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I(heart)Freel
12-11-2012, 10:38 PM
No wonder Bowden loves this deal- it's exactly one that he would have made, with trading for a bat and plugging him into a position he has seldom played.

I really love the idea of Choo leading off; not sure at all he can play CF. That leaves the Reds OF with: Choo, Bruce, Ludwick, Heisey and Paul. Does Heisey get traded away for a guy who is better defensively in CF? Paul played corner spots last year, if I recall.

This team played some great defensive baseball last year, both pitching and with the glove. I think this years team scores more but maybe gives up more, as well.

Center Field Free Agent List:

Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (33)
Michael Bourn (30) - declined qualifying offer
Josh Hamilton (32) - declined qualifying offer
Nyjer Morgan (32)
Scott Podsednik (37)
Grady Sizemore (30)
Andres Torres (35)

Might Walt+company sit back and see if the market allows for a late inning glove who hits lefties to come into the Reds' budget? It is kind of a shame, seeing as how Stubbs is exactly that guy.

But I wouldn't let that stop getting Choo!

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 10:38 PM
I mean, are we really complaining about the one weak bat in our lineup that still provides offensive pop and great defense?

When in Rome...

Benihana
12-11-2012, 10:38 PM
We should've drafted Lincecum :)

Superdude
12-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Yeah, and he also found steroids*

*allegedly

For every Chris Sabo who was a late bloomer, how many guys weren't? A metric ton.

What's wrong with Cozart now? We'd all love a .350 OBP form short, but he's got some pop and plays great D. A cheap and more than serviceable player IMO.

Brutus
12-11-2012, 10:39 PM
I mean, are we really complaining about the one weak bat in our lineup that still provides offensive pop and great defense?

Or that the Reds didn't instead acquire a 21-year old at a position they already have six of going into spring training with the best returning ERA in baseball of the group...

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:39 PM
JJ Cooper @jjcoop36
No. Not after trade like this. D'backs have few options at SS RT @dougdirt24: Think Didi goes to AAA to start 2013?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:39 PM
What's wrong with Cozart now? We'd all love a .350 OBP form short, but he's got some pop and plays great D. A cheap and more than serviceable player IMO.

What is wrong with him? He makes outs more than nearly every regular player in baseball. That is a significant wart on your resume.

Again, I am not against this trade. Simply saying that Cozart isn't exactly an ideal option either. He is a #8 hitter who isn't likely to improve on either side of the ball.

edabbs44
12-11-2012, 10:40 PM
I have no concerns with who we gave up. Prospects like Gregorius and Stubbs like players are scratch offs. Sure you may regret dealing them once in a while, but you'll win in the long run in making deals like this.

The Reds are a good team. This is a good team trade.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 10:40 PM
What is wrong with him? He makes out more than nearly every regular player in baseball. That is a significant wart on your resume.

Whoa... he makes out more? I knew he was a baseball player -- but I guess he's also a player (if you know what I mean)! :lol:

Superdude
12-11-2012, 10:41 PM
What is wrong with him? He makes out more than nearly every regular player in baseball. That is a significant wart on your resume.

That's not the only way of creating value. I feel like you're being a little narrowminded on this issue.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:41 PM
Whoa... he makes out more? I knew he was a baseball player -- but I guess he's also a player! :lol:

:lol:

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 10:41 PM
Seems like the every day lineup, bench and rotation may be pretty-much set (assuming they close the deal on Hanrahan). All that seems to be left is whittling down the bullpen, whihc is a minor embarrassment of riches.

CF Shin-Soo Choo
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
LF Ryan Ludwick
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
SS Zach Cozart
CA Ryan Hanigan

IF Jason McDonald
IF Jack Hanrahan
OF Chris Heisey
OF Xavier Paul
CA Devin Mesaraco

S1 Jonny Cueto
S2 Mat Latos
S3 Aroldis Chapman
S4 Homer Bailey
S5 Bronson Arroyo
LR Mike Leake/Sam Lecure
MR Nick Massett/Logan Ondrusek
R7 Jose Arredondo/Alfredo Simon
L7 Tony Cingrani/Ryan Dennick
R8 JJ Hoover
L8 Sean Marshall
CL Jonathan Broxton

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:42 PM
That's not the only way of creating value. I feel like you're being a little narrowminded on this issue.

Of course it isn't. But it is a real big part of it.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 10:42 PM
I mean, are we really complaining about the one weak bat in our lineup that still provides offensive pop and great defense?

LOL. I know. I'm not getting it.

I guess it's just one of those days. It bookends the "los rojos" thread feeling rather nicely I think. Over-dramatizing and over-blowing....Redszone's off-season traditions at their finest. :O)

kaldaniels
12-11-2012, 10:42 PM
Cozarts the new low man on the totem pole. Look out Zack, we're coming for you.

Brutus
12-11-2012, 10:43 PM
Seems like the every day lineup, bench and rotation may be pretty-much set (assuming they close the deal on Hanrahan). All that seems to be left is whittling down the bullpen, whihc is a minor embarrassment of riches.

CF Shin-Soo Choo
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
LF Ryan Ludwick
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
SS Zach Cozart
CA Ryan Hanigan

IF Jason McDonald
IF Jack Hanrahan
OF Chris Heisey
OF Xavier Paul
CA Devin Mesaraco

S1 Jonny Cueto
S2 Mat Latos
S3 Aroldis Chapman
S4 Homer Bailey
S5 Bronson Arroyo
LR Mike Leake
MR Nick Massett/Logan Ondrusek
R7 Jose Arredondo/Alfredo Simon
L7 Tony Cingrani/Ryan Dennick
R8 JJ Hoover
L8 Sean Marshall
CL Jonathan Broxton

Only minor point... I really don't see the Reds putting Leake in middle relief if he doesn't make the rotation. I think they'll use their last real chance at an option and let him start in AAA until needed.

Always Red
12-11-2012, 10:43 PM
Seems like the every day lineup, bench and rotation may be pretty-much set (assuming they close the deal on Hanrahan). All that seems to be left is whittling down the bullpen, whihc is a minor embarrassment of riches.

CF Shin-Soo Choo
2B Brandon Phillips
1B Joey Votto
LF Ryan Ludwick
RF Jay Bruce
3B Todd Frazier
SS Zach Cozart
CA Ryan Hanigan

IF Jason McDonald
IF Jack Hanrahan
OF Chris Heisey
OF Xavier Paul
CA Devin Mesaraco

S1 Jonny Cueto
S2 Mat Latos
S3 Aroldis Chapman
S4 Homer Bailey
S5 Bronson Arroyo
LR Mike Leake
MR Nick Massett/Logan Ondrusek
R7 Jose Arredondo/Alfredo Simon
L7 Tony Cingrani/Ryan Dennick
R8 JJ Hoover
L8 Sean Marshall
CL Jonathan Broxton

plus Sam LeCure!

RedEye
12-11-2012, 10:43 PM
nm

Benihana
12-11-2012, 10:44 PM
On the downside, I can't see the Reds making any more significant trades for a while...

...because they are completely set at every position. Wow.

M2
12-11-2012, 10:45 PM
2011 was the 1971 to the 2010.

At least that's how I rationalize it.

Me too. Now it's like 1973 all over again.

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 10:45 PM
plus Sam LeCure!

He was there at one point. Musta slipped off to the clubhouse to drain the lizard. :D

CySeymour
12-11-2012, 10:45 PM
In 149 big league games, Cozart is a 3 win player according to baseball-reference.com. I'll take that from a shortstop.

cincrazy
12-11-2012, 10:45 PM
If Zack Cozart is the most pressing of our concerns, I'd say we're a legitimate World Series contender, no?

RedEye
12-11-2012, 10:45 PM
Call me crazy, but I still think Walt might have something up his sleeve. He's still got Leake available, for example. There are some teams out there that could use a pitcher like that. And I think the FO values D too much not to at least try to rectify the CF situation...

Don't get me wrong. I think they are ready to go to war with a Bruce-Choo-Ludwick OF. But I think Walt will still sniff around to see if there is a way to get better.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:46 PM
If Zack Cozart is the most pressing of our concerns, I'd say we're a legitimate World Series contender, no?

Why wouldn't we be? We were before this trade.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 10:46 PM
Of course it isn't. But it is a real big part of it.

I'm just saying, he's probably a slightly below average major league shortstop and projects to at least maintain that for a while. He's not perfect, but it feels great to say he's our weakest link now.

cinreds21
12-11-2012, 10:47 PM
That would really suck for Leake (for him) to start back in Triple-A.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 10:47 PM
Only minor point... I really don't see the Reds putting Leake in middle relief if he doesn't make the rotation. I think they'll use their last real chance at an option and let him start in AAA until needed.

Absolutely. I fully expect to see Leake yo-yo'd up and down as needed this year to give Chapman all the rest he needs.

Always Red
12-11-2012, 10:47 PM
On the downside, I can't see the Reds making any more significant trades for a while...

...because they are completely set at every position. Wow.

Yep, it'll be spring training- after competition, they're going to have leftover relievers to swap for other spare parts or AAA depth.

Brutus
12-11-2012, 10:47 PM
On the downside, I can't see the Reds making any more significant trades for a while...

...because they are completely set at every position. Wow.

What will you do without proposing a Justin Upton deal this season? :thumbup:

Always Red
12-11-2012, 10:48 PM
That would really suck for Leake (for him) to start back in Triple-A.

and it's a great sign of the pitching depth this team has.

savafan
12-11-2012, 10:48 PM
In my lifetime, I can't recall a more exciting time to be a Reds fan than right now.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:49 PM
Steve Gilbert @SteveGilbertMLB
#Dbacks Towers says Gregorious is one of "premier shortstops in baseball." "We think we're a better ballclub today and in the future..."

Brutus
12-11-2012, 10:50 PM
Call me crazy, but I still think Walt might have something up his sleeve. He's still got Leake available, for example. There are some teams out there that could use a pitcher like that. And I think the FO values D too much not to at least try to rectify the CF situation...

Don't get me wrong. I think they are ready to go to war with a Bruce-Choo-Ludwick OF. But I think Walt will still sniff around to see if there is a way to get better.

They're not paying $14 million to Ludwick to sit the bench, nor will they trade Leake for someone that would only be platooning in center a quarter of the time.

Choo is their CF or Bruce will be if that doesn't work out.

edabbs44
12-11-2012, 10:50 PM
That would really suck for Leake (for him) to start back in Triple-A.

It's not like he hasn't had a chance to force a different decision.

marcshoe
12-11-2012, 10:50 PM
I'm blown away by Walt's ability to surprise by exceeding expectations. Feels good to be a Reds fan right now.

This ain't signing Eric Milton just to say you've done something.

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
I may be the only one, but I wouldn't mind seeing Walt deal a little of the "surplus" for a youngster with upside (and controlable years) - maybe a young 3B or corner OFer - a young starter or high-leverage bullpen arm might be nice too.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
Indians will be sending reds $3.5MM as well.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
What will you do without proposing a Justin Upton deal this season? :thumbup:

Seriously. Choo was probably my second favorite target of the offseason. And we still made our blockbuster trade with Arizona :beerme:


So the Reds can win the WS with Choo in CF and Ludwick in LF this year, then trade Leake, Ludwick and a prospect for Upton in the offseason. Plug him at LF alongside Hamilton and Bruce, and go for the 3-peat!

Caseyfan21
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
Rosenthal also just said on Twitter that Indians are sending ~$3.5 million to the Reds to account for the difference between Choo and Stubbs' salaries. Wow.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
Walt:


"It was very difficult giving up home-grown talent, but we think Choo can fill the missing parts in our lineup both offensively and defensively," Jocketty said. "He is an exciting player, and we expect him to set the table for Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Ludwick and the rest of our run producers."

Seems like Walt has a pretty good idea how he wants Dusty to make out that lineup card, eh?

edabbs44
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
What will you do without proposing a Justin Upton deal this season? :thumbup:

Maybe he plays fantasy baseball.

Bill
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
Checked what my memory was telling me. Choo did play CF for Seattle when he came up as a rookie. Confirms he played some CF in the minors. True a long time ago in a players life but it won't be a cold transition but as long as he is serviceable, the opb justifies the end move.

Tom Servo
12-11-2012, 10:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gq6ZcTyW4s

Video highlighting Choo's defensive abilities

RedEye
12-11-2012, 10:52 PM
Rosenthal also just said on Twitter that Indians are sending ~$3.5 million to the Reds to account for the difference between Choo and Stubbs' salaries. Wow.

This just keeps getting better. So Choo is almost a free rental for 2013.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 10:52 PM
In my lifetime, I can't recall a more exciting time to be a Reds fan than right now.

Personally, I think it would be even MORE exciting if you were able to recall a time NOT in your lifetime. That would be quite impressive. :thumbup:

Seriously though, I agree completely. I can't quite explain how happy I am right now. The ONE move I wanted to see made the past 2 years...and it just happened. The ONE glaring hole I kept seeing, day after day after day, and it just got filled in with a gold nugget.

Now....let's hope the MLB medical team of the year is on top of their game. STAY HEALTHY GUYS!!!!

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 10:53 PM
“@bradjohansen: More Jocketty: "it's fair to say this is a one year deal. We hope Billy Hamilton will be ready after this."

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 10:53 PM
Steve Gilbert @SteveGilbertMLB
#Dbacks Towers says Gregorious is one of "premier shortstops in baseball." "We think we're a better ballclub today and in the future..."

Not disagreeing with you Doug (as I've seen very little of Didi in action), but isn't that exactly what you'd expect a GM to say after acquiring a new player?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 10:54 PM
“@bradjohansen: More Jocketty: "it's fair to say this is a one year deal. We hope Billy Hamilton will be ready after this."

:beerme: Just make him a qualifying offer please.

The Voice of IH
12-11-2012, 10:54 PM
Cozarts the new low man on the totem pole. Look out Zack, we're coming for you.

This made me laugh.

I think this is a great move. And I think we should not forget that Billy Hamilton does know how to play short stop.

Sabo Fan
12-11-2012, 10:55 PM
One problem with this move - Choo sports the double ear flap helmet. Unacceptable.

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 10:55 PM
Love this move. Getting a cleanup and leadoff guy while moving Chapman to the rotation, my Christmas list is all checked off. Bring on March!!!

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:55 PM
Not disagreeing with you Doug (as I've seen very little of Didi in action), but isn't that exactly what you'd expect a GM to say after acquiring a new player?

I didn't say it to begin with. Just tossing it in there. It is similar to what I would expect to be said. Not sure I would say he is a premiere shortstop in baseball, but I do think he will be at least average and likely a little better than average.

reds44
12-11-2012, 10:56 PM
“@bradjohansen: More Jocketty: "it's fair to say this is a one year deal. We hope Billy Hamilton will be ready after this."
This is how you run a franchise.

Brutus
12-11-2012, 10:56 PM
:beerme: Just make him a qualifying offer please.

That's the great thing... they can make a qualifying offer knowing it won't be accepted. So they'll wind up getting a first round pick for Gregorius, essentially.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 10:56 PM
This made me laugh.

I think this is a great move. And I think we should not forget that Billy Hamilton does know how to play short stop.
I know I shouldn't say this after the Reds just said Choo would play center, but I can't see Hamilton being a guy Jocketty plays at shortstop. Too many errors.

PuffyPig
12-11-2012, 10:57 PM
I'm just saying, he's probably a slightly below average major league shortstop and projects to at least maintain that for a while. He's not perfect, but it feels great to say he's our weakest link now.

Accordin to ESPN, Cozart was tied for 11th in the majors among SS in WAR, tied for 5th in the NL.

That's above average.

Kc61
12-11-2012, 11:00 PM
Not disagreeing with you Doug (as I've seen very little of Didi in action), but isn't that exactly what you'd expect a GM to say after acquiring a new player?

Zack Cozart had the best UZR/150 rating of any regular player on the Reds. He was a finalist for the gold glove as a rookie. He hit 33 doubles and 15 homers, again as a rookie.

I can't believe I'm reading on this thread that he is a below average defender and that Gregorius is a better player.

This trade was a no-brainer for the Reds to make.

Reds now have Choo, Votto and Bruce hitting from the left side in the same lineup. Huge improvement, excellent trade.

Big Klu
12-11-2012, 11:02 PM
One problem with this move - Choo sports the double ear flap helmet. Unacceptable.

Bronson now has company.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 11:03 PM
Accordin to ESPN, Cozart was tied for 11th in the majors among SS in WAR, tied for 5th in the NL.

That's above average.

Good point. I was looking at the chart wrong. Either way, I'm content with Cozart even if he doesn't improve a bit.

The Voice of IH
12-11-2012, 11:04 PM
I know I shouldn't say this after the Reds just said Choo would play center, but I can't see Hamilton being a guy Jocketty plays at shortstop. Too many errors.

Keith Law said that Hamilton was not outstanding in center either. I would hope his glove would become better over time.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 11:04 PM
JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
Talked to two scouts who scouted Choo last year and both opined that Bruce would end up in CF and Choo in RF after Dusty evaluates them

AmarilloRed
12-11-2012, 11:04 PM
I'm a bit surprised Walt was so vocal about it being a 1 year rental.He usually like to hold things close to the vest.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 11:05 PM
Zack Cozart had the best UZR/150 rating of any regular player on the Reds. He was a finalist for the gold glove as a rookie. He hit 33 doubles and 15 homers, again as a rookie.

I can't believe I'm reading on this thread that he is a below average defender and that Gregorius is a better player.

This trade was a no-brainer for the Reds to make.

Reds now have Choo, Votto and Bruce hitting from the left side in the same lineup. Huge improvement, excellent trade.

Who said that Cozart was a below average defender?

And a lot of professional people in baseball would take Gregorius over Cozart, probably starting at some point this next season.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:06 PM
I'm a bit surprised Walt was so vocal about it being a 1 year rental.He usually like to hold things close to the vest.

Jocketty-ing for position in his negotiations with Boras next offseason?

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:06 PM
Keith Law said that Hamilton was not outstanding in center either. I would hope his glove would become better over time.

Well, it's only been a matter of a few weeks worth of playing there, right? Arizona fall league and that's it, correct?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 11:06 PM
So Doug, (for the record) you're not happy with the trade?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 11:07 PM
Keith Law said that Hamilton was not outstanding in center either. I would hope his glove would become better over time.

Well, he has played all of about 20 games there. He is still pretty raw out there. He should get better with experience.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:07 PM
So Doug, (for the record) you're not happy with the trade?

He said he was when I asked earlier. Just that he regretted losing DiDi.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 11:08 PM
So Doug, (for the record) you're not happy with the trade?

I am ok with the trade. I just think there could be consequences that some people are overlooking with it.

Kc61
12-11-2012, 11:08 PM
Who said that Cozart was a below average defender?

And a lot of professional people in baseball would take Gregorius over Cozart, probably starting at some point this next season.

Post #526 on this thread. Not you. Says Cozart is slightly below average shortstop.

If Cozart is hitting toward the bottom of the lineup, I'm very happy with him as the Reds' shortstop. Hopefully, Didi will do well too, a different type of player.

traderumor
12-11-2012, 11:08 PM
Choo in CF will likely burn us occasionally in bigger ballparks, but I don't think range will be an issue for him in GAB. And we likely do a Heisey to CF with Choo moving to LF in late inning defensive situations. The offensive upgrade suddenly makes this an above average lineup.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:09 PM
Well, he has played all of about 20 games there. He is still pretty raw out there. He should get better with experience.

That's what I thought. Just a few weeks. You can't really expect improvements in that short of a time. I think we'll have a much better handle on what he can do out there around the middle of this coming season.

Tony Cloninger
12-11-2012, 11:11 PM
Acquiring Choo is nothing to sneeze at....but to get $3.5 back as well....that's even better.

Doug....when are you ever happy about them trading any prospects. Choo is a solid player, you cannot get him for Grade B prospects, even in his walk year.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Acquiring Choo is nothing to sneeze at....but to get $3.5 back as well....that's even better.

Doug....when are you ever happy about them trading any prospects. Choo is a solid player, you cannot get him for Grade B prospects, even in his walk year.

I was thrilled about the Mat Latos deal. I am ok with this deal. :confused:

Adn Choo is much more than solid. I just don't think he is a center fielder.

traderumor
12-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Assuming everyone's healthy, the lineup should now have folks in more natural places:
Righty
Choo
Phillips
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan/Mes

Lefty
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Heisey
Hanigan/Mes

The Voice of IH
12-11-2012, 11:13 PM
Well, he has played all of about 20 games there. He is still pretty raw out there. He should get better with experience.

All I'm saying is that it's something to watch for this season, and that he is not starting from a very good place.

It's asking a lot of a player to suddenly change their position. Especially from the infield to outfield no?

757690
12-11-2012, 11:13 PM
Choo in CF will likely burn us occasionally in bigger ballparks, but I don't think range will be an issue for him in GAB. And we likely do a Heisey to CF with Choo moving to LF in late inning defensive situations. The offensive upgrade suddenly makes this an above average lineup.

Ludwick will probably need 35-50 games off throughout the season. Use some of them on the west coast trips, put Heisey in center, Choo in left.

Sabo Fan
12-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Bronson now has company.

Bronson's a pitcher though, we all know that doesn't count. A regular position player though? Who is he, Mark Lemke?

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Assuming everyone's healthy, the lineup should now have folks in more natural places:
Righty
Choo
Phillips
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan/Mes

Lefty
Phillips
Cozart
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Heisey
Hanigan/Mes

I would think Choo would get a few of the starts against lefties too, wouldn't he? Doesn't he have like a career .340 OBP against them?

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 11:14 PM
I'm stunned we got Choo for two marginal major leaguers.

Stubbs may be out of baseball before long if his numbers continue to trend downward. And Gregorius will never be anything more than a utility guy. No power. Doesn't hit for average. Just a good glove. He's Janish-lite.

Choo was a steal. Reds will be dealin' in 2013.

Tony Cloninger
12-11-2012, 11:16 PM
I was thrilled about the Mat Latos deal. I am ok with this deal. :confused:

Adn Choo is much more than solid. I just don't think he is a center fielder.

Yes, that is true you liked that deal better than the Marshall deal....which confused me though more....that you would be.

You said though that this could have serious ramifications later....which said to me, you were not that happy with it. My mistake./

Virginia Beach Reds
12-11-2012, 11:17 PM
Good luck to Drew Stubbs. One of the most perplexing talents the Reds have had on their roster in recent years. Love this trade. Good friend of mine (Indians fan) said you have a great player in Choo. Go Reds! Our glaring weakness is not so glaring any longer.

Roy Tucker
12-11-2012, 11:17 PM
Walt continues to deal redundent parts for needed parts.

Well done.

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 11:18 PM
Walt continues to deal redundent parts for needed parts.

Well done.

Well said. "Redundant part" :thumbup:

cinreds21
12-11-2012, 11:19 PM
“It’s something we’ll look at,” he said. “But we think Billy Hamilton will be ready (in 2014). That’s why we went with a guy with one year left, rather than someone we would control for two. Those guys would have cost more in players.”

Exactly what I like to hear.

traderumor
12-11-2012, 11:19 PM
I would think Choo would get a few of the starts against lefties too, wouldn't he? Doesn't he have like a career .340 OBP against them?
Sure, just generally looking at a splits type lineup.

traderumor
12-11-2012, 11:20 PM
Arroyo has got to be the happiest to have Choo. He had Bronson's number.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 11:20 PM
Post #526 on this thread. Not you. Says Cozart is slightly below average shortstop.

If Cozart is hitting toward the bottom of the lineup, I'm very happy with him as the Reds' shortstop. Hopefully, Didi will do well too, a different type of player.

ha that's me! I said he was ever so slightly below average overall. He's a great defender, and as someone later pointed out, his WAR was actually above average.

reds44
12-11-2012, 11:20 PM
Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal
#Reds not done. Still planning to add utility man.

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 11:20 PM
Somewhere, Joey Votto is smiling.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:21 PM
Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal
#Reds not done. Still planning to add utility man.

I called it! Sort of. But wait... what are Jason Donald and Emmanuel Burriss doing on the roster then?

cinreds21
12-11-2012, 11:22 PM
I called it! Sort of. But wait... what are Jason Donald and Emmanuel Burriss doing on the roster then?

Burris isn't on the roster. He probably means Hannahan.

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 11:22 PM
This is how you run a franchise.

The Reds offense did pretty well last season, but this year if they can replace Stubbs' .277 & Cozart's .288 OBP's with a .370+ from Choo and a .320-.330 from Phillips in front of a healthy Joey Votto, JV and the Reds are in for a heck of a season!

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:23 PM
All I'm saying is that it's something to watch for this season, and that he is not starting from a very good place.

It's asking a lot of a player to suddenly change their position. Especially from the infield to outfield no?

It's not as drastic a change as you'd think. Athletically, he clearly has the tools. It's simply a matter of learning to pick up the ball off the bat readily. Early on, his speed should cover up most of his mistakes. But reps alone will improve on his reads. My biggest concern defensively with Hamilton is how his arm plays in center. His legs & glove should be more than fine...they should be EXTREMELY fine.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:23 PM
Burris isn't on the roster. He probably means Hannahan.

Oh okay. So that means that they'll have a bench that looks something like this then?

Jason Donald
Jack Hannahan
Emmanuel Burriss
Chris Heisey
Xavier Paul
Devin Mesoraco

M2
12-11-2012, 11:24 PM
Here's a question: Is Heisey what the Reds need in a backup OF? Defense? Ability to hit LHPs?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 11:25 PM
This may sound strange to some but when the Reds make a big trade like this it is one of my favorite things of the year.

This may be the last big trade for some time- maybe 18 months or more. Can't imagine what will need to be acquired. Maybe a LF upgrade in 2014?

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:26 PM
Somewhere, Joey Votto is smiling.

Somehow I think he must have had an inkling of this sort of thing coming down the pipe when he inked that long-term deal.

Hoosier Red
12-11-2012, 11:26 PM
Arroyo has got to be the happiest to have Choo. He had Bronson's number.

I expect sometime early in the season for Arroyo to stop Choo in the dugout and say, "What the *bleep* do you mean you don't do that against everyone.?"
;)

Raisor
12-11-2012, 11:27 PM
I'd kiss Walt right on the lips if he'd let me.

Maybe even some heavy petting.

Don't tell my wife.

cinreds21
12-11-2012, 11:27 PM
Oh okay. So that means that they'll have a bench that looks something like this then?

Jason Donald
Jack Hannahan
Emmanuel Burriss
Chris Heisey
Xavier Paul
Devin Mesoraco

A bench usually only consists of five players, so probably no Burriss.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 11:28 PM
The Reds offense did pretty well last season, but this year if they can replace Stubbs' .277 & Cozart's .288 OBP's with a .370+ from Choo and a .320-.330 from Phillips in front of a healthy Joey Votto, JV and the Reds are in for a heck of a season!

I can't wait. This feels like one of those moves that can't be quantified by RC or any individual stat just because Choo fills a void so perfectly. 1-6 in this lineup is going to be an absolute bear to work through for opposing pitchers.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:28 PM
I'd kiss Walt right on the lips if he'd let me.

Maybe even some heavy petting.

Don't tell my wife.

ROFLMAO!!! Post of the night! :O)

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:28 PM
Here's a question: Is Heisey what the Reds need in a backup OF? Defense? Ability to hit LHPs?

Well, he does play all three positions. I would think it's sort of hard to find a 4th OF that does absolutely everything well because, you know, they don't last as a 4th OF for long.

I'm happy with Chris where he is. And that's a change -- since I was a regular of the "Give Heisey a chance to start!" brigade on this board for about two years. Bruce-Choo-Ludwick is a darn competent threesome, even if the D takes a slight step back.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 11:30 PM
I'd kiss Walt right on the lips if he'd let me.

Maybe even some heavy petting.

Don't tell my wife.

:laugh: I'd be down for a few drinks and some light necking.

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 11:30 PM
Another part of the deal is that Dusty made Cleveland promise they would bat Stubbs leadoff and Didi second, because the CFer always bats first and the SS bats second. :D

SirFelixCat
12-11-2012, 11:31 PM
Might be a mistake. 27 years old. Career .290 MLB OBP.

With his defense, I'll take it batting in the bottom third of the lineup.


What a huge get this was for our team! :happydance:

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:31 PM
Another part of the deal is that Dusty made Cleveland promise they would bat Stubbs leadoff and Didi second, because the CFer always bats first and the SS bats second. :D

Touché!

Tom Servo
12-11-2012, 11:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pG5WFHq_es



wat

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:32 PM
Another part of the deal is that Dusty made Cleveland promise they would bat Stubbs leadoff and Didi second, because the CFer always bats first and the SS bats second. :D

I think Arizona might get a bit upset if the Indians kept penciling in their starting shortstop as hitting 2nd on THEIR lineup card. There might even be a rule against that sort of thing. *grin*

Patrick Bateman
12-11-2012, 11:32 PM
Here's a question: Is Heisey what the Reds need in a backup OF? Defense? Ability to hit LHPs?

I touched on that earlier, in that Stubbs actually would have been a perfect compliment to Choo on the roster, but presumably the Indians were more interested in having Stubbs as a potential starter. I don't think Heisey is a great fit, and Paul fills a different role. I would think Jocketty would like to transfer Heisey for a better fitting piece, but easier said than done.

Vottomatic
12-11-2012, 11:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pG5WFHq_es



wat

Congrats. You found Choo's music for when he comes to the plate. :D

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 11:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pG5WFHq_es



wat

Okay, Tom....I want my wasted time returned to me, pronto. Seriously, what in the hell was that?!? :O) Korea's version of the JTM commercial?

yab1112
12-11-2012, 11:34 PM
Congrats. You found Choo's music for when he comes to the plate. :D

And my new ringtone.

Raisor
12-11-2012, 11:34 PM
ROFLMAO!!! Post of the night! :O)

you're welcome

Doc. Scott
12-11-2012, 11:36 PM
2011 was the 1971 to the 2010.

At least that's how I rationalize it.

Possibly. Making last year 72... And 2013 1973? Which Red will punch Bud Harrelson?

Raisor
12-11-2012, 11:36 PM
Asian television is just better than Western television.

It just is.

WVRedsFan
12-11-2012, 11:37 PM
My heart stopped when I read somewhere (Red Reporter?) that the trade included Homer. I'm thrilled that Walt made the trade. Kind of deal he made in StL. No more do we trade for junk. Solid move.

757690
12-11-2012, 11:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pG5WFHq_es



wat

Just like when Johnny Bench went on the Mike Douglas Show ;-)

RedsfaninMT
12-11-2012, 11:41 PM
gesundheit

Was listening to MLBradio on on the way home discuss the trade and now going through all the posts. BUT this was too funny not to give a :beerme:

MikeS21
12-11-2012, 11:43 PM
Not a fan of the trade. Not near as confident in Cozart as a long term solution at SS that most on here are. Have my doubts about Fraizer at 3B as well.

I'll have to "Choo" on this one for awhile.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 11:46 PM
Towers said Gregorius reminds him "of a young Derek Jeter."

Link (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8738415/shin-soo-choo-acquired-cincinnati-reds-three-team-deal-involving-cleveland-indians-arizona-diamondbacks)

WVRedsFan
12-11-2012, 11:48 PM
Not a fan of the trade. Not near as confident in Cozart as a long term solution at SS that most on here are. Have my doubts about Fraizer at 3B as well.

I'll have to "Choo" on this one for awhile.with all his "potential," Drew had to go. I'm just amazed that Cleveland wanted him. Maybe the change of leagues will help. Choo for $4.9 million is a steal. Cozart will be fine and Frazier proved his worth this year. If not, I have faith in Walt to make moves to correct any situation. No longer will we be waiting on some prospect to step up. We're ready.

Doc. Scott
12-11-2012, 11:51 PM
Choo will get a raise in arb to 7-8 mil. The Reds supposedly got 3.5 mil from the Indians to cover the difference between Stubbs and Choo's salaries.

Revering4Blue
12-11-2012, 11:51 PM
A major hole filled without dealing away one piece of our surplus of starting pitching.

This is Freaking A Awesome!

FWIW, judging by D-Back message board responses, they (D-Back fans) are not happy about dealing away Bauer for Gregorius, as they're not convinced that Gregorius will hit at the MLB level.

We'll see.

The Operator
12-11-2012, 11:51 PM
Holy crap!

I logged into check my email and see "Reds acquire..." and I was about to yawn and delete it until I saw the name involved. WOW.

Last offseason we got Latos, Marshall, and Madson. This offseason is off to a pretty good start as well.

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 11:52 PM
How about Mike Leake to the Red Sox for Bryce Brentz (I'd even toss in Ondrusek)?

corkedbat
12-11-2012, 11:54 PM
A major hole filled without dealing away one piece of our surplus of starting pitching.

This is Freaking A Awesome!

FWIW, judging by D-Back message board responses, they (D-Back fans) are not happy about dealing away Bauer for Gregorius, as they're not convinced that Gregorius will hit at the MLB level.

We'll see.

Or our future starters. I thought we'd lose one of Corcino or Cingrani at the very least to fill holes.

Doc. Scott
12-11-2012, 11:56 PM
I like Gregorius. But I'm not convinced he'll hit at the big-league level either- at least not for another season or two.

D-Man
12-11-2012, 11:57 PM
This is a dare-to-be-great move, and it isn't without risk. . . Yet, I love it.

This does leave some questions about OF defense and speed on the base paths--but those are discussions for another day.

The Voice of IH
12-12-2012, 12:04 AM
It's not as drastic a change as you'd think. Athletically, he clearly has the tools. It's simply a matter of learning to pick up the ball off the bat readily. Early on, his speed should cover up most of his mistakes. But reps alone will improve on his reads. My biggest concern defensively with Hamilton is how his arm plays in center. His legs & glove should be more than fine...they should be EXTREMELY fine.

This is good to hear, and of course I am cheering for the best case scenario.

Tony Cloninger
12-12-2012, 12:06 AM
Choo will probably play LF at least about 30-40 games....I would imagine. Ludwick is not going to start more than 140 games, and at least 10 of those will be as a DH. He will be rested, like last year. If Dusty plays it right....he does mostly on the road. I know Heisey is not a great CF but at least he is more used to playing it.

Topcat
12-12-2012, 12:06 AM
Love the Trade and the compensation that will be rfecouped when Choo is qualified. the Red's addressed the one glaring weakness at the top of the lineup. Bring on the season right now!

Chip R
12-12-2012, 12:13 AM
So, we get Choo and $3.5M and all we have to give up are Gregorious and Stubbs? I must be missing something. Does Choo have a broken leg? Is the Korean military going to draft him if they lose the WBC? Is he allergic to chili?

This is a great deal! I feared Choo when the Reds played CLE. I am glad he's with the Reds. It's too bad Stubbs regressed like he did but you can't say the Reds didn't give him every opportunity. Every off-season we heard he was going to get better and every year he got worse. I liked Gregorious from what I saw of him in September but you can't hold on to all your prospects.

*BaseClogger*
12-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Here's a thought: Given BP's double play tendencies and Choo's batting from the left-hand side, why not bat BP leadoff and Choo 2nd?

This is an interesting comment so I'll quote it 30 pages later.

I think any value added from avoided BP double-plays is negated from the extra PA Phillips might get against a LOOGY thanks to be sandwichted between two lefties...

cbowen2112
12-12-2012, 12:24 AM
They are not batting Choo in the 2 hole unless he fails at lead off, which stats shows, he flourishes there. Something like this will happen:

RF/CF Choo
2B BP
1B Votto
LF Ludwick
CF/RF Bruce
3B Frazier
SS Cozart
C Hanigan/Mes

I like that balance of L,R,L,R,L for the top 5 hitters!

Rotation of:
Cueto
Latos
Bailey
Chapman
Arroyo

Legit all around!

RedsManRick
12-12-2012, 12:25 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

oneupper
12-12-2012, 12:27 AM
Fantastic Trade. Awesome!
The offensive upgrade from Stubbs to Choo is what this team needed after scoring less than 700 runs last year. We got an asset for a liability.
And we got money. MONEY. $3.5 million. C'mon Walt, go out and buy something nice.

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 12:28 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

They will just whine about Choo's now. He isn't exactly a contact oriented hitter....

WVRedsFan
12-12-2012, 12:29 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

:beerme:

Adam Dunn II. I wish him (Drew) well, but I'd seen enough.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 12:31 AM
Brandon Phillips ‏@DatDudeBP

#RealTalk: @DidiG18 u are one of the #BEST SS I played next to & I played next to many! Sad to see u go but happy 4 your opportunity #DoWork

Brutus
12-12-2012, 12:32 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

Cleveland fans will have to deal with that now (Reynolds and Stubbs!)

Nathan
12-12-2012, 12:33 AM
Cleveland fans will have to deal with that now (Reynolds and Stubbs!)

Wonder what the team record for strike outs are.

lidspinner
12-12-2012, 01:04 AM
If disk learns how to hit we are going to see him at the mid season classic....but then again there are tons of guys just like him who can't hit well enought to stick around.

WVPacman
12-12-2012, 01:05 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

You can't tell me you was'nt getting tired of stubbs striking out 11 out of 14 abs? I don't don't care how much choo strikes out but it can't be as bad as stubbs.Stubbs is a great guy but it was time for him to go get a fresh start someplace else.I wish him nothing but the best.

WVPacman
12-12-2012, 01:13 AM
Dang I just thought of something now with choo and bruce in the outfield we will most defintely be ranked high with the most throw outs at home plate from our outfielders?

cincrazy
12-12-2012, 01:16 AM
Dunn struck out and was productive. Choo strikes out and is productive. Stubbs struck out and absolutely sucked. There's quite the difference. Yeah, it gets tiresome watching a guy have almost as much of an idea as me or you would at the plate. I wish him luck, he certainly has tools. But so did many a ballplayer that never amounted to much of anything.

The Voice of IH
12-12-2012, 01:20 AM
Dunn struck out and was productive. Choo strikes out and is productive. Stubbs struck out and absolutely sucked. There's quite the difference.

Can I put this as my signature for a little while?

corkedbat
12-12-2012, 01:26 AM
Wow, over 41,000 views in 8 hours. What's the record?

cincrazy
12-12-2012, 01:26 AM
Can I put this as my signature for a little while?

lol sure :).

WVPacman
12-12-2012, 01:31 AM
lol sure :).

I was going to if he was'nt!! :D

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 01:34 AM
Wow, over 41,000 views in 8 hours. What's the record?

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

Sea Ray
12-12-2012, 01:40 AM
I love getting Choo. How he fits into CF, we'll see but they'll work it out. What can you guys tell me about Jason Donald?

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 01:41 AM
I love getting Choo. How he fits into CF, we'll see but they'll work it out. What can you guys tell me about Jason Donald?

Has been good in the Minors. Has been pretty terrible in the Majors.

Sea Ray
12-12-2012, 01:44 AM
Has been good in the Minors. Has been pretty terrible in the Majors.

What are his skills? Obviously not pop in the bat but what's his throwing arm like? Foot speed?

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 01:47 AM
What are his skills? Obviously not pop in the bat but what's his throwing arm like? Foot speed?

More of a second baseman than shortstop. Fringy arm for short, not quite enough range for short. Can cover you there if you need it, but not someone you want playing there for a week straight.

cincinnati chili
12-12-2012, 01:49 AM
Me too. Now it's like 1973 all over again.

now, somebody go punch Bud Harrelson.

Blitz Dorsey
12-12-2012, 01:51 AM
Has been good in the Minors. Has been pretty terrible in the Majors.

He was solid in the Majors in 2011, but overall you're absolutely correct.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 01:54 AM
He was solid in the Majors in 2011, but overall you're absolutely correct.

Donald hits much better against lefties. Hannahan would be a good compliment.

DGullett35
12-12-2012, 01:56 AM
I work 3rd shift so I slept all day and I wake up and come to work and see this. Man this makes my offseason. 2 of the strongest OF arms in the game on our side now and we have a competent leadoff hitter.

Choo
DatDude
Votto
Ludwick
Bruce
Frazier
Cozart
Hanigan
P

what an opening day lineup. I like the Left-Right mixmatch throughout the order until we get to the 7 spot. If this team can stay healthy then the skys the limit. Im praying for no major injuries.

VR
12-12-2012, 01:56 AM
What are his skills? Obviously not pop in the bat but what's his throwing arm like? Foot speed?

He's Mike Trout compared to Miguel Cairo.

DGullett35
12-12-2012, 01:57 AM
He's Mike Trout compared to Miguel Cairo.

Im pretty sure Brent Lillibridge took over his spot as the tribes utility guy at the end of last season if that tells you anything

DGullett35
12-12-2012, 02:00 AM
Donald hits much better against lefties. Hannahan would be a good compliment.

I dont think we sign Hannahan now. We will probably stick with 5 bench guys barring injury. Those 5 would be IMO Burress, Donald, Paul, Heisey, and Mes. I would love to add Hannahan though and personally keep Donald in AAA. maybe thats Walts thinking but I read where they interviewed Donald after the trade and he said he was excited to go to a playoff team and so on. Maybe they have already told him hes most likely getting the utility role who knows.

Nathan
12-12-2012, 02:04 AM
I dont think we sign Hannahan now. We will probably stick with 5 bench guys barring injury. Those 5 would be IMO Burress, Donald, Paul, Heisey, and Mes. I would love to add Hannahan though and personally keep Donald in AAA. maybe thats Walts thinking but I read where they interviewed Donald after the trade and he said he was excited to go to a playoff team and so on. Maybe they have already told him hes most likely getting the utility role who knows.

I'd rather have Hannrahan as opposed to Burress. Burress seems more like Valdez 2.0

Bill
12-12-2012, 02:04 AM
Donald was expendable after the tribe dealt for Aviles. He can play 3B (and the outfield) but more a middle infielder.

Hannahan would still be good to have backing up 3B imo.

WVPacman
12-12-2012, 02:04 AM
nm

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 02:14 AM
He was solid in the Majors in 2011, but overall you're absolutely correct.

Not really. His .423 BABIP was good. He had a 7 times as many strikeouts as walks and no power at all.

11larkin11
12-12-2012, 02:23 AM
This is being nitpicky, but I hope Hanigan bats 7th and Cozart 8th, but I doubt it will happen. I just think with Hanigan's OBP, we could see some "Bloop and a Blast" from those two.

powersackers
12-12-2012, 02:26 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

I simply question this:
Is one year of Choo, playing out of position, worth a projected 15-year career of an above Avg. SS and a "toolsy" outfielder that was a 6 win player in 2010-11?

Hang a WS Championship banner in 2013? Yes it's worth it. Anything less, it's probably not worth it at all.

Nathan
12-12-2012, 02:32 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

I simply question this:
Is one year of Choo, playing out of position, worth a projected 15-year career of an above Avg. SS and a "toolsy" outfielder that was a 6 win player in 2010-11?

Hang a WS Championship banner in 2013? Yes it's worth it. Anything less, it's probably not worth it at all.

I don't see it as a 3 team trade, as Cleveland made 2 separate trades (The Reds/D-Backs didn't make any trade.) If you break it down that way, Cleveland pretty much fleeced the D-backs, and the Reds/Indians made a rather even trade (although I'd say the Reds got the best player out of it, even though it's only for one year)

Tom Servo
12-12-2012, 02:34 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

I simply question this:
Is one year of Choo, playing out of position, worth a projected 15-year career of an above Avg. SS and a "toolsy" outfielder that was a 6 win player in 2010-11?

Hang a WS Championship banner in 2013? Yes it's worth it. Anything less, it's probably not worth it at all.
What if we don't win the World Series, but Didi and Stubbs play more at their average than at their peak? Seems like you're making some large assumptions about their future.

Brutus
12-12-2012, 02:34 AM
I dont think we sign Hannahan now. We will probably stick with 5 bench guys barring injury. Those 5 would be IMO Burress, Donald, Paul, Heisey, and Mes. I would love to add Hannahan though and personally keep Donald in AAA. maybe thats Walts thinking but I read where they interviewed Donald after the trade and he said he was excited to go to a playoff team and so on. Maybe they have already told him hes most likely getting the utility role who knows.

Jocketty said tonight they're still looking for a utility guy, which would indicate they intend to still go after Hannahan.

Burris will likely wind up as organizational depth in Louisville.

Brutus
12-12-2012, 02:35 AM
Who cares who "wins" or "loses" a trade anyhow?

Did the Reds get better from this trade? Absolutely. Thus, they are winners.

Superdude
12-12-2012, 02:45 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

I simply question this:
Is one year of Choo, playing out of position, worth a projected 15-year career of an above Avg. SS and a "toolsy" outfielder that was a 6 win player in 2010-11?

Hang a WS Championship banner in 2013? Yes it's worth it. Anything less, it's probably not worth it at all.

Well I'd say we have a better chance of hanging a banner than Stubbs regaining four win productivity and Didi providing fifteen years of above average shortstop with the same team.

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 02:46 AM
Cozart had over 30 doubles. Decent home run power. Great defense. Maybe he'll never get on base at a great clip, but I would say he's an above average shortstop. May Didi be better than him? It's possible. But is he likely to be so much better that we rue the day we made this trade? I highly doubt that. LOVE this trade so much. I don't even care about the downgrade in center defensively. We see the Cards sacrifice D for offense all the time, and more often than not, it's worked for them.

Honestly, I agree with Doug that Didi has a great shot at becoming an above average SS. Didi is a legit top 100 prospect.
But when is Didi going to be an above average prospect? Probably not in 2013 when we need it.
Cozart is a great solution now. I agree with you, the power makes up for the lack of OBP, especially since he'll be batting #7 or #8 now. I agree Cozart is above average.

I absolutely LOVE this deal. Choo was probably the best possible option to add (for the short term and long term). I'm stunned that it only took Stubbs and Didi to make it happen. I like Didi, but he's a reasonable price to pay.

Man, I'm glad we didn't get Span or Revere now :lol:
If this lineup stays healthy, it's going to terrorize the league next year.

Ron Madden
12-12-2012, 02:55 AM
I like this deal..Love Choo's OBP at leadoof..

OnBaseMachine
12-12-2012, 02:55 AM
Absolutely love this trade for the Reds. I've long been a fan of Choo. I liked Stubbs and Didi, but I'm surprised the Reds were able to acquire Choo for those two.

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 02:58 AM
Keith Law said that Hamilton was not outstanding in center either. I would hope his glove would become better over time.

Keith Law is probably still upset because he predicted Hamilton to be a bust.
I remember his comment when Billy was drafted.. a sarcastic "Well, he's fast.."
as if the Reds were idiots.

BHam just started playing CF. I'm sure after playing a full season of it in AAA this year, he'll be a lot better.. Not saying you agree with KLaw, just a comment.

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 03:06 AM
My favorite part about this trade? Not having to listen to people whine about Stubbs' strikeouts.

:thumbup:
I didn't even think about that.
The Brennamens instantly become slightly less annoying.

I do wish Stubbs well.. Incredible athlete, I hope he gets his swing straightened out. Drew, you were frustrating at time, but I always had a soft spot for you.

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 03:12 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

.

This analysis made me lol


He’s [Stubbs] going to improve in 2013 and should be capable of putting up something north of 2.5 wins above replacement, or about Choo’s production last season.

Superdude
12-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Absolutely love this trade for the Reds. I've long been a fan of Choo. I liked Stubbs and Didi, but I'm surprised the Reds were able to acquire Choo for those two.

Where have you been OBM?! I haven't seen you around here in forever it seems like.

DGullett35
12-12-2012, 05:22 AM
"When I saw him, he reminded me of a young Derek Jeter," Towers said. "I was fortunate enough to see Jeter when he was in high school in Michigan. He's got that type of range, he's got speed, more of a line-drive-type hitter, and I think he's got the type of approach at the plate and separation to where I think there's going to be power there as well."

Kevin Towers really likes DiDi. He also said in the interview with MLB.Com that the only way he traded Bauer was for Gregorius. He lastly went on to say he had been talkin to Walt for a while now but they were not a match(what? no Didi for Upton??:)) I guess Antonetti called Towers on Mon. and said I can get Didi if you can let go of Bauer. Seems like all 3 teams got what they wanted. A win win for every organization.

RedsBaron
12-12-2012, 07:29 AM
Me too. Now it's like 1973 all over again.

1973? Now who can the Reds get to take the Pedro Borbon role of putting a bite on the opposition? ;)

membengal
12-12-2012, 07:35 AM
That was easily the best Reds birthday present I ever got.

No complaints on any level.

Looking forward to having a real OBP guy at leadoff. Makes me kinda weepy. No more "where have you gone Bip Roberts, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you" snark from me this year. Great news all around.

PuffyPig
12-12-2012, 07:40 AM
This guy thinks CLV wins the trade, Reds and Dbacks not so much.
http://releasepoints.com/2012/12/12/indians-win-in-three-team-deal/

I simply question this:
Is one year of Choo, playing out of position, worth a projected 15-year career of an above Avg. SS and a "toolsy" outfielder that was a 6 win player in 2010-11?

Hang a WS Championship banner in 2013? Yes it's worth it. Anything less, it's probably not worth it at all.

Don't forget the Reds should get a high draft pick from qualifying Choo at the end of the year. What's the value of a draft pick at the end of the first round?

Vottomatic
12-12-2012, 07:54 AM
The comparisons crack me up.

Gregorius = Jeter????

Give me a break.

jojo
12-12-2012, 08:05 AM
The comparisons crack me up.

Gregorius = Jeter????

Give me a break.

He clearly loves Gregorius.

This deal may have made them much better down the road. With all of the usual caveats, it made the Reds much better right now.

redsmetz
12-12-2012, 08:17 AM
That was easily the best Reds birthday present I ever got.

You'll have to share the trade with me. My oldest daughter told me it was made as a birthday present for me. The trade was just icing on the cake of a great birthday. Hope your birthday was equally as good.

Oh my goodness, how long until pitchers & catchers report?

Always Red
12-12-2012, 08:20 AM
Possibly. Making last year 72... And 2013 1973? Which Red will punch Bud Harrelson?

Todd Frazier, of course.

membengal
12-12-2012, 08:29 AM
You'll have to share the trade with me. My oldest daughter told me it was made as a birthday present for me. The trade was just icing on the cake of a great birthday. Hope your birthday was equally as good.

Oh my goodness, how long until pitchers & catchers report?

Thought of you too, redsmetz. It was a good birthday. Painlessly into year 42.

redsmetz
12-12-2012, 08:34 AM
Thought of you too, redsmetz. It was a good birthday. Painlessly into year 42.

Still young - I turned 16 the day you were born.

membengal
12-12-2012, 08:34 AM
Still young - I turned 16 the day you were born.

Young, I like that. Keep feeling the footsteps of AARP interest mailings not too far in the future...

membengal
12-12-2012, 08:35 AM
Have had "I am the Walrus" stuck in my head since the rumors hit twitter last night...and, yes, I know now its goo goo g'joob, but growing up, I always heard it as coo coo k'choo

Vottomatic
12-12-2012, 08:36 AM
Walt will have a dilemma if Reds dominate with Choo, and coast through playoffs and World Series.

If they let Choo walk under those circumstances, Billy Hamilton is going to come in with alot of pressure on him.

membengal
12-12-2012, 08:37 AM
Walt will have a dilemma if Reds dominate with Choo, and coast through playoffs and World Series.

If they let Choo walk under those circumstances, Billy Hamilton is going to come in with alot of pressure on him.

No need to go looking for trouble. If that happens, pretty sure it will be a nice problem to have.

cumberlandreds
12-12-2012, 08:43 AM
I just saw this trade this morning. I had it in an e-mail from Reds.com. What a great e-mail to see this early in the morning! This is a great trade for the Reds. He addresses the biggest need the Reds had. A leadoff hitter. It may diminish the defense in CF but the tradeoff in hitting should offset that. Also gives Dusty some options with platooning some with Choo and Ludwick if needed. The best part is the Reds didn't have to give up any pitching to get him. That's just amazing IMO. You never know how deals will eventually work out but at first look on this one Jocketty knocked one out of the park. I can't wait for opening day now!

membengal
12-12-2012, 08:46 AM
Agreed, the fact that they got this done without having to deal Stephenson, Cingrani, Corcino or Leake is amazing. Gives Walt ammo to make deals next off-season to fill holes if Choo walks and Hamilton has flopped. Plenty of flexibility. Love it.

Sea Ray
12-12-2012, 09:58 AM
More of a second baseman than shortstop. Fringy arm for short, not quite enough range for short. Can cover you there if you need it, but not someone you want playing there for a week straight.

So who's our SS when Cozart's out?

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 10:01 AM
The Towers obsession for Didi just tells you how the other team needs to like and want what you have. Not sure Cingrani was a match for Cleveland, ya know? It's not about rankings.

kaldaniels
12-12-2012, 10:06 AM
When another GM is foaming at the mouth at one of your non-elite prospects (and I'm talking like anyone not a Top 25 prospect in the game), you gotta parlay it into something. Well done.

traderumor
12-12-2012, 10:18 AM
"When I saw him, he reminded me of a young Derek Jeter," Towers said. "I was fortunate enough to see Jeter when he was in high school in Michigan. He's got that type of range, he's got speed, more of a line-drive-type hitter, and I think he's got the type of approach at the plate and separation to where I think there's going to be power there as well."

Kevin Towers really likes DiDi. He also said in the interview with MLB.Com that the only way he traded Bauer was for Gregorius. He lastly went on to say he had been talkin to Walt for a while now but they were not a match(what? no Didi for Upton??:)) I guess Antonetti called Towers on Mon. and said I can get Didi if you can let go of Bauer. Seems like all 3 teams got what they wanted. A win win for every organization.Jeter? I was thinking more like an Izturis comp. Slick fielder, will get a chance as a young guy, won't hit, will get a job to split time with the next great thing. Seriously, if he was young Derek Jeter, he would have forced his way onto the roster by now.

I also think Cozart is being unnecessarily beat up on about his OBP. He is a 6-8 hole hitter with power, which is now where he will be and he plays an above average shortstop. He has one full year of MLB under his belt, and this business of "there's a reason he was a 26 year old rookie" is a big old who cares? He is producing now and is entering his prime years.

Also, there is an argument to be made that Zack could be a .320-.330 OBP guy looking at his minor league pedigree. I'll take that with his power and glove work in the 7 or 8 hole, which is where he will now spend the bulk of his time in a healthy lineup.

Gregorious is currently a light hitting, slick fielding SS prospect. Yea, those are rare.

Sea Ray
12-12-2012, 10:20 AM
I see Didi much like Gookie Dawkins and Pokey Reese before him. The question is will he hit enough to be a major league starter? Both Pokey and Dawkins would have been stud SSs if that happened but in hindsight we know that it didn't. Until it does, Didi is Paul Janish. Cozart showed himself to be a decent starting SS last year, something Didi hasn't done yet

Blitz Dorsey
12-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Walt will have a dilemma if Reds dominate with Choo, and coast through playoffs and World Series.

If they let Choo walk under those circumstances, Billy Hamilton is going to come in with alot of pressure on him.

Haha. Talk about a problem we want to have!

REDREAD
12-12-2012, 10:35 AM
Walt will have a dilemma if Reds dominate with Choo, and coast through playoffs and World Series.

If they let Choo walk under those circumstances, Billy Hamilton is going to come in with alot of pressure on him.

I'm willing to risk it :)

Honestly, I am not worried at all about BHam.
Even if he doesn't set the world on fire with OBP, he'll be a useful player (just not the star we hope for).

redsmetz
12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
Jocketty-ing for position in his negotiations with Boras next offseason?

Not that you would necessarily disagree, but I think Walt's being frank, making it very clear that we're perfectly fine with Choo just being here one year. It's a can't lose proposition. If Choo performs as we anticipate he will, it gives us a clear lead off hitter even with the expected defensive drop off. And he will be a clear candidate to be tendered a qualifying offer. This year's number was $13.3M, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's $15M next year. If he accepts, we have him another year at an amount we'll have to work to shoehorn in to our budget (but one that I think is doable) and if he declines (every player offered this year, I think, declined), we get the draft picks.

And it does put Choo and Boras on notice that we don't need to keep him.

Cyclone792
12-12-2012, 10:44 AM
Just going on record to say that I'm loving the Choo deal. I think Didi will be a fine player, but the Reds need top of the lineup OBP and they need it now. Choo provides that.

The real key to a deal like this, though, is player development. The Reds have turned their world around the last five plus years in drafting and developing talent - it's a resource that keeps on giving. When you have the player development success that the Reds have had, you're able to dangle quality depth out to other clubs and use it to grab a guy like Choo that can help win now.

Keep drafting well, keep developing guys, and keep on winning ballgames.

IslandRed
12-12-2012, 10:46 AM
The Towers obsession for Didi just tells you how the other team needs to like and want what you have. Not sure Cingrani was a match for Cleveland, ya know? It's not about rankings.

Excellent point. A lot of people both in and out of baseball spend a lot of time ranking and evaluating players and prospects, but in the end, a guy's trade value is what one of the other 29 GMs will give for him. Nothing more, nothing less.

vaticanplum
12-12-2012, 10:50 AM
I don't want Walt Jocketty ever to leave. If he dies the Reds need to figure out some high-level Weekend at Bernie's stuff.

WildcatFan
12-12-2012, 10:53 AM
I don't want Walt Jocketty ever to leave. If he dies the Reds need to figure out some high-level Weekend at Bernie's stuff.

So, so terrible.

Laughed so, so hard.

PickOff
12-12-2012, 10:59 AM
With this transaction, Walt has managed to Dustyproof the lineup. The only hiccup could be if Rolen returns and Dusty does not make Frazier the starter.

With Choo at leadoff, Votto 3rd, Ludwick 4th, Bruce 5th - Dusty will almost certainly bat Phillips second due to his speed. Frazier's power therefore fits at 6th, with Cozart/Han-Mes bringing up the rear.

Dusty will have his fun when Heisey gives Choo a rest. I love this lineup and look forward to not seeing so many Dusty lineup discussions.

osuceltic
12-12-2012, 11:23 AM
My two cents:

Like the trade, but I do have concerns. I hate giving up Gregorious, but understand it. I think he's going to be a very good major league shortstop for a lot of years and those guys are tremendously valuable. Trading one for a one-year rental (if that's what this ends up being) is risky. I'm not nearly as high on Cozart as most here.

I'm not wild about compromising defense up the middle, but I also trust Jocketty enough to believe he wouldn't try it if he and his scouts did not feel Choo could handle the position. So, I'm giving the Reds and Choo the benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, it's safe to say the Reds have downgraded defensively at two positions -- center and third. The offense will have to make up for those extra runs allowed.

Having said all that, I'm excited for what it will mean in 2013. Choo is exactly what this team needed at the top of the order.

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 11:30 AM
My two cents:

Like the trade, but I do have concerns. I hate giving up Gregorious, but understand it. I think he's going to be a very good major league shortstop for a lot of years and those guys are tremendously valuable. Trading one for a one-year rental (if that's what this ends up being) is risky. I'm not nearly as high on Cozart as most here.

I'm not wild about compromising defense up the middle, but I also trust Jocketty enough to believe he wouldn't try it if he and his scouts did not feel Choo could handle the position. So, I'm giving the Reds and Choo the benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, it's safe to say the Reds have downgraded defensively at two positions -- center and third. The offense will have to make up for those extra runs allowed.

Having said all that, I'm excited for what it will mean in 2013. Choo is exactly what this team needed at the top of the order.

I was thinking of a-typical CF's and a decent body type comp for Choo would be Jon Jay or maybe even Laynce Nix. Not every CF is a lanky speedster or a little guy. Add in some Heisey relief and it will be okay. Not great, possibly barely good, but okay.

3b seems pretty natural for Frazier, I like him there more than LF. A full season will certainly show his true skill. I think he is a bit underestimated athletically, after all he was a SS.

Add in a possible surge from Mesoraco offensively, too.

Steve4192
12-12-2012, 11:35 AM
So who's our SS when Cozart's out?

Donald and/or Burris can handle the position on a short-term basis. My guess is Walt will sign a will sign a veteran SS to stash at AAA in case they need someone to cover the position for an extended period.

M2
12-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Can Choo be the rough defensive equivalent of John Jay in CF? Jay hardly sets the world on fire out there, but he's effective. If Choo can do that combined with his typical offense, his impact will be moderately huge.

Puffy
12-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Think about this - - the Reds were last in National League last year in OBP from leadoff position (.254). If Choo just does what he normally does, OBP of about .375, the Reds will be either first or second in leadoff position OBP.

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 11:50 AM
Think about this - - the Reds were last in National League last year in OBP from leadoff position (.254). If Choo just does what he normally does, OBP of about .375, the Reds will be either first or second in leadoff position OBP.

I love it.

Then you have late innings scenarios where perhaps the other team will burn their LHRP in the 7th or 8th just to get around Choo. All that strategy aside, you still have some good momentum from Choo and BP's xbh's, as well as Choo's walk rate and Phillips' bat control. Lot's of energy up there leading up to Votto in all kinds of situations. Hopefully, Ludwick truly can clean up what's there for him. I'm not sure how much he makes LHP pay for facing Votto. Really, this is mostly about Votto getting to 110 rbi's.

edit: check that: Luddy slashed .263 /.360/.576/.937 vs LHP in 2012

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 11:58 AM
Votto's splits vs RHP last year:

.359/.500/.609/1.109

:roll:

RichRed
12-12-2012, 12:07 PM
http://stewover.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/i-choo-choo-choose-you-600w.jpg

:luvu:

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Hopefully a lot more 2-0 leads in the 1st inning this year.

Is it in this team's character to play with a lead? 2010 and 2012 being marked by come back wins?

bucksfan2
12-12-2012, 12:12 PM
I really like this trade. This really improves the offense. Getting Choo puts someone at the top of the lineup who isn't allergic to 1b. The defense took hit, how much of a hit is a big question. If Choo can play a slightly below average CF then its a big win for the Reds.

The writing was on the wall for Stubbs. I think Walt knew he couldn't go into the 2013 season with him starting and leading off. As for Gregorious I don't mind losing him. He may end up being a better SS than Cozart but Zack isn't exactly a slouch. The Reds now have 5 years to find a suitable replacement for Cozart.

As for the question of who backs up Cozart, who cares? I guess the answer is who ever is playing SS in Louisville. I don't think you can go into a season worrying about who is the backup at every position. Gregorious value may have never been higher, no sense on holding onto him if he isn't going to see the field.

Now adding to my wish list, go sign Tony Plush. Heisey is going to see a ton of late inning action if he isn't starting. Heisey is an average CF defender, Plush is better. I would rather have him on the bench than Xavier Paul.

M2
12-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Is it in this team's character to play with a lead? 2010 and 2012 being marked by come back wins?

It's two sides of the same coin. A good bullpen stops late scoring, which allows your team to keep scoring for comeback wins. And, when you've got a lead, that good bullpen protects it.

Steve4192
12-12-2012, 12:29 PM
Now adding to my wish list, go sign Tony Plush. Heisey is going to see a ton of late inning action if he isn't starting. Heisey is an average CF defender, Plush is better. I would rather have him on the bench than Xavier Paul.

Morgan made sense as a platoon partner for Stubbs. I don't think he makes nearly as much sense now that we have a left-handed hitting CF. I'd rather see the Reds go after a power bat to replace Paul.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 12:32 PM
One thing that might not be worth forgetting - Ryan LaMarre bats right handed. He could be ready for the majors at some point this year, and reportedly plays pretty good defense in CF. Chris Heisey is likely a better option right now, but in case there is an injury of some sort, I wouldn't rule out LaMarre as a backup CF.

westofyou
12-12-2012, 12:38 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=19139



Here's some more scouting detail on Gregorius, courtesy of BP prospect person Mark Anderson:

Gregorius moves well to both sides, displaying good instincts and first-step quickness and making his range a strong positive. His hands are soft and he reads hops well, allowing him to make plays cleanly. He adds in plus arm strength, giving him an above-average overall defensive profile.

At the plate, Gregorius makes easy contact but lacks the strength to impact the ball and consistently drive it to the outfield. He is an aggressive swinger who won’t work deep into counts or take many walks, and he would be well-served to develop a better plan at the plate. There is very little power projection in Gregorius’ game.

Gregorius may be able to hit only at the bottom of the order, leaving some scouts to project him as a second-division starter and possibly only a utility player. He shouldn’t be viewed as a frontline player with impact potential.

M2
12-12-2012, 01:03 PM
All right, predictions:

Reds - Choo's bat is as advertised. He'll have a shaky April in the field, leading some to insist his dWAR is -1,000,000, but he'll get the hang of things and play steady out there for the rest of the season. Jason Donald turns out to be one of those sneaky good utility players, the kind the Cardinals are always pulling out of their hat.

Indians - Bauer fights control issues all season and speculation arises that he might need to make a bullpen conversion. Stubbs' flaws continue to overwhelm his strengths and he gets non-tendered after the season. Fat Matt Albers (he of the nickname announcers dare not speak out loud) pitches well enough and gets dealt away this summer. Shaw serves as a bullpen innings eater.

DBacks - Gregorius' glove proves ready, but he struggles at the plate. Cliff Pennington gets most of the SS work in 2013. Sipp gives the team a working LOOGY. Anderson settles into his career as a AAA 1B.

thatcoolguy_22
12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
Being that I live in Korea and they televise every Choo game, I'm stoked! Also the reds will see a boost in merchandise sales. There are more Indians hats/jerseys seen around Seoul than local Kleague teams. Just an added bonus.

WJ never ceases to amaze.

11larkin11
12-12-2012, 01:22 PM
Dusty's obsession with L-R-L-R-L is going to come in handy late innings now. Either Brandon sees more lefties, Joey sees more righties, or a team burns their bullpen in one inning.

If its the late inning of a close game, and the opposing manager brings in a LOOGY to face Choo, do you PH him with Heisey?

Doc. Scott
12-12-2012, 01:24 PM
One thing that might not be worth forgetting - Ryan LaMarre bats right handed. He could be ready for the majors at some point this year, and reportedly plays pretty good defense in CF. Chris Heisey is likely a better option right now, but in case there is an injury of some sort, I wouldn't rule out LaMarre as a backup CF.

As a backup. LaMarre has been viewed as a "tweener" since even before he was drafted- and while he runs and gets on base well, he lacks power. He'll be 24 all season and has never hit more than six homers per year in three as a pro.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 01:28 PM
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

And I've yet to watch it. Still no interest to.

M2
12-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Can we start referring to Jason Donald as The Donald? No need to beat around the bush on this. We're all going there at some point. Everything this guy does, he does classy.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 01:36 PM
I like this deal..Love Choo's OBP at leadoof..

Actually Ron...that's what we had last season. Lead-OOF! Punch to the kidneys. :O)

Bill
12-12-2012, 01:40 PM
Choo started slow at the plate last year as he did the prior year too. Some casual fans may be questioning the move after he misplays a couple in center early and is struggling some at the plate.

Donald has usually failed to impress in the many chances he has been given, but he will be an improvement no doubt in the utility spot for the Reds.

Cleveland is good about trading for young starters and realizing later they are better off in the pen. Bauer though is different. He has 4 or 5 above average pitches and is young, stubborn, but young enough to gain the control (which he showed more of in college).


All right, predictions:

Reds - Choo's bat is as advertised. He'll have a shaky April in the field, leading some to insist his dWAR is -1,000,000, but he'll get the hang of things and play steady out there for the rest of the season. Jason Donald turns out to be one of those sneaky good utility players, the kind the Cardinals are always pulling out of their hat.

Indians - Bauer fights control issues all season and speculation arises that he might need to make a bullpen conversion. Stubbs' flaws continue to overwhelm his strengths and he gets non-tendered after the season. Fat Matt Albers (he of the nickname announcers dare not speak out loud) pitches well enough and gets dealt away this summer. Shaw serves as a bullpen innings eater.

DBacks - Gregorius' glove proves ready, but he struggles at the plate. Cliff Pennington gets most of the SS work in 2013. Sipp gives the team a working LOOGY. Anderson settles into his career as a AAA 1B.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 01:49 PM
Have had "I am the Walrus" stuck in my head since the rumors hit twitter last night...and, yes, I know now its goo goo g'joob, but growing up, I always heard it as coo coo k'choo

You made me look it up Mem. I'm a Beatle-maniac...and I also always thought it was coo coo k'choo. To be honest, I'm not sure I believe the internet lyrics on that one. I'm sticking with coo coo k'choo. It's just...WRONG, otherwise. :O) Happy belated btw.

westofyou
12-12-2012, 01:55 PM
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/12/terry_plutos_morning_sports_bl.html



Speaking of watching, the Reds want Choo to replace Stubbs in center. They will regret that move, because one reason the Indians were able to deal for Choo was that he struggled in center for Seattle. He also was inconsistent last season for the Tribe in right. Stubbs and Michael Brantley will give the Indians superb speed in the outfield, regardless of who plays center.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 01:56 PM
As a backup. LaMarre has been viewed as a "tweener" since even before he was drafted- and while he runs and gets on base well, he lacks power. He'll be 24 all season and has never hit more than six homers per year in three as a pro.

Agreed- as a backup. I never saw LaMarre with significantly more upside than Heisey. Just pointing out that we have another backup CF that hits righty in the system and possibly ready to step in if necessary.

Steve4192
12-12-2012, 02:01 PM
As a backup. LaMarre has been viewed as a "tweener" since even before he was drafted- and while he runs and gets on base well, he lacks power. He'll be 24 all season and has never hit more than six homers per year in three as a pro.

I don't care about his offensive profile. If he can hit lefties a little bit and play plus defense, he would be a perfect late-season complement to Choo. He would also make a nice long-term backup to Hamilton.

That said, if some GM gets it in his head that LaMarre is a legit difference maker (like Towers did with Gregorius), I take what I can get for him in a trade. If not, I'm content with him being a quality backup CF.

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2012, 02:04 PM
I'd still imagine that Jay Bruce ends up logging some innings in CF over the course of the season.

Choo - L
Phillips - R
Votto - L
Ludwick - R
Bruce - L

That's a pretty cool little run there. Wouldn't exactly call it "Murderer's Row," but I'll be very happy if it turns out to be "Involuntary Manslaughter Alley."

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 02:08 PM
I'd still imagine that Jay Bruce ends up logging some innings in CF over the course of the season.

Choo - L
Phillips - R
Votto - L
Ludwick - R
Bruce - L

That's a pretty cool little run there. Wouldn't exactly call it "Murderer's Row," but I'll be very happy if it turns out to be "Involuntary Manslaughter Alley."

Haha, which is also better than last year's "Fleeing the Scene of the Crime Circle".

WildcatFan
12-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Haha, which is also better than last year's "Fleeing the Scene of the Crime Circle".

Which quickly turned into "Expired Tags Cul-De-Sac" when Joey went down.

CySeymour
12-12-2012, 02:17 PM
I'd still imagine that Jay Bruce ends up logging some innings in CF over the course of the season.

Choo - L
Phillips - R
Votto - L
Ludwick - R
Bruce - L

That's a pretty cool little run there. Wouldn't exactly call it "Murderer's Row," but I'll be very happy if it turns out to be "Involuntary Manslaughter Alley."

I see what you did there

Benihana
12-12-2012, 02:19 PM
I don't care about his offensive profile. If he can hit lefties a little bit and play plus defense, he would be a perfect late-season complement to Choo. He would also make a nice long-term backup to Hamilton.

That said, if some GM gets it in his head that LaMarre is a legit difference maker (like Towers did with Gregorius), I take what I can get for him in a trade. If not, I'm content with him being a quality backup CF.

Agreed. I see LaMarre as the heir to Heisey, so long as he can maintain a .700-.750 OPS in the majors as a 4th OF.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 02:24 PM
I'd still imagine that Jay Bruce ends up logging some innings in CF over the course of the season.

Choo - L
Phillips - R
Votto - L
Ludwick - R
Bruce - L

That's a pretty cool little run there. Wouldn't exactly call it "Murderer's Row," but I'll be very happy if it turns out to be "Involuntary Manslaughter Alley."

Against RHP, this part of the lineup is pretty close to Murderer's Row. It would be better if Phillips weren't a DP man, but I'm not sure there are many teams that can match it.

Over the last three years, against righties, Choo has a .403 OBP and a .918 OPS.

Over the last three years, against righties, Votto has a .446 OBP and a 1.038 OPS.

Over the last three years, against righties, Bruce has a .337 OBP and an .879 OPS.

The offense against righties was transformed by this move.

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 02:25 PM
Please start the season early.

traderumor
12-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Against RHP, this part of the lineup is pretty close to Murderer's Row. It would be better if Phillips weren't a DP man, but I'm not sure there are many teams that can match it.

Over the last three years, against righties, Choo has a .403 OBP and a .918 OPS.

Over the last three years, against righties, Votto has a .446 OBP and a 1.038 OPS.

Over the last three years, against righties, Bruce has a .337 OBP and an .879 OPS.

The offense against righties was transformed by this move.
And considering the traditional splits run in the 70/30 range, it should make this offense very good.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 02:29 PM
And considering the traditional splits run in the 70/30 range, it should make this offense very good.

Keep in mind also that Phillips and Ludwick do pretty well against righties for right hand hitters. Murderer's Row, I say.

vaticanplum
12-12-2012, 02:40 PM
That's a pretty cool little run there. Wouldn't exactly call it "Murderer's Row," but I'll be very happy if it turns out to be "Involuntary Manslaughter Alley."

CE, you are on fire lately. More Spanish please.

11larkin11
12-12-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't think you'll see as many DatDudeDP's while he's in the 2 hole. At the top of the order he looks to get on base more often. He starts hitting into DPs when he's in the 4 hole and hitting for power.

Tom Servo
12-12-2012, 02:50 PM
"Speaking of watching, the Reds want Choo to replace Stubbs in center. They will regret that move"

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/12/terry_plutos_morning_sports_bl.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Bill
12-12-2012, 02:56 PM
Choo has been known to take poor routes in the outfield.

Expectations should be low but it would not surprise me that Bruce eventually ends up covering center and Choo returns to the corner.


http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/12/terry_plutos_morning_sports_bl.html