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View Full Version : Reds acquire Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald for Drew Stubbs and Didi Gregorious



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HotCorner
12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Reds deep in talks on deal to acquire Shin-soo Choo from Indians for Stubbs and Gregorius. http://cbsprt.co/UfMpzf


DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Reds would use Choo in center field, and as leadoff hitter.


Please, please, please ...

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:04 PM
YES! Something real to talk about! PLEEEEEASE Walt, do it! Just do it!

reds1869
12-11-2012, 05:04 PM
Please, please, let this be the something else Walt mentioned at Redsfest!

HotCorner
12-11-2012, 05:05 PM
Someone asked him specifically about Choo at Redsfest and Walt said that they had talked to the Indians about him.

CySeymour
12-11-2012, 05:06 PM
The metrics don't show Choo as a real good rightfielder, so what makes the Reds think he could play center?

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
WHOA

Homer Bailey
12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
Choo as a centerfielder? Color me skeptical. Bruce in center and Choo in right? That I could get behind. Would be less than ideal at both positions, but better than Choo in center, no?

Degenerate39
12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
I wish they wouldn't have gotten Ludwick if this is true...

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
This rumor has been around for weeks. Probably has some legs to it. But you know, without Danny Knobler telling us who told him this rumor and what they were wearing when he was told it, we probably shouldn't believe it.

Really though, Choo is 30 years old and has played 10 games in his life at the position. Not sure how I feel about that kind of move. It is a move that makes sense if you didn't bring in Ludwick, but now that you have, I just don't know.

HotCorner
12-11-2012, 05:08 PM
He does solve the leadoff issue but possibly creates a new one.

KoryMac5
12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
389 obp. while batting leadoff for the Indians last season. Really shocked the Reds would get him without giving up any starting pitching

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Wow this would be GREAT!!

Edd Roush
12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
The offensive upgrade from Choo to Stubbs more than makes up for the defensive difference. The stat someone posted here when discussing Frazier to right and Bruce to center about the average centerfielder getting two balls a game flashes to my mind right now. Choo in center would be huge.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 05:09 PM
Would this send Bruce to CF? Really would have liked to seen this prior to the Ludwick deal, but I certainly wouldn't complain.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:10 PM
Looking at BRef, I can't tell if Choo is a FA after 2013 or 2014. Anyone have a better grasp on it?

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Would this send Bruce to CF? Really would have liked to seen this prior to the Ludwick deal, but I certainly wouldn't complain.

I suppose you can't always do things in exactly the right order. Had Walt not moved in when he did on Ludwick, he may have lost him. And you never know what sorts of exchanges the Indians are having about Choo.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Would this send Bruce to CF? Really would have liked to seen this prior to the Ludwick deal, but I certainly wouldn't complain.

No. The rumor says Choo would play CF.

M2
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
I wish they wouldn't have gotten Ludwick if this is true...

I tend to agree, though I like the audacity of either Choo or Bruce in CF. I assume it would be Choo because Dusty's prime directive is the CF hits leadoff.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
I suppose you can't always do things in exactly the right order. Had Walt not moved in when he did on Ludwick, he may have lost him. And you never know what sorts of exchanges the Indians are having about Choo.

Yeah, of course. That said, a 100 point boost in OBP from leadoff would certainly offset the defensive drop off.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Choo will be FA after 2013. Hopefully Reds make qualifying offer and get the picks. If he accepts, they can (hopefully) always trade Ludwick.

jojo
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Choo as a centerfielder? Color me skeptical. Bruce in center and Choo in right? That I could get behind. Would be less than ideal at both positions, but better than Choo in center, no?

Ya, I'm having trouble seeing Choo as an everyday centerfielder.

Kc61
12-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Ludwick needs his rest.

My guess is that Choo would play some CF and some LF.

Heisey would fill in at center when Ludwick rests, with Choo moving to LF.

That's my guess.

SidneySlicker
12-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Choo will be FA after 2013. Hopefully Reds make qualifying offer and get the picks. If he accepts, they can (hopefully) always trade Ludwick.

Yep. The Reds would have him for 1 season and if they were to keep him they'd have to negotiate with Scott Boras.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:12 PM
Worst case Choo can't really play CF, he moves to LF and Hamilton takes over CF. Otherwise, they trade Ludwick and Heisey takes over CF. Either way I'll take it- it's better than the status quo.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:13 PM
Ludwick needs his rest.

My guess is that Choo would play some CF and some LF.

Heisey would fill in at center when Ludwick rests, with Choo moving to LF.

That's my guess.

This makes sense too.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:13 PM
This would be perhaps the best of all possible upgrades to bridge the way to Hamilton's arrival.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:13 PM
Worst case Choo can't really play CF, he moves to LF and Hamilton takes over CF. Otherwise, they trade Ludwick and Heisey takes over CF. Either way I'll take it- it's better than the status quo.

Exactamundo!

jhu1321
12-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Despite the rumor being Choo in CF, they'd have plenty of time to make that decision later if they feel Bruce would be better there.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Looking at BRef, I can't tell if Choo is a FA after 2013 or 2014. Anyone have a better grasp on it?

From Cot's (aka BP), he's in his final arb year (MLB service time of 5.119).



1 year/$4.9M (2012)
re-signed by Cleveland 1/17/12 (avoided arbitration)

1 year/$3.975M (2011)
re-signed by Cleveland 1/18/11 (avoided arbitration)

1 year/$0.4611M (2010)
re-signed by Cleveland 3/10/10

1 year/$0.4203M (2009)
re-signed by Cleveland 2/22/09 ($234,300 in minors)

1 year/$0.3904M (2008)
re-signed by Cleveland 3/7/08

1 year/$0.3831M (2007)
re-signed by Cleveland 2/07 (split contract paying $109,600 in minors)

1 year (2006)
re-signed by Cleveland 3/06
acquired by Cleveland in trade from Seattle 7/06, with Indians paying Mariners undisclosed amount of cash

signed by Cleveland as a free agent from South Korea in 2000

$1.3M signing bonus

agent: Scott Boras

ML service: 5.119

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Despite the rumor being Choo in CF, they'd have plenty of time to make that decision later if they feel Bruce would be better there.

I concur. I think at this point it's about adding productive bats that can play somewhere. They'll have plenty of time to figure out exactly how the rest works out. No one says this has to be the last deal they make either.

SidneySlicker
12-11-2012, 05:16 PM
Choo strikes me as a guy sick of losing. I think he'd be revitalized on a team that's young and on the cusp. Not to mention playing in a hitters ball park.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:16 PM
Any thoughts on the "other" player Reds would receive?

I'd take Tony Wolters as the eventual heir to BP at 2B. With DiDi, Lindor, and (still) Cabrera, not sure why the Indians would need that many future middle infielders.

redsfan30
12-11-2012, 05:16 PM
Part of me is extremely nervous about cutting bait on Drew Stubbs.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Choo would be like Tanaka in Major League 2

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
This would be perhaps the best of all possible upgrades to bridge the way to Hamilton's arrival.

Was just thinking the same thing. He could simmer until September without having to hear fans screaming for him to come up all year.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Part of me is extremely nervous about cutting bait on Drew Stubbs.

I can see that, but not when I think about Billy Hamilton's eventual arrival.

Kc61
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Thrilled with the idea of Choo.

Keep in mind, though, he is a much, much better hitter against RHP.

Last year he hit .199 with a .605 OPS against lefties.

Against righties? .327/.403/.523/.926. Superb.

Lifetime, .695 OPS v. lefties. .914 against righties.

So we could see Ludwick sit against some righties, and Choo sit against some lefties.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Part of me is extremely nervous about cutting bait on Drew Stubbs.

Not me, man. It's time.

CySeymour
12-11-2012, 05:18 PM
I wish they wouldn't have gotten Ludwick if this is true...

Since Stubbs is part of the rumored deal, they'd still be an OF short if they hadn't signed Ludwick.

Hoosier Red
12-11-2012, 05:19 PM
I know he's never shown it in the actual games vs Reds, but is he the kind of hitter who may not be helped by GABP as much? I'd think a high OBP type of hitter with doubles power would actually lose more hits than he gains in cheap home runs.

On the flip side, could make a defense with less than stellar range easier to swallow.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Ummmm....yes please?

I like Drew and Didi. But Choo has been my #1 target for a couple years now. He's a PERFECT fit for this club. Period.

SidneySlicker
12-11-2012, 05:21 PM
I know he's never shown it in the actual games vs Reds, but is he the kind of hitter who may not be helped by GABP as much? I'd think a high OBP type of hitter with doubles power would actually lose more hits than he gains in cheap home runs.

On the flip side, could make a defense with less than stellar range easier to swallow.

With all due respect I think you are over thinking it. It's all about OBP and protecting the middle of the lineup.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 05:22 PM
This rumor has been around for weeks. Probably has some legs to it. But you know, without Danny Knobler telling us who told him this rumor and what they were wearing when he was told it, we probably shouldn't believe it.

Really though, Choo is 30 years old and has played 10 games in his life at the position. Not sure how I feel about that kind of move. It is a move that makes sense if you didn't bring in Ludwick, but now that you have, I just don't know.

Lol. Nice. :O) :beerme:

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:22 PM
With all due respect I think you are over thinking it. It's all about OBP and protecting the middle of the lineup.

Totally. Actually, Choo could be a potential candidate to hit behind Joey as well, couldn't he? I know lineup needs would probably dictate that he hit earlier -- but his bat is potent enough to provide protection as well.

SidneySlicker
12-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I'd be hesitant to part with Didi unless they are confident they can resign Choo.

mace
12-11-2012, 05:23 PM
One huge benefit from acquiring Choo: Arroyo wouldn't have to face him.

I'm not too bothered by the prospect of Choo in CF. 1. His steady stolen-base production suggests he has enough speed. 2. He has a tremendous arm. 3. He'll have good outfielders around him. 4. There's a relatively small CF at GABP. 5. Between platooning, Heisey, etc., his exposure in CF will be somewhat hedged. 6. He played a good bit of CF in the minors.

Also, I don't mind at all that Ludwick was signed first. It fills both the cleanup and leadoff roles, which is exactly what needed to be done.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:24 PM
I believe this blurb from MLBTR was updated with more info:


The Reds and Indians are deep in talks that would send Shin-Soo Choo to Cincinnati, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. The Indians would receive center fielder Drew Stubbs and shortstop Didi Gregorius in return while the Reds are expected to receive another player in the deal.

The Reds would use Choo in center field even though he hasn't seen time at the position for the Indians since 2009 and has played just ten MLB games at the position in total. The Reds are banking on the 30-year-old's offensive production being able to make up for whatever they might lose defensively. The veteran owns a .289/.381/.465 slash line across eight major league seasons.

The acquisition of Gregorius could allow the Indians to deal fellow shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera. Cabrera, 27, is set to earn $6.5MM in 2013 and $10MM in 2014 before hitting free agency. Meanwhile, the 22-year-old Gregorious won't be arbitration eligible until 2016 and won't see the open market until 2019. The Netherlands native split time between Double-A and Triple-A last season, hitting .265/.324/.393 with seven homers in 561 plate appearances.

Choo, a Scott Boras client, is set to hit the open market after the 2013 season. The club was said to have him available via trade, albeit with a high price tag.


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#loPcOdJFWWfZJ14Y.99

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:25 PM
I'd be hesitant to part with Didi unless they are confident they can resign Choo.

Why? Walt has already said he's looking to deal from a strength at SS. They've got Cozart to start and Burriss to backup already. DiDi is surplus value that should be traded to fill other needs. Right?

Doc. Scott
12-11-2012, 05:26 PM
Color me surprised Choo made only $4.9 million in 2012. He had three straight star-level seasons from 2008-2010 and just one off/injured year before bouncing back to .283/.373/.441 in 2012.

He's obviously due for a raise in 2013, but it also looks like a probable one-year rental.

Kc61
12-11-2012, 05:26 PM
One huge benefit from acquiring Soo: Arroyo wouldn't have to face him.

I'm not too bothered by the prospect of Choo in CF. 1. His steady stolen-base production suggests he has enough speed. 2. He has a tremendous arm. 3. He'll have good outfielders around him. 4. There's a relatively small CF at GABP. 5. Between platooning, Heisey, etc., his exposure in CF will be somewhat hedged. 6. He played a good bit of CF in the minors.

Also, I don't mind at all that Ludwick was signed first. It fills both the cleanup and leadoff roles, which is exactly what needed to be done.

Nice post, completely agree.

This deal would transform the Reds lineup for 2013. Choo is that good, and exactly fills the Reds' need for OBP against RHP.

Stubbs and Gregorius? Would do it, yes, despite Gregorius' potential.

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 05:26 PM
I believe this blurb from MLBTR was updated with more info:

Stubbs and Gregorius doesn't seem to qualify as a "high price tag," does it?

Hoosier Red
12-11-2012, 05:27 PM
With all due respect I think you are over thinking it. It's all about OBP and protecting the middle of the lineup.

More than likely true. Even if numbers hurt a little bit, he'd still be light years ahead of Stubbs numbers from last year.
But the larger point is that "hitter's park" doesn't apply perfectly evenly.
I worried about this when they discussed guys like Fowler and Pierre, who both had good OBP in Coors because the outfield is HUGE. But the larger point is that "hitter's park" doesn't apply perfectly evenly.

Some will see numbers go up, some will see numbers stay even, few will see numbers go down, and they need to identify what type of hitter would have more trouble in GABP than in a different park.

SidneySlicker
12-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Totally. Actually, Choo could be a potential candidate to hit behind Joey as well, couldn't he? I know lineup needs would probably dictate that he hit earlier -- but his bat is potent enough to provide protection as well.

In my eyes the perfect scenario is to resign him and once BHam comes up slide him down to Second.

1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 BP
6 Frazier
7 Cozart
8 Hanny/whoever's catching

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
In my eyes the perfect scenario is to resign him and once BHam comes up slide him down to Second.

1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 BP
6 Frazier
7 Cozart
8 Hanny/whoever's catching

Good lord. If Billy pans out, that's one doozy of a lineup!

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Stubbs and Gregorius doesn't seem to qualify as a "high price tag," does it?

Nope. But with most teams settling their OF needs and Texas still fixated on Justin Upton, I'm not sure the Indians have much of a choice. They are not contending this year (especially not with the latest Royals trade) so they have no use for one more year of Choo- might as well sell him for the highest bid, which seems to be Stubbs and DiDi at the moment.

If I were Walt, I may just call up Kevin Towers one last time and offer him the same package + Leake for J.Upton, just to be sure (esp. since Reds don't seem to mind going without a true CF). Once they decline, hang up and get the Choo deal done.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Stubbs and Gregorius doesn't seem to qualify as a "high price tag," does it?

Did the post say that? Did I say that?

CySeymour
12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
In my eyes the perfect scenario is to resign him and once BHam comes up slide him down to Second.

1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 BP
6 Frazier
7 Cozart
8 Hanny/whoever's catching

But what if Ludwick is still hitting well?

Reds1
12-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Stubbs and Gregorius doesn't seem to qualify as a "high price tag," does it?

I don't think so. As I see it the Reds on paper are the best I've seen in a long time and I like the fact that this deal is for 2013. We aren't restacking here - we are going for it. If Chap works out in the rotation and we can fix the OBP issue in front of Votto. If we stay healthy this team could make a series threat towards the WS. I would love this deal and just maybe Choo likes an opportunity to win a ring and falls in love with the Reds and a deal can be worked out. We just don't know.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 05:30 PM
And if Mesoraco pans out well:


1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 Mesoraco
6 BP
7 Frazier
8 Cozart
9 Pitcher

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:30 PM
And if Mesoraco pans out well:


1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 Mesoraco
6 BP
7 Frazier
8 Cozart
9 Pitcher

I'd be surprised if Mez ever hits above Frazier in the lineup.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:31 PM
And if Mesoraco pans out well:

1 Bham
2 Choo
3 Joey
4 Bruce
5 Mesoraco
6 BP
7 Frazier
8 Cozart
9 Pitcher

Stop! You're giving me chills! :pray:

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Why? Walt has already said he's looking to deal from a strength at SS. They've got Cozart to start and Burriss to backup already. DiDi is surplus value that should be traded to fill other needs. Right?

Because Zack Cozart is entering his age 27 season and has a career OBP of .290 in the Major Leagues?

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 05:32 PM
Did the post say that? Did I say that?

The MLBTR post did. Rosenthal just tweeted the Reds may be getting a second player in the deal, which is crazy.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:33 PM
Because Zack Cozart is entering his age 27 season and has a career OBP of .290 in the Major Leagues?

I'm not saying he's perfect. But he's serviceable. And you've got to give up something to get Choo. I know you value DiDi highly -- but this trade just seems too good to pass up, doesn't it? If not, what would you suggest?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:34 PM
I keep saying that people on here drastically underestimate the trade value of Gregorius. He is a Top 100 prospect.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:34 PM
The MLBTR post did. Rosenthal just tweeted the Reds may be getting a second player in the deal, which is crazy.

Ah, sorry. I'm reading things too fast. If the second player is worth beans, yes, it is crazy.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm not saying he's perfect. But he's serviceable. And you've got to give up something to get Choo. I know you value DiDi highly -- but this trade just seems too good to pass up, doesn't it? If not, what would you suggest?
Oh, I would pull the trigger on the deal. I am just saying that Cozart isn't exactly someone to count on IMO and that is why I could understand the hesitation to move Gregorius.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Did the post say that? Did I say that?

...yes?

Patrick Bateman
12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Choo almost assuredly is not as bad a fielder as last year indicated, as he's not that old, and other seasons he has been more than adequate. He'd clearly be below average in CF, but his bat would of course more than make up the difference.

I'd much prefer to work this deal around Heisey and maybe another lesser piece in replace of Stubbs. Stubbs would fit the roster much better, as he could pose to be a perfect platoon partner for Choo (as he can't hit lefties whereas Stubbs is very good), and replace Choo in late inning defensive situations. Heisey really doesn't offer either of those qualities very well and therefore would be a much more poor fit as a back-up OF'der.

Choo would represent an upgrade, but I fear that there are much cheaper ways of doing so (ie. get a DeAza or Morgan to be a true platoon partner for Stubbs), and likely wouldn't have to give up the prospect of Didi's caliber).

mdccclxix
12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
Cozart hit a lot of XBH, which can serve well at the bottom of the lineup.


Is this happening?

Degenerate39
12-11-2012, 05:36 PM
This let's Billy play Triple A all year if it happens.

1. Choo
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Ludwick
5. Bruce
6. Frazier
7. Cozart
8. Hanigan

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:36 PM
How did Gregorious end up so highly regarded? How is he anything more than a glorified Paul Janish?

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Cozart hit a lot of XBH, which can serve well at the bottom of the lineup.


Is this happening?

Good point. Replacing Stubbs's bat with Choo's is already a huge leap, but getting Stubbs and Cozart out of the top two spots will be an even bigger offensive jump.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:37 PM
Is this happening?

Wish I knew the answer to that! All I do know is that I'm going to be glued to this forum tonight. So yes, Ojo Rojo will be around some more today (collective sighs).

WildcatFan
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Wish I knew the answer to that! All I do know is that I'm going to be glued to this forum tonight. So yes, Ojo Rojo will be around some more today (collective sighs).

:beerme:

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Just to show what kind of value this represents, check out this hypothetical trade that the author of Red Reporter was willing to make:

http://www.redreporter.com/2012/12/3/3723438/red-reporters-reds-acquire-shin-soo-choo-from-lets-go-tribes-indians

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
How is he anything more than a glorified Paul Janish?

A great question that should be asked of a lot of players across the board. :D

M2
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
This let's Billy play Triple A all year if it happens.

1. Choo
2. Phillips
3. Votto
4. Ludwick
5. Bruce
6. Frazier
7. Cozart
8. Hanigan

That's the lineup I would expect, with Mes getting an increasing share of the catching duties.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Outside of Danny Graves, would Choo be the first Asian player in Reds history?

reds44
12-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Choo for Didi and Stubbs is a steal for the Reds. An absolute robbery, if true.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 05:39 PM
Did the post say that? Did I say that?

The mlbtr article said it.

RedEye
12-11-2012, 05:39 PM
The mlbtr article said it.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Tom Servo
12-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Boy, I go out for 45 minutes and all hell breaks loose.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 05:40 PM
Wish I knew the answer to that! All I do know is that I'm going to be glued to this forum tonight. So yes, Ojo Rojo will be around some more today (collective sighs).

Yep my productivity just died with this rumor. Choo or Bruce's defense in center is an absolute question mark, but that bat would be monumental to the lineup. I like Gregorius, but honestly I'm okay with selling him off and sticking with Cozart. Cozart's at the very least a great glove we can hide towards the bottom of the order.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:42 PM
How did Gregorious end up so highly regarded? How is he anything more than a glorified Paul Janish?

Much better hitter, more power potential, better defensively, better speed and a better arm. So he is just like Paul Janish, but better at everything across the board than him.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 05:42 PM
Starting to sound like this would be basically be step 1 in a 3 way trade with Arizona, with perhaps both Stubbs and Didi going to Arizona.

M2
12-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Outside of Danny Graves, would Choo be the first Asian player in Reds history?

Bruce Chen is Panamasian.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Starting to sound like this would be basically be step 1 in a 3 way trade with Arizona, with perhaps both Stubbs and Didi going to Arizona.

If that's the case I'd rather just get Upton for ourselves.

I think A.Cabrera could be headed to Arizona, Upton to Texas, and Texas prospects to Cleveland. But that's just me.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:44 PM
Bruce Chen is Panamasian.

:lol:

Doesn't that just make him pan-Asian?

Edd Roush
12-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Starting to sound like this would be basically be step 1 in a 3 way trade with Arizona, with perhaps both Stubbs and Didi going to Arizona.

Why do you think this, Rick?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Wow, throw out Choo's injury-riddled 2010 where he only played 85 games, and he has averaged an .860 OPS and 150 games played per season the last 3 years. That may just help this Reds lineup...

M2
12-11-2012, 05:47 PM
:lol:

Doesn't that just make him pan-Asian?

Well, his family is Asian (or at least his dad's side of the family is), but he was born and raised in Panama.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Outside of Danny Graves, would Choo be the first Asian player in Reds history?

Sun Woo Kim

jhu1321
12-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Much better hitter, more power potential, better defensively, better speed and a better arm. So he is just like Paul Janish, but better at everything across the board than him.

This is funny as hell. :laugh:

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Much better hitter, more power potential, better defensively, better speed and a better arm. So he is just like Paul Janish, but better at everything across the board than him.

A better hitter based on what? He looks like a high 600 OPS bat.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 05:52 PM
If Didi has a better arm than Janish, I'm looking forward to watching him play a bit more. I've only seen him twice and I thought he was decent. A solid SS prospect, but I apparently didn't see him at the right time I guess.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 05:52 PM
A better hitter based on what? He looks like a high 600 OPS bat.

I don't know what Gregorius projects to be exactly, but saying he's a better hitter than Janish isn't exactly hard to believe

reds1869
12-11-2012, 05:52 PM
Sun Woo Kim

And who can ever forget that dominant lefty Jung Keun Bong.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 05:53 PM
Why do you think this, Rick?

Well, Cleveland has more SS than they need already. No reason for them to acquire another one. Meanwhile, they've been working hard at a deal with Arizona, presumably for Trevor Bauer. The D'Backs have a ton of SP and presumably want to deal some of it to land a SS if they can't get one via an Upton trade.

M2
12-11-2012, 05:53 PM
A better hitter based on what? He looks like a high 600 OPS bat.

You can steal Paul Janish's lunch money with a .600 OPS.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:53 PM
A better hitter based on what? He looks like a high 600 OPS bat.

Based on his tools. Janish at the same age was playing a full season in Dayton. Gregorius hit .267 between AA, AAA and the Majors this year. Gregorius isn't some superstar at the plate. He projects to be a .275-.280/.330/.400 type of hitter. At shortstop, with outstanding defense.... yeah, Paul Janish can't touch that.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:54 PM
I don't know what Gregorius projects to be exactly, but saying he's a better hitter than Janish isn't exactly hard to believe

That's why I called him a glorified Janish, but a 600 OPS, better or not, still isn't something to get all fired up about.

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Saying "He hits better than Paul Janish" is like telling a girl she has a great personality.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:55 PM
That's why I called him a glorified Janish, but a 600 OPS, better or not, still isn't something to get all fired up about.

Of course not, but there is a big difference between a .600 OPS and the guy Gregorius projects to become.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:55 PM
You can steal Paul Janish's lunch money with a .600 OPS.

Definitely, but even if its better, it's still not worth getting excited about.

Glorified Janish may not have accurately portrayed what I meant, more like a rich man's Janish, or really just a defensive specialist to put it simply.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:56 PM
Definitely, but even if its better, it's still not worth getting excited about.

Glorified Janish may not have accurately portrayed what I meant, more like a rich man's Janish, or really just a defensive specialist to put it simply.

Projects to be better than our current shortstop. Who was a league average player this season. The days where every shortstop hits like Tulo are over.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:57 PM
Based on his tools. Janish at the same age was playing a full season in Dayton. Gregorius hit .267 between AA, AAA and the Majors this year. Gregorius isn't some superstar at the plate. He projects to be a .275-.280/.330/.400 type of hitter. At shortstop, with outstanding defense.... yeah, Paul Janish can't touch that.

That seems like a pretty generous projection to me, seeing as he has yet to even do that in the minors.

Patrick Bateman
12-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Wow, throw out Choo's injury-riddled 2010 where he only played 85 games, and he has averaged an .860 OPS and 150 games played per season the last 3 years. That may just help this Reds lineup...

Just throwing Griffey as a comp, but Choo could do that and still not have significant overall value if the defensive limitations are significant.

Choo is clearly a terrific hitter, but I think the defense needs to be heavily scrutinized to determine if this is going to be the upgrade it appears on paper.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Projects to be better than our current shortstop. Who was a league average player this season. The days where every shortstop hits like Tulo are over.

Maybe based on the most favorable projections possible, even so, how does that end up a top 100 prospect?

camisadelgolf
12-11-2012, 05:58 PM
In case anyone missed it, Dusty Baker said at RedsFest that he feels Brandon Phillips is ideal for the #2 slot in the batting order. He also said Frazier will be the Opening Day third baseman. If this trade goes through, it looks like we have our starting lineup set.

Edd Roush
12-11-2012, 05:59 PM
Well, Cleveland has more SS than they need already. No reason for them to acquire another one. Meanwhile, they've been working hard at a deal with Arizona, presumably for Trevor Bauer. The D'Backs have a ton of SP and presumably want to deal some of it to land a SS if they can't get one via an Upton trade.

So Cleveland would trade for Didi and then flip him. The Reds would hold on to Choo, correct?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 05:59 PM
That seems like a pretty generous projection to me, seeing as he has yet to even do that in the minors.

He is also 22 and made his MLB debut this year. Most guys his age are playing in A-ball. Throw him back in Dayton this past season and what does he hit? What about Bakersfield?

He has some work to do still, but most 22 year old baseball players do. He makes a lot of contact. He plays outstanding defense. He has the pop for 10-15 home runs. He has above-average speed. Look at the skills, not just the numbers.

Scrap Irony
12-11-2012, 06:00 PM
That seems like a pretty generous projection to me, seeing as he has yet to even do that in the minors.

Me, too.

I like his glove, but his arm isn't as good as Janish's. Few ever have been at that spot. His range and athleticism at the SS spot is better, but only by a step.

His bat is much better, but that's damning with faint praise.

Were I a betting man, I'd insist his career OPS doesn't climb above 720.

Whether that's a Top 100 prospect or not, I have no clue.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 06:00 PM
Maybe based on the most favorable projections possible, even so, how does that end up a top 100 prospect?

He was a Top 20 prospect in the Southern League this past season and a Top 10 prospect in the International League this past season. That is going to get you inside a Top 100. It has in the past.

Scrap Irony
12-11-2012, 06:01 PM
For the record, I love the deal for Choo.

Great OBP. Great gamble for CF.

Outside the box thinking by Jocketty.

Love it.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:03 PM
He was a Top 20 prospect in the Southern League this past season and a Top 10 prospect in the International League this past season. That is going to get you inside a Top 100. It has in the past.

I'm not arguing that he might be, you know more about that than I do. I just don't understand how that's happened.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm not arguing that he might be, you know more about that than I do. I just don't understand how that's happened.

You don't understand the value of a solid hitter at shortstop with plus defense then. Even if Gregorius turns out to be a .700 OPS bat, with his defense, that makes him an above-average shortstop in the Major Leagues. Guys like that are Top 100 prospects.

The Voice of IH
12-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Drew Stubbs and Didi for one year of Choo?

I am in. I really am.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Just throwing Griffey as a comp, but Choo could do that and still not have significant overall value if the defensive limitations are significant.

Choo is clearly a terrific hitter, but I think the defense needs to be heavily scrutinized to determine if this is going to be the upgrade it appears on paper.

I'm starting to feel a little more wary about this too. The OBP would be a godsend, but you have to wonder how much he'd be giving back in center. Doesn't seem like his skillset would even be close to adequate out there.

Bill
12-11-2012, 06:04 PM
The dbacks deal is for Cabrera.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Just throwing Griffey as a comp, but Choo could do that and still not have significant overall value if the defensive limitations are significant.

Choo is clearly a terrific hitter, but I think the defense needs to be heavily scrutinized to determine if this is going to be the upgrade it appears on paper.

Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

Yes, defensive metrics have him as a little below average in right. That means a lot below average in center.

Bad defense in CF is going to mean for a worse pitching staff. More pitches, less innings, more bullpen work going to the lesser arms and more work overall for everyone, making the bullpen worse as a whole.

M2
12-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Maybe based on the most favorable projections possible, even so, how does that end up a top 100 prospect?

I suspect that's a pretty accurate projection for what the industry expects from Didi. It might prove to be optimistic, but a low .700s OPS with a great glove would put him in Elvis Andrus territory (minus Andrus' speed on the bases).

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:07 PM
Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

He's moving to a more demanding position that he's practically never played. The defensive metrics, as fickle as they are, had him as well below average even as a corner outfielder last year. Plenty of questions IMO>

Bill
12-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Choo certainly has the arm for CF.

Choo actually likes the Cleveland organization and has said good things about being part of the team. He could be comfortable with the Reds too. Boras is a problem of course in the long run regardless.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:10 PM
Yes, defensive metrics have him as a little below average in right. That means a lot below average in center.

Bad defense in CF is going to mean for a worse pitching staff. More pitches, less innings, more bullpen work going to the lesser arms and more work overall for everyone, making the bullpen worse as a whole.

Well, I certainly haven't seen him as below average in right. I've seen him as above average in right. Well above average.

If this deal goes through, I think I'd personally prefer to see Jay in center and Choo in right. But they've both got the speed and arm for either. And they've both had experience in the minors at both slots as well. If we had a big outfield, I'd be more concerned. But lets be honest, we've got a pretty small outfield. I'm a defensive junkie, I live and breathe for defensive stalwarts, and if I'm fine with Choo...that's saying something IMO.

Strikes Out Looking
12-11-2012, 06:11 PM
1. Choo CF
2. Phillips 2b
3. Votto 1B
4. Ludwick LF
5. Bruce RF
6. Frazier 3B
7. Cozart SS
8. Hannigan/Mez C

Pretty pretty good.

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 06:12 PM
Well, I certainly haven't seen him as below average in right. I've seen him as above average in right. Well above average.

If this deal goes through, I think I'd personally prefer to see Jay in center and Choo in right. But they've both got the speed and arm for either. And they've both had experience in the minors at both slots as well. If we had a big outfield, I'd be more concerned. But lets be honest, we've got a pretty small outfield. I'm a defensive junkie, I live and breathe for defensive stalwarts, and if I'm fine with Choo...that's saying something IMO.
There are 81 games that we don't play at home too. Our small outfield doesn't exist there.

Scrap Irony
12-11-2012, 06:12 PM
Three former CF in the Red OF-- and, while none of the three may make a great CF, the combination of the three should make the overall OF defense decent. Add in Heisey and Paul as backup OF to play in difficult stadiums, and it's a far cry from the Lost Decade.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Scary thought for Tribe fans....


MLB.com reporter Zack Meisel pointed out on Twitter that if the Indians do acquire Stubbs, the Tribe will have added the 2011 National League strikeout leader and the current American League strikeout leader (Mark Reynolds) in a span of three days.

M2
12-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Boras is a problem of course in the long run regardless.

Conspiracy theory here. The Reds talk with the Indians about trading for a Boras client in order to shake Boras' tree about Michael Bourn.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:14 PM
Three former CF in the Red OF-- and, while none of the three may make a great CF, the combination of the three should make the overall OF defense decent. Add in Heisey and Paul as backup OF to play in difficult stadiums, and it's a far cry from the Lost Decade.

This is what I'm seeing as well. He's not alone out there. He's got speed & range. He's got a cannon for an arm. He's not trying it for the first time. And he's got teammates next to him.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:16 PM
There are 81 games that we don't play at home too. Our small outfield doesn't exist there.

Well, I'm writing a letter to Bud about that. How dare he make us play on the road! ;)

I know, I just don't think it'll be as big a dropoff as many think.

Patrick Bateman
12-11-2012, 06:16 PM
Where are these questions about Choo's defense coming from? I've seen him numerous times and he's quite good out there. His arm is fantastic as well. He's got solid range too. Is there some defensive metric that's showing him as a crummy defender or something?

For one he has played about 10 career games in CF, so it is at least a question.

His career in RF, he has been mostly around average to a tick above according to metrics, and graded out very poorly last season. I don't know about last year to have a definitive answer if it means much for the future. But I consider it concerning considering he is touching 30 now, so it wouldn't be crazy to see some defensive downgrading (albeit not to the degree shown in the stats).

Presumably if Jocketty believed he was that bad the trade would not be consumated. Just throwing it out there for discussion because it could be a deal breaker in his overall value.... hoping someone is more familiar with the situation.

KoryMac5
12-11-2012, 06:17 PM
So Cleveland would trade for Didi and then flip him. The Reds would hold on to Choo, correct?

Rosenthal has stated that Towers absolutely loves Didi, so I would imagine he is going to be part of a package for Upton. Would have been interesting to see if the Reds could have put a Didi, Leake and others package together for Upton. Choo's defense in center has me a bit concerned, though I think Walt only plans on using him there for 1 yr stopgap.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:18 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe
Possible that #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera could head to the #Reds too...time will tell, stay tuned.

Oh.
My.
God.

jhu1321
12-11-2012, 06:18 PM
I for one can't wait to chant Chooooooooo as well as Bruuuuuuuuuuuce if this happens.

dunner13
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
From twitter:Ben Badler ‏@BenBadler
There we go RT @hoynsie 3 team dealing cooking among #Indians, Reds, Arizona. Choo headed to Cincy. Cabrera not involved as of right now.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
nick camino ‏@caminotribe
possible that #indians ss asdrubal cabrera could head to the #reds too...time will tell, stay tuned.

Oh.
My.
God.

what is going on

WHAT IS GOING ON

M2
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe
Possible that #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera could head to the #Reds too...time will tell, stay tuned.

Oh.
My.
God.

I don't know if I can pull off a standing flip, but if that happened I'd try one.

Scrap Irony
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Choo AND Asdrubal?

WOOT!

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe
Possible that #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera could head to the #Reds too...time will tell, stay tuned.

Oh.
My.
God.

WTF that'd be unreal. My only question would be why? Could Walt be working a 3-team trade to deal Cabrera to AZ for Upton?

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:19 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe
Possible that #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera could head to the #Reds too...time will tell, stay tuned.

Oh.
My.
God.

Holy crap.

I'm having flashbacks to the proposed deals with the O's for Bedard a few years back. LOL.

I've got to stop refreshing the screen. My kids need dinner. :lol:

dunner13
12-11-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm hoping for a 3 team deal where we end up with Choo and Bauer

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:20 PM
Just throwing Griffey as a comp, but Choo could do that and still not have significant overall value if the defensive limitations are significant.

Choo is clearly a terrific hitter, but I think the defense needs to be heavily scrutinized to determine if this is going to be the upgrade it appears on paper.

I see Choo only playing about 100 games in CF this year- max.

I see Heisey playing at least 50 (with Choo in LF). And I see Hamilton looming as a threat to steal innings as well (pun intended).

So really what this does is gives us a LOT of breathing room for our risk factors:
1) Ludwick cannot maintain last year's offense
2) Choo's CF defense gives back a lot of value
3) Billy Hamilton is or isn't ready to be a fulltime CF
4) Injury risk for any of the above
5) In status quo, lack of leadoff hitter/offensive CF will be a huge detriment

In almost all of these "risk" scenarios, we're pretty well covered. That's why I'm very much in favor of this move.

RichRed
12-11-2012, 06:20 PM
I've got to stop refreshing the screen. My kids need dinner. :lol:

They can eat tomorrow.

RicoRojo is getting excited.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:21 PM
They can eat tomorrow.

RicoRojo is getting excited.

:lol: @ RicoRojo. Really on board with the new jersey, eh? lol

Hoosier Red
12-11-2012, 06:21 PM
He's moving to a more demanding position that he's practically never played. The defensive metrics, as fickle as they are, had him as well below average even as a corner outfielder last year. Plenty of questions IMO>

This could be getting back to the Wily Mo Wishful thinking, but is it possible that for the types of players the Reds have been targeting, a guy may be no worse as a CF than he is as a corner OF.

I'm thinking the best comparison is in a 2b and a 3B. The skills don't always translate neatly from one position to another. A guy like Rolen can be a good 3b without being a good 2b, because he has quick reaction speed, but not the speed to cover as much ground as a 2b or a SS would.

Similarly, an outfielder without great reaction time but with better overall speed would be slower in the corners, but could possibly be no worse as a CF.

This seemed to hold true on utility players like Hairston, but it may not be as true with Choo.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:22 PM
Well this has gotten extremely interesting...

westofyou
12-11-2012, 06:22 PM
They can eat tomorrow.

RicoRojo is getting excited.

Al oeste de usted as well, Al oeste de usted as well

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2012, 06:22 PM
Well this has gotten extremely interesting...

Muy interesante...

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:22 PM
Cabrera has 2 years left on his deal for 16.5 million.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:23 PM
From twitter:Ben Badler ‏@BenBadler
There we go RT @hoynsie 3 team dealing cooking among #Indians, Reds, Arizona. Choo headed to Cincy. Cabrera not involved as of right now.

I would assume Cabrera HAS to be involved (with CLE getting Bauer). Otherwise, give us Justin Upton PLEASE!!!!!

As an aside, can you IMAGINE if we got Cabrera for SS too (assuming we'd include Corcino and/or Cingrani to CLE)? Then trade Cozart to ARI for Bauer. Wowowowow. Ok I'll stop.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Forget that, there's *potential* for us to get Choo AND Upton. Which would be NUTS.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:24 PM
Count Monde Maravilloso on board with all of this as well.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Rosenthal has stated that Towers absolutely loves Didi, so I would imagine he is going to be part of a package for Upton. Would have been interesting to see if the Reds could have put a Didi, Leake and others package together for Upton. Choo's defense in center has me a bit concerned, though I think Walt only plans on using him there for 1 yr stopgap.

THIS

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Forget that, there's *potential* for us to get Choo AND Upton. Which would be NUTS.

As cool as that sounds, what would we do with them with Ludwick back here?

757690
12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
I'm excited about the original Stubbs and Didi for Choo deal.

Not too excited about a three way deal. I'm afraid it means the Reds are giving up more talent to Arizona, and probably not getting much back.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Forget that, there's *potential* for us to get Choo AND Upton. Which would be NUTS.
No there's not. The Reds aren't getting Upton after they resigned Ludwick. Let it go. Not going to happen.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
As cool as that sounds, what would we do with them with Ludwick back here?

Play Choo at 3B or C or Pitcher or ANYWHERE. :lol:

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:26 PM
Forget that, there's *potential* for us to get Choo AND Upton. Which would be NUTS.

That would be classic - trade Ludwick 2 days after he signs a 2 year deal.

Homer Bailey
12-11-2012, 06:26 PM
I can't even imagine Cabrera being in this deal. At least, not for what has been proposed in what we're giving up.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:26 PM
No there's not. The Reds aren't getting Upton after they resigned Ludwick. Let it go. Not going to happen.

Good point, I wasn't thinking that way. Cabrera/Choo or Choo/Bauer would be a nice haul. I wouldn't care *who* we gave up.

Homer Bailey
12-11-2012, 06:26 PM
That would be classic - trade Ludwick 2 days after he signs a 2 year deal.

I don't think Ludwick can be traded until 6/15, since he technically signed as a free agent, no?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:27 PM
Who would make a better hypothetical defensive CF - J.Upton or Choo?

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:28 PM
Who would make a better hypothetical defensive CF - J.Upton or Choo?

I'd be way more comfortable with Upton.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:28 PM
I can't even imagine Cabrera being in this deal. At least, not for what has been proposed in what we're giving up.
I would imagine the Reds would be giving up more to get Cabrera, starting with Cozart.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:29 PM
Where are you guys getting Upton from? Are you just pulling this out of thin air?

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:29 PM
I would imagine the Reds would be giving up more to get Cabrera, starting with Cozart.

How do Cabrera and Choo fit on payroll just out of curiosity?

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:30 PM
I would imagine the Reds would be giving up more to get Cabrera, starting with Cozart.

What would Cleveland do with Cozart and Didi though?

dougdirt
12-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Where are you guys getting Upton from? Are you just pulling this out of thin air?

Well, if Gregorius is being sent to Arizona, why not just try to go straight to Arizona and acquire Upton instead of Choo.

jhu1321
12-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Where are you guys getting Upton from? Are you just pulling this out of thin air?

Putting 2 +2 together. Upton available and Dbacks want a shortstop.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:30 PM
How do Cabrera and Choo fit on payroll just out of curiosity?

Because the real answer is NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has any idea what our payroll can or cannot fit at this point.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:31 PM
Putting 2 +2 together. Upton available and Dbacks want a shortstop.
So yes, just pulling it out of thin air.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:31 PM
Well, if Gregorius is being sent to Arizona, why not just try to go straight to Arizona and acquire Upton instead of Choo.

That's what I've been advocating all along.

Gregorius, Stubbs and Leake for Upton. DO IT!

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:31 PM
Because the real answer is NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has any idea what our payroll can or cannot fit at this point.

Agreed.

And re: Upton, yea...just putting pieces together. If AZ is truly involved, which has been confirmed, then Bauer or Upton is likely on the block.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:31 PM
What would Cleveland do with Cozart and Didi though?
Didi is going to Arizona it sounds like.

Matt700wlw
12-11-2012, 06:31 PM
I love this stuff!

jojo
12-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Choo almost assuredly is not as bad a fielder as last year indicated, as he's not that old, and other seasons he has been more than adequate. He'd clearly be below average in CF, but his bat would of course more than make up the difference.

His UZR/150 based upon 5000+ defensive innings in RF is -3. That suggests he might be expected to be something like a -10 to -12 defender in CF.

He's probably going to be projected to be a .360-.370 wOBA type bat.

So assuming he played 600 PAs in CF, he'd be roughly +26 runs above average offensively versus a generic league average bat, he'd get +2.5 for doing it in center, and he'd get an additional +20 for the difference between replacement and "average".

So the Reds would be looking at getting a 3.5-4.0 WAR player if they traded for Choo and stuck him in center and he played without significant injury.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Didi is going to Arizona it sounds like.

Source? That makes sense, but I havent seen anything in stone yet.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:32 PM
Didi is going to Arizona it sounds like.

Which I guess means they would send more to Cleveland for them to give us Cabrera.

Three way trades are too complicated for my simple brain.

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2012, 06:32 PM
If Arizona is involved with the trade, can we send Thom Brennaman back as part of the package as well?

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:33 PM
JD Rentz ‏@jdrentz

That's intriguing: RT "@CaminoTribe: Possible that #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera could head to the #Reds too...time will tell, stay tuned."

wolfboy
12-11-2012, 06:33 PM
If Arizona is involved with the trade, can we send Thom Brennaman back as part of the package as well?

We'll send cash as well. Hell, I'll send cash.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:34 PM
We'll send cash as well. Hell, I'll send cash.

Ill chip in some, too! Ill take back my xmas gifts! :lol:

RichRed
12-11-2012, 06:35 PM
If Arizona is involved with the trade, can we send Thom Brennaman back as part of the package as well?

Best suggestion I've seen yet.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Which I guess means they would send more to Cleveland for them to give us Cabrera.

Three way trades are too complicated for my simple brain.
IF Cabrera is involved (and that's far from a sure thing), I would imagine it's something like:

To Cincinnati:
Choo
Cabrera

To Arizona:
Didi

To Cleveland:
Cozart
Stubbs
Some sort of young pitching from Arizona

I'm not sure Cozart, Stubbs, and Didi can land the Reds Choo and Cabrera, so the Reds probably would send something somewhere else too. Maybe to AZ? Who knows.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Let's see, hmmm....

CIN trades Cozart, Gregorius, and Stubbs
ARI trades Bauer
CLE trades Choo and Cabrera

CIN gets Choo and Cabrera
ARI gets Gregorius
CLE gets Cozart, Stubbs and Bauer

???

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:36 PM
I don't think Arizona does Bauer for Didi straight up, thus I think the Reds might have to send AZ something else too.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:36 PM
IF Cabrera is involved (and that's far from a sure thing), I would imagine it's something like:

To Cincinnati:
Choo
Cabrera

To Arizona:
Didi

To Cleveland:
Cozart
Stubbs
Some sort of young pitching from Arizona

I'm not sure Cozart, Stubbs, and Didi can land the Reds Choo and Cabrera, so something the Reds probably would send something somewhere else too. Maybe to AZ? Who knows.

same idea same time (Bauer would be the young pitching ARI trades)

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2012, 06:38 PM
IF Cabrera is involved (and that's far from a sure thing), I would imagine it's something like:

To Cincinnati:
Choo
Cabrera
ANNOUNCER TO BE NAMED LATER

To Arizona:
Didi
THOM BRENNAMAN

To Cleveland:
Cozart
Stubbs
Some sort of young pitching from Arizona

Sign me up.

757690
12-11-2012, 06:38 PM
Well, if Gregorius is being sent to Arizona, why not just try to go straight to Arizona and acquire Upton instead of Choo.

Upton is signed for the next three years @ $40M. I think the Reds would much rather want to pay less in talent for Choo who is only a one year commitment at much less money.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:39 PM
IF Cabrera is involved (and that's far from a sure thing), I would imagine it's something like:

To Cincinnati:
Choo
Cabrera

To Arizona:
Didi

To Cleveland:
Cozart
Stubbs
Some sort of young pitching from Arizona

I'm not sure Cozart, Stubbs, and Didi can land the Reds Choo and Cabrera, so the Reds probably would send something somewhere else too. Maybe to AZ? Who knows.

This is what I was thinking too.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:40 PM
Is there an Indianszone or a Diamondbackszone that anyone knows of?

dunner13
12-11-2012, 06:41 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman
I've been out of pocket all day. Just confirmation that the Gregorius and Stubbs trade for Choo is all but complete. #reds

wolfboy
12-11-2012, 06:41 PM
Is there an Indianszone or a Diamondbackszone that anyone knows of?

Brennamanzone? Has to be a scary place.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:41 PM
@johnfayman I've been out of pocket all day. Just confirmation that the Gregorius and Stubbs trade for Choo is all but complete. #reds

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:41 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman
I've been out of pocket all day. Just confirmation that the Gregorius and Stubbs trade for Choo is all but complete. #reds

Is that sarcasm or is he confirming it?

mdccclxix
12-11-2012, 06:41 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman
I've been out of pocket all day. Just confirmation that the Gregorius and Stubbs trade for Choo is all but complete. #reds

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
John Fay ‏@johnfayman
I've been out of pocket all day. Just confirmation that the Gregorius and Stubbs trade for Choo is all but complete. #reds

omg

Joseph
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Wow. Color me shocked

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Man now I got my hopes up for Cabrera too lol

mdccclxix
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
Is that sarcasm or is he confirming it?

dangit, you could be right

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
No I think Fay just confirmed it.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:42 PM
What happened to Arizona?

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:43 PM
Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick

I checked with a couple of scouts who see Didi Gregorius as a utility player or average SS on 2nd division club. #reds

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:43 PM
Man now I got my hopes up for Cabrera too lol

I'm okay either way. A good hitting SS would be nice, but isn't he not so good defensively?

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:43 PM
What happened to Arizona?

They backed out after getting Thom straight up.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:43 PM
Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick
I checked with a couple of scouts who see Didi Gregorius as a utility player or average SS on 2nd division club. #reds

indy_dave00
12-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Hopefully Choo is open to re-signing , I think even selling Stubbs low he and Didi is a lot for a 1 year player.

Wonderful Monds
12-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick

I checked with a couple of scouts who see Didi Gregorius as a utility player or average SS on 2nd division club. #reds

I don't remember ever speaking to Jerry Crasnick?

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:45 PM
paul hoynes ‏@hoynsie

#Indians, Reds, Arizona involved in three-team deal. http://is.gd/dyGz7h

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick
But Gregorius has a .323 OBP in minors, doesn't steal bases and has 20 HRs in 1,755 professional ABs. #reds #indians

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick
I checked with a couple of scouts who see Didi Gregorius as a utility player or average SS on 2nd division club. #reds

Funny. I see the same thing.

Great trade for the Reds if true. Hopefully there is even more coming back (although I don't want to be greedy).

Caveat Emperor
12-11-2012, 06:45 PM
You know, here I was feeling down on sports after Tampa Bay somehow managed to lose to a guy named Nick Foles...

...and then Walt Jocketty comes, like a uncle from out of town with an unexpectedly awesome gift to redeem things completely.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale
The #Indians and #Reds trade is getting close, but executive involved in deal says it's not finalized quite yet.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:46 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe

By tonight. RT @BNightengale The #Indians & #Reds trade is getting close, but executive involved in deal says it's not finalized quite yet.

dunner13
12-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe

By tonight. RT @BNightengale The #Indians & #Reds trade is getting close, but executive involved in deal says it's not finalized quite yet.

For as tight as Walt is on information if this much info has leaked out this deal has to be pretty much a done deal I would think.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe

By tonight. RT @BNightengale The #Indians & #Reds trade is getting close, but executive involved in deal says it's not finalized quite yet.

That's the guy that said we're getting Asdrubal too.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:48 PM
That's the guy that said we're getting Asdrubal too.

This is going to be an interesting evening. :lol:

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:48 PM
Walt loves making trades between the end of the Winter Meetings and before Christmas.

And I love Walt.

Blitz Dorsey
12-11-2012, 06:49 PM
This is exciting as hell. I hope my wife and kids don't mind the fact that I'll be sitting here reading RedsZone and eating popcorn the rest of the evening.

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:49 PM
For as tight as Walt is on information if this much info has leaked out this deal has to be pretty much a done deal I would think.

Or it's being leaked from the other side. After all....Fay's been out of pocket all day. LOL.

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:49 PM
This is exciting as hell. I hope my wife and kids don't mind the fact that I'll be sitting here reading RedsZone and eating popcorn the rest of the evening.

Tonight is "Girl's Night" for my wife. PERFECT! :lol:

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:49 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe

According to @hoynsie the #Indians #Reds and #Dbacks are currently all involved in a three-team deal. Choo & Cabrera among pieces moving.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 06:49 PM
Put me down for Stubbs having a resurgent year if he gets 500+ PA somewhere in 2013. I still think he's a .240/.320/.400 guy, good for ~3.5 WAR if he can just get out of his own head.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale
The #Dbacks would much prefer getting Gregorius back from the #Indians for young pitching than Cabrera

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe

According to @hoynsie the #Indians #Reds and #Dbacks are currently all involved in a three-team deal. Choo & Cabrera among pieces moving.

Is it still a three teamer or is the deal for Choo already made?

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Put me down for Stubbs having a resurgent year if he gets 500+ PA somewhere in 2013. I still think he's a .240/.320/.400 guy, good for ~3.5 WAR if he can just get out of his own head.

I agree. And to be honest, a change of scenery just might be the thing for Drew. I'd hate to see him go, but bringing in Choo is just too dreamy to pass up. :thumbup:

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Is it still a three teamer or is the deal for Choo already made?
It's all the same deal. It may not end up technically being a 3 way deal, but two different trades, but it's the same thing.

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:53 PM
Bob Nightengale ‏@BNightengale
The #Dbacks would much prefer getting Gregorius back from the #Indians for young pitching than Cabrera

I have an idea...

CIN trades Tony Cingrani, Dan Corcino, DiDi Gregorius and Drew Stubbs
ARI trades Trevor Bauer
CLE trades Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin Soo-Choo

CIN gets Asdrubal Cabrera, Shin Soo-Choo and Trevor Bauer
ARI gets DiDi Gregorius
CLE gets Tony Cingrani, Dan Corcino, and Drew Stubbs

How about that?!

Blitz Dorsey
12-11-2012, 06:54 PM
Put me down for Stubbs having a resurgent year if he gets 500+ PA somewhere in 2013. I still think he's a .240/.320/.400 guy, good for ~3.5 WAR if he can just get out of his own head.

Put me down for Drew Stubbs will always be atrocious.

indy_dave00
12-11-2012, 06:54 PM
No way the Reds trade all 3 Didi , Cingrani and Corcino at least I hope not. I don't want Cingrani dealt. Unless Choo will agree to an extension immediately.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Nick Camino ‏@CaminoTribe
Source: #Indians SS Asdrubal Cabrera will not be traded today, perhaps not even at all.

Well that was fun lol. I'll still take Choo.

KoryMac5
12-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Still in a fog on who the Indians send to D backs, Bowden seems to think Cabrera to the D Backs for SP's. Morosi and Rosenthal both believe Didi gets flipped per there twitter accts for possibly Bauer.

reds44
12-11-2012, 06:56 PM
So it's Didi and Stubbs for Choo and it sounds like it's pretty much done.

RedsManRick
12-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Here's a thought: Given BP's double play tendencies and Choo's batting from the left-hand side, why not bat BP leadoff and Choo 2nd?

_Sir_Charles_
12-11-2012, 06:56 PM
So it's Didi and Stubbs for Choo and it sounds like it's pretty much done.

I thought it was Didi and Stubbs for Choo and another position player?

Benihana
12-11-2012, 06:57 PM
Would anyone have rather traded DiDi for Bauer straight up?

Not saying I would, just asking...

indy_dave00
12-11-2012, 06:57 PM
Originally it was Didi and Stubbs for Choo and a 2nd player prob a minor leaguer?

mattfeet
12-11-2012, 06:58 PM
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Some rival evaluators very impressed with what CIN lineup might be:Choo, Phillips, Votto, Ludwick, Bruce, Frazier, Hanigan, Cozart. Balance.

Superdude
12-11-2012, 06:58 PM
So it's Didi and Stubbs for Choo and it sounds like it's pretty much done.

I have to bring myself down to the fact that I liked the original trade. I had some outrageous hopes there for a moment. :laugh:

chicoruiz
12-11-2012, 06:59 PM
I hope Arizona's unwillingness to take Cabrera instead of Gregorius doesn't put the kibosh on the Choo part of the deal.

757690
12-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Since the Tribe acquired Choo for Ben Broussard, does that mean the Reds finally won the Russell Branyon trade? ;)

KoryMac5
12-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Indians supposedly will try and get a deal for Swisher completed after letting go Choo in this trade.

Homer Bailey
12-11-2012, 07:04 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj982lBGSb1qixleeo1_250.gif

I'm fangirling right now... And I'm not even a girl

klw
12-11-2012, 07:05 PM
Here is a recent piece (November) on Choo's contract and extension possibilities.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121112&content_id=40253978&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb


Extending Choo's contract was a popular topic and seemed possible a few winters ago. The concept was floated again last offseason with no results. Signing Choo to a multi-year contract now -- in his final winter of arbitration eligibility -- seems like wishful thinking.

"We have, on numerous occasions, looked to try to extend Choo's stay in Cleveland," Indians general manager Chris Antonetti said Monday morning. "We've looked to extend his contract. We just haven't been able to reach an agreement."

That makes trading Choo a real possibility this winter.

An important part of the equation during negotiations over the past few years is the fact that Choo is represented by agent Scott Boras. History has shown that Boras' clients have consistently tested free agency when they become eligible in order to seek robust contracts. Rare is the player who -- under Boras' watch -- signs an extension during his arbitration years.

Choo, 30, earned $4.9 million last season and could net a salary in the $7-8 million range for the 2013 campaign through the arbitration process. Cleveland should (and will) listen to trade offers for Choo simply because due diligence dictates such an approach. One way or another, the right fielder seems destined to don another team's jersey in 2014.

And here is a piece on Chin's 2011 DUI arrest.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2011/05/cleveland_indians_of_shin-soo.html

Sheffield Lake Law Director David Graves said Choo was stopped on Lake Road (Route 6) at 2:25 a.m. when a police officer saw his car weaving on the road.
"The officer smelled alcohol on the driver's breath," said Graves. "He performed a field sobriety test and was taken back to the police test. Police said he also failed a Breathalzyer test, registering a .20 [more than twice the legal limit of .08]."

And here is piece which gives a "scouting report" on Choo as a potential trade target by a Yankees blog back last fall.
http://riveraveblues.com/2012/11/scouting-the-trade-market-shin-soo-choo-78753/
Here are the big cons:
The Cons

Choo is a pure platoon bat. Against left-handers he hit just .199/.318/.286 (78 wRC+) this year and .239/.329/.318 (86 wRC+) over the last three years. His strikeout rate (21.9% overall, 24.8% against lefties) is not awful but it is worse than the league average. He wouldn’t bring any significant contact skills to the offense.

Despite the stolen base totals, Choo is basically an average baserunner. He’s gone 55-for-74 in steal attempts the last three years, a solid but not stellar 74.3% success rate. He’s also taken the extra base just 40% of the time during these last three years, for all intents and purposes equal to the 41% league average.

The various defensive metrics just hammered Choo this year, bad enough that his three-year stats (-8.9 UZR, -4 DRS, -17 TZ, -0.4 FRAA) are all in the red. He generally graded out as average or better in 2010 and 2011 but apparently was just brutal this year.

It’s not the ugliest medical history you’ll find, but Choo is no stranger to the DL. He missed about a week with a hamstring issue this year (related to the poor defensive numbers?), about three months with thumb (surgery required) and oblique problems last year, and most of 2007 and 2008 with elbow problems that eventually required Tommy John surgery.

edabbs44
12-11-2012, 07:10 PM
If completed, just more validation as to why this regime should have the full faith and backing of Redszone. Don't bother with the day to day hand wringing, overall the moves will be made in line with reality.

I was getting up to speed on the thread while listening to White Christmas and it struck me as kind of ironic.

Matt700wlw
12-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Jocketty says "no comment"


We all know what that means :)

kaldaniels
12-11-2012, 07:12 PM
I'm happy with every starter in the lineup now.

Lets just stay healthy.