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dougdirt
12-14-2012, 05:02 PM
If you are being told that you sometimes come across as arrogant, and you come back with a comment like this one, well, I think you deserve whatever gets thrown your way when your opinions are wrong.

Go for it then. Personally, though, I don't get anything extra from "in your facing" someone because they were strong or confident in their stance on something. Maybe you and others do. I prefer to just let them be wrong.

_Sir_Charles_
12-14-2012, 05:17 PM
Okay, maybe I'm missing something. But did people on here really assume that Doug was stating facts about what Didi was going to turn out being? That he WOULD BE a +.700 ops bat? Foregone conclusion? I certainly didn't see that anywhere. If you guys can't see that someone is simply posting their opinion on what someone may become when they're talking about a prospects' future, then IMO you're simply looking to stir things up and start an argument. "IMO" and "Possibly" and such things should be implied in any discussion about a prospect's future. Heck, most everything that I type on the internet could have a "IMO" attached to it...because guess what, I'm stating what I think. This whole discussion is beyond silly, but then again, this is just "my opinion." *rolls eyes*

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2012, 05:25 PM
Post #942:


I don't care what a good number of you think about him being an old rookie.

Nobody sees any condescention there?


Within two seasons, Gregorius is going to be better than Cozart is.

Is this not presented as fact? Especially in consideration of the remainder of the post basically tearing down WM for even suggesting that Cozart and the fact he is established could be considered the more valuable piece?

I'm just saying, there is a reason that people LOVE to bring back old incorrect predictions made by Doug specifically. When you put it on a tee, and push in everyone's faces until they can't see the light of day, I find it difficult to complain when it comes back at you.

REDREAD
12-14-2012, 05:26 PM
The Reds are going to kick some serious booty in the NL next year with Choo at leadoff!
:thumbup:

RANDY IN INDY
12-14-2012, 05:27 PM
Post #942:



Nobody sees any condescention there?



Is this not presented as fact? Especially in consideration of the remainder of the post basically tearing down WM for even suggesting that Cozart and the fatc he is established could be considered the more valuable piece?

Yep

puca
12-14-2012, 05:36 PM
This site would be much better if people only made completely irrefutable posts like "I think if Didi can become a decent hitting shortstop he will be a decent hitting shortstop". It goes without saying that the above is just my opinion.

wheels
12-14-2012, 05:38 PM
This is all what makes baseball so much fun.

There isn't any other sport where trades are made and you can get ~1000 posts made on the nuances and assumptions and implications and predictions of trading a AAA shortstop. People get in here and endlessly wrangle over the trade.

But, we're all fans and we love this stuff and we thrive on it. We *like* endlessly wrangling and carrying points to the most extreme reaches of the universe. Sometimes people get too serious or get their noses out of joint, but its because we love this sport. And the fun thing about RedsZone is that it is a time machine where you can go back in time and see all the arguments pro and con before the story all unfolded. Some people end up correct and some people end up way off.

My wife laughs at me because sometimes we're standing in the checkout line at Target or Costco and I'm on my phone reading RZ and muttering under my breath and how some people are full of crap and she asks me "why do you bother so much about that stuff?". And then I go on this big rant about this player or trade and she looks at me like I've got a 3rd eye in my forehead. And then I realize how much of a fan I am and how much the Reds are part of the fabric of my life. Have been since the age of 12 and I think I'm pretty much stuck with it to my grave. But I think, overall, its a pretty good way to pass time and it keeps me out of bars.

Carry on... just me thinking out loud.

Why on Earth would you want to stay out of bars?

westofyou
12-14-2012, 05:42 PM
The Reds are going to kick some serious booty in the NL next year with Choo at leadoff!
:thumbup:

Bank on it

dougdirt
12-14-2012, 05:47 PM
Post #942:



Nobody sees any condescention there?



Is this not presented as fact? Especially in consideration of the remainder of the post basically tearing down WM for even suggesting that Cozart and the fact he is established could be considered the more valuable piece?

I'm just saying, there is a reason that people LOVE to bring back old incorrect predictions made by Doug specifically. When you put it on a tee, and push in everyone's faces until they can't see the light of day, I find it difficult to complain when it comes back at you.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99639

Nearly every post in the 3 Bold Predictions for 2013 thread is "presented as fact" then. But of course they aren't. People just assumed, as they should, that they are being presented as "I think......"

Gallen5862
12-14-2012, 05:48 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

The Angels have a surplus of outfielders following their agreement with Josh Hamilton, and there’s reason to believe GM Jerry Dipoto will make a deal to balance out his roster. The Angels are “very likely” to trade an outfielder such as Peter Bourjos or Mark Trumbo for a pitcher, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter). Depending on the return, either player could be moved. Trumbo seems less available than Bourjos, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter).


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#AsGg7v6dss3LAbrK.99

Both Bourjos and Trumbo will remain under team control through 2016 and won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season. Earlier today, Dave Cameron of FanGraphs explained that Bourjos closely resembles Cameron Maybin and suggested he’d be a worthwhile pickup for a team in need of a center fielder.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#AsGg7v6dss3LAbrK.99

_Sir_Charles_
12-14-2012, 05:55 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99639

Nearly every post in the 3 Bold Predictions for 2013 thread is "presented as fact" then. But of course they aren't. People just assumed, as they should, that they are being presented as "I think......"

Exactly. Nobody (outside of Karnac of course *grin*) can see the future. To imply that someone is claiming that they can because they don't add in the "safety words" is kinda silly.

RANDY IN INDY
12-14-2012, 05:55 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99639

Nearly every post in the 3 Bold Predictions for 2013 thread is "presented as fact" then. But of course they aren't. People just assumed, as they should, that they are being presented as "I think......"

And the thread is labeled with "bold predictions." Bold being the key word.

_Sir_Charles_
12-14-2012, 05:57 PM
And the thread is labeled with "bold predictions." Bold being the key word.

Just like a discussion about prospects with the key word being "prospects", right?

westofyou
12-14-2012, 06:16 PM
Exactly. Nobody (outside of Karnac of course *grin*) can see the future. To imply that someone is claiming that they can because they don't add in the "safety words" is kinda silly.

If absolutes aren't intended then folks shouldn't speak in absolutes.

No amount of verbal gerrymandering will change that fact

puca
12-14-2012, 06:23 PM
If absolutes aren't intended then folks shouldn't speak in absolutes.

No amount of verbal gerrymandering will change that fact


I'm confused is that your opinion or is it a fact?

_Sir_Charles_
12-14-2012, 06:27 PM
You do realize we're simply chatting on an internet message board and not typing up our college doctorate dissertation....right? I wasn't aware that we had to choose our words quite so carefully in such a casual environment. Apparently I was mistaken.

"None of the previous content should be construed as facts, these are all opinions or thoughts that I believe to be true even though they may not actually be true. Some things that I may believe to be facts were actually information gathered from the internet which does not have any sort of fact checking guru supervising it. Reader beware."

Maybe we should all include this phrase in our signatures? Lots of absolutes are quoted around here as facts but they're just bits of information we've gathered off of the net. Yet we're trusting that information as factual....how many people have actually done the research to verify that these things are accurate? I sure don't. There could be some guy at baseballreference.com who is dyslexic and has completely screwed up everybody's projections for Billy Hamilton going forward. Oh darn.

Semantics. I think a bit of common sense should simply be applied.

westofyou
12-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Wait... this is a chat board??

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2012, 06:56 PM
Look, the question was posed as to why Doug is constantly being slammed.

I provided an answer that most people seem to agree with, in that he could work on his tone and condescention, as it seems most people share that viewpoint.

You guys can keep your fingers in your ears, but, don't be surprised if the same conversation keeps coming up.

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2012, 06:56 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99639

Nearly every post in the 3 Bold Predictions for 2013 thread is "presented as fact" then. But of course they aren't. People just assumed, as they should, that they are being presented as "I think......"

Ya, I think you must just have a reading comprehension issue if you don't understand the difference in the tone of the two threads.

dougdirt
12-14-2012, 07:14 PM
Ya, I think you must just have a reading comprehension issue if you don't understand the difference in the tone of the two threads.

So now it is tone, not that I didn't state it was an opinion?

Look, I get that I make strong statement. I don't know why I wouldn't. If I don't believe in what I am saying, why should I say it? Why should anyone?

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2012, 07:42 PM
So now it is tone, not that I didn't state it was an opinion?

Look, I get that I make strong statement. I don't know why I wouldn't. If I don't believe in what I am saying, why should I say it? Why should anyone?

Well, from prior posts it was clear that I was talking about both (hence discussion of condescension).

I'm saying there are more tactful ways of making an argument while still being confident/strong minded. I'm just saying, you get into these arguments more than anyone, I'm suggesting you may want to reconsider your tact if you want to prevent having to defend yourself on the manner every few months.

We come here to read other's opinions and arguments, therefore we should all be a little bit more respectful and mindful when someone is willing to engage in thoughtful discourse.

With that, I'm done here. I initially meant to come in here to mediate and help improve the discourse, and ended up getting into an argument about an argument.

Raisor
12-14-2012, 07:43 PM
This is awfully meta for this thread isn't it?

cincrazy
12-14-2012, 07:44 PM
Soooooooooooo about that Choo trade....

Cedric
12-14-2012, 08:23 PM
So now it is tone, not that I didn't state it was an opinion?

Look, I get that I make strong statement. I don't know why I wouldn't. If I don't believe in what I am saying, why should I say it? Why should anyone?

Keep posting exactly like you always have.

cincrazy
12-14-2012, 08:44 PM
I think people need to just stop taking things personally. There's a lot me and Doug haven't agreed on over the years, and we've gone back and forth a few times on a couple of different things. But you know what? I have a ton of respect for him. He does a hell of a job with what he does, and while he makes a strong case for his statements, I don't find him disrespectful. So maybe he's convinced Didi will be better than Cozart. Who cares? His opinion. If he tells you you're wrong, agree to disagree and move on. Quite frankly he brings a lot of insight to the board and knows a LOT about prospects that most of us don't, so I don't know what good poo-pooing him does.

Fact is, the Reds are in a damn good spot. Can't we just enjoy it instead of breaking out the pitchforks and going after people, especially those that bring a lot of good qualities to the board?

kaldaniels
12-14-2012, 09:08 PM
I think people need to just stop taking things personally. There's a lot me and Doug haven't agreed on over the years, and we've gone back and forth a few times on a couple of different things. But you know what? I have a ton of respect for him. He does a hell of a job with what he does, and while he makes a strong case for his statements, I don't find him disrespectful. So maybe he's convinced Didi will be better than Cozart. Who cares? His opinion. If he tells you you're wrong, agree to disagree and move on. Quite frankly he brings a lot of insight to the board and knows a LOT about prospects that most of us don't, so I don't know what good poo-pooing him does.

Fact is, the Reds are in a damn good spot. Can't we just enjoy it instead of breaking out the pitchforks and going after people, especially those that bring a lot of good qualities to the board?

Although I've already said I don't agree with the way he states things at times, I totally agree with all the positives you have just listed about the man.

traderumor
12-14-2012, 09:45 PM
I think people need to just stop taking things personally. There's a lot me and Doug haven't agreed on over the years, and we've gone back and forth a few times on a couple of different things. But you know what? I have a ton of respect for him. He does a hell of a job with what he does, and while he makes a strong case for his statements, I don't find him disrespectful. So maybe he's convinced Didi will be better than Cozart. Who cares? His opinion. If he tells you you're wrong, agree to disagree and move on. Quite frankly he brings a lot of insight to the board and knows a LOT about prospects that most of us don't, so I don't know what good poo-pooing him does.

Fact is, the Reds are in a damn good spot. Can't we just enjoy it instead of breaking out the pitchforks and going after people, especially those that bring a lot of good qualities to the board?Yea, well maybe that's the problem, is that the respect doesn't seem to go both ways. I'm right because I'm right, I'm the expert, you can't possibly challenge my opinions because I research this stuff, isn't real respectful.

RANDY IN INDY
12-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Just like a discussion about prospects with the key word being "prospects", right?

No, not really. This thread doesn't mention anything about prospects or bold predictions, although one was made, rather boldly, about Gregorious and Cozart.

Superdude
12-14-2012, 10:06 PM
Wait... this is a chat board??

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chris+hansen&um=1&hl=en&tbo=d&rlz=1C1CHFA_enUS484US486&biw=1281&bih=702&tbm=isch&tbnid=Vz4uMfF2I6mq0M:&imgrefurl=http://socialmention.com/search%3Fq%3D%2522Chris%2BHansen%2522%26filter_sou rce%3Dphotobucket%26start%3D15&docid=55OCqiL8N8VxAM&imgurl=http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/rc1/Misc/chrishansen.jpg&w=512&h=640&ei=iunLUMTMO6-10QHqqICwDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=339&vpy=141&dur=820&hovh=251&hovw=201&tx=118&ty=122&sig=114217550722771583261&page=1&tbnh=152&tbnw=124&start=0&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:172 Imagine picture of Chris Hansen...joke foiled by my failure to understand technology.

westofyou
12-14-2012, 10:28 PM
http://www.google.com2 Imagine picture of Chris Hansen...joke foiled by my failure to understand technology.

M2
12-14-2012, 11:46 PM
Whines? Please. I probably have my opinions attacked on this site more than anyone (at least on the baseball side of the forum). There is no whining.

Hopefully some day you can go back in time and untype that.

dougdirt
12-15-2012, 12:10 AM
Hopefully some day you can go back in time and untype that.

If I could go back in time, why on Earth would I begin to think about using it for that?

M2
12-15-2012, 12:26 AM
If I could go back in time, why on Earth would I begin to think about using it for that?

You can make it a multi-stop tour.

kheidg-
12-15-2012, 12:27 AM
I came to this thread to find some insightful news or thoughts on the Choo trade and have found a glorified pissing match.

Moderators, please close this thread.

Caveat Emperor
12-15-2012, 12:32 AM
http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/smiley-face-popcorn.gif

I still think it's cool that Venus is the only planet in the solar system that rotates clockwise.

Roy Tucker
12-15-2012, 12:40 AM
In my business, I've worked with many brilliant people. Like, world-class, triple digit patents, state of the art, leader in the industry, wrote the RFCs kind of guys. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I don't hold a candle to them. I've learned to listen very carefully to what they say and not as much as how they say it.

On the flip side, you have to be very careful as to who you expose them to. Sometimes customers or business types don't like being told how wrong they are in explicit and great detail. There is the message and then there is the way you deliver the message. These brilliant types get mad at me because I step in and say "what he really means is blah blah blah" and phrase things in a more palatable way. They go "yeah, that's what I said". But in the first case, the customer is ready to call security to throw us out and in the second case, they are happy as clams. Comes with being a middle child.

Cooper
12-15-2012, 12:41 AM
Don't close the thread- stop reading it if you don't like it - i love it ...it's great theatre....and it's a really good match.

thatcoolguy_22
12-15-2012, 02:47 AM
I would like to come to Doug's defense here. Regardless of whether he is right or wrong in how he stated his opinion, it's his. Take it for what its worth. However you need to understand that he follows the minors more closely than any other poster on this board (maybe Redsof72 follows reds guys more but not the whole top 500). To the point my buddy (who is an Orioles fan) knows of him and his minor league website. If Doug says Didi will eventually be better than Cozart, then I believe it until someone (or myself) can convince me otherwise. /rant

Sidenote- I have already spotted a few brand new Reds hats around Seoul. This is major sports news over here.


I am completely happy with the trade. Choo is exactly what this team needed and I can't wait for 2013's OD. Go Redlegs!!

Scrap Irony
12-15-2012, 08:17 AM
In my business, I've worked with many brilliant people. Like, world-class, triple digit patents, state of the art, leader in the industry, wrote the RFCs kind of guys. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I don't hold a candle to them. I've learned to listen very carefully to what they say and not as much as how they say it.

On the flip side, you have to be very careful as to who you expose them to. Sometimes customers or business types don't like being told how wrong they are in explicit and great detail. There is the message and then there is the way you deliver the message. These brilliant types get mad at me because I step in and say "what he really means is blah blah blah" and phrase things in a more palatable way. They go "yeah, that's what I said". But in the first case, the customer is ready to call security to throw us out and in the second case, they are happy as clams. Comes with being a middle child.

In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

membengal
12-15-2012, 08:37 AM
Don't close the thread- stop reading it if you don't like it - i love it ...it's great theatre....and it's a really good match.

Agreed. And, frankly, probably necessary. Airing stuff out sometimes very helpful.

Dan
12-15-2012, 09:14 AM
http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/smiley-face-popcorn.gif

I still think it's cool that Venus is the only planet in the solar system that rotates clockwise.

I'm thinking The Hunger Games has a strong chance to win the Best Picture Oscar this year.

_Sir_Charles_
12-15-2012, 09:37 AM
In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

IMO, "blowback" isn't what he's getting. He's getting jumped on. When people are going back and bringing up the Stewart-Cy Young thing several years after the fact just to dig that knife in a little bit deeper and twist is both petty and childish. And it's not an uncommon thing for it to be brought up by multiple posters. I'm done with this topic except to say freaking ease up guys.

mth123
12-15-2012, 09:39 AM
Been pretty busy and haven't had time to reply, but I've read the whole thread so here goes:

Choo:

Huge upgrade. I think he'll be passable in CF and will be a huge upgrade to the offense. He gets on base, hits against RHP, his skillset would seem to work on the road in addition to GABP. I think it was M2 a whole bunch of posts back that mentioned John Jay. I think that may be a good comp. He adds productivity to the offense and does allright in CF. Of course, I'd expect about 20 to 30 more points of OBP and 40 or 50 more points of Slugging from Choo.

Stubbs:

Maybe the most timid player I've ever watched. He looks pleasing and smooth on defense, but pulls up and just doesn't make the catch far too often. He does go gap to gap really well, but isn't so hot going in and back IMO. On offense, he lets too many meatballs go by for a called strike and just doesn't have the ability to hit when he's behind in the count. He may get it together and become that power - speed force we all hoped for, but I don't think it would have ever happened in Cincy.

Didi/Cozart:

Put me down for thinking its a shame that Didi had to go, but you have to give up something to get something. I share the concerns about Cozart. I think he's a solid starting SS who adds an occassional homer and struggles to get on base. I've long compared him to Alex Gonzalez in his Marlin Days. He'll have years where he may be a borderline All Star and probably have a few as below average due mostly to things like BABIP or HR/FB rate. I am a skeptic about much improvement at his age. I'm actually concerned that he may have a Stubbslike career path. Older rookies are many times out of tricks by the time the reach the big leagues and when the league adjusts they have nothing to counter with. Cozart seems pretty baseball smart (much different than Stubbs) so I think he'll be OK, but probbaly not much better than what we've seen. I also wonder if Didi's legend has grown more than it should. I actually think that Didi and Cozart would have made a good complementary tandem that could combine to give a team well above average play at SS while hiding each others weaknesses.

SS Depth:

If Cozart goes down for an extended period, I do think the answer is not in the organization (though I wouldn't be opposed to Hamilton if no one else is available). I think the foremost consideration is getting some one to make all the plays. If we're not overly concerned about offense, there are guys in every organization who are major league capable defenders. There's a Cesar Izturis or Paul Janish behind every tree. The hit would be on offense, but the team has a top 6 with Choo, Phillips, Votto, Ludwick, Bruce and Frazier to survive.


I love the deal and the draft pick when Choo leaves town will be the gift that keeps on giving.

Scrap Irony
12-15-2012, 10:29 AM
IMO, "blowback" isn't what he's getting. He's getting jumped on. When people are going back and bringing up the Stewart-Cy Young thing several years after the fact just to dig that knife in a little bit deeper and twist is both petty and childish. And it's not an uncommon thing for it to be brought up by multiple posters. I'm done with this topic except to say freaking ease up guys.

Posters bring up Stewart-as-Cy-Young as an example of posters getting too amped up about prospects and about making silly proclamations and couching them as facts.

Before you were a part of the board, Sir Charles, there was a first-born son bon mot. This was brought about by another poster's insistence that a particular Red pitcher would never win 15 games. He did.

In other words, it's not always about doug, but about posters who state adamantly their opinion, then continue to argue said opinion even years later. Often after the issue has been settled definitively.

Redszone has a very high standard and an extremely long memory. Facts are demanded. Opinions without merit mostly ignored. That's one of the reasons, IMO, this board has survived a decade plus while other sports' boards are literally here today, gone tomorrow. It's one of the reasons this is perhaps the best sports' board on the internet.

If he doesn't like it, doug can always choose to post on his own site and leave this one alone. Or, if mods really do think he's being picked on, Rule Five can be invoked and those posters can be kicked out.

Personally, were doug to throw out a mea culpa once in a while, I'd guess posters who "jump on" him would decrease. But the attitude he shows-- "confident," he says-- doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

Obviously, that's my opinion and means next to nothing to anyone, particularly doug himself. This is strictly an opinion and can be safely ignored.

Roy Tucker
12-15-2012, 11:28 AM
In this analogy, I'm assuming doug is the brilliant person telling the rest of us how wrong we are about prospects.

If you meant it that way, that's fine.

However, because of his supposed brilliance, shouldn't his predictions stand up to sctrutiny days, weeks, months, or years later?

His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

I don't know what I meant. I was drunk. It made sense then. :)

But yeah, if you set yourself up as an expert, express things in absolutes, and do so in a not-so-tactful way, yeah, you better be darn accurate or else you're setting yourself up like a bowling pin.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is human nature and it will continue to happen. C'est la vie.

westofyou
12-15-2012, 11:55 AM
I don't know what I meant. I was drunk. It made sense then. :)

But yeah, if you set yourself up as an expert, express things in absolutes, and do so in a not-so-tactful way, yeah, you better be darn accurate or else you're setting yourself up like a bowling pin.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is human nature and it will continue to happen. C'est la vie.

Yep, there are more ways to skin a cat than just one way

If the source refuses to realize that it's understandable that it ruffles some again and again.

And as far as "easing up" I'll assume that call should come from a moderator or site owner, not a self appointed ombudsmen

dougdirt
12-15-2012, 12:25 PM
His predictions are no better-- and oft-times much worse-- than most of the minor league posters on this board.

If you couch yourself as some kind of expert, shouldn't you expect blowback when wrong?

Can you have it both ways?

I will stack up my track record against anyone, as long as that anyone, is also talking about probably 150 Reds prospects every single year and making statements about them and their future. If they aren't, and I doubt any of them are, of course I am going to be "worse" with a track record. Most guys only talk about the top 10 guys. I talk about almost every single guy, have 30,000 posts here and even more on my website that is easily searchable, so it makes for an easy target to show where I am wrong or right.

And in the prospect game, I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I will say it again: Everyone is wrong. The guys that get paid by Major League baseball teams to do prospecting are wrong probably as often as they are right. We aren't dealing with math here. We are dealing with predicting the future based on the past.

I guess my whole thing still is, why do people still "in your face, you were wrong" things? "Expert" or not, I still don't get it.

Bill
12-15-2012, 01:02 PM
There should be a wager, perhaps the only way to settle the stalemate if it is arrogance or just being right. In the next two years if Didi can OPS .750, no one on Redszone shall mention the cy young award won by Stewart. If Didi fails, Doug must preface all statements with perhaps, imo, etc.

dougdirt
12-15-2012, 01:04 PM
There should be a wager, perhaps the only way to settle the stalemate if it is arrogance or just being right. In the next two years if Didi can OPS .750, no one on Redszone shall mention the cy young award won by Stewart. If Didi fails, Doug must preface all statements with perhaps, imo, etc.

Pass.

jojo
12-15-2012, 01:24 PM
Maybe it should be pointed that Zach Stewart doesn't inform anything about Didi per se....

Just because Doug was wrong about Stewart (and i mean his argument about Stewart was flawed at the time of the discussion regardless of what the benefit of hindsight allows one to say about the trade today), it doesn't really mean his arguments in this thread should be rejected. Suggesting otherwise is neither fair nor sound logic.

camisadelgolf
12-15-2012, 02:01 PM
Here's a bet I'd like to offer people: if you don't like the way a person posts, I bet you can't block him. If you're right, you don't have to read that person's posts. If you're wrong, you're even more annoying than the posts from the person you don't like. I apologize for adding to the noise, but can we get back to baseball? Jeez.

Does anyone suspect the Reds will play Choo over Bruce in center for the sheer fact that Choo is seen as a rental, and therefore, the Reds don't care about long term injury to his legs?

_Sir_Charles_
12-15-2012, 02:43 PM
Posters bring up Stewart-as-Cy-Young as an example of posters getting too amped up about prospects and about making silly proclamations and couching them as facts.

Before you were a part of the board, Sir Charles, there was a first-born son bon mot. This was brought about by another poster's insistence that a particular Red pitcher would never win 15 games. He did.

In other words, it's not always about doug, but about posters who state adamantly their opinion, then continue to argue said opinion even years later. Often after the issue has been settled definitively.

Redszone has a very high standard and an extremely long memory. Facts are demanded. Opinions without merit mostly ignored. That's one of the reasons, IMO, this board has survived a decade plus while other sports' boards are literally here today, gone tomorrow. It's one of the reasons this is perhaps the best sports' board on the internet.

If he doesn't like it, doug can always choose to post on his own site and leave this one alone. Or, if mods really do think he's being picked on, Rule Five can be invoked and those posters can be kicked out.

Personally, were doug to throw out a mea culpa once in a while, I'd guess posters who "jump on" him would decrease. But the attitude he shows-- "confident," he says-- doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

Obviously, that's my opinion and means next to nothing to anyone, particularly doug himself. This is strictly an opinion and can be safely ignored.

:beerme:

Nice post. I will say that Doug has stated on numerous occasions that a prospect didn't turn out as he thought. So why he should have to do a mea culpa on one that hasn't come to fruition or even one that has I don't get. Projecting any prospect is inherently a glimpse into the future based on current data. It's a guideline as to what we COULD expect.

The reason Doug's valued on this board isn't because he's an "expert" or not...it's because he does PERSONAL RESEARCH on these guys. He's not just passing along info he's read on the net from some named/unnamed source. Will he be wrong? Absolutely, and he'll be one of the first to admit that. But I don't get the attitude by some here that he should not have strong opinions or voice strong opinions. Why should he sugar-coat his comments to make them more palatable? And mostly, why do some have to do the "ha ha ha...you were wrong. You're an idiot!" routine? They may not intend it in that vein, but it's certainly the way it comes across.

I guess my biggest beef with all of this is this instancy that when he is stating his projection of a young player people are reading it like he's stating a fact. He's stating his belief and his strong opinion. I just don't get how people can't understand that automatically.

RANDY IN INDY
12-15-2012, 02:59 PM
The interesting thing is you mentioned that "they may not intend it in that vein, but it's certainly the way it comes across." That goes both ways.

jojo
12-15-2012, 03:10 PM
Here's a bet I'd like to offer people: if you don't like the way a person posts, I bet you can't block him. If you're right, you don't have to read that person's posts. If you're wrong, you're even more annoying than the posts from the person you don't like. I apologize for adding to the noise, but can we get back to baseball? Jeez.

Does anyone suspect the Reds will play Choo over Bruce in center for the sheer fact that Choo is seen as a rental, and therefore, the Reds don't care about long term injury to his legs?

Best post of the millennium.

It seems the Reds will give Choo every opportunity to give redszoners a reason to argue about defense.

Tadasimha
12-15-2012, 05:51 PM
It seems the Reds will give Choo every opportunity to give redszoners a reason to argue about defense.

What this reminds me of is when the Cubs shifted Kosuke Fukudome to center from right when they signed Milton Bradley for right. That was at times not pretty to watch but by the end of the season he was decent out there. I fully expect Choo to make some pretty bad plays in center during spring training and into the first part of the season. His speed will make up for inexperience in center, though, and his bat and the run scoring potential will more than make up for the defensive drop-off.

dunner13
12-15-2012, 05:56 PM
If the tigers can get to the world series with Cabera at third and Prince at first we should be fine with Choo in center.

dougdirt
12-15-2012, 11:22 PM
If the tigers can get to the world series with Cabera at third and Prince at first we should be fine with Choo in center.

Defensively, those positions aren't nearly as important.

Walt Jocketty has said that the Reds will also look at Bruce in CF in the spring and decide from there. I think that is a really good idea. At least look at see who is better. I don't really like the idea of either one there, but I am glad that they are at least talking out loud with the idea of looking at both guys as options.

DGullett35
12-16-2012, 03:22 AM
Watching alot of Indians games I seen Choo have trouble on balls hit to the right center gap. It wasnt like it happened all the time but sometimes he did take the wrong route or had a late break. He makes up for that with his cannon though. I think he will be servicable in center especially with GABP not being too big. Choo may have a little trouble in LA and in San Fran but for the most part he will do a decent job IMO. I just wonder what the outfiekld will look like when say Ludwick gets a day off. Does Choo move to left and Heisey/Paul to center? It will be interesting. In the long run I think our OF defense takes a slight hit but will still be good enough to get the job done.

lollipopcurve
12-16-2012, 08:33 AM
In the long run I think our OF defense takes a slight hit but will still be good enough to get the job done.

Slight hit might be right, but I see little chance of it being more than slight. I think Stubbs' contribution in CF has been overvalued in all the handwringing about what Choo might do out there.

Vottomatic
12-16-2012, 08:42 AM
Holy crap. I haven't read this thread for days, and I got to wade through a pissing match. Fun.

Back to the trade. I can't wait for Spring Training. This upcoming season is going to be alot of fun.

Reds got rid of a bust of a first rounder in Stubbs and a future good glove, no hit utility SS..........and have positioned themselves to win it all, with several options still available such as Chapman may start or close.

I haven't been this excited and CONFIDENT about the Reds in a long, long while.

Blitz Dorsey
12-17-2012, 12:37 PM
One thing that might not be worth forgetting - Ryan LaMarre bats right handed. He could be ready for the majors at some point this year, and reportedly plays pretty good defense in CF. Chris Heisey is likely a better option right now, but in case there is an injury of some sort, I wouldn't rule out LaMarre as a backup CF.

Haha! Only a Michigan fan would think LaMarre might be ready for MLB this coming season. Will he even be ready for Louisville in 2013? Looking at his numbers from last year, I think he needs to repeat Double-A and prove he can hit there first. He had a .708 OPS in 482 ABs in 2012 at Pensacola. What about that makes you believe he will be ready for the Big Leagues at any point in 2013?

Sorry, the Reds have drafted extremely well. But one they clearly missed on, IMO, was LaMarre. Very disappointing numbers for a second-round pick:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=534606

dougdirt
12-17-2012, 01:20 PM
Haha! Only a Michigan fan would think LaMarre might be ready for MLB this coming season. Will he even be ready for Louisville in 2013? Looking at his numbers from last year, I think he needs to repeat Double-A and prove he can hit there first. He had a .708 OPS in 482 ABs in 2012 at Pensacola. What about that makes you believe he will be ready for the Big Leagues at any point in 2013?

Sorry, the Reds have drafted extremely well. But one they clearly missed on, IMO, was LaMarre. Very disappointing numbers for a second-round pick:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=534606

LaMarre played with a foot injury all season in 2012. I think it certainly hampered his numbers. The guy doesn't have anything resembling a powerful swing though, so unless he makes some mechanical changes, the power isn't going to be there. But, he was a little slower last year than normal and it probably did cost him some slugging. His numbers, last season at least, probably aren't the most accurate portrayal of his true talent.

I don't want to go out and say that he has been a successful pick so far, but I don't think I am comfortable saying he is a "clear miss" either. Clear miss guys aren't holding their own in AA two years after being drafted. They are struggling in A ball.

Blitz Dorsey
12-17-2012, 03:51 PM
LaMarre played with a foot injury all season in 2012. I think it certainly hampered his numbers. The guy doesn't have anything resembling a powerful swing though, so unless he makes some mechanical changes, the power isn't going to be there. But, he was a little slower last year than normal and it probably did cost him some slugging. His numbers, last season at least, probably aren't the most accurate portrayal of his true talent.

I don't want to go out and say that he has been a successful pick so far, but I don't think I am comfortable saying he is a "clear miss" either. Clear miss guys aren't holding their own in AA two years after being drafted. They are struggling in A ball.

I disagree when talking about a college player who was drafted, especially one drafted in the second-round. You should be doing more than "holding your own at AA" 2 years after being a second-round pick from the college ranks. LaMarre has struggled at every level. The link I included in my previous post is to his career numbers in the minors. When has he ever been good? When has he ever made you say "That was a good second-round pick"? In 2011, in 460 ABs, he posted an OPS of .720. I see a pattern. He also strikes out a heck of a lot, especially for someone with almost zero power.

dougdirt
12-17-2012, 04:28 PM
I disagree when talking about a college player who was drafted, especially one drafted in the second-round. You should be doing more than "holding your own at AA" 2 years after being a second-round pick from the college ranks. LaMarre has struggled at every level. The link I included in my previous post is to his career numbers in the minors. When has he ever been good? When has he ever made you say "That was a good second-round pick"? In 2011, in 460 ABs, he posted an OPS of .720. I see a pattern. He also strikes out a heck of a lot, especially for someone with almost zero power.

There is a difference between being a good pick and being a bust. There is a rather large in between area. He falls in there for me. The game of baseball is changing and it seems a lot of people still aren't taking notice. If you play up the middle with good defense, you can go out and OPS .700 and have value. Why can't LaMarre be that kind of guy? To bring this thread full circle, who says he can't do what Cozart did, and be an iffy hitter with good defense at a premium position? If he can do that, and I don't see any real reason to suggest it isn't a possibility, then he isn't a bust or anything like it.

I don't know, the term bust gets tossed around too often. Devin Mesoraco was called a bust several years in a row. Fast forward another 18 months and he clearly wasn't. Bust doesn't mean "not living up to what I had hoped".

Blitz Dorsey
12-17-2012, 04:46 PM
There is a difference between being a good pick and being a bust. There is a rather large in between area. He falls in there for me. The game of baseball is changing and it seems a lot of people still aren't taking notice. If you play up the middle with good defense, you can go out and OPS .700 and have value. Why can't LaMarre be that kind of guy? To bring this thread full circle, who says he can't do what Cozart did, and be an iffy hitter with good defense at a premium position? If he can do that, and I don't see any real reason to suggest it isn't a possibility, then he isn't a bust or anything like it.

I don't know, the term bust gets tossed around too often. Devin Mesoraco was called a bust several years in a row. Fast forward another 18 months and he clearly wasn't. Bust doesn't mean "not living up to what I had hoped".

Who used the word "bust" in this discussion except for you? I wouldn't go as far as to call LaMarre a "bust", but I'm confident in saying he's been a big disappointment as a second-round pick. I bet there's no question the Reds' brass would concur with that. I think there is a difference between "bust" and a "miss." LaMarre was a "miss." Not a complete bust, but never someone that's going to be anything more than filler at the AAA level most likely. Nothing about his numbers reflect someone that is going to have a long Big League career (or one at all). I'm sure LaMarre will get his shot to play in the Big Leagues one day, but it won't be 2013 with the Reds IMO. He's not even close to ready. If they are going to roll the dice on a young guy in 2013, it will be Billy Hamilton. I don't think he's ready either, but I'd rather take my lumps with clearly the CF of the future rather than LaMarre this year. And we're only talking worst-case scenario if Choo gets hurt and they need to call up one of the kids.

This begs another question: With both Hamilton and LaMarre centerfielders who clearly need another year in the minors, who plays where in 2013? Does Billy go to Louisville and LaMarre repeats at Pensacola? Or do they bring Billy along slowly since this is a new position for him and Billy starts back at Pensacola and LaMarre starts at Louisville? Can't have them both at Louisville since you want Billy taking as many reps as possible in CF (and LaMarre is a CF all the way). They are going to be on different teams to begin the 2013 season. My guess is they will go slow with Hamilton and he'll be at Pensacola. LaMarre will be at Louisville. Then when LaMarre struggles at Louisville, he'll eventually be replaced by Hamilton. Not sure what would happen to LaMarre at that point. Maybe a trading chip (a very small one)? Maybe he takes on a backup role or plays one of the corner OF spots once Billy gets called up to Louisville. Or maybe LaMarre will just get sent back to Pensacola. Should be interesting to follow.

dougdirt
12-17-2012, 04:48 PM
OK, I guess you didn't use the word bust, but you essentially called him a failure of a pick.

Hamilton will be in Louisville. Wouldn't surprise me to see LaMarre back in Pensacola, though it wouldn't surprise me to see him working a corner spot in Louisville either.

Blitz Dorsey
12-17-2012, 04:52 PM
OK, I guess you didn't use the word bust, but you essentially called him a failure of a pick.

Hamilton will be in Louisville. Wouldn't surprise me to see LaMarre back in Pensacola, though it wouldn't surprise me to see him working a corner spot in Louisville either.

You don't even need to use the word "essentially." I flat-out called him a "big disappointment." I just think "bust" is going a bit far.

As for your comparison re: LaMarre/Cozart ... there is no way LaMarre will ever have the kind of pop that Cozart does. Cozart is good for 30+ doubles and 15+ HRs every year most likely, especially playing in GABP. LaMarre wouldn't come close to that. Their OBP are similar, but Cozart has a lot more pop. Cozart's minor league numbers > LaMarre's minor league numbers. Also, one thing I really liked about Cozart in the minors is the steady improvement that he showed. He was once considered a guy that would never hit well enough to sniff the Majors as you know. Not that he's a great hitter now, but he's all right. Coupled with his defense and you've got a solid MLB shortstop. And I'm of the opinion we'll see some slight improvement in Cozart's offensive numbers these next couple of years. Nothing drastic, but steady improvement. I know he's already 27, but he's a student of the game and will improve.

dougdirt
12-17-2012, 05:08 PM
There is no way that Cozart is ever going to walk as much as LaMarre is either. Overall though, Cozart sucks as a hitter. Yet he has value because he can play defense up the middle. I don't see why LaMarre can't also suck as a hitter, yet also provide some value because he can also play defense up the middle. The two will go about their offense differently, but I could see them both being .700 OPS bats.

Sabo Fan
12-17-2012, 07:20 PM
So overall I have to say that I'm a big fan of this trade. In fact, I'd go so far to say that it may be Walt's best in terms of value acquired vs. value lost. Defensively I think Choo can handle it. Let him work it out in Spring Training and see how it goes. Ultimately I don't know how much of a difference we'll notice. I'd be more concerned if the Reds were trying to "hide" a poor fielder in either corner spot. Couple that with the otherwise strong D up the middle and I'm not too worried.

As for this spirited debate on Gregorius - good prospect, good potential, but not someone that makes me think twice about dealing if I can get an impact bat like Choo. What's Didi's best-case scenario? Orlando Cabrera? I think I can manage if that's the case.

Boss-Hog
12-17-2012, 10:45 PM
We're well over 1,000 posts, so as is our policy, please start a new thread to continue this discussion. Thank you.