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Kc61
12-12-2012, 12:50 AM
Outfield looks set to me. Ludwick, Choo, Bruce, Heisey, Paul. Maybe add a depth guy who can play CF, but this unit looks set.

Infield is Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier, Donald. One more guy needed. The only lefty bat is Joey, so I'd guess the last guy hits lefty. Maybe Hannahan. Maybe Burriss.

Catcher is set with Hanigan and Mes.

Starting pitching also seems set with main four plus new addition Chapman.

Bullpen seems more unsettled. Broxton, Marshall, Hoover, Lecure, Simon probably locks. Leaves two spots open. Arredondo? Leake? Cingrani? New guy?

So it's a utility infielder and possibly a new reliever. Possibly AAA depth guys. Anything more this off-season would seem to be a longshot.

VR
12-12-2012, 12:52 AM
Outfield looks set to me. Ludwick, Choo, Bruce, Heisey, Paul. Maybe add a depth guy who can play CF, but this unit looks set.

Infield is Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier, Donald. One more guy needed. The only lefty bat is Joey, so I'd guess the last guy hits lefty. Maybe Hannahan. Maybe Burriss.

Catcher is set with Hanigan and Mes.

Starting pitching also seems set with main four plus new addition Chapman.

Bullpen seems more unsettled. Broxton, Marshall, Hoover, Lecure, Simon probably locks. Leaves two spots open. Arredondo? Leake? Cingrani? New guy?

So it's a utility infielder and possibly a new reliever. Possibly AAA depth guys. Anything more this off-season would seem to be a longshot.



A few short years ago middle relief and pinch hitters were the only sure things on the team, they lacked starting pitching, middle of the lineup, and anyone that could play defense.

Refreshing reminder of how good it is to be a Reds fan these days.

Nathan
12-12-2012, 01:02 AM
A few short years ago middle relief and pinch hitters were the only sure things on the team, they lacked starting pitching, middle of the lineup, and anyone that could play defense.

Refreshing reminder of how good it is to be a Reds fan these days.

And it's not like those are glaring weaknesses.

I'd say, one more guy off the bench. (Anything on the Hannrahan situation? I've seen nothing but the initial one tweet by the Minny guy.) Also, a lefty specialist, ala Dennys Reyes (not necessarily him).

DGullett35
12-12-2012, 01:04 AM
I think Cingrani gets a spot in the pen. We need the 2nd lefty with Chapman going to the rotation. The tribe did give us 3.5 mil so maybe we can do something with that as far as Hannahan or a lefty reliever

Kc61
12-12-2012, 01:08 AM
Only real mystery I see on this club right now is Mike Leake's role.

I just don't see him going to AAA at this stage.

Wonder. Will Chapman really start? Is there room for Leake as a long man in the pen?

Is it possible that Leake or another starter still gets traded, maybe for prospects?

Just seems odd to me that there is no real role for Mike on the team. He had a bad year, but you'd still figure there's a spot for him someplace on the team.

powersackers
12-12-2012, 01:13 AM
Only real mystery I see on this club right now is Mike Leake's role.

I just don't see him going to AAA at this stage.

Wonder. Will Chapman really start? Is there room for Leake as a long man in the pen?

Is it possible that Leake or another starter still gets traded, maybe for prospects?

Just seems odd to me that there is no real role for Mike on the team. He had a bad year, but you'd still figure there's a spot for him someplace on the team.

Leake is SP depth. I wouldn't trade him. Who's our depth without him?

Brutus
12-12-2012, 01:39 AM
Arroyo is coming off the books next year. No reason to trade Leake with CF and LF both filled.

I really think Leake will either be shipped to AAA to start the year if Chapman is in the rotation, or if they intend to delay Chapman's start until May to stretch him out to the end of the season, then Leake will start in the rotation and be moved to middle-relief.

membengal
12-12-2012, 07:39 AM
I still am in the camp that thinks Cingrani is headed to AAA to keep working as a starting pitcher.

buckeyenut
12-12-2012, 08:13 AM
The thing that strikes me is how little we could legitimately do to actually upgrade, now or in the future, at this point.

You have two real veterans on the roster in Ludwick and Arroyo. Everyone else is young or in their prime. You have two key free agents after 2013 in Arroyo and Choo and you have replacements (Leake and Hamilton) lined up for both. You have kids in the minors ready to step in for almost any hole and enough talent down there that if something major goes wrong, you can trade to fill a hole. And because of shrewd dealings, you likely have a payroll that has wiggle room at the deadline.

The only thing I can look at this team and say isn't ideal is the fact you don't have quite as much power in the 4 spot as I'd like to see. But that is nitpicking as Ludwick is more than servicable. We are talking the only real upgrade possibility being Ludwick to someone like Stanton or Frazier to Wright. But again, that is a conversation if you have the money of the Yankees, not the Reds.

This team has no holes I can see, for the first time since the BRM. I think it is going to be a fun year.

Since we are talking about backups, has anyone seen any word on what Rolen decided? Could he be our 25th man, backing up 1B/3B/LF (utilizing Frazier's flexibility)?

You also didn't mention Masset. Is he still on our payroll? Could he have an inside shot at the MR spot you had open?

cumberlandreds
12-12-2012, 08:25 AM
I still am in the camp that thinks Cingrani is headed to AAA to keep working as a starting pitcher.

That's what I think too. Leake will be in the pen as the long man and to provide depth to the rotation. He will get his fair share of starts. They will be careful with Chapman not to extend him out much and will probbaly push back some of his starts if he looks to be tiring.

redsmetz
12-12-2012, 08:32 AM
You also didn't mention Masset. Is he still on our payroll? Could he have an inside shot at the MR spot you had open?

Masset's going into the 2nd year of his two year deal, $3.1M with some performance bonuses, some of which are perhaps attainable, but not likely and they're modest dollar amounts; one to do with Games Finished and another for appearances over the life of the contract that he could conceivably make, although it's not likely given that he missed all of last year. Interestingly, that appearance clause is for 77 games and I wonder whether his six games at Louisville last year might count in that total. Still, it's only $50K, so not an onerous issue.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 08:39 AM
I think Cingrani gets a spot in the pen. We need the 2nd lefty with Chapman going to the rotation. The tribe did give us 3.5 mil so maybe we can do something with that as far as Hannahan or a lefty reliever

FWIW, that 3.5 million is going towards Choo I'd assume. He's due for an arbitration raise this season and I think that's supposed to cover that difference.

Always Red
12-12-2012, 08:42 AM
Rolen has not said for sure if he is retiring or not.

What happens if he says he wants back in, and how do the Reds handle that? Scott is smart enough to see that this team is a winner; he might want to go out on top, even if in a part time role.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 08:45 AM
Outfield looks set to me. Ludwick, Choo, Bruce, Heisey, Paul. Maybe add a depth guy who can play CF, but this unit looks set.

Infield is Votto, Phillips, Cozart, Frazier, Donald. One more guy needed. The only lefty bat is Joey, so I'd guess the last guy hits lefty. Maybe Hannahan. Maybe Burriss.

Catcher is set with Hanigan and Mes.

Starting pitching also seems set with main four plus new addition Chapman.

Bullpen seems more unsettled. Broxton, Marshall, Hoover, Lecure, Simon probably locks. Leaves two spots open. Arredondo? Leake? Cingrani? New guy?

So it's a utility infielder and possibly a new reliever. Possibly AAA depth guys. Anything more this off-season would seem to be a longshot.


I'd say you've nailed it with a couple exceptions. I'd say they'll definitely get Hannahan and Rolen will retire. Burriss will be in AAA. The 2 missing spots in the bullpen will be Arredondo and Massett. Both Leake and Cingrani will be in the AAA rotation. That extra LHRP people are wanting...I think that's essentially going to be Arredondo due to his odd splits. Just tossin in my 2 cents.

JaxRed
12-12-2012, 08:48 AM
I still am in the camp that thinks Cingrani is headed to AAA to keep working as a starting pitcher.

As am I

lidspinner
12-12-2012, 08:52 AM
I still am in the camp that thinks Cingrani is headed to AAA to keep working as a starting pitcher.

I am with ya pal.....Cingrani, and Corcino for that matter are the future of this team as far as starters are concerned....they both have above average stuff and both would start for more than a few clubs right now.....Give those 2 another year and they might just be future studs....at least they both have the make up for that......I see no reason wasting either of them, especially Cingrani in a bull pen role when there are other options out there for the pen.....I would give both of them one more year starting in the minors or spot starting for the Reds before I make the call to move them to the pen. Their upside is to high to toss in the pen right now.

medford
12-12-2012, 09:03 AM
I think at some point they get a Dontrel Willis type lefty on a minor league contract w/ a legit shot to be the 2nd left hander in the bullpen. If that guy makes the cut (or Chapman is relegated to the bullpen for whatever reason, Cingrani goes to AAA to keep working as a starter, if Cingrinrani has a good spring, he takes the 2nd lefty role next season.

Dan
12-12-2012, 09:23 AM
I'm in the camp that thinks obtaining a LH batting backup and LHP bullpen guy are the only major holes to fill.

Cingrani, Corcino and Redman as kids in AAA would be complimented nicely by a veteran like John Lannan. Stephenson will be in AAA by season's end if he progresses like he did last year. (My addendum to Princeton's law: "challenge thy hitters and coddle thy pitchers" is that "when a pitcher is ready, he's ready; when a hitter is ready, he sometimes isn't." Stephenson is close to ready now.)

Lutz, HRod, B-Ham will all be available in AAA too, if the emergency need arises. Veteran hitters would be nice to stash there too.

IF the Reds were so inclined, a trade for Chase Headley would really secure the lineup. But I don't think that's at all realistic.

Blitz Dorsey
12-12-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm in the camp that thinks obtaining a LH batting backup and LHP bullpen guy are the only major holes to fill.

Cingrani, Corcino and Redman as kids in AAA would be complimented nicely by a veteran like John Lannan. Stephenson will be in AAA by season's end if he progresses like he did last year. (My addendum to Princeton's law: "challenge thy hitters and coddle thy pitchers" is that "when a pitcher is ready, he's ready; when a hitter is ready, he sometimes isn't." Stephenson is close to ready now.)

Lutz, HRod, B-Ham will all be available in AAA too, if the emergency need arises. Veteran hitters would be nice to stash there too.

IF the Reds were so inclined, a trade for Chase Headley would really secure the lineup. But I don't think that's at all realistic.

Stephenson struggled at low-A Dayton last year in his brief stint there. He'll probably start the year out at Dayton and I expect a call-up to Bakersfield before long. But Triple-A by the end of the year? No way. I hope you're right, but I don't see it.

corkedbat
12-12-2012, 09:39 AM
They're dealing from strength in almost all areas now. Aside from maybe signing Hanrahan and possibly two or three AAAA-types to compete for depth on the bench, in the pen or in Louisville's rotation, I don't see them needing to make any deals. If something came along that might let them land a near major-league ready guy that can help in the future though, I'd consider it.

bellhead
12-12-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm in the camp that thinks obtaining a LH batting backup and LHP bullpen guy are the only major holes to fill.

Cingrani, Corcino and Redman as kids in AAA would be complimented nicely by a veteran like John Lannan. Stephenson will be in AAA by season's end if he progresses like he did last year. (My addendum to Princeton's law: "challenge thy hitters and coddle thy pitchers" is that "when a pitcher is ready, he's ready; when a hitter is ready, he sometimes isn't." Stephenson is close to ready now.)

Lutz, HRod, B-Ham will all be available in AAA too, if the emergency need arises. Veteran hitters would be nice to stash there too.

IF the Reds were so inclined, a trade for Chase Headley would really secure the lineup. But I don't think that's at all realistic.

Stephenson may well be in AAA, but will need several years to build up his innings count, in reality he may get to taste AA next year...

RedEye
12-12-2012, 10:11 AM
Stephenson may well be in AAA, but will need several years to build up his innings count, in reality he may get to taste AA next year...

Yeah, we don't want to pull a Homer Bailey on this kid. Give him time.

Tom Servo
12-12-2012, 10:27 AM
Bullpen is the only area where I'd like to see a free agency signing or trade to add another quality arm.

osuceltic
12-12-2012, 10:27 AM
Rolen has not said for sure if he is retiring or not.

What happens if he says he wants back in, and how do the Reds handle that? Scott is smart enough to see that this team is a winner; he might want to go out on top, even if in a part time role.

Seems to me he either comes back as the starter or not at all. I can't see them using a 25-man roster spot on a bench guy who has spent his entire career at one position, can't possibly play anywhere other than third or first, and has no history as a pinch-hitter.

And, since I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be able to be a starter at this point, I don't think Rolen will be back.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 10:43 AM
I'd say you've nailed it with a couple exceptions. I'd say they'll definitely get Hannahan and Rolen will retire. Burriss will be in AAA. The 2 missing spots in the bullpen will be Arredondo and Massett. Both Leake and Cingrani will be in the AAA rotation. That extra LHRP people are wanting...I think that's essentially going to be Arredondo due to his odd splits. Just tossin in my 2 cents.

I don't agree on this one, Charles. Walt is going for it. Arredondo can be effective against lefties, but he was ineffective against EVERYBODY second half last year.

There will be a second lefty in the bullpen IMO. And FWIW I would make it a good one.

Keep in mind that Chappy is out of the pen, a huge loss for the pen. The Reds will have to counteract that with depth. They need good relievers, one after the other.

Just a guess, but I'd think the Reds will try and move Ondrusek and possibly Arredondo and replace them with a lefty. Hoover will play a big role this year, hope he comes through, he'll likely join the late innings crew with Brox and Marshall.

As for Masset, I think he'll begin at AAA after missing a season and then the Reds will see what he has.

mace
12-12-2012, 10:45 AM
It'd be a small move, but I'd look for them to sign a veteran catcher, preferably a LH hitter, to be assigned to Louisville. Dioner Navarro redux (although, yeah, he's a switch-hitter). They need the depth for the major-league club and could also use a veteran to handle the AAA pitchers. That said, I have no idea who would be available along those lines.

Steve4192
12-12-2012, 10:45 AM
Seems to me he either comes back as the starter or not at all. I can't see them using a 25-man roster spot on a bench guy who has spent his entire career at one position, can't possibly play anywhere other than third or first, and has no history as a pinch-hitter.

And, since I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be able to be a starter at this point, I don't think Rolen will be back.

I could see them bringing Rolen back and moving Frazier back to his 'four corners' bench role. There will still be plenty of at bats available for him backing up 1B/3B/LF/RF. Rolen is only good for about 100 games a year, and Ludwick will probably miss 30-40 games as well. That's nearly a hundred starts for Todd just between those two positions. If Bruce or Votto get dinged up, that's even more playing time for him.

Steve4192
12-12-2012, 10:47 AM
It'd be a small move, but I'd look for them to sign a veteran catcher, preferably a LH hitter, to be assigned to Louisville. Dioner Navarro redux (although, yeah, he's a switch-hitter). They need the depth for the major-league club and could also use a veteran to handle the AAA pitchers. That said, I have no idea who would be available along those lines.

I also expect them to sign a legit major league glove-man to play SS for Louisville just in case Cozart gets hurt. I don't they want to be stuck playing Donald or Burris at shortstop for any extended period of time.

mdccclxix
12-12-2012, 11:05 AM
I still look for them to be in money saving mode and may try to dump some of the arb salaries (Arredondo, Ondrusek, Heisey, Masset somehow, even Leake) in exchange for the pieces you guys have mentioned, or possibly extend Latos and or Bailey with some savings built in this year. Maybe I've been Fay'd, but the budget looks really bloated, nearing 100 mil before the Arroyo deferal. :eek: Heck, they may extend Leake, how bout that?

PuffyPig
12-12-2012, 11:10 AM
As for Masset, I think he'll begin at AAA after missing a season and then the Reds will see what he has.


I think he is out of options, so it would have to be a DL/rehabilitation stint.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 11:48 AM
With Lotzkar likely heading to the 'pen in Pensacola, I want to keep Cingrani as a starter.

IMO the bullpen is fine as is:

CL Broxton
SU Marshall
RHP Simon
RHP Hoover
RHP LeCure
RHP Arredondo OR Masset OR a LHP*

*If they can get a decent LHP in a buy-low situation and let him compete in ST, great. Otherwise I am fine with Arredondo or Masset and Marshall being the only lefty in the pen to start the year. Likely this spot ends up getting filled by Leake or Cingrani (just for this year - still want him as a longterm starter, kind of like the David Price approach) before the year is out.

Doc. Scott
12-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Stephenson struggled at low-A Dayton last year in his brief stint there. He'll probably start the year out at Dayton and I expect a call-up to Bakersfield before long. But Triple-A by the end of the year? No way. I hope you're right, but I don't see it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Stephenson is held in Dayton for some extra time and then skipped straight to Pensacola.

paulrichjr
12-12-2012, 12:33 PM
I could see them bringing Rolen back and moving Frazier back to his 'four corners' bench role. There will still be plenty of at bats available for him backing up 1B/3B/LF/RF. Rolen is only good for about 100 games a year, and Ludwick will probably miss 30-40 games as well. That's nearly a hundred starts for Todd just between those two positions. If Bruce or Votto get dinged up, that's even more playing time for him.

Dusty said at RedsFest that Frazier is his starting 3B. He said that he has earned it. Both he and Walt have spoken to Rolen and he is almost certainly going to retire. They didn't come right out and say for sure that he would but they left no doubt. There was no doubt at all who they consider the 3B in 2013.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 01:19 PM
I don't agree on this one, Charles. Walt is going for it. Arredondo can be effective against lefties, but he was ineffective against EVERYBODY second half last year.

There will be a second lefty in the bullpen IMO. And FWIW I would make it a good one.

Keep in mind that Chappy is out of the pen, a huge loss for the pen. The Reds will have to counteract that with depth. They need good relievers, one after the other.

Just a guess, but I'd think the Reds will try and move Ondrusek and possibly Arredondo and replace them with a lefty. Hoover will play a big role this year, hope he comes through, he'll likely join the late innings crew with Brox and Marshall.

As for Masset, I think he'll begin at AAA after missing a season and then the Reds will see what he has.

I'd have no problem dealing Logan & Jose for a better reliever. None at all. But I'd be surprised if it happened is all. I think the roster is set for 2013 right now. I think Hannahan was the final piece of the puzzle for Walt.

And Nick, I think he'll be ready come spring training. Besides, does he even have any options left?

dfs
12-12-2012, 01:22 PM
I would not be shocked at all if Walt goes out and gets a flycatcher. Somebody like Cory Patterson getting an invite to spring training.

The reds have 5 guys (Ludwick, Bruce, Choo, Paul and Heisey) who nominally can cover center, but none of them are really centerfielders. This arrangement can fly here at GAB or at Wrigley, but when they go at west to Petco/Dodger Stadium/Coors? They'll need somebody who can really cover the ground out there.

I'm not talking about somebody that they'll spend any resources on whatsoever. Jeremy Hermida was "free." I'll be shocked if they don't do something like that. Stash the "lucky" guy in AAA and then bring him up when they go west.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 01:27 PM
I would not be shocked at all if Walt goes out and gets a flycatcher. Somebody like Cory Patterson getting an invite to spring training.

The reds have 5 guys (Ludwick, Bruce, Choo, Paul and Heisey) who nominally can cover center, but none of them are really centerfielders. This arrangement can fly here at GAB or at Wrigley, but when they go at west to Petco/Dodger Stadium/Coors? They'll need somebody who can really cover the ground out there.

I'm not talking about somebody that they'll spend any resources on whatsoever. Jeremy Hermida was "free." I'll be shocked if they don't do something like that. Stash the "lucky" guy in AAA and then bring him up when they go west.

The one problem with stashing the guy at AAA is that Louisville already has two CF that are prospects: Billy Hamilton and Ryan LaMarre. How would said player get any games at CF?

Tom Servo
12-12-2012, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't be counting on anything from Masset. If we do get anything, it's just a nice bonus.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 01:48 PM
With Lotzkar likely heading to the 'pen in Pensacola, I want to keep Cingrani as a starter.

IMO the bullpen is fine as is:

CL Broxton
SU Marshall
RHP Simon
RHP Hoover
RHP LeCure
RHP Arredondo OR Masset OR a LHP*

*If they can get a decent LHP in a buy-low situation and let him compete in ST, great. Otherwise I am fine with Arredondo or Masset and Marshall being the only lefty in the pen to start the year. Likely this spot ends up getting filled by Leake or Cingrani (just for this year - still want him as a longterm starter, kind of like the David Price approach) before the year is out.

I guess I'm not that overly concerned with the Reds' financial statement. Whether they buy low, high or medium doesn't concern me very much in terms of dollars.

I'm not sure if you forgot someone, but the pen as you list needs bolstering. Little depth. Hoover is unproven. Masset injured. Arredondo struggled. Simon is a decent long man not for the late innings. Ondrusek didn't even make your post. Cingrani should be at AAA starting.

The pen needs another good reliever. A lefty would give them Broxton, Marshall, Hoover (hopefully ready) and another guy for the later innings.

Lecure is then free for the middle.

Arredondo could have been that additional guy, but right now I don't have confidence he can do it. He fell apart last season.

Not many pens could withstand the loss of Chapman and the Reds need to bolster theirs, if possible. It's a long season, you need a lot of good relievers.

HokieRed
12-12-2012, 01:51 PM
I guess I'm not that overly concerned with the Reds' financial statement. Whether they buy low, high or medium doesn't concern me very much in terms of dollars.

I'm not sure if you forgot someone, but the pen as you list needs bolstering. Little depth. Hoover is unproven. Masset injured. Arredondo struggled. Simon is a decent long man not for the late innings. Ondrusek didn't even make your post. Cingrani should be at AAA starting.

The pen needs another good reliever. A lefty would give them Broxton, Marshall, Hoover (hopefully ready) and another guy for the later innings.

Lecure is then free for the middle.

Arredondo could have been that additional guy, but right now I don't have confidence he can do it. He fell apart last season.

Not many pens could withstand the loss of Chapman and the Reds need to bolster theirs, if possible. It's a long season, you need a lot of good relievers.

Agree and Jocketty's good at acquiring them. I suspect we'll see another name not yet in the org. A late pickup on the order of last year's Simon deal wouldn't surprise me at all.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 01:52 PM
I guess I'm not that overly concerned with the Reds' financial statement. Whether they buy low, high or medium doesn't concern me very much.

I'm not sure if you forgot someone, but the pen as you list needs bolstering. Little depth. Hoover is unproven. Masset injured. Arredondo struggled. Simon is a decent long man not for the late innings. Ondrusek didn't even make your post. Cingrani should be at AAA starting.

The pen needs another good reliever. A lefty would give them Broxton, Marshall, Hoover (hopefully ready) and another guy for the later innings.

Lecure is then free for the middle.

Arredondo could have been that additional guy, but right now I don't have confidence he can do it. He fell apart last season.

Not many pens could withstand the loss of Chapman and the Reds need to bolster theirs, if possible.

What would Redszone be if Kc wasn't trying to improve the bullpen? It's like me trying to trade for Justin Upton.

I don't think this pen needs improving. Masset and Arredondo both have their question marks, but that's why I'm comfortable allocating one spot to Masset OR Arredondo OR a new LHP. Everyone else is relatively proven. Hoover looked great last year in 24 appearances - that's enough for me for the least proven guy in the pen. Everyone else has proven over multiple seasons they can shoulder the load they are being asked to.

Reds had one of the best pens in the league last year, and while Chapman has been taken away, Broxton and Hoover have been added for full seasons (as opposed to half) and everyone else has another year of seasoning.

For depth they can turn to guys they know can get major league hitters out, guys like Logan Ondrusek and possibly Leake or Cingrani, who may be continuing to hone their craft in AAA.

So what's the problem?

If they bring in anyone else, it should be a LOOGY to replace Masset/Arredondo. Other than that, this unit is more than fine as far as I'm concerned.

Kc61
12-12-2012, 02:02 PM
What would Redszone be if Kc wasn't trying to improve the bullpen? It's like me trying to trade for Justin Upton.

I don't think this pen needs improving. Masset and Arredondo both have their question marks, but that's why I'm comfortable allocating one spot to Masset OR Arredondo OR a new LHP. Everyone else is relatively proven. Hoover looked great last year in 24 appearances - that's enough for me for the least proven guy in the pen. Everyone else has proven over multiple seasons they can shoulder the load they are being asked to.

Reds had one of the best pens in the league last year, and while Chapman has been taken away, Broxton and Hoover have been added for full seasons (as opposed to half) and everyone else has another year of seasoning.

For depth they can turn to guys they know can get major league hitters out, guys like Logan Ondrusek and possibly Leake or Cingrani, who may be continuing to hone their craft in AAA.

So what's the problem?

If they bring in anyone else, it should be a LOOGY to replace Masset/Arredondo. Other than that, this unit is more than fine as far as I'm concerned.

I thought last year's pen was a bit overrated. Oh, it was good. But Chapman's numbers were so outstanding that he made the pen appear better than it was, at least statistically.

The way I see the bullpen is five guys who are good or expected to be. Hoover, Lecure, Marshall, Brox, and Simon for longer stints.

I wouldn't fill the remaining two spots with maybes. I'd like one more very good reliever.

RedsManRick
12-12-2012, 02:04 PM
Sure would be nice to have Jeremy Horst, huh?

Will M
12-12-2012, 02:37 PM
I agree with folks who would like another late inning reliever.

I am not sure Paul is the best 5th OF. Maybe a CF who plays great defense would be useful to plug in late in games where we have the lead.

Always Red
12-12-2012, 03:03 PM
I am not sure Paul is the best 5th OF. Maybe a CF who plays great defense would be useful to plug in late in games where we have the lead.

I like this idea a lot.

dfs
12-12-2012, 03:24 PM
The one problem with stashing the guy at AAA is that Louisville already has two CF that are prospects: Billy Hamilton and Ryan LaMarre. How would said player get any games at CF?

d'oh. yeah. you are right. Whoever the designated CF fly catcher is he will have to beat out Paul for a roster slot.

Edd Roush
12-12-2012, 03:28 PM
I agree with folks who would like another late inning reliever.

I am not sure Paul is the best 5th OF. Maybe a CF who plays great defense would be useful to plug in late in games where we have the lead.

I also like the idea of bringing in a great glove for a competition for an outfield spot, but I honestly have Paul on square footing in this fight vs. Heisey. Paul clearly outperformed Heisey at the plate in 96 PAs last year (.314/.379/.465) albeit with a bloated .379 BABIP. Heisey's more reasonable .328 BABIP yielded a .265/.315/.401 line in 375 PAs. Heisey's career line of .259/.315/.438 in 909 PAs certainly beats Paul's .259/.308/.364 in 507 PAs. I just am kind of buying the narrative that Paul was a better ballplayer in 2012 than Heisey was, although that may be a function of a small sample size. Either way, let's bring in a legit defensive CF for a shot at an outfield spot and give Paul a shot to beat out Heisey for the other outfield spot.

Vottomatic
12-12-2012, 03:48 PM
I don't know much about these guys, but apparently they haven't been signed, unless baseball-reference.com is simply behind.

Luke Scott
Bill Hall
Austin Kearns
Juan Rivera
Ryan Sweeney
Ben Francisco

OldRightHander
12-12-2012, 06:13 PM
As am I

You're headed to AAA to work as a starter? I missed that one.

PuffyPig
12-12-2012, 06:19 PM
I also like the idea of bringing in a great glove for a competition for an outfield spot, but I honestly have Paul on square footing in this fight vs. Heisey. Paul clearly outperformed Heisey at the plate in 96 PAs last year (.314/.379/.465) albeit with a bloated .379 BABIP. Heisey's more reasonable .328 BABIP yielded a .265/.315/.401 line in 375 PAs. Heisey's career line of .259/.315/.438 in 909 PAs certainly beats Paul's .259/.308/.364 in 507 PAs. I just am kind of buying the narrative that Paul was a better ballplayer in 2012 than Heisey was, although that may be a function of a small sample size. Either way, let's bring in a legit defensive CF for a shot at an outfield spot and give Paul a shot to beat out Heisey for the other outfield spot.

I doubt Paul has any chance to beat out Heisey for a roster spot. Paul will always have to prove he belongs, and is likely one sustained slump from being permanently banished to the minors. Heisey is, more or less, guaranteed a roster spot. His power and ability to play all OF spots competently ensures that.

Marc D
12-12-2012, 09:28 PM
The Dodgers just DFA'd Van Slyke.

I would take a flyer on this kid in a heart beat.

Tony Cloninger
12-12-2012, 09:50 PM
Sure would be nice to have Jeremy Horst, huh?

You know...I get ripped for bringing that trade up and how....anyone should care about AAA fodder like him and now yes...it would be nice to still have him. He might be just some LOOGY or a replaceable LH out of the pen, but he sure is a lot better than some thought.

Edd Roush
12-12-2012, 09:50 PM
I doubt Paul has any chance to beat out Heisey for a roster spot. Paul will always have to prove he belongs, and is likely one sustained slump from being permanently banished to the minors. Heisey is, more or less, guaranteed a roster spot. His power and ability to play all OF spots competently ensures that.

I'm not doubting that you are correct. I am just saying that if I was Walt, I wouldn't guarantee Heisey a roster spot. Heisey really does nothing very well, and his versatility doesn't do much for me. I think Paul may have the better bat now and that's what I want out of that bench spot. Either would be the first pinch hitter off the bench (if the other outfielder was the centerfielder defensive specialist) and therefore, if Paul's bat supremacy beats out Heisey's versatility speciality, I would let Paul take Heisey's roster spot.

corkedbat
12-12-2012, 10:35 PM
The Dodgers just DFA'd Van Slyke.

I would take a flyer on this kid in a heart beat.

I'd be all for a minor league contract for van Slyke with an invite.

corkedbat
12-12-2012, 10:39 PM
You know...I get ripped for bringing that trade up and how....anyone should care about AAA fodder like him and now yes...it would be nice to still have him. He might be just some LOOGY or a replaceable LH out of the pen, but he sure is a lot better than some thought.

MLBTR says the Phils may deal Horst, Raul Valdes or Antonio Bastardo. Of those three, Horst would be third on my wishlist.

Patrick Bateman
12-12-2012, 10:51 PM
You know...I get ripped for bringing that trade up and how....anyone should care about AAA fodder like him and now yes...it would be nice to still have him. He might be just some LOOGY or a replaceable LH out of the pen, but he sure is a lot better than some thought.

Well, evertime you bring it up you make it seem like the Reds committed a sin. The facts are:

1. He aged out as a minor league free agent with the Reds
2. The Reds managed to sign him to a minor league deal that ANY TEAM COULD HAVE OUTBID THE REDS FOR.
3. The Reds traded him for a bench player that they felt they needed


Horst pitched his best after essentially every team passed up on him. It's difficult to be critical of a move the Reds made that basically every team showed no indication of pursuing. He had a nice season, but we can probably stop acting like this was an obvious move that the Reds performed badly in pursuing.

Vottomatic
12-12-2012, 11:08 PM
The Dodgers just DFA'd Van Slyke.

I would take a flyer on this kid in a heart beat.

Seems strange. I know they are paying out huge contracts and have a team full of all-stars. But the kid was hitting .300+ in the PCL last year. Seems like they would have tried to make a trade or something.

I'd take a flyer on him. Good genes.

Patrick Bateman
12-12-2012, 11:31 PM
Seems strange. I know they are paying out huge contracts and have a team full of all-stars. But the kid was hitting .300+ in the PCL last year. Seems like they would have tried to make a trade or something.

I'd take a flyer on him. Good genes.


They obviously would have tried to trade him. If anybody wanted him a deal would have easily been made.

Position inflexible guys who only hit significantly in the PCL don't go for much.

Vottomatic
12-13-2012, 12:10 AM
They obviously would have tried to trade him. If anybody wanted him a deal would have easily been made.

Position inflexible guys who only hit significantly in the PCL don't go for much.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=475100

I dunno. Van Slyke hit .348 in double AA in 2011. Then he hit .327 in triple A in the PCL in 2012. He combined to hit 38 HR's and 78 doubles over that 2 year period. He turned 26 in July. His slugging and OPS his last 2 years in the minors were really impressive. And he's a big kid.......6'5" - 250 lbs, righthanded.

I'm not saying give him a roster spot. I'm saying stick him at Louisville and see if he continues to hit. Maybe he replaces Heisey at some point? Maybe he slugs 25-30 HR's and replaces Ludwick at some point? Or....maybe he bombs and the Reds release him.

No harm in trying. Nothing to lose. Major league team is set.

Patrick Bateman
12-13-2012, 12:14 AM
Right, but the reason he's DFA'd because nobody wants to guarantee a roster spot. There's probably 25 teams willing to give him a AAA spot, so getting him in the fold is easier said than done.

Vottomatic
12-13-2012, 12:17 AM
Right, but the reason he's DFA'd because nobody wants to guarantee a roster spot. There's probably 25 teams willing to give him a AAA spot, so getting him in the fold is easier said than done.

Oh. I'm in agreement on that one. The Astros, Pirates, Cubs........all the rebuilding teams and bottomdwellars will be after him.

RedlegJake
12-13-2012, 10:53 AM
I'd love to see Van Slyke but only with a AAA deal and that would be hard to do since I don' t want to trade for him. His premiere was lackluster and took some of my enthusiasm off. PCL stats can mislead even when they seem gargantuan. As a free pick I imagine any of the bottomdwellers will snag him first. Patrick got me looking hard last year...now I think I prefer LaMarre as a prospect anyway.

757690
12-13-2012, 11:02 AM
Van Slyke has a huge swing and can't hit a breaking ball to save his life. Much worse than Wliy Mo. I'd pass.

REDREAD
12-13-2012, 01:16 PM
I'm not talking about somebody that they'll spend any resources on whatsoever. Jeremy Hermida was "free." I'll be shocked if they don't do something like that. Stash the "lucky" guy [cf] in AAA and then bring him up when they go west.

I could see then signing a guy like this for depth, but who do they bump down to AAA when this guy is called up for a west coast trip?
Maybe Donald has options, but he's the backup SS.
Not sure any other bench player can be sent down..

I think they will use Heisey for late game subs and live with that.
Yea, we are going to be hurting a bit in big parks, I agree with that. I just don't see a solution other than playing Heisey. Although I guess I'm not totally convinced that Heisey would be significantly better than Bruce/Choo.
I'm also not sure I want to lose Choo's bat just because they're playing in a big park. Might be better to just bite the bullet and let the extra hit or two fall in.

Edit: Now I see you say to let the new CF compete with X Paul. That makes a lot of sense.
I kind of forgot that Hanahan can fill the role of LH bat off the bench if need be.
Good food for thought.

Gallen5862
12-14-2012, 05:48 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

The Angels have a surplus of outfielders following their agreement with Josh Hamilton, and there’s reason to believe GM Jerry Dipoto will make a deal to balance out his roster. The Angels are “very likely” to trade an outfielder such as Peter Bourjos or Mark Trumbo for a pitcher, Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter). Depending on the return, either player could be moved. Trumbo seems less available than Bourjos, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports (on Twitter).


Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#AsGg7v6dss3LAbrK.99

Both Bourjos and Trumbo will remain under team control through 2016 and won't be arbitration eligible until after the 2013 season. Earlier today, Dave Cameron of FanGraphs explained that Bourjos closely resembles Cameron Maybin and suggested he’d be a worthwhile pickup for a team in need of a center fielder.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#AsGg7v6dss3LAbrK.99

Gallen5862
12-14-2012, 05:49 PM
Would it be worth the Reds trying to trade a pitcher for either Peter Bourjos or Mark Trumbo? What would be a good offer?

corkedbat
12-14-2012, 06:24 PM
Was going to post about this also. I know we don't really need another corner OF, but I'd love to have Trumbo. Leake, Heisey and any two (or three) of Ondrusek, Massett, Arredondo, Soto and Lotzkar for Mark Trumbo & C Hank Conger.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/angels-likely-to-trade-outfielder.html

Kc61
12-14-2012, 11:03 PM
Was going to post about this also. I know we don't really need another corner OF, but I'd love to have Trumbo. Leake, Heisey and any two (or three) of Ondrusek, Massett, Arredondo, Soto and Lotzkar for Mark Trumbo & C Hank Conger.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/angels-likely-to-trade-outfielder.html

LOL, I think you forgot Negron, Phipps, and Redmond. Reds might throw all of them in as well.

Tom Servo
12-14-2012, 11:13 PM
Putting aside the fact that we don't have a position for Trumbo to play, why on Earth would the Angels take our collection of fringe guys for a talent like Trumbo?

RedEye
12-14-2012, 11:33 PM
I wonder if Walt ever inquired about Bourjos? He seems like a player that would have been a fit for the Reds as well.