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Zimmers
12-26-2012, 05:10 PM
So a few weeks ago I had a long conversation with a current Big Leaguer who just came back from the States after the season ended for them in much the same way as it did for the Reds. We talked about personal stuff as we have many mutual friends and then then it turned to baseball as it was always gonna happen.

Anyways the insight he gave at times was brilliant and also jaw dropping as I felt like to Jose Canseco at times. This guy has bounced around from the majors after a few arm injuries in his career and even resurrected his career overseas to get a shot again.

The disturbing part of the convo was when I asked if Melky Cabera was going to get treated any differently now that he got caught cheating. The response I got was a flat out NO. The player said he estimates 80% are doing what he does and that he just had some bad luck. He says you literally you have to be tested within 24 hours to be caught doing what he did and it's so easy not to get caught because of this.

Well I still think he is great guy but definently believe he is cheating after speaking with him even tho he never said. I know it's on guys opinion but he made a very strong case about it and if it's as easy as he says then there is still a problem in baseball.

By the way he says Johnny Gomes is as awesome I thought :laugh:

GotHeeeeem
12-26-2012, 05:42 PM
Well the Giants players did not want him back........

Helms1
12-26-2012, 06:43 PM
PEDs do not improve maximum performance much. They do improve and enhance tissue recupertation from strain, fatigue and injury. It is a double edged sword but to me is more of a issue of players either trying to get back to their level of performance after injury (like your friend I think) or stay at that level for as many games as they can through the season so they can stay where they are. If it is cheating, so be it, but it is not what most people think when we condemn these people who are caught. They are cheating father time and repetitive injury more than anything else.

Red Raindog
12-26-2012, 07:02 PM
Not too hard to figure out who the player is --- not many from Australia that played overseas + the Show + missed time with injuries

not that anyone asked but I pick Travis Jarrod Blackley

Zimmers
12-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Oh I agree it is not doing to much to enhance performance and it's to help guys bounce back faster and all that. The point of the matter is more so it is still classified as cheating no matter how you spin it. In saying that I don't believe for one second that 80% of the Bigs is tainted with Blood doping but more the issue that there is still some form of cheating going on. I know this one is very hard to snuff out the moment and if you are in the show you are always most likely looking for a edge. I just thought it was a interesting perspective and disturbing perspective in regards to the professional athlete lives

The DARK
12-26-2012, 08:37 PM
Personally, I wish Bud Selig would take a harder line on this. Cycling has fallen by the wayside as a sport due the massive proliferation of doping, and he's setting an unfortunate precedent by allowing the likes of Mark McGuire on other steroid users to get hall of fame consideration. The problem isn't just going to go away on it's own now that it's out in the open. There needs to be real monetary incentive to not use.

bigredmechanism
12-26-2012, 08:45 PM
Not too hard to figure out who the player is --- not many from Australia that played overseas + the Show + missed time with injuries

not that anyone asked but I pick Travis Jarrod Blackley

Isn't Balfour from Oz as well, and played for the A's last year? That's who I assumed, but Blackley is as good of a guess.

webbbj
12-26-2012, 09:38 PM
I dont see this being a big deal at all.

Zimmers
12-26-2012, 09:52 PM
I am from a small town in Ohio so really it could be anyone. I could be home at the moment or here it really doesn't matter. It's the off season, Chrissy break and there isn't much news. Thought it would be a decent topic to discuss and different people's thoughts on what may or may not be happening still around the Bigs. Talk about it, don't talk about it just trying to have some type of discussion on here besides same old same old

Red Raindog
12-26-2012, 10:21 PM
Isn't Balfour from Oz as well, and played for the A's last year? That's who I assumed, but Blackley is as good of a guess.

I based it on the fact that Blackley played for the Giants & A's in addition to a Korean team and an Aussie team --- + I'm not aware of Balfour playing anywhere but the USA

not a huge deal anyway --- I don't buy the 80% number tossed out

webbbj
12-27-2012, 09:39 AM
I think the 80% is very reasonable and I think anyone is naive if they honestly think players arent doing something to gain an edge.

I'd be in favor of MLB approving testosterone or HGH. I want to see the players at their highest level all the time. If that prevents them from being sluggish on the field I approve.

ol'Sparky
12-27-2012, 10:09 AM
http://gossipextra.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/jose-canseco-steroids.jpg

I'm jose canseco

TSJ55
12-27-2012, 12:00 PM
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'.

smixsell
12-27-2012, 12:35 PM
PEDs do not improve maximum performance much. They do improve and enhance tissue recupertation from strain, fatigue and injury. It is a double edged sword but to me is more of a issue of players either trying to get back to their level of performance after injury (like your friend I think) or stay at that level for as many games as they can through the season so they can stay where they are. If it is cheating, so be it, but it is not what most people think when we condemn these people who are caught. They are cheating father time and repetitive injury more than anything else.

:eek: You could not be more wrong.

bigredmechanism
12-27-2012, 01:36 PM
:eek: You could not be more wrong.

Agreed.

Barry Bonds' maximum performance in the mid 90s:

46 hr .458/.677/1.136 at 28 years old for a 206 OPS+.

Barry Bonds' maximum performance in the 00s:

73 hr .515/.863/1.379 at 36 years old for a 259 OPS+.

Helms1
12-27-2012, 01:55 PM
So why is Ivan Drago not starting in left field?

The drugs that truly enhance performance are not really relevant because they are very easy to detect and long lasting in the tissue. You can look back to Bonds and Jose, and dream of Ivan batting cleanup, but that is not the state of PEDs right now.

smixsell
12-27-2012, 04:53 PM
So why is Ivan Drago not starting in left field?

The drugs that truly enhance performance are not really relevant because they are very easy to detect and long lasting in the tissue. You can look back to Bonds and Jose, and dream of Ivan batting cleanup, but that is not the state of PEDs right now.

Right..........and Melky Cabrera really is a .350-.360 hitter, the PEDs just helped him fight age and injuries. :laugh:

Helms1
12-27-2012, 05:20 PM
Right..........and Melky Cabrera really is a .350-.360 hitter, the PEDs just helped him fight age and injuries. :laugh:

Believe what you want. Melky got IDed. Wonder why?

TSJ55
12-27-2012, 05:23 PM
Believe what you want. Melky got IDed. Wonder why?

So you're saying all the video game numbers put up while MLB was basically encouraging PEDs during the so call "steriod era" are always possible if only players could stay healthy?

Helms1
12-27-2012, 05:44 PM
So you're saying all the video game numbers put up while MLB was basically encouraging PEDs during the so call "steriod era" are always possible if only players could stay healthy?

Think of it this way, the steroids of the 90s and 2000s have been replaced to a large extent due to testing. Those steroids led to significant performance enhancement due to multiple effects. IF you want to try them now you may be meeting frequently with Bud.

TSJ55
12-27-2012, 06:24 PM
Think of it this way, the steroids of the 90s and 2000s have been replaced to a large extent due to testing. Those steroids led to significant performance enhancement due to multiple effects. IF you want to try them now you may be meeting frequently with Bud.

So you're saying the PEDs from 90s and 2000s actually did improve maximum performance but today's PEDs only help a player avoid injury and recover more quickly?

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing. Just trying to get a handle on what your point is. Do you consider the Platelet Rich Plasma treatment a PED then? Should the PEDs that you claim players are using now be legal since they won't enhance maximum performance?

Redsrule5
12-27-2012, 06:49 PM
Sad,but I don't think that PEDs are only to blame.Roger Maris hit 61 homers in 1961,a record that stood for 37 years.Along comes 1998 when 3 guys all of a sudden are challenging this record.No one has come close since.I'm not much of a "conspiracy theorist", but I just have to think that MLB was involved in this.If it were only PEDs,this record would be challenged every other year.Just my opinion....

Helms1
12-27-2012, 07:39 PM
So you're saying the PEDs from 90s and 2000s actually did improve maximum performance but today's PEDs only help a player avoid injury and recover more quickly?

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing. Just trying to get a handle on what your point is. Do you consider the Platelet Rich Plasma treatment a PED then? Should the PEDs that you claim players are using now be legal since they won't enhance maximum performance?

Never claimed different. My statement was present tense, I did not clarify today vs the past. Not a writer I suppose. Performance Enhancing Drugs suggests just that, you are correct. I thought we were talking about PEDs that are actually in use? Sorry. Most being used do not appear to increase maximal muscle and physical performance much. If not tested and penalized Ivan Drago would be at every position. PRP is self transfusion of normal blood components. I would not call that a performance enhancing drug. I would call it a recovery enhancing treatment. No, I do not consider PRP to be a PED. Adderall, Viagra, Epogen, HgH, anabolic steroids, diuretics. Yeah, PEDS. Are they legal? Most are and apporved for use, just not as a PED. Depends on baseball I suppose. Now, I see a lot of men with low testerone that I treat. When you elevate the hormone level to the normal range you improve muscle (even Russell) to better function, in essence what it should be without the deficiency. Is that a PED? I think not if monitored and given by a professional. So as with all things, there is so much gray it's hard to say and the players will always push the envelope. I do not treat players btw. How about Toradol? Great NSAID, highly effective, allows you to play with pretty bad pain, but is only approved for 5 days? High risk drug but does not effect performance or mental state, just blocks pain. Allowable for say Johnny Cueto in the NCLS?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/14/sports/wide-use-of-painkiller-toradol-before-games-raises-concerns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

webbbj
12-27-2012, 10:41 PM
Sad,but I don't think that PEDs are only to blame.Roger Maris hit 61 homers in 1961,a record that stood for 37 years.Along comes 1998 when 3 guys all of a sudden are challenging this record.No one has come close since.I'm not much of a "conspiracy theorist", but I just have to think that MLB was involved in this.If it were only PEDs,this record would be challenged every other year.Just my opinion....

Yeah they did. They knew it was going on. They didnt test for the stuff and now guys like Bonds, Clemens, Mcgwire, Sosa, etc unrightfully being left out of the HOF b/c baseball chose not to police its sport and allows sports writers to be decision makers on their HOF credentials.

TSJ55
12-28-2012, 06:17 AM
PRP is self transfusion of normal blood components. I would not call that a performance enhancing drug. I would call it a recovery enhancing treatment. No, I do not consider PRP to be a PED.



PEDs do not improve maximum performance much. They do improve and enhance tissue recupertation from strain, fatigue and injury.

Ok...so where is the difference above (bold added by me) and where do you draw the line?

Helms1
12-28-2012, 08:31 AM
Ok...so where is the difference above (bold added by me) and where do you draw the line?

Hmmm. Is someone at MLB offering a consulting fee for definitions?;) Draw the line? I suppose above my pay scale, but the use of say Hgh for tissue regeneration seems to fall in the PED catergory and the auto transfusion of normal blood products say in the an injured knee for a key player seems to be more like a surgical procedure than a drug. I would say draw the line where the consensus says it should be drawn. I would not allow anabolic steroids or use of hormonal therapy if not indicated by a defined deficiency. I would not allow drugs that are not being used for approved conditions. I would not have a problem with the occasional use of Toradol if the medical team deemed it no risk for long term damage to mask the pain. So yes to PRP, yes to nsaids and steroidal joint/ligament injections when supervised, yes to standard surgical procedures, no to most other stuff.

Tuff Nut
12-28-2012, 09:09 AM
Right..........and Melky Cabrera really is a .350-.360 hitter, the PEDs just helped him fight age and injuries. :laugh:
The PEDs didn't hit the ball.......if the below average, non hitting prospect took them, would he magically be able to hit the ball?

TSJ55
12-28-2012, 10:27 AM
Hmmm. Is someone at MLB offering a consulting fee for definitions?;) .
Definitions are as subjective as anything else so you may be onto something provided your definition suits MLBs needs (read: bottom line)


Draw the line? I suppose above my pay scale, but the use of say Hgh for tissue regeneration seems to fall in the PED catergory and the auto transfusion of normal blood products say in the an injured knee for a key player seems to be more like a surgical procedure than a drug.
Thanks. This is what I was driving at. Mostly anyway. Your use of the word "normal" and "seems" is still pretty vague. Technically, HGH is natural. Some might even say "normal".


I would say draw the line where the consensus says it should be drawn.
Who's consensus?


I would not allow anabolic steroids or use of hormonal therapy if not indicated by a defined deficiency. I would not allow drugs that are not being used for approved conditions. I would not have a problem with the occasional use of Toradol if the medical team deemed it no risk for long term damage to mask the pain. So yes to PRP, yes to nsaids and steroidal joint/ligament injections when supervised, yes to standard surgical procedures, no to most other stuff.

Thanks for the clarification of your opinion and education on a few substances.:thumbup:

TSJ55
12-28-2012, 10:36 AM
The PEDs didn't hit the ball.......if the below average, non hitting prospect took them, would he magically be able to hit the ball?

This is one of the weakest points commonly heard on the subject. All skill being equal, a player who is bigger, faster, stronger will turn what would have been a sawed off bloop to the SS to a dying quail over his head. What would have been a long out to get over the wall. What would have been a single into a double. In the field they get to balls they wouldn't have ordinarily gotten to and make throws they wouldn't have been able to ordinarily make.

Helms1
12-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Definitions are as subjective as anything else so you may be onto something provided your definition suits MLBs needs (read: bottom line)


Thanks. This is what I was driving at. Mostly anyway. Your use of the word "normal" and "seems" is still pretty vague. Technically, HGH is natural. Some might even say "normal".


Who's consensus?



Thanks for the clarification of your opinion and education on a few substances.:thumbup:

Baseball's consensus, not mine. Anabolic steroids are natural also. Depends on whether they are being administered to replace a deficiency or dosed at what is usually increased levels to affect a PED effect. (did I do that right?)

Tuff Nut
12-29-2012, 08:30 PM
This is one of the weakest points commonly heard on the subject. All skill being equal, a player who is bigger, faster, stronger will turn what would have been a sawed off bloop to the SS to a dying quail over his head. What would have been a long out to get over the wall. What would have been a single into a double. In the field they get to balls they wouldn't have ordinarily gotten to and make throws they wouldn't have been able to ordinarily make. Reguardless of what the ball will do, said player still has to make contact....If he hits 5 balls 500 ft but strikesout 20 times in between each HR......I'll take the outs.

Zimmers
12-29-2012, 08:59 PM
Regardless if it helps the layer perform better or not it's still illegal! Is there a way for baseball to stop this or is this one that baseball will just stick their head in the sand? Do I believe the 80% number? NO. Do I believe that it is rampant thru baseball? Absolutely! It disturbs me that the game may or may not be compromised and that anytime a guy has a resurgence or comes back from injury quickly I am gonna wonder if he is dirty! That bugs the hell out of me :thumbdown:

webbbj
12-29-2012, 10:18 PM
Regardless if it helps the layer perform better or not it's still illegal! Is there a way for baseball to stop this or is this one that baseball will just stick their head in the sand? Do I believe the 80% number? NO. Do I believe that it is rampant thru baseball? Absolutely! It disturbs me that the game may or may not be compromised and that anytime a guy has a resurgence or comes back from injury quickly I am gonna wonder if he is dirty! That bugs the hell out of me :thumbdown:

Why? I would think a fan of the game would want to see the best players on the field. I would think baseball would too. Kind of baffling MLB bans HGH or testosterone. Its beneficial for the players and keeps them at peak performance year round. I support the use of HGH fully and you should too.

texasdave
12-30-2012, 12:09 AM
Why? I would think a fan of the game would want to see the best players on the field. I would think baseball would too. Kind of baffling MLB bans HGH or testosterone. Its beneficial for the players and keeps them at peak performance year round. I support the use of HGH fully and you should too.

I could not agree less. I think they should kick the cheating dogs out of the game.

webbbj
12-30-2012, 09:11 AM
I could not agree less. I think they should kick the cheating dogs out of the game.

its only cheating b/c MLB decided they wanted to make it that way. If they allowed HGH it wouldnt be cheating.

HGH is not like steroids where there are many negative long term side affects that go along w/ the short term benefits. From everything Ive learned HGH is perfectly okay from a health stand point.

MoneyInTheBank
12-30-2012, 09:58 AM
its only cheating b/c MLB decided they wanted to make it that way. If they allowed HGH it wouldnt be cheating.

HGH is not like steroids where there are many negative long term side affects that go along w/ the short term benefits. From everything Ive learned HGH is perfectly okay from a health stand point.

HGH appears to be perfectly okay in those who are naturally deficient, such as older folks who have slowed/stopped natural production. However, to inject your body with excess GH can be extremely dangerous and unfortunately there has not been a test to detect it long enough to study the long term effects of it's use/abuse.

TSJ55
12-30-2012, 10:25 AM
Reguardless of what the ball will do, said player still has to make contact....If he hits 5 balls 500 ft but strikesout 20 times in between each HR......I'll take the outs.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

ol'Sparky
12-30-2012, 11:26 AM
http://www.synergy-athletics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/big_muscles.jpg

this is what HGH will do for you !!

The_Mudshark
12-31-2012, 10:17 AM
Yeah they did. They knew it was going on. They didnt test for the stuff and now guys like Bonds, Clemens, Mcgwire, Sosa, etc unrightfully being left out of the HOF b/c baseball chose not to police its sport and allows sports writers to be decision makers on their HOF credentials.

+1

PadsFS
12-31-2012, 11:52 AM
Sad,but I don't think that PEDs are only to blame.Roger Maris hit 61 homers in 1961,a record that stood for 37 years.Along comes 1998 when 3 guys all of a sudden are challenging this record.No one has come close since.I'm not much of a "conspiracy theorist", but I just have to think that MLB was involved in this.If it were only PEDs,this record would be challenged every other year.Just my opinion....


I think adding the expansion teams had much more to do with these power bursts than anything.

McGwire hit 12 HRs in 1998 against the D'Backs, Marlins, and Rockies, not too mention the unknown variable of taking talent away from the other teams.


Another point I'd like to make is the MLB stars get better as they age through their 30's until they begin to lose bat speed. Hank Aaron, for instance, had his best three AB/HR ratios in his late 30's, much like Bonds and McGwire.

The difference being, he only was getting 500 PA's a year, rather than 700.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/aaronha01-bat.shtml

Mays had a similar effect.

TeamSelig
12-31-2012, 01:47 PM
What if the MLB implemented a zero tolerance policy? Do you think guys would risk using PEDs if they messed up and got caught that they wouldn't be allowed in the MLB ever?

texasdave
12-31-2012, 03:00 PM
Dangers of Human Growth Hormone!
To be completely transparent, there is a need for human growth hormone injections for a specific population group. HGH has been shown to be useful in the treatment of children and adults who have significant growth hormone deficiencies. However, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists strongly warns against the use of growth hormone injections for those with overweight/obesity issues or as an anti-aging treatment.

Robert N. Butler, M.D., the noted gerontologist has also weighed in on this matter. According to Dr. Butler, “Although hormone-replacement trials have yielded some positive results (at least in the short term), it is clear that negative side effects can also occur in the form of increased risk for cancer, cardiovascular disease, and behavior changes.”

One of the main dangers of human growth hormone injections is the unregulated effect it can have on the overproduction of IGF-1 concentrations. This can lead to some very serious side effects like:

Swelling in the arms and legs
Carpal tunnel and arthritis-like symptoms
Headaches and general muscle pain
Diabetes
Abnormal growth of the bones and internal organs
High blood pressure
General bloating
Hardening of the arteries

Why should a person have to, potentially, put his health in jeopardy to compete with other players who don't mind being cheating dogs?
And whether baseball does or does not test for them is irrelevant. It is against the law. There are some FDA-approved reasons for doctors to prescribe synthetic HGH. I did not see "to become a cheating-dog baseball player" on that list.

Captain13
12-31-2012, 03:28 PM
I want to know why all the uproar over anabolic steroids, HGH, and testosterone, but nobody seems to care about amphetamines. They have been in the game for decades, they were illegal and nobody cares. Why do we care about cheaters from the "steroid era" but not from the "golden age of baseball". A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. One can't be worse than the other.

Helms1
12-31-2012, 03:50 PM
What if the MLB implemented a zero tolerance policy? Do you think guys would risk using PEDs if they messed up and got caught that they wouldn't be allowed in the MLB ever?

A few would with nothing else to lose, but not many.

Helms1
12-31-2012, 03:51 PM
Why should a person have to, potentially, put his health in jeopardy to compete with other players who don't mind being cheating dogs?
And whether baseball does or does not test for them is irrelevant. It is against the law. There are some FDA-approved reasons for doctors to prescribe synthetic HGH. I did not see "to become a cheating-dog baseball player" on that list.

Really hard for anyone to argue against this point effectively.

webbbj
12-31-2012, 03:51 PM
However, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists strongly warns against the use of growth hormone injections for those with overweight/obesity issues or as an anti-aging treatment

Elite athletes does not occur in this list I dont see the problem.

Helms1
12-31-2012, 03:53 PM
I want to know why all the uproar over anabolic steroids, HGH, and testosterone, but nobody seems to care about amphetamines. They have been in the game for decades, they were illegal and nobody cares. Why do we care about cheaters from the "steroid era" but not from the "golden age of baseball". A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. One can't be worse than the other.

I noted adderall. Also Viagra which effects pulmonary artery pressure and improves cardio-pulmonary performance. Diuretics lower pulmonary artery pressure also. Again, if not used for approved reasons they should be treated the same as any other PED, and the point is they do not work very well anyway.

MoneyInTheBank
12-31-2012, 04:55 PM
However, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists strongly warns against the use of growth hormone injections for those with overweight/obesity issues or as an anti-aging treatment

Elite athletes does not occur in this list I dont see the problem.

They would fall under the "anti-aging" portion

Zimmers
01-29-2013, 05:12 PM
Well now that this new report has come out, it seems to add weight to what I said a few months back, 50 games doesn't mean anything to the players and if you are not cheating you are not trying mentality that seems to be the rage still in MLB.