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Let's pretend Mike Lowell's health rules him out of the Red Sox's future plans, and the Sox intend to go with Kevin Youkilis at third base. Would you approve a trade of Joey Votto for Jacoby Ellsbury? I assume most would rather have Ellsbury, but I'm not sure. I'd be interested to hear some opinions.
I'd keep Votto. But thats after watching a whole season of Votto. I remember watching Votto take AB's back in May and thinking, this guy looks like he's been in the bigs for 5 years. He performed beyond my expectations this year for sure. I haven't watching but a few of Ellsbury AB's over the past year, so I'm alittle uninformed, I admit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitball
But looking and Ellsburys stat lines and general knowledge I have of him, I'm keeping Joey.
I like Votto very much, but Ellsbury would add speed, defense in center, and a lead off type hitter. For me, Votto is good but represents more of the same process that has been so unsuccessful for so long in Cincy. He is a good left handed bat, capable of some power, but is limited defensively.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaldaniels
Bob Howsam was building the Big Red Machine in a different era, but it might be time to get ahead of the curve as he did. I'd love to see the Reds improve their speed and defense. I'd love to see Encarnacion at first and a Jacoby Ellsbury type in center and batting lead off.
No way. Maybe Ellsbury and Lowrie. I'm a big Votto supporter but with Alonso and Frazier on the way, a deal that fills the SS hole and something else as well has to be considered.
I'd rather deal EdE for Lowrie straight up.
In 1 word, no.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1
V 4 Votto
No way. I think Votto established himself as an untouchable over the second half of the season. I look to Votto, Alonso, and Bruce as the long term future. They are in another category altogether, IMO, from EE and BP.
No. I think Ellsbury is a product of the Boston Hype Machine.
Ellsbury is a new Melky Cabrera. No thank you.
If he played for Kansas City you wouldn't even know about him.
Absolutely not. Ellsbury has little to no power and his OBP was only .336 this season despite a solid .280 BA. Votto is a much better player IMO.
Ellsbury had a considerable dropoff this season after 100 ABs in 2007. We have a similar player in Chris Dickerson; I hope the same thing doesn't happen to him. No, I would not trade Votto for him.
I totally agree with your 1st sentence but not so much based on his play although I think his play reflected his approach to the game. The kid will be our backbone and you don't trade that away unless of course he doesn't continue to back it up with production. He's our Pedroia or Jeter IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokieRed
OTOH I sorta disagree with everyone dropping a duece on BP and I suspect he will show up big this next season. I would trade nearly anyone, BP included for the proper piece(s) of the puzzle but to act as if he is somehow less of a player is selling him very short. All the while giving an awful lot of credit to a player (Alonso) who is more likely to eventually leave us for gr$$n$r pastures IMO.
No way. I'm not enamored with Ellsbury (agree with Mth on the Boston hype angle) and I think Votto will continue his development as a great hitter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmarilloRed
Agreed, Good call.
I'm not saying that Votto will ever be the equal of Tony Perez but he remindes me of Big Doggie because he sort of flys beneith the radar. He's quiet, unassuming and doesn't get quoted a lot (unlike some players in Cincinnati). What he does do is go to work everyday, put up solid numbers and, if he hasn't already been recognized as the guy in the lineup that you really like up there in a run-scoring opportunity, you will soon.
He's a rock. Build on him.
Rem
No way Votto is only gonna get better, Ellsbury is way overhyped!!! I would rather go after Crisp, but not at the cost of Votto!
Not even close. I'd laugh at an offer of Ellsbury for Votto straight up.
no chance
Votto's pretty clearly the more valuable player, and likely to remain so. Having said that, it might help the Reds to consider the way the Red Sox handled their CF combo situation. Depth is a good thing.
Yes it is. Especially if you have a large budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by blumj
If not you need the judgement or wisdom to pay and use Utility Players like Utility Players.
I don't have any problem moving Votto in the right deal, but this isn't it.
Even if you do have a large budget, and you can afford to overpay for utility players, if you choose to, you still need the judgement to know the difference between a utility player and a player worthy of regular playing time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Madden
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by blumj
Thats what I meant when I said you need the judgement and wisdom to pay and USE Utility Players like Utility Players.
I keep Votto and Jay Bruce too if and when his name comes up in questions such as this.
Votto and Bruce represent two home grown position players that I would like to see the Reds build their offense around for years to come.
I also believe the Reds have a diamond in the rough in Chris Dickerson and if his spring training coincides with his 2008 performance, well then, centerfield belongs to CD.
Todd Frazier is a player I'm excited to see play both shortstop and second base well enough that Brandon Phillips could bring an outstanding pitcher or position player to us for the 2010 season. My hope is that Frazier hits and fields well enough to make that happen. I'm a huge Brandon Phillips fan but we need to improve in at least three areas between now and '10.
If Dickerson doesn't earn the starting spot in CF next season, a guy I would like to see Jocketty acquire is Randy Winn to leadoff and play center and bring Bengie Molina along with him. Then get that power-hitting righty to play in left.
What would it take to make that trade with San Francisco? Or would you even make a trade such as this? Would Drew Stubbs, Ryan Freel and Devon Mesoraco do it?
Frazier's not good enough defensively to play the infield in the major leagues. He's better suited for third base or left field. The good thing is his bat is good enough to play anywhere on the diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vada Pinson Fan
I agree OBM but that's why I'm looking at 2010 for this to happen. More seasoning for Frazier in '09. Many had said Votto was a fielding liability but I haven't seen it. Same hopefully can be said for Frazier when he makes it to the Show.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Raisor
I'd do Votto for Ellsbury. I expect Votto to provide more power, but he plays a power position. I don't expect him to provide enough power to offset the defense and speed Ellsbury would provide to the centerfield position. This is obviously not the popular opinion here, but we have watched Reds lose a load of games with poor fielding, power hitting teams through the last ten years. That is a long time. I'm well past ready for a change of design. I'm ready to try pitching, speed, and defense. Even if they lose with pitching, speed, and defense, it will be a different design.
I think OBM meant MIF and no Frazier doesn't have the range to do it exclusively. Votto's issues were more tied to the nuances of playing 1st, but he clearly had the talent to be fine there. Frazier simply doesn't have the talent to be a major league MIF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vada Pinson Fan
Chris Dickerson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitball
I just don't see where trading Votto for Ellsbury makes any sense at all for the Reds. The Reds already have Chris Dickerson in CF. Dickerson is Ellsbury with more strikeouts and more power. We also have Drew Stubbs in Louisville, who basically projects as the right handed version of Ellsbury. Votto is a solid fielder at first base and a much better hitter than Ellsbury. IMO the Reds would get ripped off if they made this trade.
My fault, I meant middle infield. I think Frazier could be a fine third baseman but he's not middle infielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo
But the Reds have Dickerson, Stubbs and Heisey ready and/or in the high minors. They have speed and defense for CF coming out their ears. All those guys are probably better than Ellsbury defensively and just as fast. Ellsbury might be a better bat but CF isn't a big need area for the Reds at this time IMO and is actually an area where the Reds have some depth to deal. Don't let the last few awful years of Griffey, Freel and Patterson fool you. Those days are gone. Any deal with the Red Sox that includes Votto needs to start with Jed Lowrie and build from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitball
I'm not sure I wouldn't trade Bruce before Votto, but I wouldn't trade either one for Jacoby and probably not anything. I'd trade something for Jacoby, but I'm not sure what. I wouldn't mind the Reds picking up Melky too. He would be outstanding as a 4th outfielder.
nm
Forget trading Votto for him, isn't handing Dusty Baker a speedy CFer with a .336 OBP just a bad idea in general?