trade Mesoraco. He has potential with the stick. They have a good defensive, switch hitting catcher in the minors in Tucker Barnhart. Those two could provide a nice tandem for years to come.

Scrap Irony
12-08-2012, 01:45 PM
I think, could they get a guy like Wil Myers, they should do that post-haste.

Mesoraco strikes me as a career backup guy. A lesser, RH David Ross.

And that's only if he can shorten his swing and stop uppercutting.

I'd deal him tomorrow and lose no sleep.

lollipopcurve
12-08-2012, 02:00 PM
Reds do not have a spot for Wil Myers.

Scrap Irony
12-08-2012, 02:15 PM
He played 78 games last year in CF.

If you can truly get him for Mesoraco, you do that deal eight days a week. Backup catchers are cheap and plentiful.

757690
12-08-2012, 02:26 PM
I think, could they get a guy like Wil Myers, they should do that post-haste.

Mesoraco strikes me as a career backup guy. A lesser, RH David Ross.

And that's only if he can shorten his swing and stop uppercutting.

I'd deal him tomorrow and lose no sleep.

Ross never put up offensive numbers anywhere near what Mesoraco did in the minors at the same age. Ross was actually always a backup, even in the minors.

Mesoraco could become the next Jeff Clement or he could become the next Brian McCann, or something in between. But his future isn't cemented yet. No need to assume he's going to fail.

Scrap Irony
12-08-2012, 02:54 PM
... his future isn't cemented yet. No need to assume he's going to fail.

Couldn't you say that about every prospect in the game?

Isn't it the job of Red management (and armchair amateur GMs everywhere) to break down prospects of all shapes, sizes, and the like?

Vottomatic
12-08-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm not sold on Mez either. And based on his benching late in the season, I'm not sure the Reds are either. But they can't act like it.

If some team blows you away with a deal, I take it in a heartbeat.

I know Hanigan is like 32, but he simply is underrated. I want Hanigan catching 80% of the games again next season. I wish they could have signed Navarro and let Mez catch every game at Louisville next season.

lollipopcurve
12-08-2012, 05:15 PM
He played 78 games last year in CF.

Doesn't matter. Reds wouldn't put Myers (or Bruce) in CF.

_Sir_Charles_
12-08-2012, 05:28 PM
He played 78 games last year in CF.

If you can truly get him for Mesoraco, you do that deal eight days a week. Backup catchers are cheap and plentiful.

But that's just it, many don't see him as a backup catcher...they see Hanigan as the backup catcher moving forward. (I don't personally...but I digress) He's a solid reciever, very intelligent, young, cheap, and has the skills to be a solid middle of the order bat. Those are NOT cheap and plentiful. Yeah, he had a poor year last season...but who didn't expect a poor season with the stick for a rookie catcher?

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2012, 07:55 PM
Mes has way more bat speed than Ross. Not an apt comparison at all IMO.

RANDY IN INDY
12-08-2012, 08:06 PM
Every player doesn't have instant success. I am amazed at how many folks are ready to write off a young talent so quickly.

kaldaniels
12-09-2012, 02:29 AM
I'm not saying that the Reds should try to trade Mes, but I guess I would be less upset than many on here if he was traded.

He can certainly change my mind on this but he just looked overmatched last season. No need to tell me he's young, he's a catcher,etc...I know all that. But he just didn't pass the eyeball test.

That said, I think he was poorly used (didn't play enough) last year and if I were calling the shots, Hanigan is my opening day catcher due to seniority, but I give the majority of games to Mes.

We have to see what we have in this kid.

gilpdawg
12-09-2012, 02:48 AM
So we are down on a guy with 237 career plate appearances? That's still a fairly small sample.

RedEye
12-09-2012, 09:26 AM
FWIW, Mes tends to look a little lost his first time around at every level. Then something clicks and he dominates. No idea whether that will be true in the majors or not, but it seems possible.

kaldaniels
12-09-2012, 10:17 AM
So we are down on a guy with 237 career plate appearances? That's still a fairly small sample.

I'm not down on him. I just am not of the "it would be crazy to trade him" opinion. Like I said, I want him playing a lot next season.

dunner13
12-09-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm not down on him. I just am not of the "it would be crazy to trade him" opinion. Like I said, I want him playing a lot next season.

Agreed, he needs to play a lot next season and my worry is that with Hanigan doing such a good job defensively and handling the pitchers that Mes wont get much of a shot. If pitchers are requesting to pitch to Hanigan is Dusty really going to start Mes instead?

RANDY IN INDY
12-09-2012, 11:01 AM
How valuable would Hannigan be as a trading chip? Personally, I wouldn't trade either right now. Just a question.

lollipopcurve
12-09-2012, 11:19 AM
he needs to play a lot next season and my worry is that with Hanigan doing such a good job defensively and handling the pitchers that Mes wont get much of a shot. If pitchers are requesting to pitch to Hanigan is Dusty really going to start Mes instead?

Huge question. I think Mesoraco needs regular reps, offensively and defensively, in order to play well. I also think Hanigan is highly valued in the organization, from the front office to the manager to the pitching staff. I think it's going to be tough for the team to put Mesoraco's development ahead of winning in 2013. Will be one of the best storylines of the year, along with the Chapman conversion.

Blitz Dorsey
12-09-2012, 11:19 AM
I want nothing to do with trading Mesoraco when his stock is low (or not as high as it should/could be). In addition, I fully believe he's the catcher of the future for the Reds. He'll be a good backup to Hanigan for a couple more years and then will be ready to take over. I see natural leadership qualities in this young man. It might have rubbed some of the older players the wrong way, but I don't think he meant anything by it. I think Mesoraco is used to being "the leader" of every team he's ever been on and he took that same attitude to the Big Leagues with him. Nothing wrong with that. It shows he feels he belongs. I remember Hanigan's brash attitude on the field standing out to me when he first came up too. "This guy sure isn't shy." I want my catchers to be outspoken on the field. Hanigan seems laid-back as heck off the field, but he's a fiery character between the lines.

I like the catching situation moving forward with Hanigan and Mesoraco.

Vottomatic
12-09-2012, 11:57 AM
I'm not down on him. I just am not of the "it would be crazy to trade him" opinion. Like I said, I want him playing a lot next season.

This is close to where I am on Mez. Although I am a little down on him.

I'd love to know why he was benched late in the season. The rumors I heard is that the pitchers were down on his game-calling, and that he had an attitude problem about it.

Agree, I'd hate to sell low on him.

I'm a huge Hanigan fan, and think he is one of the most underrated catchers in MLB, moreso because of his game-calling and defense, with a good but not great bat. I believe he is only signed through 2013, another dilemma for the Reds.

As I said prior in this thread, I wish Navarro could have been signed as the backup, simply because I see Hanigan getting 120+ games. And if that's the case, Mez would have been better off getting 120 games at Louisville to work on things. And it may have increased his trade stock again, or been more convincing that he is ready to be the next full-time catcher for the Reds.

Crumbley
12-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Organization is way too thin at catcher to trade Mez, especially after such a bad season.

Plus Plus
12-09-2012, 01:32 PM
This is close to where I am on Mez. Although I am a little down on him.

I'd love to know why he was benched late in the season. The rumors I heard is that the pitchers were down on his game-calling, and that he had an attitude problem about it.

Agree, I'd hate to sell low on him.

I'm a huge Hanigan fan, and think he is one of the most underrated catchers in MLB, moreso because of his game-calling and defense, with a good but not great bat. I believe he is only signed through 2013, another dilemma for the Reds.

As I said prior in this thread, I wish Navarro could have been signed as the backup, simply because I see Hanigan getting 120+ games. And if that's the case, Mez would have been better off getting 120 games at Louisville to work on things. And it may have increased his trade stock again, or been more convincing that he is ready to be the next full-time catcher for the Reds.

I am also a big Hanigan fan, and love seeing him on the team. I think he's a really valuable part of the roster going forward, and wouldn't want to cut bait at all.

The big difference between Hanigan and Mesoraco is that Mesoraco could end up being a middle of the order bat, while Hanigan has no power and, being 32 years old, isn't going to develop power. His eye remains terrific, and having a guy who walks more than he strikes out is very valuable.

But he had 16 extra base hits last year. 12 the year before. Bill James projects him for 11 next year.

Mesoraco had 200 less ABs and had 13 extra base hits. His numbers were crippled by a .234 BABIP and a manager reluctant to play him with any consistency or regularity (I don't consider start-sit-sit-start-sit patterns to be consistent at all).

In the best of all possible worlds, Hanigan is a nice player who fits a nice role on a very good team. But Mesoraco is a middle of the order bat who becomes the RHB that this team has been looking for for quite some time.

Patrick Bateman
12-09-2012, 02:05 PM
Hanigan is 32 and has old player offensive skills. No interest in purely relying on him going forward.

Roy Tucker
12-09-2012, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't be out actively trying to deal Mesoraco. I think he'll be a good to very good player.

But I'd also listen to offers. They'd have to be slobber-knockers and someone would have to pay a very dear price for. But like the old joke with the punch line "we've already established that madam, we're just haggling over the price", Mesoraco can be bought. But it better be a huge return,

dougdirt
12-09-2012, 04:17 PM
The rumors I heard is that the pitchers were down on his game-calling, and that he had an attitude problem about it.
Not what I was told by several difference sources.

RANDY IN INDY
12-09-2012, 04:34 PM
Well? If you're going to post that, give it up.

dougdirt
12-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Well? If you're going to post that, give it up.

Been down this road before on this topic. It isn't something I am willing to give up. And that is my last post about why I am not giving up what it was.

Vottomatic
12-09-2012, 05:11 PM
Not what I was told by several difference sources.

I guess you got bad info then Doug. :p :laugh: ;) Just kidding, man.

Look, I get all the love for Mez in terms of hoping he is the future catcher.

But my dilemma is, if Hanigan is a huge upgrade in calling a game. And the pitchers have tons more faith in Hanigan's game-calling, and very little in Mez. Then you may be right. If Mez is the future middle of the order bat with power, THE REDS MAY NEED IT if his game-calling is suspect and the pitching staff gives up a run or two more per game. ;)

Simply, I'm fine sticking Hanigan 8th in the batting order, if his work behind the plate merits 1 or 2 less runs per game and he's throwing out basestealers at a good clip.

I just think some people have penciled Mez in as the future and he's really yet to prove anything. Plenty of #1 picks have put up good minor league numbers and bombed in the majors. I'm not sure what Geovany Soto's minor league career was like or if he was a #1 pick, but he won rookie of the year over Joey Votto, and look at Soto's career now. Look at Stubbs.

I think there is zero certainty about Mez at this point.

mth123
12-09-2012, 08:59 PM
Not sure why the Reds catching situation is a problem for some. Mesoraco is young with a high ceiling and trying to break in. Until he does, Hanigan is one of the best defensive catchers in the game who gets a lot out of the staff. I don't see a need to change the situation until Mesoraco siezes the job. Hanigan has already shown on multiple occassions that he suffers a drop off on both offense and defense if he plays too much (reference previous years when Ramon was hurting or playing 1B when Votto was out for an extended period after his father's death). OTOH, there isn't really a reason to hand Mes the job until he takes it. Some guys take a while to become the player they eventually do. Tony Perez wasn't a regular for his first couple of years. Eric Davis took a while to take over full time. Barry Larkin had an OPS+ of 76 as a 23 year old.

Hanigan can't play 140 games per year and Mesoraco gets plenty of playing time to take the job as his tandem partner. The situation is nearly perfect given who these guys are and where they are on their career paths. Mesoraco just needs to step up.

Blitz Dorsey
12-09-2012, 09:02 PM
Hanigan is 32 and has old player offensive skills. No interest in purely relying on him going forward.

Isn't "old player skills" supposed to include power? Hanigan has very little of it. There are times when Hanigan completely squares up the ball, hits it on the sweet spot of the bat ... and the left fielder has to back up a couple steps to catch it. Dude just has very little natural power.

Superdude
12-09-2012, 11:17 PM
Isn't "old player skills" supposed to include power? Hanigan has very little of it. There are times when Hanigan completely squares up the ball, hits it on the sweet spot of the bat ... and the left fielder has to back up a couple steps to catch it. Dude just has very little natural power.

What's the theory of old player skills? Seems to me if any skill was going to age well it would be putting the bat on the ball, which is about all Hanigan can do.

Steve4192
12-10-2012, 12:16 AM
there isn't really a reason to hand Mes the job until he takes it. Some guys take a while to become the player they eventually do. Tony Perez wasn't a regular for his first couple of years. Eric Davis took a while to take over full time. Barry Larkin had an OPS+ of 76 as a 23 year old.


I couldn't agree more.

I feel the same way about Billy Hamilton. Let those guys ply their craft in the minors until they have nothing left to learn there and then stick 'em on the MLB bench until they force their way into the lineup. If they haven't forced their way into the lineup by the time they enter their arbitration years and start getting expensive, it's probably time to cut bait.

Mesoraco has nothing left to prove in the minors. It's time for him to earn his money as a part-timer and be ready to make his case for the starting gig next time Hanigan gets dinged up or struggles at the plate. Hamilton could probably use another year or year-and-a-half in the minors before he is in the same situation.

Patrick Bateman
12-10-2012, 12:18 AM
Isn't "old player skills" supposed to include power? Hanigan has very little of it. There are times when Hanigan completely squares up the ball, hits it on the sweet spot of the bat ... and the left fielder has to back up a couple steps to catch it. Dude just has very little natural power.

It doesn't have to include power. He's a guy that is getting by with having adequate bat speed to pair with his strong eye and patience. The moment his bat speed takes a hit, the patient approach isn't going to get him very far as pitchers can challenge him more.

Like a lot of catchers, his offense could go to zero in a blink of an eye, earlier than I would expect if he played a less demanding position. Considering he's already getting the most out of his approach, and doesn't have much athletic skills to go by, I don't see him as a long term answer to the catching position.

Vottomatic
12-10-2012, 12:47 AM
It wouldn't surprise me to see the Reds sign a backup catcher cheap, and put Mez at Louisville for reps.

REDREAD
12-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Not what I was told by several difference sources.

Thanks, that's good to know the game calling wasn't the problem. (Sincere thanks, I appreciate what you can tell us.. ).

RANDY IN INDY
12-10-2012, 12:48 PM
Been down this road before on this topic. It isn't something I am willing to give up. And that is my last post about why I am not giving up what it was.

Then why dangle anything out there? Why post anything about it, if you aren't willing to expound?

mdccclxix
12-10-2012, 01:08 PM
I think we see much the same role for Mez in 2013. Perhaps even reduced if Chapman wants Hannigan. OTOH, I can see where Hannigan is given Chapman and Arroyo while the stable pitchers like Cueto, Latos and Bailey start learning to work really well with Mez.

2 things happen in 2014, Arroyo's a FA and Hanigan is up for arb one last time. 2013 is an awfully important year to bridge to Mez if that's what will be long term.

mdccclxix
12-10-2012, 01:11 PM
Controlling Hannigan in 2014 is a good enough reason to hold on to Mez this year to see if he can take off. Then we're looking at trades for Hannigan instead, I'd guess. He's proven he's at least a 50/50 platoon guy and probably a waste on the bench as well.

Steve4192
12-10-2012, 01:11 PM
Then why dangle anything out there? Why post anything about it, if you aren't willing to expound?

Because some information is better than no information.

Sure, I'd like to know what the issue was, but at least Doug's information tells us what it wasn't. That's more than we knew without his nugget of info.

RedEye
12-10-2012, 01:46 PM
Because some information is better than no information.

Sure, I'd like to know what the issue was, but at least Doug's information tells us what it wasn't. That's more than we knew without his nugget of info.

Exactly. I appreciate knowing whatever I can about "inside" matters. Thanks, Doug.

Scrap Irony
12-10-2012, 01:55 PM
doug, are you intsinuating that someone in the Cincinnati clubhouse is treating Mesoraco unfairly or that Red management thinks someone in the clubhouse is treating him so?

Scrap Irony
12-10-2012, 01:57 PM
Exactly. I appreciate knowing whatever I can about "inside" matters. Thanks, Doug.

The problem, IMO, is taking it as gospel.

Sometimes, opinions come out as facts.

Sometimes, sources are purposely leaking information as propaganda.

Sometimes, inside sources aren't really as inside as they seem to think.

And, sadly, sometimes, inside sources are totally fabricated.

dougdirt
12-10-2012, 04:16 PM
doug, are you intsinuating that someone in the Cincinnati clubhouse is treating Mesoraco unfairly or that Red management thinks someone in the clubhouse is treating him so?

No, I am not saying that. I have an opinion on it all, but I can't really get into it without going into what the reasoning was, which I really shouldn't. I will say this though, the reason shouldn't have any ramifications moving forward. That isn't to say it won't, but that it shouldn't.

klw
12-10-2012, 05:06 PM
No, I am not saying that. I have an opinion on it all, but I can't really get into it without going into what the reasoning was, which I really shouldn't. I will say this though, the reason shouldn't have any ramifications moving forward. That isn't to say it won't, but that it shouldn't.

You had been a proponent of Mes when he was struggling for a period in the minors and many were down on him. What are your thoughts on his skill level/ potential going forward now that he has been up for a year- (though underutilized during that year)?

RANDY IN INDY
12-10-2012, 05:48 PM
The problem, IMO, is taking it as gospel.

Sometimes, opinions come out as facts.

Sometimes, sources are purposely leaking information as propaganda.

Sometimes, inside sources aren't really as inside as they seem to think.

And, sadly, sometimes, inside sources are totally fabricated.

:beerme:

westofyou
12-10-2012, 05:52 PM
Sources are only worth something if they add to the discourse

Otherwise it's barroom blather

RANDY IN INDY
12-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Sources are only worth something if they add to the discourse

Otherwise it's barroom blather

Exactly

dougdirt
12-10-2012, 06:21 PM
You had been a proponent of Mes when he was struggling for a period in the minors and many were down on him. What are your thoughts on his skill level/ potential going forward now that he has been up for a year- (though underutilized during that year)?

On most teams, he could profile as a #5 hitter if he goes out and gets most of his potential out there, hitting .275 with 25 home runs and 30 doubles. He needs to play most of the time though.

dougdirt
12-10-2012, 06:24 PM
The problem, IMO, is taking it as gospel.

Sometimes, opinions come out as facts.

Sometimes, sources are purposely leaking information as propaganda.

Sometimes, inside sources aren't really as inside as they seem to think.

And, sadly, sometimes, inside sources are totally fabricated.

While this is all true, this specific scenario isn't such a case.

powersackers
12-10-2012, 10:04 PM
On most teams, he could profile as a #5 hitter if he goes out and gets most of his potential out there, hitting .275 with 25 home runs and 30 doubles. He needs to play most of the time though.

That's a career year for most catchers. Very rare to see any do that with consistency. Hope he is one of them.

westofyou
12-10-2012, 10:21 PM
That's a career year for most catchers. Very rare to see any do that with consistency. Hope he is one of them.

Rare is underselling that feat

It's been done 28 times and the guys who all did it more than once are HOF catchers, plus the majority was achieved during blatant hitting eras




OPS YEAR OPS AVG 2B HR RC/G AGE
1 Mike Piazza 1997 1.070 .362 32 40 10.59 28
2 Gabby Hartnett 1930 1.034 .339 31 37 9.51 29
3 Mike Piazza 2000 1.012 .324 26 38 8.92 31
4 Roy Campanella 1953 1.006 .312 26 41 9.22 31
5 Chris Hoiles 1993 1.001 .310 28 29 9.09 28
6 Rudy York 1938 .995 .298 27 33 9.38 24
7 Bill Dickey 1937 .987 .332 35 29 9.61 30
8 Roy Campanella 1951 .983 .325 33 33 8.50 29
9 Bill Dickey 1938 .981 .313 27 27 9.47 31
10 Mike Piazza 1998 .960 .328 38 32 8.30 29
11 Mike Piazza 2001 .957 .300 29 36 7.42 32
12 Jorge Posada 2000 .943 .287 35 28 8.24 28
13 Mike Piazza 1999 .936 .303 25 40 6.62 30
14 Johnny Bench 1970 .932 .293 35 45 7.14 22
15 Carlton Fisk 1977 .922 .315 26 26 7.88 29
16 Paul Lo Duca 2001 .917 .320 28 25 7.18 29
17 Mike Lieberthal 1999 .914 .300 33 31 7.02 27
18 Ivan Rodriguez 1999 .914 .332 29 35 6.12 27
19 Yogi Berra 1950 .912 .322 30 28 7.94 25
20 Yogi Berra 1956 .911 .298 29 30 7.56 31
21 Gary Carter 1982 .890 .293 32 29 6.70 28
22 Johnny Bench 1977 .889 .275 34 31 6.48 29
23 Gary Carter 1977 .881 .284 29 31 6.58 23
24 Victor Martinez 2007 .879 .301 40 25 6.64 28
25 Johnny Bench 1975 .878 .283 39 28 6.75 27
26 Carlton Fisk 1983 .874 .289 26 26 6.57 35
27 Johnny Bench 1974 .870 .280 38 33 6.52 26
28 Gary Carter 1984 .853 .294 32 27 6.66 30

Bumstead
12-11-2012, 10:11 AM
Rare is underselling that feat

It's been done 28 times and the guys who all did it more than once are HOF catchers, plus the majority was achieved during blatant hitting eras




OPS YEAR OPS AVG 2B HR RC/G AGE
1 Mike Piazza 1997 1.070 .362 32 40 10.59 28
2 Gabby Hartnett 1930 1.034 .339 31 37 9.51 29
3 Mike Piazza 2000 1.012 .324 26 38 8.92 31
4 Roy Campanella 1953 1.006 .312 26 41 9.22 31
5 Chris Hoiles 1993 1.001 .310 28 29 9.09 28
6 Rudy York 1938 .995 .298 27 33 9.38 24
7 Bill Dickey 1937 .987 .332 35 29 9.61 30
8 Roy Campanella 1951 .983 .325 33 33 8.50 29
9 Bill Dickey 1938 .981 .313 27 27 9.47 31
10 Mike Piazza 1998 .960 .328 38 32 8.30 29
11 Mike Piazza 2001 .957 .300 29 36 7.42 32
12 Jorge Posada 2000 .943 .287 35 28 8.24 28
13 Mike Piazza 1999 .936 .303 25 40 6.62 30
14 Johnny Bench 1970 .932 .293 35 45 7.14 22
15 Carlton Fisk 1977 .922 .315 26 26 7.88 29
16 Paul Lo Duca 2001 .917 .320 28 25 7.18 29
17 Mike Lieberthal 1999 .914 .300 33 31 7.02 27
18 Ivan Rodriguez 1999 .914 .332 29 35 6.12 27
19 Yogi Berra 1950 .912 .322 30 28 7.94 25
20 Yogi Berra 1956 .911 .298 29 30 7.56 31
21 Gary Carter 1982 .890 .293 32 29 6.70 28
22 Johnny Bench 1977 .889 .275 34 31 6.48 29
23 Gary Carter 1977 .881 .284 29 31 6.58 23
24 Victor Martinez 2007 .879 .301 40 25 6.64 28
25 Johnny Bench 1975 .878 .283 39 28 6.75 27
26 Carlton Fisk 1983 .874 .289 26 26 6.57 35
27 Johnny Bench 1974 .870 .280 38 33 6.52 26
28 Gary Carter 1984 .853 .294 32 27 6.66 30


So, then, it's nice to have a catcher with that kind of potential. Hopefully he does more with his opportunities in 2013.

Bum

CySeymour
12-11-2012, 11:01 AM
I'd take 15 bombs and 25 doubles, actually

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:20 AM
The problem, IMO, is taking it as gospel.

Sometimes, opinions come out as facts.

Sometimes, sources are purposely leaking information as propaganda.

Sometimes, inside sources aren't really as inside as they seem to think.

And, sadly, sometimes, inside sources are totally fabricated.

I understand the risks of trying to glean information from an internet message board. It's probably not the most reliable source of accurate information all the time. But I knew that coming in. And a poster like dougdirt, who does happen to have more possible links with "inside" sources, is someone I value for tidbits of information on this board. Yes, I suppose he could just be making stuff up or misleading us. But given his track record, I doubt he'd do that on purpose.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
Then why dangle anything out there? Why post anything about it, if you aren't willing to expound?

Because if nothing else, he refuted that other rumor. And I for one appreciate his knowledge and information. Sure, we'd all like more info...but some info is better than NO info.

Blitz Dorsey
12-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Reading between the lines of what Douglas is saying, I think Mesoraco probably did something immature and rubbed some important people the wrong way. Glad to know it's something that shouldn't affect him moving forward, as long as he's made amends with the proper people. He's a very young guy who perhaps made a mistake. All good as long as history doesn't repeat.

westofyou
12-11-2012, 01:50 PM
Because if nothing else, he refuted that other rumor. And I for one appreciate his knowledge and information. Sure, we'd all like more info...but some info is better than NO info.

It's not info if it doesn't inform, otherwise it's noise

RANDY IN INDY
12-11-2012, 01:56 PM
It's not info if it doesn't inform, otherwise it's noise

:thumbup:

RedEye
12-11-2012, 02:26 PM
It's not info if it doesn't inform, otherwise it's noise

Sometimes where there's noise, there's information to be gathered. See MLBTradeRumors.com for an example of noise gathering. I suppose it's not for everyone, but it's valuable when used correctly. That is, with a grain of salt.

REDREAD
12-11-2012, 02:31 PM
It's not info if it doesn't inform, otherwise it's noise

It's less noise than the posts criticizing him for posting it.

Doug says Mez was not benched for pitch selection.. I thought that was interesting. I realize a couple of dozen people didn't, but what's the point of complaining about it.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 02:33 PM
It's less noise than the posts criticizing him for posting it.

Doug says Mez was not benched for pitch selection.. I thought that was interesting. I realize a couple of dozen people didn't, but what's the point of complaining about it.

Exactly.

westofyou
12-11-2012, 02:36 PM
It's less noise than the posts criticizing him for posting it.

Doug says Mez was not benched for pitch selection.. I thought that was interesting. I realize a couple of dozen people didn't, but what's the point of complaining about it.

What's the point about complaining about the complaining?

See what I did there?

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 02:36 PM
It's not info if it doesn't inform, otherwise it's noise

Ah, but it DID inform. It informed me that the rumor of Mes not getting along with the pitchers was bogus. I, for one, think Doug has earned the right around here to be taken seriously and to not be assumed to be one to post inaccurate info just to show that he's "in the know".

But that's just how I took it.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 02:39 PM
What's the point about complaining about the complaining?

See what I did there?

I, for one, just like to talk about the complaining about the complaining. If that bothers anyone, feel free to complain about my talking about the complaining about the complaining. But I'm not complaining. I'm just into being "meta."

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 02:43 PM
"Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?"

Sorry, this thread just made me think of that MP skit. :O)

Scrap Irony
12-11-2012, 02:50 PM
Ah, but it DID inform. It informed me that the rumor of Mes not getting along with the pitchers was bogus. I, for one, think Doug has earned the right around here to be taken seriously and to not be assumed to be one to post inaccurate info just to show that he's "in the know".

But that's just how I took it.

Maybe.

Or doug's source just wanted to make Mesoraco feel better.

Or he wanted to shine the prospect up for a chance of dealing him.

Or he is Mesoraco.

Or he's hitched his job wagon to Mesoraco becoming a star.

Or he's the scout that watched/ signed Mesoraco and can't be objective.

Without knowing the full extent (something doug is unwilling to do, with reason), you can't assume the source is telling you the truth.

Hence, woy's comment about noise.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Maybe.

Or doug's source just wanted to make Mesoraco feel better.

Or he wanted to shine the prospect up for a chance of dealing him.

Or he is Mesoraco.

Or he's hitched his job wagon to Mesoraco becoming a star.

Or he's the scout that watched/ signed Mesoraco and can't be objective.

Without knowing the full extent (something doug is unwilling to do, with reason), you can't assume the source is telling you the truth.

Hence, woy's comment about noise.

Do you think Doug would cite a source with such a serious and obvious problem of credibility? I give him more credit than that.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Maybe.

Or doug's source just wanted to make Mesoraco feel better.

Or he wanted to shine the prospect up for a chance of dealing him.

Or he is Mesoraco.

Or he's hitched his job wagon to Mesoraco becoming a star.

Or he's the scout that watched/ signed Mesoraco and can't be objective.

Without knowing the full extent (something doug is unwilling to do, with reason), you can't assume the source is telling you the truth.

Hence, woy's comment about noise.

Even if you knew the sources, you can't assume the source is telling you the truth unless you also witnessed said things, no?

I feel comfortable assuming I know the truth at this point after having a few different people tell me the same story. I guess that they could have all gotten their story from the same place and that place was untrue, but given the sources, I doubt it. They just don't seem like connectable sources.

REDREAD
12-11-2012, 04:30 PM
What's the point about complaining about the complaining?

See what I did there?

Yea, you are so clever, recycling that line ..

It's almost as clever as people jumping on Doug every time he talks about Mez's playing time without fulling disclosing everything.

westofyou
12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
Yea, you are so clever, recycling that line ..

It's almost as clever as people jumping on Doug every time he talks about Mez's playing time without fulling disclosing everything.

And there lies the problem, but hey I get it you are fine with it. So we all should be.

Group think and all that

Always Red
12-11-2012, 04:40 PM
Even if you knew the sources, you can't assume the source is telling you the truth unless you also witnessed said things, no?

I feel comfortable assuming I know the truth at this point after having a few different people tell me the same story. I guess that they could have all gotten their story from the same place and that place was untrue, but given the sources, I doubt it. They just don't seem like connectable sources.

wait, wait, wait...so, you're saying almost everybody knows but us? ;)

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 04:43 PM
And there lies the problem, but hey I get it you are fine with it. So we all should be.

Group think and all that

So basically you don't believe anything you read? About anything that you didn't witness yourself or see full video of?

westofyou
12-11-2012, 04:49 PM
So basically you don't believe anything you read? About anything that you didn't witness yourself or see full video of?

I believe you keep trotting out your connection on this story without revealing anything more than you know something that we all don't. Yet we are supposed to take your word about it even though you can't mention anything (other than you're in the know and we aren't)

That's what I keep reading,thus I must believe in something.

But considering you aren't telling me anything; I certainly don't know what to believe other than you want us to all believe you without you actually telling us something.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 04:56 PM
I believe you keep trotting out your connection on this story without revealing anything more than you know something that we all don't. Yet we are supposed to take your word about it even though you can't mention anything (other than you're in the know and we aren't)

That's what I keep reading,thus I must believe in something.

But considering you aren't telling me anything; I certainly don't know what to believe other than you want us to all believe you without you actually telling us something.

I have told "you" things. It just isn't what you want. I have said several times of things that it wasn't.

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 04:56 PM
I like Doug's contributions, because he's familiar with the Reds minor leagues. But I also find him to be biased toward the Reds prospects since he covers them.

He seems overly attached to them at times. For example, Zach Stewart.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
I like Doug's contributions, because he's familiar with the Reds minor leagues. But I also find him to be biased toward the Reds prospects since he covers them.

He seems overly attached to them at times. For example, Zach Stewart.

That was what, 3.5 years ago? And I still don't think I was overly attached to him as much as I thought it was silly to pay the price the Reds did for a guy forcing his way out to a midwest team who needed a third baseman and the Reds were the only team at the time who fit that criteria.

And let's be honest, at this point, who haven't I covered on the Reds team in the minor leagues? Arroyo. A few backups. Ludwick. Phillips. Marshall. Broxton. That is about it. I have been doing this minor league thing since some point in 2004.

M2
12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
Found myself in a position of holding some inside information about soccer stadium negotiations in the Boston area a while back. Wrestled with whether I should mention it on a fan forum. Decided not to say anything until I could say something definitive about the situation. Finally it reached a point where I could say what was happening and did, though I kept my connection to the information vague.

What I find not particularly useful is the intimation that someone knows something, but not only can't they say how they know it, they can't even say what it is they know. If that's the case then my suggestion is to resist the urge to type about the situation until you can make a declarative statement.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Found myself in a position of holding some inside information about soccer stadium negotiations in the Boston area a while back. Wrestled with whether I should mention it on a fan forum. Decided not to say anything until I could say something definitive about the situation. Finally it reached a point where I could say what was happening and did, though I kept my connection to the information vague.

What I find not particularly useful is the intimation that someone knows something, but not only can't they say how they know it, they can't even say what it is they know. If that's the case then my suggestion is to resist the urge to type about the situation until you can make a declarative statement.

I thought Doug's statement was declarative -- he declared that another statement was "not true."

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 05:19 PM
I thought Doug's statement was declarative -- he declared that another statement was "not true."

My assessment as well. Has anybody ever considered the possibility that this might be personal information of Mez's. Heck, it might be embarrassing personal stuff. Not everything is for public consumption. He nipped a rumor in the bud by stating it wasn't true and he had solid knowledge on it. I give Doug props for not revealing info he was probably asked NOT to reveal or that may be improper to reveal. Much ado about nothing imo. Much like that Los Rojos thread spinning out of control. Spring training can't get here soon enough for this place. LOL.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Much like that Los Rojos thread spinning out of control. Spring training can't get here soon enough for this place. LOL.

I know, man. What a clown thread. I mean, chill OUT people. :alcohol:

M2
12-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I thought Doug's statement was declarative -- he declared that another statement was "not true."

My apologies then. I thought it involved an intimation about information that wasn't being presented.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 09:48 PM
My apologies then. I thought it involved an intimation about information that wasn't being presented.

No apology necessary. I could be misremembering by now, but I recall that there was some question about Mes that was raised. While he wouldn't be specific, Doug said he had sources that had given him info that disproved that idea.

MikeS21
12-12-2012, 12:08 PM
I thought the way the Reds used Mez last season was strange. I heard all the arguments that "he'll learn more on the bench in Cincy," but I don't see it. A catcher needs to play. If there is a problem with his game calling, then why not let him work on it at AAA? If there is a problem with his bat, why not give him 250 more AB's at AAA? Point is, if there is ANY element of his game that needs work, how will sitting on the bench help him?

I guess I don't see the value of sitting the bench. If a top 25 prospect isn't ready to start at the major league level, shouldn't you keep him in the minors where he can play every day and reach the level where he can start at the major league level? As far as I am concerned, they wasted a year of Mez's development in 2012.

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 12:14 PM
But considering you aren't telling me anything; I certainly don't know what to believe other than you want us to all believe you without you actually telling us something.

And you think the entire board needs to know this every time Doug speaks?

:confused::lol:

Thank you, mighty WOY, for keeping us informed every time a post doesn't meet your high standards.

westofyou
12-12-2012, 12:23 PM
And you think the entire board needs to know this every time Doug speaks?

:confused::lol:

Thank you, mighty WOY, for keeping us informed every time a post doesn't meet your high standards.

Sure anytime, smooches back at you Redread.

Tommyjohn25
12-12-2012, 12:32 PM
Stop making it personal, guys.

Vottomatic
06-12-2013, 05:37 PM
.248, 3 HR's, .720 OPS, playing more games than Hanigan.

kaldaniels
06-12-2013, 05:40 PM
.248, 3 HR's, .720 OPS, playing more games than Hanigan.

If we are bringing Hanigan into this why not post his beautiful line?

Tom Servo
06-12-2013, 05:45 PM
If we are bringing Hanigan into this why not post his beautiful line?
It would scare the women and small children.


But I'll do it anyway

.163/.273/.240 with 2 HR's and 2 doubles, good for a .513 OPS. :eek:

Always Red
06-12-2013, 05:46 PM
.163/.273/.240 with 2 HR's and 2 doubles, good for a .513 OPS. :eek:

:yikes:

westofyou
06-12-2013, 06:01 PM
If we are bringing Hanigan into this why not post his beautiful line?

He's having a Bill Plummeristic year

mdccclxix
06-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Hanny had a good May. June is still a little young. His season BABIP is .165!

NeilHamburger
06-12-2013, 07:00 PM
If Mesoraco can bump up his OPS just a little to .750 then he has tons of value at catcher. And considering his age and limited playing time I certainly feel that's likely over the next 2 years.

Vottomatic
06-12-2013, 07:10 PM
If Mesoraco can bump up his OPS just a little to .750 then he has tons of value at catcher. And considering his age and limited playing time I certainly feel that's likely over the next 2 years.

He doesn't have enough at-bats to qualify among catchers. But of qualifying catchers, there are 14. Mez would be 9th in OPS if he qualified among catchers.

NeilHamburger
06-12-2013, 07:14 PM
Where would .750 put him?

oregonred
06-12-2013, 07:20 PM
He's having a Bill Plummeristic year

I was thinking more Dave Van Gorderish or Dann Billardeloish.

_Sir_Charles_
06-12-2013, 07:22 PM
I was thinking more Dave Van Gorderish or Dann Billardeloish.

I'm liking this one just because of how fun it is to say Dann Billardeloish. :O)

Wonderful Monds
06-12-2013, 07:30 PM
It would scare the women and small children.


But I'll do it anyway

.163/.273/.240 with 2 HR's and 2 doubles, good for a .513 OPS. :eek:

At least he's reppin' the city with his OPS.

Vottomatic
06-12-2013, 11:21 PM
To be fair, Hanigan was playing hurt all of April.
He was healthy in May.
He's banged up badly again now in June.

By month:

April: 38 at-bats, .079 average, .261 OPS
May: 46 at-bats, .261 average, .772 OPS
June: 20 at-bats, .100 average, .400 OPS