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View Full Version : Your favorite Jocketty deal?



Brutus
12-12-2012, 04:21 PM
Curious which deal rates as your favorite that Jocketty has done since arriving in Cincinnati?

kaldaniels
12-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Latos.

Caveman Techie
12-12-2012, 04:22 PM
Latos for me as well. He traded from surplus to get a potential ace.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 04:25 PM
Latos was the best acquisition, but I think I like the Choo deal the best because I think what we got vs. what we gave up was the best ratio...if that makes sense.

In other words, Latos was an A acquisition but we paid a B+ price.
Choo was an A- acquisition but IMO we paid like a C- price. I will not really miss Stubbs or DiDi- two guys I'm happy to trade for an improvement that fits like a glove.

I'd probably rank them like this:
1. Trade for Choo
2. Trade for Latos
3. Signing of Chapman - this could easily vault to #1 if he proves that he can be a successful starter.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 04:26 PM
I'd submit Cueto and Bruce's extensions for consideration as well.

One could argue for Votto and BP while you're at it, but I think most of us would agree that Cueto and Bruce's extensions were much more impressive accomplishments for Walt (as opposed to Bob just opening up his wallet.)

Brutus
12-12-2012, 04:27 PM
I voted for Latos, but I was also tickled pink with what they gave up (or didn't give up) for Choo.

Brutus
12-12-2012, 04:27 PM
I'd submit Cueto and Bruce's extensions for consideration as well.

One could argue for Votto and BP while you're at it, but I think most of us would agree that Cueto and Bruce's extensions were much more impressive accomplishments for Walt (as opposed to Bob just opening up his wallet.)

Very good points. And that I was able to compile a list of eight options without even considering those signings just shows how far this organization has come in the past 3-5 years.

mattfeet
12-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Latos.

Same here.

kaldaniels
12-12-2012, 04:28 PM
I read the question as deal=trades.

Can't say it changes much but I didn't really consider FA signings,extensions,etc.

WildcatFan
12-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Latos. That and the Chapman move signaled a new era of Reds baseball to me.

Nathan
12-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Chapman. Everyone was expecting big money teams to sign him, and in the eleventh hour, the Reds swooped in and grabbed him. It was a truly pleasant surprise.

UKFlounder
12-12-2012, 04:31 PM
Latos was great, but the shock of the Chapman signing still sticks with me.

Edd Roush
12-12-2012, 04:34 PM
I went with the Latos deal. Walt dealt away a lot, but Latos is worth way more than the sum of the parts he dealt away. Latos is still just scratching the surface and he will be a TOR starter for many years to come in Cincinnati.

kaldaniels
12-12-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm sure it could be argued with conflicting examples, but to me the Latos deal symbolized the ending of hoarding prospects, i.e. no prospect was safe from being dealt to upgrade the team in Cincy's needs.

Quality over quanity.

_Sir_Charles_
12-12-2012, 04:39 PM
3 I've loved. Marshall, Latos and Choo. Marshall gets the last slot though because he gave up my favorite prospect Torreyes. Loved the acquisition though. Choo was my favorite target for a few years now. But snagging Latos for Volquez and redundant parts was by far the best deal of the bunch.

*BaseClogger*
12-12-2012, 04:48 PM
My favorite was the Ryan Madson signing because even though it didn't work out it was the kind of creative, win-now type move I had never seen out of my Reds before...

Caveat Emperor
12-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Scott Rolen transformed the culture of the organization. He gave the young talent an example, every day/night, of how a Hall of Famer prepares, plays, and carries himself as a ballplayer.

By far my favorite deal Walt has made.

PuffyPig
12-12-2012, 04:55 PM
I put Chapman #1 as it singled the start of a new ERA in Cincy. The rest have just added to the fact.

wolfboy
12-12-2012, 04:57 PM
I had to go with the Chapman signing. The upside is much higher than with any of his other acquisitions. Not only that, but the Reds would have never been suspected to pull off a move like that.

RedsManRick
12-12-2012, 05:02 PM
I voted Chapman because it was both non-obvious (as opposed to the Latos deal, where we had obvious excess talent) and a game changer from a perception standpoint. That signing announced that the Reds weren't messing around.

George Anderson
12-12-2012, 05:57 PM
Chapman....it was the first time in a very long time I felt that this organization was done jacking around.

edabbs44
12-12-2012, 05:57 PM
Besides the deal that brought Walt to Cincy, I agree with most sentiments about Aroldis. Complete game changer.

George Anderson
12-12-2012, 06:06 PM
Dp

HokieRed
12-12-2012, 06:11 PM
Rolen. Transformed the ballclub.

corkedbat
12-12-2012, 07:31 PM
I went with Chapman because it was just so completely out of LF. Huge signing and I wasn't expecting anything like it.

RedEye
12-12-2012, 07:55 PM
Does hiring Walt Jocketty count as a Walt Jocketty move? Previous GM's were okay at finding talent, but none of them could close a deal like WJ.

Roy Tucker
12-12-2012, 08:02 PM
Latos. It was the tipping point from pretty good staff to a dominant one.

Benihana
12-12-2012, 08:32 PM
How about NOT trading Homer Bailey for Jermaine Dye, or even worse- Votto and Bailey for Erik Bedard (or was that Krivsky?)

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 08:33 PM
Clicked on Chapman. Meant to click on Latos.

marcshoe
12-12-2012, 09:14 PM
Chapman over Latos, barely. Love the Rolen and Choo deals, but making pitching a strength in this ballpark took vision.

CarolinaRedleg
12-12-2012, 09:24 PM
Latos. Sending blocked prospects plus a guy I would have personally driven at my own expense to San Diego, Toronto, Seattle, Abu Dhabi or anywhere distant just to be rid of, for a young, legit, top of the rotation arm.

Vottomatic
12-12-2012, 09:54 PM
I like the Choo trade. We gave up nothing and got possibly the piece of the puzzle that sends this team to a championship.

Stubbs was a bust.
Gregorius will be a utility infielder in the majors. That's his ceiling.

757690
12-12-2012, 10:00 PM
Scott Rolen transformed the culture of the organization. He gave the young talent an example, every day/night, of how a Hall of Famer prepares, plays, and carries himself as a ballplayer.

By far my favorite deal Walt has made.

Totally agree.

No way the Reds are contenders if this trade isn't made. Can't say that about any other deal.

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 10:40 PM
Totally agree.

No way the Reds are contenders if this trade isn't made. Can't say that about any other deal.

Really? No way? So all of our players are all of a sudden this good because of what Scott Rolen told them along the way? Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen? Jay Bruce is the same way? Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Aroldis Chapman and Mat Latos are only as good as they are because of the magical words of Scott Rolen? :laugh:

Patrick Bateman
12-12-2012, 10:44 PM
Going with Rolen.

That maybe changed the culture in a way we will never be able to understand. It didn't seem like much at the time, but signaled a complete shift in the way the organization worked.

kaldaniels
12-12-2012, 11:11 PM
Really? No way? So all of our players are all of a sudden this good because of what Scott Rolen told them along the way? Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen? Jay Bruce is the same way? Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Aroldis Chapman and Mat Latos are only as good as they are because of the magical words of Scott Rolen? :laugh:

I'm thinking 757690 may not have completely expressed his thoughts properly there...but what do I know.

However, I know you are not a fan of that trade Doug, but lets heed the words of Joey Votto himself regarding Rolen.

"He changed my path as a player."

Now does that mean that the Reds would not be in contention today? Absolutely not. But I wouldn't be so quick to ignore and laugh at Rolen's influence either.

Yes, I know you are laughing at the post you quoted and the absurbity of your response, but you also asked, "Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen?". To which I would say, "to some extent, yes he is".

dougdirt
12-12-2012, 11:15 PM
Yes, I know you are laughing at the post you quoted and the absurbity of your response, but you also asked, "Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen?". To which I would say, "to some extent, yes he is".

I just don't buy it, even if Votto said it. Has nothing to do with the trade or how I feel about it. Has everything to do with how I feel about "clubhouse" changing the skillsets of baseball players.

Patrick Bateman
12-12-2012, 11:29 PM
I just don't buy it, even if Votto said it. Has nothing to do with the trade or how I feel about it. Has everything to do with how I feel about "clubhouse" changing the skillsets of baseball players.

Has nothing to do with the actual skillset.

Could very well have an effect on the use of skillset.

Lots of talented baseball players who never did a damn thing.

I don't know the effect of what Rolen did, but I'm open to the idea that the effect is more than we are capable of illustrating. There's a lot about baseball we will never be able to prove. I posit that the effect that Rolen had on the Reds is one of them.

757690
12-13-2012, 01:29 AM
Really? No way? So all of our players are all of a sudden this good because of what Scott Rolen told them along the way? Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen? Jay Bruce is the same way? Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Aroldis Chapman and Mat Latos are only as good as they are because of the magical words of Scott Rolen? :laugh:

That's exactly what I am saying.

2009 was the year Votto had his panic attacks. There was real concern if he would ever be able to handle being a major league player. I honestly believe that had Rolen not been acquired, Votto would likely not have been able to handle it, and continue to suffer his panic attacks, and not be able to continue playing at the level we are used to. Votto's recent quotes about Rolen's influence on him only provide further evidence of this.

Jay Bruce was having his worst year ever as a baseball player. There were doubts if he could put it all together, and concerns that he could crash and burn altogether. Maybe he would have put it together without Rolen, but again I am convinced that Rolen helped Bruce immensely in his effort to mature into an All-Star.

Brandon Phillips' stats have stayed rather constant, but before Rolen, the press hated to deal with him, and he had numerous incidents on and off the field which demonstrated a lack of maturity. He had overcome all of that and is currently a media and fan darling. It's silly to dismiss Rolen's role in this.

But more importantly, on a bigger grander scale, Rolen brought a winning , confident culture to the club. One would have to be blind not to have noticed it.

Maybe none of this was Rolen, maybe it was Logan Ondrusek who came to the Reds around the same time, or maybe it was Jim Kelch or a new batboy. But we have no evidence it was any of them, yet plenty of evidence it was Rolen. And that was before the recent Votto interview.

WVRedsFan
12-13-2012, 01:32 AM
Rolen. That's when we turned the corner, but I like all of them. Hail Walt.

WVRedsFan
12-13-2012, 01:47 AM
For so long after Bowden left (and I shudder as I say this), and maybe before, we tended to take players from the trash bin. A Majewski and Bray here and a (insert name) there, but no one of any significance. All of a sudden, along came Rolen, Choo, and Ludwick. Add to that Marshall, Madsen (good idea), Broxton and the footfalls, but solid choices. No more fodder. Great baseball judgment and performance. I'm all in. now if we can forget valdez's last year, and Cairo in 2012, as well as some others, the record is clear.

Tom Servo
12-13-2012, 03:01 AM
For so long after Bowden left (and I shudder as I say this), and maybe before, we tended to take players from the trash bin. A Majewski and Bray here and a (insert name) there, but no one of any significance. All of a sudden, along came Rolen, Choo, and Ludwick. Add to that Marshall, Madsen (good idea), Broxton and the footfalls, but solid choices. No more fodder. Great baseball judgment and performance. I'm all in. now if we can forget valdez's last year, and Cairo in 2012, as well as some others, the record is clear.
You're always going to have some fodder. The difference is that Walt also makes moves to obtain legitimate talent, while Bowden/O'Brien/Krivsky were more focused on trying to strike gold rummaging through the fodder.

RedsBaron
12-13-2012, 07:09 AM
I was torn between voting for the acquisition of Latos and the acquisition of Chapman. I finally voted for neither.
I voted for the acquisition of Rolen. My reasoning was that I would have made the deal for Latos if I had been the Reds GM and I would have signed Chapman if my owner turned loose the necessary cash, but I would not have traded for Rolen.
I thought Rolen had nothing left at the time Walt acquired him and that the move made little sense, because the Reds will still several players away from contention.
I was wrong.
I like having a GM who is smarter and more knowledgable than I am. :thumbup:

cumberlandreds
12-13-2012, 07:45 AM
I voted Rolen. At the time I didn't think much of it. But it proved to be the move that made this organization relevant again.
The Chapman signing proved to me that this organization was serious about being a contender. It shocked me when he was signed. I never thought the Reds would even be in the conversation for him.

vaticanplum
12-13-2012, 09:17 AM
That's exactly what I am saying.

2009 was the year Votto had his panic attacks. There was real concern if he would ever be able to handle being a major league player. I honestly believe that had Rolen not been acquired, Votto would likely not have been able to handle it, and continue to suffer his panic attacks, and not be able to continue playing at the level we are used to. Votto's recent quotes about Rolen's influence on him only provide further evidence of this.

Jay Bruce was having his worst year ever as a baseball player. There were doubts if he could put it all together, and concerns that he could crash and burn altogether. Maybe he would have put it together without Rolen, but again I am convinced that Rolen helped Bruce immensely in his effort to mature into an All-Star.

Brandon Phillips' stats have stayed rather constant, but before Rolen, the press hated to deal with him, and he had numerous incidents on and off the field which demonstrated a lack of maturity. He had overcome all of that and is currently a media and fan darling. It's silly to dismiss Rolen's role in this.

But more importantly, on a bigger grander scale, Rolen brought a winning , confident culture to the club. One would have to be blind not to have noticed it.

Maybe none of this was Rolen, maybe it was Logan Ondrusek who came to the Reds around the same time, or maybe it was Jim Kelch or a new batboy. But we have no evidence it was any of them, yet plenty of evidence it was Rolen. And that was before the recent Votto interview.

I do not think Scott Rolen stopped Joey Votto's panic attacks. My guess is Votto was dealing with a lot of stuff, in the wake of his father's death and who knows what else, and my impression is that he was clear-headed enough to find ways to deal with it professionally and on his own, something that's not always easy for athletes, who are encouraged to show no sign of "weakness".

That's not to minimize the Rolen effect. I love him too, and I agree that things like Phillips's handling of the media absolutely smacks of his influence. But panic attacks and depression are not the kind of thing that are cured by a strong clubhouse presence. Joey Votto is today's Joey Votto because he is tough and had the courage to deal with his stuff instead of bury it. Maybe the fancy coffee helped too.

757690
12-13-2012, 09:35 AM
I do not think Scott Rolen stopped Joey Votto's panic attacks. My guess is Votto was dealing with a lot of stuff, in the wake of his father's death and who knows what else, and my impression is that he was clear-headed enough to find ways to deal with it professionally and on his own, something that's not always easy for athletes, who are encouraged to show no sign of "weakness".

That's not to minimize the Rolen effect. I love him too, and I agree that things like Phillips's handling of the media absolutely smacks of his influence. But panic attacks and depression are not the kind of thing that are cured by a strong clubhouse presence. Joey Votto is today's Joey Votto because he is tough and had the courage to deal with his stuff instead of bury it. Maybe the fancy coffee helped too.

Good point and I agree. I was wrong to suggest that Rolen had any influence on Votto's panic attacks. In fact, I'm guessing Votto still suffers from them, as it is very rare for someone who suffers for them to ever stop suffering from them. And I am speaking from personal experience.

I should have said that Rolen likely has helped Votto deal with his panic attacks, and not let them affect him on the field. Thanks for the correction.

REDREAD
12-13-2012, 10:06 AM
I picked Chapman, but it was a difficult choice. Was considering Rolen and Latos too. At the end of this season Choo might be everyone's choice :)

This is like asking someone to pick their favorite Victoria's Secret model.. so many good choices.. Also, the poll doesn't even include Ludwick, which was a good move.

mattfeet
12-13-2012, 10:09 AM
Im sorta bummed Jim Edmonds isn't an option. :lol:

SirFelixCat
12-13-2012, 10:37 AM
Scott Rolen transformed the culture of the organization. He gave the young talent an example, every day/night, of how a Hall of Famer prepares, plays, and carries himself as a ballplayer.

By far my favorite deal Walt has made.

This, but also loved the Latos and Choo deals.

RedsBaron
12-13-2012, 03:06 PM
This is like asking someone to pick their favorite Victoria's Secret model..

Can Adriana Lima pitch?

kbrake
12-13-2012, 03:36 PM
Chapman was unforgettable for me. First time I really thought the organization was getting serious.

dougdirt
12-13-2012, 03:36 PM
Can Adriana Lima pitch?

Kate Upton can do whatever she wants.

bucksfan2
12-13-2012, 03:53 PM
Rolen. It was a sea change in the way the organization was run. It was Walt's first move to put his stamp on the organization. Just from hearing some reports I think Rolen was very instrumental in Votto's development and ultimately Votto's decision to sign a long term deal in Cincy.

I think the Latos move may have the most positive impact on the club going forward. And the Choo move signals that not only do the Reds have a nice club, they have a club looking at the playoffs as the minimum for this season.

AtomicDumpling
12-13-2012, 04:13 PM
Really? No way? So all of our players are all of a sudden this good because of what Scott Rolen told them along the way? Joey Votto is Joey Votto because of Scott Rolen? Jay Bruce is the same way? Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto, Aroldis Chapman and Mat Latos are only as good as they are because of the magical words of Scott Rolen? :laugh:

Yeah I think it is a real stretch to claim that Scott Rolen had much if anything to do with making all those guys into star players. Scott Rolen is not Yoda. If his leadership was so magical why didn't his Blue Jay's teammates respond in a similar way? Why was 2011 such a bad season for the Reds with Yoda right there providing his leadership?

Scott Rolen had the good fortune of arriving in Cincinnati at the exact moment when a big crew of highly talented young players were breaking onto the scene, which confused some people into thinking that Rolen was the reason for those players' success. Some fans seem unable to distinguish the real cause and effect of the Reds' ascent into an upper echelon team. Rolen came to the right place at the right time. Considering the Reds paid him $27 million while he spent long stretches unable to play due to old age and really didn't play all that well when he was on the field, it was left to Rolen's excellent leadership to keep his acquisition from being a bust. The Latos and Chapman deals have been light-years more impactful on the team's success than the Rolen deal.

_Sir_Charles_
12-13-2012, 05:06 PM
Kate Upton can do whatever she wants.

So, you're saying it's fine with you if she wants to do the Doug(ie)? :O)

REDREAD
12-13-2012, 05:20 PM
Can Adriana Lima pitch?

Not really worried if she can or not :)

dougdirt
12-13-2012, 07:51 PM
So, you're saying it's fine with you if she wants to do the Doug(ie)? :O)

Something to this extent.

lollipopcurve
12-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Chapman.

vaticanplum
12-13-2012, 09:29 PM
Good point and I agree. I was wrong to suggest that Rolen had any influence on Votto's panic attacks. In fact, I'm guessing Votto still suffers from them, as it is very rare for someone who suffers for them to ever stop suffering from them. And I am speaking from personal experience.

I should have said that Rolen likely has helped Votto deal with his panic attacks, and not let them affect him on the field. Thanks for the correction.

I feel like I'm always yelling at you and you're always supernice about it. I'm not doing it on purpose, I swear.

757690
12-14-2012, 12:35 AM
I feel like I'm always yelling at you and you're always supernice about it. I'm not doing it on purpose, I swear.

I'm used to being yelled at by women and having to be nice about it ;)

Just kidding, to be honest, I never thought you were yelling at me until you just brought it up, I guess because you always bring up good points.

Wonderful Monds
12-14-2012, 02:05 AM
Yeah I think it is a real stretch to claim that Scott Rolen had much if anything to do with making all those guys into star players. Scott Rolen is not Yoda. If his leadership was so magical why didn't his Blue Jay's teammates respond in a similar way? Why was 2011 such a bad season for the Reds with Yoda right there providing his leadership?

Scott Rolen had the good fortune of arriving in Cincinnati at the exact moment when a big crew of highly talented young players were breaking onto the scene, which confused some people into thinking that Rolen was the reason for those players' success. Some fans seem unable to distinguish the real cause and effect of the Reds' ascent into an upper echelon team. Rolen came to the right place at the right time. Considering the Reds paid him $27 million while he spent long stretches unable to play due to old age and really didn't play all that well when he was on the field, it was left to Rolen's excellent leadership to keep his acquisition from being a bust. The Latos and Chapman deals have been light-years more impactful on the team's success than the Rolen deal.

Yeah! Why would you believe that silly garbage, regardless of the fact that the players themselves made the same claims?!

dougdirt
12-14-2012, 03:43 AM
Yeah! Why would you believe that silly garbage, regardless of the fact that the players themselves made the same claims?!

It is a good question. Scouts all over baseball thought very highly of a whole lot of the linchpins of our team before Scott Rolen ever said a single word to them. Was it because those guys were super talented, or because the scouts knew that one day Scott Rolen would be their teammate? Johnny Cueto threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Joey Votto hit the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Mat Latos threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Brandon Phillips was Brandon Phillips before Scott Rolen came here. Did Homer Bailey figure something out because of Scott Rolen? Did Jay Bruce? Did Arroyo finally figure out what Scott Rolen was trying to tell him in 2012 that made his peripherals improve?

These guys can believe a whole lot of what they want to. That doesn't make it so. This team is where they are because there is a whole lot of really, really talented players on it. They were going to be that talented with or without Scott Rolens words or example.

My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

Degenerate39
12-14-2012, 09:50 AM
1. Chap
2. Latos
3. Rolen
4. Choo

bucksfan2
12-14-2012, 09:50 AM
It is a good question. Scouts all over baseball thought very highly of a whole lot of the linchpins of our team before Scott Rolen ever said a single word to them. Was it because those guys were super talented, or because the scouts knew that one day Scott Rolen would be their teammate? Johnny Cueto threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Joey Votto hit the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Mat Latos threw the ball really well before Scott Rolen came here. Brandon Phillips was Brandon Phillips before Scott Rolen came here. Did Homer Bailey figure something out because of Scott Rolen? Did Jay Bruce? Did Arroyo finally figure out what Scott Rolen was trying to tell him in 2012 that made his peripherals improve?

These guys can believe a whole lot of what they want to. That doesn't make it so. This team is where they are because there is a whole lot of really, really talented players on it. They were going to be that talented with or without Scott Rolens words or example.

My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

If it were as simple as having 5 tools then Jim Bowden would be a genius.

REDREAD
12-14-2012, 09:59 AM
My question is, what on Earth would make you believe that something Scott Rolen said or did changed the outcome of so many different players, all of who were incredibly highly thought of from a young age?

There's no way to prove the amount of influence the Rolen had or did not have.
I will concede that.
However, the team was transformed very similiarly to when Pete came over as a manager in the 80's. All the sudden people started playing better.

A lot of the older people here have worked at may different places.
Some places suck the soul out of you. Lots of bad attitudes, lack of team work,etc. Other places have work environment that just naturally lend themselves to greater productivity. People like working there, and yes, they do try harder.

I've seen it outside of basebal where the right culture change leads to everyone perfroming better. It's hard to do, but not impossible. I believe it can happen on a baseball team too. I'm not going to assign a percentage that I think Rolen is responsible for. You're right, the Reds had a lot of talent on that team and we'll never know for sure. But when the players themselves say that Rolen made a difference, that carries a lot of weight for me. It's just like our boring jobs.. Sometimes a new boss or a transfer to another group makes a big change in our attitude and productivity, even though it's the same person.

Johnny Footstool
12-14-2012, 11:10 AM
The Rolen deal was a great starter, but it wasn't an extremely bold more. At the time, it looked and felt like the Reds were just adding a past-his-prime veteran, as they and many other teams had done in the past.

The Chapman deal blew apart that perception. It announced that the Reds weren't going to be just another small-market AAAA team, feeding talent to the big money clubs and surviving on leftovers. It announced that the Reds were going to compete, and compete hard. It was brash and risky, and it made the baseball world take notice.

Johnny Footstool
12-14-2012, 11:15 AM
Yeah I think it is a real stretch to claim that Scott Rolen had much if anything to do with making all those guys into star players. Scott Rolen is not Yoda. If his leadership was so magical why didn't his Blue Jay's teammates respond in a similar way? Why was 2011 such a bad season for the Reds with Yoda right there providing his leadership?

Scott Rolen had the good fortune of arriving in Cincinnati at the exact moment when a big crew of highly talented young players were breaking onto the scene, which confused some people into thinking that Rolen was the reason for those players' success. Some fans seem unable to distinguish the real cause and effect of the Reds' ascent into an upper echelon team. Rolen came to the right place at the right time. Considering the Reds paid him $27 million while he spent long stretches unable to play due to old age and really didn't play all that well when he was on the field, it was left to Rolen's excellent leadership to keep his acquisition from being a bust. The Latos and Chapman deals have been light-years more impactful on the team's success than the Rolen deal.

I agree with this line of thinking. It irritates me when people try to give undue credit to "leadership" (Rolen, Dusty) when the real credit should go to the players who actually performed on the field.

Roy Tucker
12-14-2012, 12:00 PM
I think the over-arching point here is that Walt has made some darn fine moves.

kaldaniels
12-14-2012, 12:09 PM
It's like the whole psychological aspect of athletic performance is being overlooked by many on here.

When it is suggested by some on here that Votto may have improved as a player due to Rolen's influence, we get the old strawman argument "Well I guess it was Scott and his magic beans that turned Votto,Bruce,Cueto,Latos,et al. into the outstanding players that they are". I think to come up with that retort is missing the boat.

No one here knows to what extent Rolen helped. But when a standup guy like Votto says Rolen set the example and changed the path of his career, who are we to laugh and scoff at that? I'm not making any crazy proclamations that Rolen is the reason the Reds made the playoffs 2 of the past 3 years, but I do think he has had a positive influence on our guys in the ol' noggin department. Certainly some room for some discussion and different points of view as to what extent, but as far as I'm concerned there's no room to ridicule the idea of it.

RichRed
12-14-2012, 01:15 PM
I was leery of the Rolen trade because of his age, though I don't remember being opposed to it.

I had no idea who Aroldis Chapman even was until I started reading about him on here around the time of the signing, then I was able to appreciate what a good move that was later.

I thought the Marshall trade was pretty good but I generally don't get too excited about trades for relief pitchers.

The Latos deal was extremely bold and exciting, but also made me nervous for the amount of talent that was given up. I realize that Grandal, Alonso, etc., were blocked on the Reds, but it made me a little uneasy anyway.

The trade for Choo, on the other hand, made me giddy the second I heard about it. It's like that satisfying feeling you get when you slide that last puzzle piece into place or when you "swish" a 3-pointer in basketball. I just thought it was the perfect combination of filling a need, not giving up any pitching, with that dash of Jocketty's patented cold-blooded boldness. Plus, the thought of high OBP in front of Votto makes me tingly.

So while it can certainly be argued that it wasn't the BEST move Jocketty's made, the trade for Choo is my favorite.

Rojo
12-14-2012, 02:34 PM
Hannahan signing, hanns down.

He ought to play with his back to the infield, just to keep it fair.

wheels
12-14-2012, 04:17 PM
I was leery of the Rolen trade because of his age, though I don't remember being opposed to it.

I had no idea who Aroldis Chapman even was until I started reading about him on here around the time of the signing, then I was able to appreciate what a good move that was later.

I thought the Marshall trade was pretty good but I generally don't get too excited about trades for relief pitchers.

The Latos deal was extremely bold and exciting, but also made me nervous for the amount of talent that was given up. I realize that Grandal, Alonso, etc., were blocked on the Reds, but it made me a little uneasy anyway.

The trade for Choo, on the other hand, made me giddy the second I heard about it. It's like that satisfying feeling you get when you slide that last puzzle piece into place or when you "swish" a 3-pointer in basketball. I just thought it was the perfect combination of filling a need, not giving up any pitching, with that dash of Jocketty's patented cold-blooded boldness. Plus, the thought of high OBP in front of Votto makes me tingly.

So while it can certainly be argued that it wasn't the BEST move Jocketty's made, the trade for Choo is my favorite.

That's my feeling almost to a tee.

I'd also like to add that most of the time that last deal that puts a team over the top proves to be the most elusive. I could end up being wrong, but I firmly believe this move cements the club for 2013.

The Choo trade proves beyond any doubt in my mind that Walt "gets it". For over a decade, I could never say that about a Reds GM.

Finally, the finishing touch has been applied, and the roster is wonderfully balanced. That's why it's my favortie Walt Jocketty move.

TheBurn
12-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Chap followed closely by Latos.